"very laughable" is open to different interpretations. If you want to discuss this, we can do it via PMs. For the record, your comment and a couple of others were deleted because they took the thread off-track and into the realm of snipes and counter-snipes and not the discussion of the topic at hand.
lebron or kobe which one?
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The Cavs have a tiny fraction of the talent of L.A. And their defense...aside from LeBron emerging as one of the best in the league, who on that team is a good defender? Z was always known as a softie. could block shots but no defensive impact. Varejao is a pest, but not a stopper and can't block shots. West was never known as a defender until he arrived in Cleveland, and he's undersized. Mo Williams was known as a crap defender in Milwaulkee. You do have whatever is left of Big Ben, but that's a shell. Wally sucks. Gibson is undersized. Just etc. They may play better defense, but its not a talent thing. Its an effort thing, and a temawork thing. Part of that goes right back to LeBron. That team is nothing without him. Just nothing. But with him they will fight to the last behind their leader, and he will accept no less. They all buy in. There is no physical reason whatsoever why L.A. can't be at least as good defensively. And they are certainly vastly superior on offense.
If they played basketball in a one on one contest, there could be cause for thinking about this. However, it is a team sport and Kobe has the better supporting cast and they were playing different teams, so winning or losing in 6 is irrelevant to me.
Many people have given good stats; talked about the age difference; and, discussed their individual qualities. I would agree with most of what has been said about LeBron. Then on top of all that...
I like LeBron. I really really really can't stand Kobe. (I worked really hard at not saying hate.)
It's LeBron for me, and it's not even a contest.
It would've been if that had been Kobe there with that Cavs team instead of LeBron...by the Magic.
The last time Kobe had talent around him at that crappy level it was first round exits every year...every year he even made the playoffs that is. He doesn't elevate scrubs beyond what they are. Nor does he have the patience to lead them. His solution was to largely quit on them, rip them to the press, and demand that either he or they be traded. The difference between Koeb and LeBron with that ame supporting cast might be 20 games.
The last time Kobe had talent around him at that crappy level it was first round exits every year...every year he even made the playoffs that is. He doesn't elevate scrubs beyond what they are. Nor does he have the patience to lead them. His solution was to largely quit on them, rip them to the press, and demand that either he or they be traded. The difference between Koeb and LeBron with that ame supporting cast might be 20 games.
LeBron. But I have to wonder whether his huge amount of minutes, huge usage rate and overall gameface--predicated on slashing to the basket, getting to the free throw line--is going to take a toll on him physically. He's great now, but he entered the league very young and is taking a beating every time he plays a game--to his credit he hasn't had many injury problems (yet), but it might come slightly before it hits his 30s. I think he can develop the jumpshot even further--he's had moments where he's looked unstoppable here, but too often he's also firing blanks because his mechanics aren't that good. But either way, his jumpshot severely lags behind his slashing game, so by his 30s when his physical tools abandon him his efficiency might take somewhat of a hit.
But at their primes, he's clearly better than Kobe--he was basically a one-man team against Cleveland, and he stuffs the stat sheet like none other and has a legendary PER. Kobe's the better jumpshooter and perhaps a more savvy player but he's far from the athlete, passer and rebounder LeBron is.
But at their primes, he's clearly better than Kobe--he was basically a one-man team against Cleveland, and he stuffs the stat sheet like none other and has a legendary PER. Kobe's the better jumpshooter and perhaps a more savvy player but he's far from the athlete, passer and rebounder LeBron is.
LeBron just put up Jordan-at-his-peak play off numbers (pts, rebs, ast, %'s - basically across the board), except that Jordan-at-his-peak had most underrated all time Top50 player on his side - Pippen. When Jordan retired for the first time, Pippen played at an MVP level. Meanwhile, LeBron is playing alongside a) semi retired or soon to be retired Wallace, Ilgauskas, Smith, Szcerbiak, or b) lottery team all stars like West, Williams, Varejao at al.
Kobe is and was great. With one more ring, we're talking top 10 or at least top 12 great. LeBron gets some jewelery and we're talking possibly the greatest player ever. Top 3 at the very least.
Kobe is and was great. With one more ring, we're talking top 10 or at least top 12 great. LeBron gets some jewelery and we're talking possibly the greatest player ever. Top 3 at the very least.
Kobe doesn't elevate his teammates? The guy took Smush Parker and Kwame Brown to the playoffs.....Brian Cook was getting minutes on those teams. Tierre Brown who? Chris Mihm known as a bust in Boston and Cleveland averaged 10 and 7 playing beside him. All of those guys had big roles on those teams and are now glued to other teams benches as a 12th man or not even in the league.
A series ago Big Z, Mo Williams, and Delonte West were known as pretty good players. With former all-star veterans coming off the bench behind them. Yet now they all suck?
A series ago Big Z, Mo Williams, and Delonte West were known as pretty good players. With former all-star veterans coming off the bench behind them. Yet now they all suck?
