Rubio renegotiating buyout may enter in 2009

[gvucko]

Uh........ no. Sorry. That's just nuts. The NBA has the "crowd pleasing attractive game" and the Euros play better defense?

What alternate world do you live in?

Other than Andre Kirlenko and to a much, much lesser extent Andres Nocioni, what Euro league players have come over and been good defenders? They're terrible! I don't care how many screens they call out, they're not guarding anyone.

Please read my post again.

Basketball is a TEAM sport. You can only win by playing team defense. Like it or not, most NBA scorers can not be stopped with 1 on 1 defense. But you can limit them by playing TEAM defense.

I don't recal Toni Kukoc horrid 1 on 1 defense hurting Chicago Bulls. Nor the Luc Longeys...

Yes, NBA is superior league in every sense but strategy (and team basketball) playing due (and this is the only reason) having not enough time practicing it.

Maybe if I put it this way. Sacrameto Kings rooster would play a lot better defense if they spent a season in Eurolegue.

Thus Ricky Rubio gets enormous experience and knowledge being and developing (having actually the time to develop and learn).

And I live in a world where the best world players by far (12 of them per team) got robbed of gold medal by slow, unathletic, Europlaying basketball teams for nearly a decade.

Why? Because they got time and played team basketball. They were able to defend against a team of unstoppable superstars. With a team that their star players are second or third fiddle in NBA and half of the rooster filled with guys who never even got to be drafted by NBA team).

Hope my message got trough this time.

 

[nbrans]

Please read my post again.

Basketball is a TEAM sport. You can only win by playing team defense. Like it or not, most NBA scorers can not be stopped with 1 on 1 defense. But you can limit them by playing TEAM defense.

I don't recal Toni Kukoc horrid 1 on 1 defense hurting Chicago Bulls. Nor the Luc Longeys...

Yes, NBA is superior league in every sense but strategy (and team basketball) playing due (and this is the only reason) having not enough time practicing it.

Maybe if I put it this way. Sacrameto Kings rooster would play a lot better defense if they spent a season in Eurolegue.

Thus Ricky Rubio gets enormous experience and knowledge being and developing (having actually the time to develop and learn).

And I live in a world where the best world players by far (12 of them per team) got robbed of gold medal by slow, unathletic, Europlaying basketball teams for nearly a decade.

Why? Because they got time and played team basketball. They were able to defend against a team of unstoppable superstars. With a team that their star players are second or third fiddle in NBA and half of the rooster filled with guys who never even got to be drafted by NBA team).

Hope my message got trough this time.

No, I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it matters much. We all know that European players come over with good fundamentals, including team defense. And I also know that good fundamentals will occasionally beat a team that's more athletic/talented, whether that's Greece beating USA or Princeton beating UCLA.

But we're talking about preparation for the NBA. All you have to do to see the difference in athleticism/defense is to watch that Rubio video I linked to, and then watch Rubio try and bring the ball up the court against Jason Kidd in the Olympics. Kidd isn't even that great of a defender anymore, but Rubio had to labor to get the ball up the court against him.

I'm sorry, team defense is great and everything, but when your 5 defenders aren't very good it doesn't really matter how many screens you call out and how people slide over. It doesn't prepare you for facing an athletic man defender like Chris Paul.

The NCAA isn't always the best preparation, but James Harden, for instance, has had to go up against Daniel Hackett and Jrue Holiday, whose individual efforts on defense are up there with what NBA players can do. Rubio isn't facing anything like that. He's facing slower players he can get around, and then yes, maybe the team defense is better, but watch Rubio in the Olympics against USA -- he was hardly able to penetrate and was turned into a perimeter player.

