Amick on K-Mart

[Bricklayer]

I agree that Martin is reasonably paid right now, at $50mil over 5 years? And if memory serves, that is the same number that Bricklayer was insisting we should throw at both Tyson Chandler and Nene over the past couple of years.

Indeed-- that is market value for a good big. They are inherently more valuable than a scoring OG -- one of the two easiest to replace pieces on the floor (SF).

P.S. As an aside, while I do appreciate a good unintentional compliment, I assume your post was some attempt at a dig. But if lurkers are going to continue to pop up to try to take digs before slinking back away, you should really concentrate on finding areas where I was actually wrong. Chandler and Nene have both been exactly what I said they could be (it would be amusing if I could find my old post on Nene's 15 and 8 potential), and both been the starting centers on teams making deep playoff runs in the last couple of years.

 

[kennadog]

Some player on our Kings is always the focus of anger and/or criticism around here. Webber, Vlade, Peja or the coach, like Adelman. Frustrated fans want to identify who's the problem. What needs fixing. Martin is the easiest player to blame. He's been around longer and has enough skill to want more from him.

We seem to forget that Martin was a 26th pick that turned out to be a far better player than anyone expected. Better than most picked that far down. Put him on a contending team with a role that suits his skills and personality and he'd be fine. Put him on a losing team desperate for a savior and he's a one-dimensional, underperforming player.

Do not read this as meaning I don't think we should trade Martin or that I don't keep hoping for at least some improvement in his defense. I, too, think he has to step up in the area of defense. I think he has the ability to do better in that area.

I'm also not against trading Martin, although I'd rather wait and see how the current players perform together first, especially the backcourt of Martin and Evans. I'd like Evans to be able to play the point, but if he really doesn't work out well enough at point, then I think you move him to OG and probably trade Martin. I'd also like to see how Kevin does under Westphal.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Note that Paul Westphal coached two of the highest scoring PGs of all time in Kevin Johnson and Gary Payton. He may believe in the traditional PG trait of being the primary ballhandler, but there is no evidence at all that he is going to be insisting on or looking for a true pass first mentality. His pro PGs have also been his best offensive players.

Johnson joined the Suns in his rookie season before Westphal even joined the Suns as an assistant coach. Johnson averaged 12.6ppg & 8.7 apg for the Suns in his rookie season after coming over from the Cavs. Yes, Johnson's averages went up to 20 & 12 the next 3 yrs, but as the 7th pick in the draft, his performance should have gotten better after his rookie year. And, I can find no reference where Johnson attributes any of his improvement to Westphal.

Now, back to my original statement. I still believe Evan will be a 18 & 10 performer, not because he can't produce more points but because he choices to feed Martin, Hawes & JT. So, IF I'm correct, Martin will be the top scorer on the team again. And, IMO, if Evans is the top scorer the team will have regressed because it will have become a one man show.

 

[coolhandluke]

Wow, this thread is overflowing with haterade. Here we are at the start of a possible renaissance of winning Kings basketball and all this unfounded negativity sickens me.

Kevin is what he is. He ain't gonna change his spots now. Either you accept him and keep him as part of the future or ship him out to some team that could use a effective scorer.

From what I see, this guy has done a good job of maximizing his natural attributes and all he has done throughout his career is overcome the naysayers, who revel in their apparent know-it-all smugness.

"Did you look at his shot? He can't shoot. Did you look at his frail physique? He can't finish in traffic. Did you ...? "

I know, players are just like toys for the fans who have no qualms about tossing them aside like used toilet tissue on the first sign of physical fallibility. We saw it happen with Webber. We saw it with Peja. We saw it with Bibby. We will see it with Kevin too. Amidst it all, we will puff our chests with pride about our ****ing fake loyalty too. Same ol'. same ol'.

 

[kupman]

Some player on our Kings is always the focus of anger and/or criticism around here. Webber, Vlade, Peja or the coach, like Adelman. Frustrated fans want to identify who's the problem. What needs fixing. Martin is the easiest player to blame. He's been around longer and has enough skill to want more from him.