Those clowns were so demoralizing, they made the 4 year gap between Finals appearances feel like 10 years. They are what make people consider the Spurs the team of this decade despite Los Angeles 3peating, going to the Finals 3 more times, and eliminating them 4x.
Otoh, I see many posts on other sites about how Kobe needs a stacked team to win, while they call Odom, Gasol, Bynum, and Fisher soft out of the other side of their mouths and root for each successive team that LA faces. Getting past the stupid notion that players win titles w/o stacked teams, it's annoying when fans conveniently change up and point at Kobe's help when remembering the claims of how we got screwed in the Shaq trade by getting pothead Odom in return and how Gasol "is 0-12 in the playoffs" and plays no D. Remember that one? Suddenly those two become worldbeaters when Kobe threatens to win a title. This is the grizzled vet with the steel trap mind who flanks Kobe (enough said). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pGd5yRYOMY&feature=channel_page
To cap my rant, I give credit for what LeBron and the Cavs accomplished. I think they played over their heads this year, but they aren't a horrible supporting cast, they are mediocre and the difference between those two terms in pro sports can be vast when the mediocre group plays committed D every night. They ain't the 93 Mavs... They don't even have some of the Keystone Cops that Kobe had to tow to 45 wins in 06. Bron is essentially in Malone and Nique territory, that'll be more evident the longer they fail at landing another star (not named AI). I wonder what they could have done in 07 and 09 if Boozer was a man of his word.
Otoh, I see many posts on other sites about how Kobe needs a stacked team to win, while they call Odom, Gasol, Bynum, and Fisher soft out of the other side of their mouths and root for each successive team that LA faces. Getting past the stupid notion that players win titles w/o stacked teams, it's annoying when fans conveniently change up and point at Kobe's help when remembering the claims of how we got screwed in the Shaq trade by getting pothead Odom in return and how Gasol "is 0-12 in the playoffs" and plays no D. Remember that one? Suddenly those two become worldbeaters when Kobe threatens to win a title. This is the grizzled vet with the steel trap mind who flanks Kobe (enough said). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pGd5yRYOMY&feature=channel_page
To cap my rant, I give credit for what LeBron and the Cavs accomplished. I think they played over their heads this year, but they aren't a horrible supporting cast, they are mediocre and the difference between those two terms in pro sports can be vast when the mediocre group plays committed D every night. They ain't the 93 Mavs... They don't even have some of the Keystone Cops that Kobe had to tow to 45 wins in 06. Bron is essentially in Malone and Nique territory, that'll be more evident the longer they fail at landing another star (not named AI). I wonder what they could have done in 07 and 09 if Boozer was a man of his word.
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Yeah, and Lamar Odom and Caron Butler too.
And he won all of 42, 34, and 45 games with those guys on his way to first round exits and lottery appearances. That is a pretty standard superstar effect -- similar to what Iverson was always doing in his prime, or Wade just got done doing this season. But it is MILES away, forever away from what LeBron did this season, winning 66 games and putting together one of the 20 best regular seasons in NBA history -- 1 game off of the best Shaq/Kobe season (67), and 16 games better than the worst one (50) -- with two newly arrived lottery PGs starting together as a backcourt, a whole slew of decrepit has beens dominating his team's cap, and a completely punchless bench. Nobody has done that. Certainly not Kobe. And there is a reason for that -- Kobe has always suffered from selfishness, and he's always struggled mightily as a leader. LBJ has done neither.
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Kobe did have his fair share of trash that he played with. Same can be said with LBJ's current team. Honestly after LBJ there only rotational players who are worth a damn would be bench players on most teams especially ones as competitive as the Cavs were. If we were to combine the Cavs and Lakers teams into 1 team, you might have the following starting lineup. Gasol-AV or Odom-Lebron-Kobe-Williams. With that being said the only reason Williams would be starting is Fisher is so awful. With that being said Lebron has gotten to the the finals and conference finals and past the first round on multiple occasions with this trash team, even took the Celtics to 7 last year with this team minus Williams. While Kobe didn't get out of the first round.
I think the Cavs overacheived and ran into a matchup knightmare in the Magic. They couldn't match their size or shooting. With that being said I wouldn't have been suprised if the Cavs beat the Lakers with HCA, the matchup issues are different.
Cavs definitely have the monster superstar every team needs. Lebron's peak season if this is it, has passed both Nique and Malone by a mile especially when considering playoff performances.
I don't like Gasol that much but he was an all-nba player this year with similar stats to what he had for the Grizzles. They also have much more talent with respect to the rest of the team. Bynum is hurt but is still a young talented center. Ariza has been good. Farmar, Walton, etc not bad. Obviously it isn't the 1-2 punch most great teams have but it's a very good 1-2 punch in comparison to most teams.
With that being said, neither team has the normal 2 HOFers that most championship teams have. I guess Gasol might eventually be one (due to his international game and Spanish team stuff) and maybe Bynum might eventually get his act together and has HOF talent. But the thing is the Magic only have one potential HOFer as well in Howard, the rest of their team is good but not HOF worthy. They have Hedo and SHard who are near AS level but are missing Nelson who was AS level but hurt.
