Amick on K-Mart

[kupman]

Kevin was "our best" player last season and was put on the pedestal with high expectations. But lets all understand one thing...we don't want him to be our best player. I would love to get a better player for him but trading him for the sake of trading is ignorant.

Like most people I agree that KMart can still be a good piece of the rebuilding process.

I think of him as a Rook in a chess game. Limited by their movement, the Rook is almost useless. But when added with a Queen or even another Rook, he can be deadly.

I'm hoping Evans can be the next Rook and by 2010 we can get a Queen. With Hawes and JT as Bishops. Bishops can cover each other to be dangerous as well. But I'm just wishing now.

Very nice analogy.

 

[kupman]

Expectations from when Kevin was a kid are 100% irrelevant, and are frankly thrown out there either as fluffy human interest feel good distractions, or flat out excuses. He is a 26 yr old multimillionaire in mid career at this point. Not a kid. Not a prospect. Nothing but a verteran asset that either helps or hurts, succeeds or fails, is useful or not useful in building an elite team.

Exceeding original expectations is now 100% irrelevant while focusing on all his weaknesses is completely relevant?

You may be more of a "glass is half-empty" thinker than Piksi.

 

[Bricklayer]

Exceeding original expectations is now 100% irrelevant while focusing on all his weaknesses is completely relevant?

You may be more of a "glass is half-empty" thinker than Piksi.

I could give a damn about glasses -- the future is all that is ever relevant. Current weaknesses are 100% relevant to the future. Expectations from when he was a rookie 100% irrelevant to the future. It is simple as that.

 

[Section 101]

Interesting question, so I looked it up. Imposing a minimum of 40 games played, there have been only 33 seasons of 18/10 in NBA/ABA history and only 12 guys have done it:

Magic Johnson 7
Oscar Robertson 5
Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas 4
Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Guy Rodgers 2
Nate Archibald, Michael Adams, Sleepy Floyd 1

Of course, there have only been 67 seasons of 10 assists, so that's really the limiting factor - about half of the 10-assist guys go for 18 points.

Asking Tyreke to average 18 is not so unreasonable, especially after a few years in the league. Asking Tyreke to average 10...? He's pretty unlikely to even come close.

Interesting, I thought for sure Stockton would be on the list. But he had 3 season early in his career averaging 17+ ppg. His career average was only 13.1 ppg.

I think what people need to realize is as assists or scoring go up the other will more than likely go down. The more interesting stat would be the average points created, meaning points scored plus the points from the assists.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think what people need to realize is as assists or scoring go up the other will more than likely go down. The more interesting stat would be the average points created, meaning points scored plus the points from the assists.

Well, that's msotly true and a combined look might well give you some sort of rough idea of overall effectiveness, but I doubt the two stats are THAT interchangeable/fluid. Some guys just naturally have a great feel for passing, some scoring. And while a great scorer can up his assists somewhat by focusing on passing, or a great passer can up his points somewhat by focusing on scoring, they aren't ever going to be really great at those aspects for which they don't naturally have a good feel, and are probably going to lose more at what they are good at than they are going to gain in the less natural skill.

 

[thelonegunman]

Some of you don't get it. Despite whatever shortcomings or flaws that Kevin has, he's still a very good player. While there are other very important aspects of the game, scoring is THE most important. That's not arguable. And Kevin's strength is scoring.

Fact is, any successful team needs a player(s) like Kevin Martin. If the Kings had today's version of Martin on the floor during the waning moments of Game 7 of the WCF's instead of Doug Christie or Peja Stojakovic, they likely win. Kevin doesn't air ball wide open shots. And if he's left wide open and isn't the focus of the defense, he's pretty deadly.

The Kings and every team in the league needs players like that.

Nobody is going to argue that the Kings need better players on the whole. Nobody is going to argue that it would be nice to have a superstar. However, if the Kings put together a team void of superstars, like the one they assembled from 1999 to 2005, Martin's scoring and efficiency skills will play a key role to it's success.

 

[Kingzrool]

No, expectations are exactly what the issue is here. Anybody that is holding Kevin accountable for being a "superstar" or the "leader" or even the "first option", which some in this thread are, does not have a firm grip on reality.