 

[Aenadin]

well thats KIDD hes a pretty good defender and has vast knowledge and stuff hes a pretty cerebral player too but some players in college just bolt around using athlethicism

experience level kidd is waaaaayyyyy more advanced than ricky but then again you cant expect rubio to embarass kidd right away... an 18 yr old making kdd look like an idiot lol

 

[nbrans]

well thats KIDD hes a pretty good defender and has vast knowledge and stuff hes a pretty cerebral player too but some players in college just bolt around using athlethicism

experience level kidd is waaaaayyyyy more advanced than ricky but then again you cant expect rubio to embarass kidd right away... an 18 yr old making kdd look like an idiot lol

It doesn't take vast knowledge and a cerebral player to guard a guy as he's bringing the ball up the court, in fact, many perfectly dumb college players figure out how to do it extremely well.

By the way, in that Rubio video he's going up against Corey L. Brewer, as in the 34 year old former Oklahoma guard.

 

[HighTopKicks]

No, I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it matters much. We all know that European players come over with good fundamentals, including team defense. And I also know that good fundamentals will occasionally beat a team that's more athletic/talented, whether that's Greece beating USA or Princeton beating UCLA.

But we're talking about preparation for the NBA. All you have to do to see the difference in athleticism/defense is to watch that Rubio video I linked to, and then watch Rubio try and bring the ball up the court against Jason Kidd in the Olympics. Kidd isn't even that great of a defender anymore, but Rubio had to labor to get the ball up the court against him.

I'm sorry, team defense is great and everything, but when your 5 defenders aren't very good it doesn't really matter how many screens you call out and how people slide over. It doesn't prepare you for facing an athletic man defender like Chris Paul.

The NCAA isn't always the best preparation, but James Harden, for instance, has had to go up against Daniel Hackett and Jrue Holiday, whose individual efforts on defense are up there with what NBA players can do. Rubio isn't facing anything like that. He's facing slower players he can get around, and then yes, maybe the team defense is better, but watch Rubio in the Olympics against USA -- he was hardly able to penetrate and was turned into a perimeter player.

Could be right, but:
1) the clip you refer to isn't from a Euroleague game, it's from a Spanish team game, and isn't typical of the competition in the Euroleague

2) Before Rubio got hurt in the Gold Medal game (5 mins. into the 1st quarter), the went man to man with Kidd. He beat him off the dribble, when down the lane through the heart of the US defense, and finished with a layup.

I know you're aware of Rubio's injury in that game because you & I have discussed it before. So, continuing to use that game to make your arguement, does nothing to strengthen your case or improve your credibility.

 

[nbrans]

Could be right, but:
1) the clip you refer to isn't from a Euroleague game, it's from a Spanish team game, and isn't typical of the competition in the Euroleague

2) Before Rubio got hurt in the Gold Medal game (5 mins. into the 1st quarter), the went man to man with Kidd. He beat him off the dribble, when down the lane through the heart of the US defense, and finished with a layup.

I know you're aware of Rubio's injury in that game because you & I have discussed it before. So, continuing to use that game to make your arguement, does nothing to strengthen your case or improve your credibility.

First off, yes, I'm aware of that play. It was a really nice move. It was the only one though.

And how in the heck does a wrist injury affect your feet? I can understand if it affected his shooting, but it's not like it made him run slower. Maybe his wrist injury also caused his mouth to run at the end of the game for the technical foul, putting the game away for the US?

 

[Oprostaj]

Maybe his wrist injury also caused his mouth to run at the end of the game for the technical foul, putting the game away for the US?

I'm thinking that might be because he was 17 and playing on the biggest basketball stage in the world, was frustrated and lost his cool? Players twice his age do this (see Wallace, Rasheed and numerous others) so besides nitpicking, not really sure what you're doing there.

A wrist injury would make it impossible to drive through traffic and finish. Especially one that required immobilization and surgery. This guy won't blow by anybody, you made your point. Saying he has feet made of lead is just not true. He will hold his own in the NBA. We don't need a blazingly quick guy who can score. We need someone to run the damn team. We can't get the next LBJ in this draft. We can fill a need. Everybody has shortcomings, but Rubio fills our need best. Hell, if there was a guy who was as good of a passer as him on here who was faster, i'd be all over him.

