and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...
- Thread starter RiffRaff
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I wouldn't put it all on the players. Defence is part talent, part coaching and part let's call it "heart." Our 2002 team was one of the top 2-3 defensive teams in the league with Bibby, Vlade and Peja. I think with the right coach and more experience for our young players we can actually have a much better defensive nucleus. I think that both JT and Donte can be above average to very good defenders at their positions.
- JT will never be a post intimidator, but he should be a very good man defender and block a few shots.
- Donte reminds me a bit of Lamar Odom in that his length, athleticism and speed for his size allows him to guard big and small and contest a lot of shots as well. He can help congest the middle like LO does for the Lakers.
- Hawes tries hard but needs more weight. I think if he works on his D and bulks up a bit he can be at least an average defender.
- Cisco is already and above average defensive player, but he will never be a pure stopper.
- Kmart and Beno are the only two that I see as relatively lost causes. For whatever reason they don't seem to care about D and both lack some of the physical traits to be good without 100% effort.
The quote I responded to you made it sound like Arenas is a much better player than Parker. I disagree, I think they're pretty close and that Parker is a little better even when Arenas is healthy. By "similar talents" I just meant that they're both about as good as each other at basketball even though their games are different. Like Kobe and Wade are about as good as each other even though they play differently.
I pretty much agree with you, and when I was talking about his ceiling relative to Arenas just meant whether one day he could possibly be a better overall player. He'll probly never be anything close to the shooter/scorer Arenas is. I'm stealing it from nbadraft.net but he sure sounds like a young Kenny Anderson with more ups. Super-quick passer driver with a bad jumper. Kenny Anderson didn't nearly reach his potential. Maybe Jennings will and if he does, he'd be a helluva player.
Personally I see him as the 4th pick for us behind Griffin, Rubio, and Thabeet. I completely understand the downside to him you mentioned and would be pretty bummed if we ended up with him. As much a dropoff as there is between the first two, I think there's an even bigger one from 3 to 4. I really hope we get a top 3 pick.
I pretty much agree with you, and when I was talking about his ceiling relative to Arenas just meant whether one day he could possibly be a better overall player. He'll probly never be anything close to the shooter/scorer Arenas is. I'm stealing it from nbadraft.net but he sure sounds like a young Kenny Anderson with more ups. Super-quick passer driver with a bad jumper. Kenny Anderson didn't nearly reach his potential. Maybe Jennings will and if he does, he'd be a helluva player.
Personally I see him as the 4th pick for us behind Griffin, Rubio, and Thabeet. I completely understand the downside to him you mentioned and would be pretty bummed if we ended up with him. As much a dropoff as there is between the first two, I think there's an even bigger one from 3 to 4. I really hope we get a top 3 pick.
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Well, you have to walk before you can run. Ummm, well, maybe were actually in the, you have to crawl before you walk phase. Giving birth is really painfull (I haven't personally experienced it, except vicariously), but, thats where we are right now. One common denominator all new borns have (except mine, of course) is that their ugly. And right now, we have an ugly team. Yeah, its probably a bad metaphor, and to some its more like visiting the past.
Not being into bad nostalgia, I prefer to look to the future. Wow, there's that pain again. Bricky's right! There's only a handful of players we can move forward with. The good news is, they're all young and hold promise. Its a good start, with the key word being start. Were finally moving in a different direction. I can't tell you its the right direction, but for the moment, it feels OK. My point of view is subject to change.
Not being into bad nostalgia, I prefer to look to the future. Wow, there's that pain again. Bricky's right! There's only a handful of players we can move forward with. The good news is, they're all young and hold promise. Its a good start, with the key word being start. Were finally moving in a different direction. I can't tell you its the right direction, but for the moment, it feels OK. My point of view is subject to change.
That's roughly my hope for Donte as well...or more accurately, I hope he's Robert Horry. Long guys who can defend and knock down shots are just money come playoff time. Derek Mckey being another name.