Let me make this clear - KEVIN IS NOT EVER GOING TO BE AND SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO EVER BE any of those things listed above. The criticism is laughable because it is all based around false and unrealistic expectations. I agree that the Peja analogy is perfect. The Kings were an effin bounce away from a championship with Peja being a big soft wussy and he was nowhere near the condemning bounce. With the right surrounding cast, Kevin can easily be a great second option on a contending team - end of story.

After all the negativity and unfair accusations thrown his way, I can completely understand his statements.

Kings fans used to be considered the best in the league, this thread is an embarrassment.

 

[beb0p]

Expectations from when Kevin was a kid are 100% irrelevant, and are frankly thrown out there either as fluffy human interest feel good distractions, or flat out excuses. He is a 26 yr old multimillionaire in mid career at this point. Not a kid. Not a prospect. Nothing but a verteran asset that either helps or hurts, succeeds or fails, is useful or not useful in building an elite team.

There are many coaches who can use a 25 pt scorer, however poor his defense, in building a winning team. I take it you're probably not that person who can do it, but there are many in the NBA who can. And I think Westphal is one of them.

If you want to turn this into a debate that a big time scorer with bad defense can't help an elite team, you're welcome to; and you'll lose.

 

[Bricklayer]

Some of you don't get it. Despite whatever shortcomings or flaws that Kevin has, he's still a very good player. While there are other very important aspects of the game, scoring is THE most important.

Some of us don't get it all right, its just not the some of us you think it is.

This isn't fantasy ball.

Very few players that look like Kevin win titles. Basically NO players who are as one dimensional as Kevin has become in recent years win titles. You go through all the title winning wings for decades now and you will find that a "pure scorer" let alone a "one dimensional scorer" is not a valuable piece. Before the inevitable, and inevitably confused, attempts to quibble even start, I'll just go ahead and post the list from off the top of my head:

LAL - Kobe, Ariza
BOS - Pierce, Allen
SAN - Manu, Bowen
MIA - Wade, Posey
SAN - Manu, Bowen
DET - Hamilton, Prince
SAN - Manu, Bowen? (Jackson?)
LAL - Kobe, Fox
LAL - Kobe, Fox
LAL - Kobe, Fox (or Rice?)
SAN - Elliot, Elie?
CHI - Jordan, Pippen
CHI - Jordan, Pippen
CHI - Jordan, Pippen
HOU - Horry, Drexler
HOU - Horry, Maxwell
CHI - Jordan, Pippen
CHI - Jordan, Pippen
CHI - Jordan, Pippen
DET - Dumars, Aguirre/Rodman
DET - Dumars, Aguirre/Rodman

And just so on...


Now many great scorers in there? Sure. Many MORE great defenders, great passers, tough guys, roleplayers. The two closest guys to Kevin are Allen, who was a far better rounded player who notably sacrificed his offense to play defense as a 3rd (not 2nd) fiddle, and Hamilton, who notably grew out of one dimesnaionality in order tobecome title worthy, becoming a 4-5 assist per game guy and a solid defender after early years with a "scoring is all that matters" approach. Rice sould not count, but if you want to use him as your model feel free. We'll just get the two HOFs around him, marginalize him, have our coach hate his one dimensional chuckerrism, and win a title in spite of him rather than because of him. Then we can drop him for a roleplayer and win two more rings anyway.

 

[Bricklayer]

If you want to turn this into a debate that a big time scorer with bad defense can't help an elite team, you're welcome to; and you'll lose.

Indeed.

Peruse my post above this one, then get back to me.


What of course people routinely miss is that socring is easy. Yes easy. For an NBA SG/SF? Easiest thing most of them do. The league is FULL of guys who spent all their growing up years, their school years, their college years, as the goto scorers on their teams. Scoring is the easiest and most natural thing many of them do, and its even easier when you coast along and save all your energy and effort for that end of the floor. That does not mean that every SG in the league can score like Kevin can -- Keivn is am unusually gifted scorer. But it does mean that there are MANY SGs in the NBA who can score at 75% of Kevin's rate. Many a guy who can get you 18 if he's the man at SG, gets the shots, and isn't asked to spend any energy passing or defending or anything else. Its the ones that do more than just score -- the ones who score AND provide help in other areas that have the real value and go on to become champions.