We seem to forget that Martin was a 26th pick that turned out to be a far better player than anyone expected. Better than most picked that far down. Put him on a contending team with a role that suits his skills and personality and he'd be fine. Put him on a losing team desperate for a savior and he's a one-dimensional, underperforming player.

Do not read this as meaning I don't think we should trade Martin or that I don't keep hoping for at least some improvement in his defense. I, too, think he has to step up in the area of defense. I think he has the ability to do better in that area.

I'm also not against trading Martin, although I'd rather wait and see how the current players perform together first, especially the backcourt of Martin and Evans. I'd like Evans to be able to play the point, but if he really doesn't work out well enough at point, then I think you move him to OG and probably trade Martin. I'd also like to see how Kevin does under Westphal.

This reflects pretty much how I feel as well. Nice post.

It does make me roll my eyes when I hear so much criticism coming Martin's way. I do not think that anyone could have guessed that he could average 25 ppg after his rookie season. I also think that it is disingenuous to call Martin a greedy cherry picker. Most of his shots are tough shots made in the half court sets and are followed by a free-throw as he picks-up the "and 1."

 

[NME]

From what I see, this guy has done a good job of maximizing his natural attributes and all he has done throughout his career is overcome the naysayers, who revel in their apparent know-it-all smugness.

"Did you look at his shot? He can't shoot. Did you look at his frail physique? He can't finish in traffic. Did you ...? "

I will never forget that guy who registered here after the draft to inform us that, having done radio on several of Kevin's college games, he would not be able to get to the line in the NBA. Least accurate prediction ever?

 

[VF21]

... Kevin is what he is. He ain't gonna change his spots now. Either you accept him and keep him as part of the future or ship him out to some team that could use a effective scorer.

From what I see, this guy has done a good job of maximizing his natural attributes and all he has done throughout his career is overcome the naysayers...

That's what I see, too. Martin's "failure" to live up to some critics expectations begs the question. Which is worse? His "failure" or unrealistic expectations? Sure, there's always room for improvement but players are human and humans aren't perfect. Making Martin into the perfect 2-guard is fun to talk about but it's not gonna happen in real life.

Vlade had flaws in his game, for example. His flopping used to drive me nuts. Webber had flaws. Peja had shortcomings, as did Mike and Doug. It wasn't the individual that was important, however. It was the combined TEAM that took our breath away.

I feel strongly about the potential of a Evans/Martin/Casspi/Thompson/Hawes lineup. I think they'll excite the fans; I know I'm looking forward to seeing it. It will not be a return to THE TEAM of old; it will be the emergence of a new TEAM.

Each of those players has flaws but they also have the ability to make their teammates better.

It's not about winning a championship with this current crew. It's about moving back in the right direction and slowly but surely building the team that will once again be able to compete. Remember how Martin looked against the Spurs? I think that's how he can look again, with the right supporting cast.

Anyway, thanks for your post. I think it reflected how a lot of us feel but are sometimes hesitant to post because we don't want to have a knock-down dragout argument; we just want to be hopeful about this team we love.

 

[rainmaker]

Kevin is not a superstar, and never will be. He's not an allstar, although he has a chance to make the team a couple times if/when the Kings start winning.

My biggest problem with a lot of the opinions in this thread is that they all constantly point out everything WRONG with kevin's game. How about the fact he was picked 26th overall, and 4 yrs ago many wondered if he could ever be a starting sg in the nba. He has surpassed everyone's expectations up to this point.

Is the main knock on Kevin's game that he isn't a superstar and never will be? Cleveland, LA, Orlando, and Miami are the only teams that have a true superstar IMO. There are arguably between 5-10 superstars in the league, and I don't think its fair to blame Kevin if he doesn't develop into a top 10 player.

I agree 100% that Kevin has things he has to work on. Ballhandling should be a priority, and his passing needs to improve. As far a defense is concerned, he's played it before, and he can play it again. He and Thorpe are working on defense this summer, and Kevin has been hitting the weights so he can be more physical on that end. I believe kevins ankle really was bothering him this past year, and a healthy ankle should help him on defense next year, along with improved coaching and technique. He will never be a lockdown defender, but he could be above average. I was dissapointed in his defense last year, but if he really improves on that end going forward, than his ankle injuries would have been a legitimate excuse. Only time will tell how that plays out.