I think the Cavs overacheived and ran into a matchup knightmare in the Magic. They couldn't match their size or shooting. With that being said I wouldn't have been suprised if the Cavs beat the Lakers with HCA, the matchup issues are different.
Cavs definitely have the monster superstar every team needs. Lebron's peak season if this is it, has passed both Nique and Malone by a mile especially when considering playoff performances.
I don't like Gasol that much but he was an all-nba player this year with similar stats to what he had for the Grizzles. They also have much more talent with respect to the rest of the team. Bynum is hurt but is still a young talented center. Ariza has been good. Farmar, Walton, etc not bad. Obviously it isn't the 1-2 punch most great teams have but it's a very good 1-2 punch in comparison to most teams.
With that being said, neither team has the normal 2 HOFers that most championship teams have. I guess Gasol might eventually be one (due to his international game and Spanish team stuff) and maybe Bynum might eventually get his act together and has HOF talent. But the thing is the Magic only have one potential HOFer as well in Howard, the rest of their team is good but not HOF worthy. They have Hedo and SHard who are near AS level but are missing Nelson who was AS level but hurt.
If I were the Cavs, I would try to keep AV, Delonte, Williams and Hickson and then gut the rest of the team. Try to pair LBJ with a true near superstar like Bosh, Amare, or someone who is available and then fill the rest of the team with 3 point shooters and role players. They are really not that far. They have so much cap tied up with Wallace, Wally and Z right now for them to make moves but all 3 will be either off the books this year or next year. After that they really only have cap tied up with LBJ, Williams and maybe AV if they keep him. They like a lot of teams will have money to make a move but they also have LBJ to sell you with if he stays. Now if he goes all bets are off. But I'd be willing to bet he eventually stays in Cleveland.
Wallace considering retirement.
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If he does end up retiring, this would be a huge plus for them as it would take his contract off the books.
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If he does end up retiring, this would be a huge plus for them as it would take his contract off the books.
But how valuable is he?
He isn't even close to resembling the Wallace in Detroit. His defense and rebounding are way down..he can't score. Can they actually find a team to trade him?
Yeah you can trade him to a team that want him for cap room but they have to get something in return, most likely more garbage and with longer contract.
He isn't even close to resembling the Wallace in Detroit. His defense and rebounding are way down..he can't score. Can they actually find a team to trade him?
Yeah you can trade him to a team that want him for cap room but they have to get something in return, most likely more garbage and with longer contract.
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His value sn't in his playing ability -- he is clearly washed up and were it not for the $14 million reasons not to, I would say he would be right to retire. But his value, and it could be considerable, is as a $14mil ending contract -- that could be a hot commodity for any team looking to shed salary or big salary unwanted players. It ends just in time for the 2010 free agent run too, so any team wanting to take a shot in those sweepstakes would have to be interested.
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Wasn't sure where to post this, but since it could fit in with the debate at hand - decided to post it here. Mods, move if necessary.
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Stern upset with Lebron following ECF post-game actions
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Stern upset with Lebron following ECF post-game actions
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^there's a terrific article on yahoo today about james and his march off the court:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...vLYF?slug=aw-lebron060109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
i for one agree with this writer's viewpoint. while i like james, this was a jerk move, because his rationale of being "a winner" is so incongruous to his actions at the end.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...vLYF?slug=aw-lebron060109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
i for one agree with this writer's viewpoint. while i like james, this was a jerk move, because his rationale of being "a winner" is so incongruous to his actions at the end.
I absolutely want anybody and everybody I play with, or who plays for me, to WANT to do exactly what James did there. If you are not a sore loser, if you don't just want to haul off and punch the guy who just beat your ***, then you're not a sore loser, you're probably just a loser. People complain about pro atheltes not acring about anything but their paychecks -- well this one cared. But now actually going ahead and doing any of that stuff is another question. I understood exactly what LeBron was feeling, it was exactly what he should have been feeling, but you have to master that stuff (unless of course you run into a poor winner who wants to taunt or whatnot, in which case in my book you are perfectly justified in going ahead and punching him after all).
i'd rather the losers want to get better. there's nothing wrong with being a loser if you gave it your all; sometimes you just get beat. no matter how competitive or how good you are, no matter how much you want to win, though, be a good sportsman about losing. channel the desire to want to throttle the other team into a desire to get better the next year.
Absolutely agreed. One of my proudest days as a dad was when my son refused second place medal in little league because the winning team cheated (winning run never crossed the plate - until their coach broke up celebrations and carried the runner back to the home plate). I always try to teach him to be gracious in losses and wins equally, but I was glad to see that winning is still more important to him then the form.
but how would you feel if your son had done that when the winning team did not cheat?
The incident last year was the biggest game of his life so far. I'll let you know what happens in the playoffs this year.