 

[Alacron]

Kevin should become tougher. He needs to play defense as well. And he ought to be more of a playmaker and get about 4-5 assists a night. He really has no excuse for not carrying us to at least 30 wins last year, no matter what kind of team or coach he had. And since he's our best player and de facto leader, he really ought to start acting like it on the court. Of course, he still needs to bulk up, that'll help him on the boards and defense.

If he chooses not do to those things, let's just trade him for Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade.
~~

 

[beb0p]

Very few players that look like Kevin win titles.

Ok, stop right there. You're talking about winning a title? A title?

Sure, winning a title is the ultimate goal but it is so far down the horizon that no meaningful discussion can be had in 2009 about the Kings winning a title. Because at this point none of the players on the Kings look like guys who win titles, except for maybe Noc and Garica, who can be useful backups.

Let's come back to reality shall we? Let's stop this title talk and start talking about being more competitive. You know, baby steps. This team is not going to be turned around overnight.

 

[rhythmless]

Ok, stop right there. You're talking about winning a title? A title?

Sure, winning a title is the ultimate goal but it is so far down the horizon that no meaningful discussion can be had in 2009 about the Kings winning a title. Because at this point none of the players on the Kings look like guys who win titles, except for maybe Noc and Garica, who can be useful backups.

Let's come back to reality shall we? Let's stop this title talk and start talking about being more competitive. You know, baby steps. This team is not going to be turned around overnight.

You need to stop right there...

When you build a house, do you build it room by room, or do you build a foundation that is capable of sustaining the house you want? Reality is that you have a plan to build a championship team. You don't go amassing "good" players then hope a superstar lands in your lap. There's a reason people use the term "cornerstone" and "build around."

Edit: The CBA also basically TELLS you to do this. Salary cap lets teams resign their own players over the cap, but not sign free agents. The exceptions are mid level and minimum. So let's say you get your crapload of good players, then want a superstar. How are you going to get it? Who wants to trade a superstar for a bunch of good players? You can't sign a superstar for mid level. So please tell me how that's going to work.

 

[beb0p]

You need to stop right there...

When you build a house, do you build it room by room, or do you build a foundation that is capable of sustaining the house you want? Reality is that you have a plan to build a championship team. You don't go amassing "good" players then hope a superstar lands in your lap. There's a reason people use the term "cornerstone" and "build around."

Except no one on this thread has ever said KMart is a "cornerstone." No one.

This is like worrying about what your shower curtain should look like before you even put in a foundation. It is exactly my point: worry about the foundation first and then worry about the fuzzy things later. KMart is not a franchise player, not a cornerstone, so what? Just let him play and see how much better he gets. We are just starting to rebuild, you understand? There are going to be many changes before we win a title, you know that right?

And lastly...

You don't go amassing "good" players then hope a superstar lands in your lap.

I'm puzzled. This is exactly how Portland is doing it. In fact, pretty much how many teams do it. How do you get that superstar? You expect Cleveland to just trade Lebron James to us?

 

[rhythmless]

I'm puzzled. This is exactly how Portland is doing it. In fact, pretty much how many teams do it. How do you get that superstar? You expect Cleveland to just trade Lebron James to us?

I will say that Roy is their star that they build around. As for Cleveland, they got Lebron FIRST. Lakers went and grabbed Shaq FIRST. SAS had Robinson out for the year, and got TD and built around him.

The only team that has won without a true HOF in any recent time is Detroit. If you want to play the odds, you need to always shoot for that superstar first, not amass a bunch of role players. Role players all do different things.

If you want to fill a jar with rocks, you put the big ones in, then the pebbles, then the sand. If you fill it with sand first, you'll never fit it all in. Get the players around the superstar. That is the plan. That should be the plan, and it should always be in the minds of management and owners.

 

[beb0p]

I will say that Roy is their star that they build around. As for Cleveland, they got Lebron FIRST. Lakers went and grabbed Shaq FIRST. SAS had Robinson out for the year, and got TD and built around him.

The only team that has won without a true HOF in any recent time is Detroit. If you want to play the odds, you need to always shoot for that superstar first, not amass a bunch of role players. Role players all do different things.

If you want to fill a jar with rocks, you put the big ones in, then the pebbles, then the sand. If you fill it with sand first, you'll never fit it all in. Get the players around the superstar. That is the plan. That should be the plan, and it should always be in the minds of management and owners.