With the future development of Tyreke, Spence, and JT, all who could become very good nba players(at least one should become an allstar), kevin will be a great piece to play along side them. IMO, kevin will get better as the talent around him improves, which is true of a lot of players.

Now, if Kevin shows up next season not having improved on defense at all, then I would be all for trade talks. At that point, if he trully is healthy, and is not performing on that end of the court, there won't be any excuses, it will be because of a lack of effort. But at this point, no one on this forum, including myself of course, really knows how bad Kevins ankle was. Its all speculation at this point. Kevin is still young enough for us to wait and see how he responds next season, and I think Ellie will have a good effect on Kevin and might bring out some toughness in him.

 

[Kingster]

Defense

I just want see some defense. Not the high-risk go-for-steal defense and then be totally out of position defense. The serious defense in which you close out on the three point shooters like the coaches teach you, stay in front of your man, and the defense in which you take the charge from your weak side position. Kevin has been going through the motions, just PLAYING (as in playing a part in acting) at defense. He's got to grow up, play with some maturity, and some heart.

 

[Bricklayer]

Johnson joined the Suns in his rookie season before Westphal even joined the Suns as an assistant coach. Johnson averaged 12.6ppg & 8.7 apg for the Suns in his rookie season after coming over from the Cavs. Yes, Johnson's averages went up to 20 & 12 the next 3 yrs, but as the 7th pick in the draft, his performance should have gotten better after his rookie year. And, I can find no reference where Johnson attributes any of his improvement to Westphal.

Now, back to my original statement. I still believe Evan will be a 18 & 10 performer, not because he can't produce more points but because he choices to feed Martin, Hawes & JT. So, IF I'm correct, Martin will be the top scorer on the team again. And, IMO, if Evans is the top scorer the team will have regressed because it will have become a one man show.

Evans will never be a 10 assist guy. In fact in the entire history of the NBA there have probably only been a few dozen 18 and 10 guys. that's nto what he is.

And Westphal doesn't have to have created anybody -- jsut a question of him being 100% comfortable wiht offensive minded PG play, and indeed having run a series fo very potent offenses with those types at the helm. He's certainly not the guy to insist on a PG playing a certian way.

 

[Telemachus]

P.S. As an aside, while I do appreciate a good unintentional compliment, I assume your post was some attempt at a dig. But if lurkers are going to continue to pop up to try to take digs before slinking back away, you should really concentrate on finding areas where I was actually wrong. Chandler and Nene have both been exactly what I said they could be (it would be amusing if I could find my old post on Nene's 15 and 8 potential), and both been the starting centers on teams making deep playoff runs in the last couple of years.

The only problem is that both Nene and Chandler could have been replaced on either team, and neither of them would have missed them much. When a player is the 5th most important starter of the team, don't give them too much credit for the team's success.

 

[Telemachus]

I think the biggest problem I see after reading all these posts is that we are trying to make Martin into something he is not. A lot of fans did the same thing with Peja. Just because he is the best player on the team doesn't make him the leader or a player who can carry a team. This was asked of Peja by many fans and is now being asked of Martin. Unfortuneately, neither of them are/were leaders. That doesn't make them a worse player by any means, it just means don't ask them to lead the team. I am a strong believer that a leader can't be created. It is something you either have or don't have.

Neither player is able to carry a team. They have a set of skills that make them effective NBA players, and are better served when they are the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team. I think that is what the Kings need right now. Not for Kevin to become something that is probably beyond his ability, but for some of the young Kings to become better players than Martin. That doesn't mean they have to outscore him, but be more important to the team's overall success.

I think that Hawes, JT, and Evans all have the "potential" to become better players than Martin, and that is when the Kings will start to improve more as a team.