I think another part of the equation is that even if you don't have great individual defenders defense is something you can learn together as a team, and a big part of that is just committing to the system. That Kings team had just come off a crushing playoff loss and was extremely focused and motivated. I think that was the main key to the defensive success.
I think another part of the equation is that even if you don't have great individual defenders defense is something you can learn together as a team, and a big part of that is just committing to the system. That Kings team had just come off a crushing playoff loss and was extremely focused and motivated. I think that was the main key to the defensive success.
I agree. I think you described what I was trying to communicate about the 2002 team more articulatley than I did.
As for Greene, I would love if he hit as many clutch shots as Horry, but I hope he can defend/play more like LO during the other 46 minutes of the game. Without all the boneheaded plays.
Speaking of which, did anyone reading this see the first Lakers game this year where Lamar jumped and then passed the ball right to a teammate who was standing and cheering on the bench. YouTube it if you haven't, it's one of the funniest boneheaded plays of the year.
As for Greene, I would love if he hit as many clutch shots as Horry, but I hope he can defend/play more like LO during the other 46 minutes of the game. Without all the boneheaded plays.
Speaking of which, did anyone reading this see the first Lakers game this year where Lamar jumped and then passed the ball right to a teammate who was standing and cheering on the bench. YouTube it if you haven't, it's one of the funniest boneheaded plays of the year.
I love Curry.
Reports say that after Rubio and Griffin are gone, high lottery teams are going to try and trade down big time .. we have number 21 and our second rounder to trade back up into the top 10 .. Not sure that would get it done but it would get it close... That being said ..
If we draft Griffin, I trade up to also grab Curry or Jennings.
If we draft Rubio, I trade up back into the lottery to grab Thabeet.
If we get screwed into the 3rd pick, I draft Thabeet and trade up for Curry or jennings.
You don't know the value of a player to another team until you propose something to them. He may not be worth the 2nd overall pick, but in this weak draft he could be over valued. He's proven he's a damn good player and based on league wide perceptions of him you'd be surprise what we could possibly get for him. The 2nd pick? Probably not, but if you package him with one of our later picks it could get the job done.
The top 2 in this draft are generally being regarded in a different talent echelon than the rest of the draft. It's typically hard to trade for picks that high without trading an all-star type talent in return, and Thompson, while a nice young player, he doesn't have great upside and projects more as a good role playing starter, not a player at or near franchise level which Rubio and Griffin are considered to be by most. I mean, if Thompson is so highly regarded then why didn't he make the rookie all-star team or either of the all-rookie teams? Not saying I agree with it, but it doesn't appear he's that highly thought of around the league. Look what it took to get Tyson Chandler in '01, it took a proven 20-10-2 player. Teams hold on to top picks tightly, even in mediocre drafts. The one thing that has made them more likely to trade those picks are when you are trading a pick that's a few spots down or something like that. I doubt the 23rd and 31st are really so enticing along with Thompson for the no.2 pick. History simply doesn't support it.
Here's where I have a problem. If you want to hypothesize about his current value around the league, I have no problem with that. I may or may not agree with it, but no problem. But when you make a blanket statement that Thompson has no upside, then I'm afraid I have to take umbarage. What that means is that he's a finnished product as he stands right now. He's not going to improve and get any better. If thats what your saying, then its totally ridiculous.
Nothing frustrates me more than when people make statements as though there facts. I don't know how high his upside is. There are too many factors involved. After next year, we'll have a better idea, but I probably think its higher than you do. Which is fine. I like being right. But its speculation. My me, and by you. Not fact!
Nothing frustrates me more than when people make statements as though there facts. I don't know how high his upside is. There are too many factors involved. After next year, we'll have a better idea, but I probably think its higher than you do. Which is fine. I like being right. But its speculation. My me, and by you. Not fact!
I would say JT actually has pretty good upside. He has shown major advancements through the year and in the end has shown that he can soon score at least 18 points per game and grab at least 8 rebounds per game. In his prime I think he definitely has a chance of becoming a decent all star. I'm not saying he will, I'm saying it's possible.