Except for the Lakers, every team you mentioned had a superstar landed in its lap - like the Spurs and the Cavs got lucky and landed the #1s.

I guess the issue is I don't understand your point. Get a superstar and then begin the rebuild? Sure, but we don't have a superstar. We have to rebuild now whether or not we have a franchise player, you know. We can't just wait for one.

 

[AriesMar27]

Except for the Lakers, every team you mentioned had a superstar landed in its lap - like the Spurs and the Cavs got lucky and landed the #1s.

I guess the issue is I don't understand your point. Get a superstar and then begin the rebuild? Sure, but we don't have a superstar. We have to rebuild now whether or not we have a franchise player, you know. We can't just wait for one.

number 1 picks are an overrated way to get superstars... the clippers have had 2 number 1 picks in the last 11 years and have only made the playoffs once in that time span... hell there have really only been 3 superstars that were number 1 picks in the past 15 years... duncan, lebron and maybe dwight/yao neither one is really on the same level as duncan or lebron.

kobe was like 13th, wade was 4th i believe... every other superstar that you can name were picked 3rd or lower...

we could build a contender overnight but will petrie and the maloofs trade players like thompson, hawes or evans for a player that will make us contenders? i hate saying it because its like beating a dead horse but trading for a player like amare or bosh would put us in the playoffs adding a defensive big like chandler or dalembert would make us a good defensive team. but who here is okay with gutting our team or sending one of the young players to the bench?

we could do it but would we? no, no we wouldnt.... we will play it safe and stick with the good but not great pllayers that we have and suck for another 82 games...

oh and martin missed like 30 games last season, if he had played in all of them and won half of them we wouldve won 30 games this past season... im not making excuses, i dont mind trading anyone on this team hell ive made posts this summer that has traded each one of our players in some sort of way.... we suck, playing sucky players more minutes will mean that we will see them suck more than we did last year. martin is the only player on our team from last year that didnt suck. his defense sucks... but he doesnt suck. he could actually start on almost half the teams in the nba. no other player on our team could start for more than 3.

 

[beb0p]

we could build a contender overnight but will petrie and the maloofs trade players like thompson, hawes or evans for a player that will make us contenders? i hate saying it because its like beating a dead horse but trading for a player like amare or bosh would put us in the playoffs adding a defensive big like chandler or dalembert would make us a good defensive team. but who here is okay with gutting our team or sending one of the young players to the bench?

we could do it but would we? no, no we wouldnt.... we will play it safe and stick with the good but not great pllayers that we have and suck for another 82 games...

I have no interest in getting into another #1 pick debate since I had not brought it up in the first place.

As for the trades, is Bosh even available? The answer is no according to reports. And there is no guarantee that we have enough to trade for Amare. So any trade that will quickly fix our problem is just pure speculation. It's fine to be speculative but I wouldn't treat it like the gospel.

 

[thelonegunman]

Some of us don't get it all right, its just not the some of us you think it is.

Nope .. I have an accurate idea of who gets it and who doesn't. Your continued posts prove that each and every day.

This isn't fantasy ball.

Thanks for the earth-shattering news. Once again, you think you're the only one "in the know".

Before the inevitable, and inevitably confused, attempts to quibble even start

Get off the high-horse, dude. You're the originator of the "confused attempts to quibble". Anybody that's been around these parts for just a little while knows this. Don't try to pass that one off or be dismissive.

We'll just get the two HOFs around him, marginalize him, have our coach hate his one dimensional chuckerrism, and win a title in spite of him rather than because of him. Then we can drop him for a roleplayer and win two more rings anyway.

This is one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever read. Game, set, match to me.

Face it, Brick. You are a hater. Anybody can dig up stats that support their claims. And that's what you do. You paste the stats / facts that support your hater point of view and conveniently leave out the ones that don't.

Your ace in the hole now is that the Kings only won 17 games last season.
As if that proves anything. How many games did Kevin miss? How many games did they win with him as opposed to without him? If you looked at it objectively, you'd see they were obviously better with him than without him, even if only marginally.

The Miami Heat only won 15 games during the 2007-08 season with the mighty Dwyane Wade playing in 51 out of 82 games (the same amount that Martin played in this season).