 

[Bricklayer]

The only problem is that both Nene and Chandler could have been replaced on either team, and neither of them would have missed them much. When a player is the 5th most important starter of the team, don't give them too much credit for the team's success.

The what?

That is just...poor.

No worse than third in either case, and your statment approaches the outrageous given the presence of Dahntay Jones and Mo Pete/Rasual Butler. If you don't understand the absolutely overwhelming importance of that strong quality bigman in there on elite teams...you should. You can't watch the league for long without figuring these things out.

I mean, wow. I get accustomed to a certain level of cluelessness in posts from some posters but you are generally solid. Not so here. If you think you remove Tyson Chandler from last year's Hornets team and they go as far as they did...that's just terrible. Really. If you think you remove Nene, getting some All Star consideration as a physical 60% shooting man beast holding down the middle for a WCF team, and they go as far...just duh. Both guys were top 10 centers in those years.

That's just really bad. Something I would normally have to deal with by a troll or smallball zealot. In your case...if you want to go back and delete that post I'll delete this response to help you save your reputation. You can do better.

 

[Telemachus]

The what?

That is just...poor.

No worse than third in either case, and your statment approaches the outrageous given the presence of Dahntay Jones and Mo Pete/Rasual Butler. If you don't understand the absolutely overwhelming importance of that strong quality bigman in there on elite teams...you should. You can't watch the league for long without figuring these things out.

I mean, wow. I get accustomed to a certain level of cluelessness in posts from some posters but you are generally solid. Not so here. If you think you remove Tyson Chandler from last year's Hornets team and they go as far as they did...that's just terrible. Really. If you think you remove Nene, getting some All Star consideration as a physical 60% shooting man beast holding down the middle for a WCF team, and they go as far...just duh. Both guys were top 10 centers in those years.

That's just really bad. Something I would normally have to deal with by a troll or smallball zealot. In your case...if you want to go back and delete that post I'll delete this response to help you save your reputation. You can do better.

You have a right to your opinion, but I disagree. Looking at Denver, Billups was the biggest reason for their success last season. I think that Carmelo, J.R. Smith, and KMart were next in importance. That doesn't make Nene unimportant, just the least important of the starters IMO. I have always liked Nene, I just think he is a nice role player that never turned into the star many thought he would.

With New Orleans, it is obvious that Paul is the most important player, I just think that West, Posey, and Peja were next most important. That once again puts Chandler as the least important of the starters. If you want to go back to the previous season, I would agree that he was a bigger part of their success (just not this season).

 

[Kings Faithful]

The what?

That is just...poor.

No worse than third in either case, and your statment approaches the outrageous given the presence of Dahntay Jones and Mo Pete/Rasual Butler. If you don't understand the absolutely overwhelming importance of that strong quality bigman in there on elite teams...you should. You can't watch the league for long without figuring these things out.

I mean, wow. I get accustomed to a certain level of cluelessness in posts from some posters but you are generally solid. Not so here. If you think you remove Tyson Chandler from last year's Hornets team and they go as far as they did...that's just terrible. Really. If you think you remove Nene, getting some All Star consideration as a physical 60% shooting man beast holding down the middle for a WCF team, and they go as far...just duh. Both guys were top 10 centers in those years.

That's just really bad. Something I would normally have to deal with by a troll or smallball zealot. In your case...if you want to go back and delete that post I'll delete this response to help you save your reputation. You can do better.

You know, you don't have to be so gung ho on people all the time...

 

[Bricklayer]

You have a right to your opinion, but I disagree. Looking at Denver, Billups was the biggest reason for their success last season. I think that Carmelo, J.R. Smith, and KMart were next in importance. That doesn't make Nene unimportant, just the least important of the starters IMO. I have always liked Nene, I just think he is a nice role player that never turned into the star many thought he would.

With New Orleans, it is obvious that Paul is the most important player, I just think that West, Posey, and Peja were next most important. That once again puts Chandler as the least important of the starters. If you want to go back to the previous season, I would agree that he was a bigger part of their success (just not this season).