I have to disagree about JT not having a great upside, and saying Rubio and Griffin are franchise level players. While I love Rubio and want the Kings to get him, neither he nor Griffin have proven anything in the nba. Its all speculation at this point.
But JT has a season under his belt, and improved considerably between the first and last games of the year. He consistently was getting double doubles at the end of the year, and against pretty good competition. While I don't think he sould have made the all-rookie team, he has gotten better, and has shown no reason to believe he won't continue to improve. Saying JT "doesn't have a good upside" is a little premature at this point, given he is only 22 and has played only one year in the league. Saying Rubio and Griffin are "franchise level talent" is way to premature. They both have a lot of talent, but also have a lot to prove before annointing them franchise level talent.
But JT has a season under his belt, and improved considerably between the first and last games of the year. He consistently was getting double doubles at the end of the year, and against pretty good competition. While I don't think he sould have made the all-rookie team, he has gotten better, and has shown no reason to believe he won't continue to improve. Saying JT "doesn't have a good upside" is a little premature at this point, given he is only 22 and has played only one year in the league. Saying Rubio and Griffin are "franchise level talent" is way to premature. They both have a lot of talent, but also have a lot to prove before annointing them franchise level talent.
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Call me picky, but yes. You have a tendecy to state things as though they're facts, when they're not. You spend a lot of time watching players, as do I. We both post our opinions on said players. There are people that don't have the time, interest, or inclination to do so. So some of them just may be stupid enough to think we actually know what were talking about. So I think its important for them to know that its just our personal opinion, especially when our personal opinion differs from someone else's.
I also think that if one is going to make a blanket statement about a player, he should give reasons why he thinks what he thinks. Otherwise its just like drive by journalism. Just throw some mudd at the wall and see what sticks.
I also think that if one is going to make a blanket statement about a player, he should give reasons why he thinks what he thinks. Otherwise its just like drive by journalism. Just throw some mudd at the wall and see what sticks.
Well, first of all he's going to be 23 years old this offseason. He's a good player, but he's not especially great at anything, Lacks advanced footwork/post game, pull up J, creating his own offense, defense, defensive IQ, he's a good athlete but not great athlete. It's not that I don't think he'll be a good player, I just think that him becoming an all-star type player is a bit of a stretch and I don't think many around the league see that as his potential. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think we've all seen the growing perception (whether it's true in JT"s case or not) about players that come out their senior year and don't play like Brandon Roy. And it's never premature to evaluate a player's upside, because that's what scouting is, watching a player and trying to predict what they'll become and the likelihood of becoming it.
First of all, I said "at or near franchise level", and I didn't say that's what they are, I said that's the perception of them by many. Players who can be main cogs on a contending team, a no.2 or 3 best player on a championship team. That's what I think the perception is. Regardless of whether you agree with that, it's undeniable that there is definitely a growing distinction between Griffin/Rubio and the rest of the draft.
Now, if you want to argue that a package centered around him for the 3rd pick and lower, I might be more open to that possibility. But for Rubio? No, I don't see it as being a realistic possibility.
First of all, I said "at or near franchise level", and I didn't say that's what they are, I said that's the perception of them by many. Players who can be main cogs on a contending team, a no.2 or 3 best player on a championship team. That's what I think the perception is. Regardless of whether you agree with that, it's undeniable that there is definitely a growing distinction between Griffin/Rubio and the rest of the draft.
Now, if you want to argue that a package centered around him for the 3rd pick and lower, I might be more open to that possibility. But for Rubio? No, I don't see it as being a realistic possibility.
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I agree with the assessment of Thompson. I don't understand the need to inflate our current player's values. I REALLY like Thompson, but hoping for him to be an all-star is hoping for disapppointment. And no team is trading Rubio for him. You can't account for stupidity, but the second that a team ha Rubio on their roster they have a trade chip that could bring back a lot more than Jason Thompson.