While Martin hasn't come close to accomplishing what Wade has, it just goes to show that if the surrounding parts aren't there and the franchise is in complete disarray ... ANYBODY can fail.

If an injury plagued Wade (an obvious super star) couldn't lead his team to more than 15 wins under the above scenario, how can you damn an injury plagued Kevin Martin for not doing much better? I don't get it. Please set me straight.

Furthermore, in regards to your list, Ray Allen WAS a pure scorer on that Celtics team. Despite what he had done in the past, he was a one-dimensional role player during that Championship run. The numbers back that up.

Ginobili was primarily a scorer.
Hamilton was primarily a scorer.

That's THREE guys in the past 6 championships that fit that role. And those 3 guys have / had something that Martin has never had since coming into his own .... all-star teammates that take defensive attention away from him.

Allen has Garnett, Pierce, and now Rondo.
Hamilton had Billups, Wallace, and Prince.
Ginobili has Duncan and Parker.

What has K-Mart ever had?? The best player he's played with (since becoming a prominent player) was Ron Artest. While Artest had his moments, he's no Garnett, Pierce, Billups, Duncan or Parker. Furthermore, that's only ONE player. These other guys had TWO other star players.

The day Martin plays with some notable talent and consistently fails is the day you can factually make the claims you're making.

As of right today, you're 100% wrong. Deal with it.

 

[AriesMar27]

I have no interest in getting into another #1 pick debate since I had not brought it up in the first place.

As for the trades, is Bosh even available? The answer is no according to reports. And there is no guarantee that we have enough to trade for Amare. So any trade that will quickly fix our problem is just pure speculation. It's fine to be speculative but I wouldn't treat it like the gospel.

it might be speculation or it might be true that they are available but we wouldnt know because the only thing that we do know is that petrie and/or the maloofs wont be making any moves to improve this team. we have the pieces to make a deal for mare but it would just be as a rental and thats what is probably scaring teams away from making the trade. i think its worth it but im not the one making the call.

 

[bozzwell]

What of course people routinely miss is that socring is easy. Yes easy. For an NBA SG/SF? Easiest thing most of them do. The league is FULL of guys who spent all their growing up years, their school years, their college years, as the goto scorers on their teams. Scoring is the easiest and most natural thing many of them do, and its even easier when you coast along and save all your energy and effort for that end of the floor. That does not mean that every SG in the league can score like Kevin can -- Keivn is am unusually gifted scorer. But it does mean that there are MANY SGs in the NBA who can score at 75% of Kevin's rate. Many a guy who can get you 18 if he's the man at SG, gets the shots, and isn't asked to spend any energy passing or defending or anything else. Its the ones that do more than just score -- the ones who score AND provide help in other areas that have the real value and go on to become champions.

Love the scorer rant. Loved it. Could not agree any more.

Just watched Ted Williams documentary on HBO. The ultimate hit machine, last man to hit .400+ for the season was booed, spit on and thrown golf balls at by Fenway crowds for not being a "team player". It was perceived that by not grounding/flying out to sacrifice and waiting for pitches to slam into outfield or over the fence he hurt the team when he could have been driving in the runs instead of posting huge average and bunch of walks. I think that's a bit excessive, Boston fans are really awful, they're like Philly fans with better PR and more championships. Analogy works though for me.

I don't care how many points you score if that's all you're doing and your team is still losing.

Having said that, Kevin has widely exceeded my most optimistic expectations - at least offensively. If he were to sack up and play D, use his scoring threat to pass the ball and make things happen for others, he could be a great #2 on a good to near elite team, or at the very worst a #3 on an elite team.

 

[Kingzrool]

Now I understand, just trade Martin for a super star and you have a better nucleus. Why did't I think of that? Seriously, just DUH.

Now all we have to do is pick one of the superstars that are lining up to come to Sactown and its a done deal. I am not sure if I am going to even bother reading this thread anymore.

If I were not a Kings fan, I would hope and pray that he did get traded to another team and show you all what he can do with the proper pieces in place around him.

Peace out.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Now I understand, just trade Martin for a super star and you have a better nucleus. Why did't I think of that? Seriously, just DUH.

I'd settle for a player that scored a third less, but played both sides of the floor.

If I were not a Kings fan, I would hope and pray that he did get traded to another team and show you all what he can do with the proper pieces in place around him.