Denver:
Melo
Billups
Nene: 32.6min 14.6pts 7.8rebs .604FG%
Martin: 32.0min 11.7pts 6.0reb .491 FG%
Fifth starter = Dahntay Jones
J.R. Smith = bench player 15.2pts 3.7rebs

----------------------------------------------

and yes, we specifally talked about 11.7reb 11.8reb Chandler of last year. Had just a tad to do wiht their success. A tad being do they make the playoffs wihtout him tad.

 

[Bricklayer]

You know, you don't have to be so gung ho on people all the time...

Nor do people have to challenge me with ridiculous **** all the time. But they do. So there we go. Do wonder what the point is sometimes.

Now I called him on an ill thought out challenge. He amended. And we will eventually work it down. It will all work out.

 

[Telemachus]

Denver:
Melo
Billups
Nene: 32.6min 14.6pts 7.8rebs .604FG%

Martin: 32.0min 11.7pts 6.0reb .491 FG%
Fifth starter = Dahntay Jones
J.R. Smith = bench player 15.2pts 3.7rebs

----------------------------------------------

and yes, we specifally talked about 11.7reb 11.8reb Chandler of last year. Had just a tad to do wiht their success. A tad being do they make the playoffs wihtout him tad.

Sorry, I missed the part were you were referring to Chandler of 2 seasons ago, and not last season. He was like 2 different players in those 2 years.

As for Denver, I agree that Nene was more important than Jones but still think Smith had a bigger impact on their success or failure (when his head got screwy). And while Nene had better numbers than Martin, Martin had a bigger impact on the outcome of the games IMO. I don't claim to have watched all their games, but in the games I watched Martin had more of an impact on the final outcome than Nene.

 

[hrdboild]

Looking at this debate from an outsider's perspective, it seems to me that the basic argument here is circular because you're both looking at it from different perspectives. I think Brick already marked out the point of contention here--

No worse than third in either case, and your statment approaches the outrageous given the presence of Dahntay Jones and Mo Pete/Rasual Butler. If you don't understand the absolutely overwhelming importance of that strong quality bigman in there on elite teams...you should. You can't watch the league for long without figuring these things out.

It's about the relative going rate of a solid big man in the league versus a perimeter scorer. Kevin Martin shoots the ball and gets to the free throw line at an elite rate. Then you add in his stellar FT% and you get one of the top scorers in the league. So you could look at his 10 million dollar price tag and say that he is a bargain. After all, you look at the list of other top scorers and you see guys like Dwayne Wade and Kobe Bryant who are making twice that.

Compared to Kevin's 25ppg or so, a solid (not spectacular, but respectable) big like Nene puts up a comparably less impressive 14 and 8, though he does get those points off even more efficient 60% fg shooting. The contributions of a player like that can be just as important to winning basketball games as the 25ppg you're getting from Martin. In addition to his defensive rebounding, Nene is altering shots in the paint and bodying up on the opponent's post player. He's also providing your offense with an option that doesn't involve setting picks or spacing your perimter players. In other words, simple bread-and-butter offense which is always going to work (well 60% of the time, which qualifies as always in the NBA) regardless of what the defense throws at you. Since big guys who rebound, play defense, and can score effeciently around the basket are rare these days, most teams over pay to get average ones. I wouldn't call Nene or Chandler elite, but they're both certainly above average. And at their position that makes them a relative bargain at anything close to 10 million a year.

Just look at our team. The only reliably effective big men on our team came through lottery picks. Kevin Martin was a late first round pick. Not all late first round picks blossom into top scorers, but remember we also recently added John Salmons with a mid-range journeyman contract and he put up similar scoring numbers while he was in the starting lineup. Not as effecient as Kevin's, but close. Which suggests to me that Brick is right in asserting that perimeter scorers are easier to replace than reliable starting bigs.

I'm not trying to say that Nene (or whoever) is more valuable than Kevin Martin, both are important to creating a winning team. But the message I keep seeing Brick send out again and again is that toughness matters. Reliable bigs matter. Guys who commit to playing defense matter. And it's great to have scorers too, but if you only acknowledge the contributions of the scorers you run the risk of building a team which is woefully thin on all of the gritty dirty work skills you need to have to win games. As much as I love Kevin's scoring (and aside from that he always comes across as a genuinely nice guy; and his 'small town kid makes good' background makes for a nice story), I also acknowlege that having him out there means everyone else is going to have to take up some of the slack for him in those areas. At least if/until he grows as a player. And ultimately, that is a reason to consider other options at his position.

 

[Semi]

Johnson joined the Suns in his rookie season before Westphal even joined the Suns as an assistant coach. Johnson averaged 12.6ppg & 8.7 apg for the Suns in his rookie season after coming over from the Cavs. Yes, Johnson's averages went up to 20 & 12 the next 3 yrs, but as the 7th pick in the draft, his performance should have gotten better after his rookie year. And, I can find no reference where Johnson attributes any of his improvement to Westphal.

Guess you missed this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsY5DMPpAlE

 

[Chupacabra]

From alot of what im reading about this it seems most of you are WAYYY too critical of Martin. Our starting lineup aside from Martin was a total joke last year. Martin can score from anywhere on the floor and can do so at a high %. So what if he tries to leak out for 2 easy points. Easy buckets are the best kind. Its a rebounders 2nd priority to find the open man downcourt. Martin can definitely be trained to be a better ball handler. As for his lack of defense, i think the team needs to become more defensive minded so that everyone buys into it. Not trying to let Martin off easy for his lack of D, its just the best way to motivate players defensively. If one guy is diving all over the place for the ball usually everyone with a sack and two berries will follow.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Nor do people have to challenge me with ridiculous **** all the time. But they do. So there we go. Do wonder what the point is sometimes.

Now I called him on an ill thought out challenge. He amended. And we will eventually work it down. It will all work out.

Chillax then. I do agree with your big men matter assessment though.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Evans will never be a 10 assist guy. In fact in the entire history of the NBA there have probably only been a few dozen 18 and 10 guys. that's nto what he is.

Interesting question, so I looked it up. Imposing a minimum of 40 games played, there have been only 33 seasons of 18/10 in NBA/ABA history and only 12 guys have done it:

Magic Johnson 7
Oscar Robertson 5
Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas 4
Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Guy Rodgers 2
Nate Archibald, Michael Adams, Sleepy Floyd 1

Of course, there have only been 67 seasons of 10 assists, so that's really the limiting factor - about half of the 10-assist guys go for 18 points.

Asking Tyreke to average 18 is not so unreasonable, especially after a few years in the league. Asking Tyreke to average 10...? He's pretty unlikely to even come close.

 

[ParniValjak]

Interesting question, so I looked it up. Imposing a minimum of 40 games played, there have been only 33 seasons of 18/10 in NBA/ABA history and only 12 guys have done it:

Magic Johnson 7
Oscar Robertson 5
Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas 4
Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Guy Rodgers 2
Nate Archibald, Michael Adams, Sleepy Floyd 1

Of course, there have only been 67 seasons of 10 assists, so that's really the limiting factor - about half of the 10-assist guys go for 18 points.

Asking Tyreke to average 18 is not so unreasonable, especially after a few years in the league. Asking Tyreke to average 10...? He's pretty unlikely to even come close.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tyreke averages 18 ppg in his rookie season but IMHO at his absolute best case scenario, he would be a 7apg player.

Thats best case scenario but he is likely to linger around 4-5 apg for most of his career.

 

[gunks]

Most likely....

I dont think Reke is going to be a PG long term. Doesnt mean he wont be a primary ball handler, he just wont do it from the 1.

I could see him peaking at 20+/6/5 though... He's a great rebounder for his position, and will get a lot of assists just from the drive and dish. Thems perennial allstar numbers right there.

Of course I'm a huge homer who thinks JT will peak at 18/12, and Hawes will put up 24/9/4/2. So what do I know.

 

[rings4Kings]

Exactly why I say that this Kings team would've been the first not to.

However, in all seriousness.. take any other superstar in the league and we would probably still be a lottery team.

The holes in Kevin's game seem much bigger because of his surrounding cast.