The proper pieces in place around him?

Let's not kid ourselves: if Martin has any sort of tangible success in the NBA, it will be because he is the "proper piece" that's placed around somebody else. If we, as KingsFans, are very fortunate, Tyreke Evans will end up being that "somebody else," and we'll already have his wingman ready to go.

Him, or Wall. Either way works for me...

 

[rainmaker]

Blaming Kevin for not taking the Kings to the promised land or even deep into the playoffs is absolutely rediculous. Only a handful of players have ever put a team onto their back and carried them deep into the playoffs.

Anyone who is mad at Kevin for not developing into Kobe, Wade, or a lebron type of player is going to have an absolutely miserable existence as an nba fan. Very few teams ever get players like that on their roster, and even fewer actually win a ring.

Kevin is a damn good nba sg, borderline allstar, and his surrounding cast sucked last year, not to mention he was injured the majority of the year. Can he improve? Of course. Does he have to work on his defense? Of course. But enough of this crap about Kevin not developing into a superstar capable of carrying a team to 55+ wins and the WCF or NBA Finals.

It seems to me a lot of fans here are blaming Kevin for the shortcomings of the organization. We have traded away a lot of talent over the past few years, from Hedo to Bibby to Ron and so on, as well as having a different coach almost every season. Did anyone really expect this team not to take a nose dive? And Kevin, as the best player on the team, is getting all the blame. Everyone is pissed about our terrible record the past few years, and they need someone to blame. But as soon as our young guys develop, and we start winning, all this criticism of Kevin will go away.

 

[sdballer]

Indeed.

Peruse my post above this one, then get back to me.


What of course people routinely miss is that socring is easy. Yes easy. For an NBA SG/SF? Easiest thing most of them do. The league is FULL of guys who spent all their growing up years, their school years, their college years, as the goto scorers on their teams. Scoring is the easiest and most natural thing many of them do, and its even easier when you coast along and save all your energy and effort for that end of the floor. That does not mean that every SG in the league can score like Kevin can -- Keivn is am unusually gifted scorer. But it does mean that there are MANY SGs in the NBA who can score at 75% of Kevin's rate. Many a guy who can get you 18 if he's the man at SG, gets the shots, and isn't asked to spend any energy passing or defending or anything else. Its the ones that do more than just score -- the ones who score AND provide help in other areas that have the real value and go on to become champions.

I think you are using too much logic in your arguments. Apparently, holding Kevin accountable for some defense and passing is unreasonable.

 

[sdballer]

Blaming Kevin for not taking the Kings to the promised land or even deep into the playoffs is absolutely rediculous. Only a handful of players have ever put a team onto their back and carried them deep into the playoffs.

Anyone who is mad at Kevin for not developing into Kobe, Wade, or a lebron type of player is going to have an absolutely miserable existence as an nba fan. Very few teams ever get players like that on their roster, and even fewer actually win a ring.

Kevin is a damn good nba sg, borderline allstar, and his surrounding cast sucked last year, not to mention he was injured the majority of the year. Can he improve? Of course. Does he have to work on his defense? Of course. But enough of this crap about Kevin not developing into a superstar capable of carrying a team to 55+ wins and the WCF or NBA Finals.

It seems to me a lot of fans here are blaming Kevin for the shortcomings of the organization. We have traded away a lot of talent over the past few years, from Hedo to Bibby to Ron and so on, as well as having a different coach almost every season. Did anyone really expect this team not to take a nose dive? And Kevin, as the best player on the team, is getting all the blame. Everyone is pissed about our terrible record the past few years, and they need someone to blame. But as soon as our young guys develop, and we start winning, all this criticism of Kevin will go away.

WTF? When did this thread turn into distorting people's views asking Kevin to own up to the need for more effort on defense, passing, teamplay, etc. into the people saying it his fault we didn't win a championship and was not living into expectations as a late pick? The extremes that people are going to defend him are absurd and quite frankly insulting to the high level discussions on this site.

Fans need to understand that its ok to point out players flaws and what they need to work on to help the team get better. No one is suggesting it makes us champions over night, or that players that have an area to work on are worthless slobs.