Agreed; Moreover, consider the position he plays. He's guarding the other teams' number one scoring option. It's not like he guarding the other teams' defensive stopper, he's guarding their best player. Yes he needs to improve defensively, but he is our best player, and we drafted him with the 26th pick overall (yeah, we could have gone with Beno that year who went 28th, but how’s that working out?). Martin needs some help around him like any other player in the league, we just need to give him a chance to get healthy. Give him an outside threat who can hit the three and a solid offensive rebounder before we criticize him. If we put a squad around him and he still can’t get it done, then put the blame on him. I'm just not ready to put the blame entirely on him for our 17 win season, at least not yet.

 

[Rookie]

Kevin was "our best" player last season and was put on the pedestal with high expectations. But lets all understand one thing...we don't want him to be our best player. I would love to get a better player for him but trading him for the sake of trading is ignorant.

Like most people I agree that KMart can still be a good piece of the rebuilding process.

I think of him as a Rook in a chess game. Limited by their movement, the Rook is almost useless. But when added with a Queen or even another Rook, he can be deadly.

I'm hoping Evans can be the next Rook and by 2010 we can get a Queen. With Hawes and JT as Bishops. Bishops can cover each other to be dangerous as well. But I'm just wishing now.

 

[Bricklayer]

[
Agreed; Moreover, consider the position he plays. He's guarding the other teams' number one scoring option. It's not like he guarding the other teams' defensive stopper, he's guarding their best player.

Haha -- Kevin hasn't guarded the other team's best player since maybe his 2nd season. We've been hiding him for years, and putting his responsibilities off on whoever he is playing with. Artest would take his man. Or Salmons would take his man. Or Cisco. Or just anyone who would D up. Kevin nearly always takes the weaker swingman. You don't see him manning up Kobe. You see him guarding Ariza. Or even Fisher if we can finnagle it.

Actually one of the areas where Evans may help again -- with his size we may once more have somebody who can take the tougher backcourt matchup.

 

[beb0p]

Essentially the anti-Martin crowd is chastising a player who has far exceeded expectations, for not exceeding them further.

Martin is not expected to be an All-Star when he was drafted. He is not paid like an All-Star (his salary is on par with Al Harrington/Corey Maggette. Good players but not all-stars). But if he becomes a good defender then he'll be an All-Star because we're talking about a guy who can drop 30 pts and play defense! If it happens, great; but I'm not holding my breath.

But let's not discount the fact that Martin is a good player, maybe he's not the kind of player you had in mind, but he is good at what he does. Disregard his injury-battered last season and I see a player who doesn't take many bad shots, doesn't need the ball to be effective, can get guys in foul trouble, and can have a big scoring nights even when his shots aren't falling. In other words, he's a good #2 guy. That leaves us still looking for the #1 but frankly he's not a bad starting point in rebuilding a team.

 

[Bricklayer]

Essentially the anti-Martin crowd is chastising a player who has far exceeded expectations, for not exceeding them further.

Martin is not expected to be an All-Star when he was drafted. He is not paid like an All-Star (his salary is on par with Al Harrington/Corey Maggette. Good players but not all-stars). But if he becomes a good defender then he'll be an All-Star because we're talking about a guy who can drop 30 pts and play defense! If it happens, great; but I'm not holding my breath.

But let's not discount the fact that Martin is a good player, maybe he's not the kind of player you had in mind, but he is good at what he does. Disregard his injury-battered last season and I see a player who doesn't take many bad shots, doesn't need the ball to be effective, can get guys in foul trouble, and can have a big scoring nights even when his shots aren't falling. In other words, he's a good #2 guy. That leaves us still looking for the #1 but frankly he's not a bad starting point in rebuilding a team.

Expectations from when Kevin was a kid are 100% irrelevant, and are frankly thrown out there either as fluffy human interest feel good distractions, or flat out excuses. He is a 26 yr old multimillionaire in mid career at this point. Not a kid. Not a prospect. Nothing but a verteran asset that either helps or hurts, succeeds or fails, is useful or not useful in building an elite team.