The fact is if what all Kingsfans want, which is to continue to get better so that we can hopefully contend sometime in our lifetimes, they are going to need to improve or they are going to need to add pieces. If any discussion around improving is met with such criticism and no one wants to move any of our "core", we're going to continue to suck which no one wants. So everyone just get a cold drink and relax.

 

[rhythmless]

WTF? When did this thread turn into distorting people's views asking Kevin to own up to the need for more effort on defense, passing, teamplay, etc. into the people saying it his fault we didn't win a championship and was not living into expectations as a late pick? The extremes that people are going to defend him are absurd and quite frankly insulting to the high level discussions on this site.

Fans need to understand that its ok to point out players flaws and what they need to work on to help the team get better. No one is suggesting it makes us champions over night, or that players that have an area to work on are worthless slobs.

The fact is if what all Kingsfans want, which is to continue to get better so that we can hopefully contend sometime in our lifetimes, they are going to need to improve or they are going to need to add pieces. If any discussion around improving is met with such criticism and no one wants to move any of our "core", we're going to continue to suck which no one wants. So everyone just get a cold drink and relax.

/thread.

 

[VF21]

WTF? When did this thread turn into distorting people's views asking Kevin to own up to the need for more effort on defense, passing, teamplay, etc. into the people saying it his fault we didn't win a championship and was not living into expectations as a late pick? The extremes that people are going to defend him are absurd and quite frankly insulting to the high level discussions on this site.

Fans need to understand that its ok to point out players flaws and what they need to work on to help the team get better. No one is suggesting it makes us champions over night, or that players that have an area to work on are worthless slobs.

The fact is if what all Kingsfans want, which is to continue to get better so that we can hopefully contend sometime in our lifetimes, they are going to need to improve or they are going to need to add pieces. If any discussion around improving is met with such criticism and no one wants to move any of our "core", we're going to continue to suck which no one wants. So everyone just get a cold drink and relax.

While your opinion is as valid as anyone else's, the extremes that some might go to in defense of Martin are no more absurd than the lengths some will go to in condemnation of Martin.

This discussion has been going along quite nicely. I think you can put your soapbox away...

The key to keeping the discussions flowing are to allow both ends of the spectrum to have their say, provided they follow the rules of the board, as well as those in the middle.

I agree with your last sentence, BTW.

 

[sdballer]

While your opinion is as valid as anyone else's, the extremes that some might go to in defense of Martin are no more absurd than the lengths some will go to in condemnation of Martin.

This discussion has been going along quite nicely. I think you can put your soapbox away...

The key to keeping the discussions flowing are to allow both ends of the spectrum to have their say, provided they follow the rules of the board, as well as those in the middle.

I agree with your last sentence, BTW.

With all due respect, that's a bunch of nonsense. As long as fans are "defending" the team, there is great latitude in how the argument is distorted, how personal the attacks get, etc. But if you have a dissenting opinion, you better watch it or a moderator is going to call you out.

And I find your not too subtle condescending tone uncalled for. Its no more of a soap box to ask for a little balance when debating than it is to end every other message with "I love this team" or calls for loyalty every time a fan has a dissenting opinion.

 

[VF21]

With all due respect, that's a bunch of nonsense. As long as fans are "defending" the team, there is great latitude in how the argument is distorted, how personal the attacks get, etc. But if you have a dissenting opinion, you better watch it or a moderator is going to call you out.

And I find your not too subtle condescending tone uncalled for. Its no more of a soap box to ask for a little balance when debating than it is to end every other message with "I love this team" or calls for loyalty every time a fan has a dissenting opinion.

You finding condescension doesn't mean I lost it. I was not being condescending at all... I was simply pointing out that the debate here has gone on quite well without it turning into a "You're a meanie!" or "You hate the Kings!" or any of the other myriad things people who are polar opposites will sometimes say.

People have gone on about Martin for numerous pages and I haven't said a word about the content, although I have very basic conceptual disagreements with some of the things being said. Why? Because I actually like to see both sides of the argument.

The reason I stepped in was because you seemed to want to make it into an expanded us vs. them debate, which never works out well. I highlighted the ONE sentence I found particularly troublesome because righteous indignation on either side of the spectrum is generally self-serving and ill-advised.

Feel free to continue the discussion. That's all well and good. But look again before you decide this debate has been without balance. I think it's a good thread with points on both sides...that's pretty much the definition of balance.

Carry on...