 

[asakkings]

First off, yes, I'm aware of that play. It was a really nice move. It was the only one though.

And how in the heck does a wrist injury affect your feet? I can understand if it affected his shooting, but it's not like it made him run slower. Maybe his wrist injury also caused his mouth to run at the end of the game for the technical foul, putting the game away for the US?

You usually make really good comments but this one doesnt make much sense. To dribble a basketball esp in a finals game against the best team in the world you would need good function of your wrist. If there is discomfirt in dribbling the ball you wont be able to blow by anybody because you wont have the handles.

 

[kennadog]

Just a note: In the live Knigs Rap blog on sacbee.com this AM, Sam Amick said the word he and others around the league are getting is that Rubio won't declare for the draft this year.

 

[nbrans]

You usually make really good comments but this one doesnt make much sense. To dribble a basketball esp in a finals game against the best team in the world you would need good function of your wrist. If there is discomfirt in dribbling the ball you wont be able to blow by anybody because you wont have the handles.

I take the point on the driving, but what I was trying to say is that he looked slow before the injury and slow after the injury. I think I have a pretty good sense of what he's capable of in terms of dribbling and passing. My main concern is with his athleticism.

 

[rainmaker]

Just a note: In the live Knigs Rap blog on sacbee.com this AM, Sam Amick said the word he and others around the league are getting is that Rubio won't declare for the draft this year.

True Hoop on espn said all indications from Rubio's agent are that he will enter the draft, contradicting other reports from europe.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

If so, I say keep the 1st pick in the draft and get him.

 

[HighTopKicks]

First off, yes, I'm aware of that play. It was a really nice move. It was the only one though.

And how in the heck does a wrist injury affect your feet? I can understand if it affected his shooting, but it's not like it made him run slower. Maybe his wrist injury also caused his mouth to run at the end of the game for the technical foul, putting the game away for the US?

If you noticed, I highlighted two sections in your post. The first related to the clip you mentioned and corresponded to my #1 comment.

The 2nd highlighted comment of yours, corresponded to my 2nd comment, where I pointed out Rubio had an injured wrist. It was pertenent because your comment was about Rubio's ability to Penetrate

watch Rubio in the Olympics against USA -- he was hardly able to penetrate and was turned into a perimeter player.

Why you again turned this around, into a totally different arguement, I don't know.

And how in the heck does a wrist injury affect your feet? I can understand if it affected his shooting, but it's not like it made him run slower. Maybe his wrist injury also caused his mouth to run at the end of the game for the technical foul, putting the game away for the US

The ability to penetrate with the ball requires the use of the hands & wrist to control the ball while you move with your feet. I tried to stay within the confines of your statement, so as not to be seen as attacking you personally.

I and a lot of others aren't buying your athletism over talent arguement, at least where it comes to the PG position. But, how often does everyone agree;-) And, I believe that the winners in these discussions, are the people that learn the most. Not the people that are proven right in the end. Pointing out the portions of examples that prove your side while ignoring the points of the same example that weaken you side, doesn't fool anyone, and certainly doesn't prove your case.

Let's just say that since Rubio got hurt in the first 5 mins. of the Gold Medal game, that that game wasn't a good example to judge his abilities. And, if we're going to evaluate his highlight clips, we should at least use clips where he plays against the best Euroleague teams & not the lessor quality Spainish league teams.

 

[nbrans]

Fair enough on the post-injury driving. I'll defer on that.

But for the record, I'm not saying athleticism over talent/skill. I'm saying athleticism AND skill. You won't see me agitating for someone like Al-Farouq Aminu or Earl Clark, who is all athleticism and no skill. I just want the best combination of athleticism AND skill, because skill alone doesn't get you very far. You need both to be a star in the NBA.

 

[Oprostaj]

True as that may be, it has to be a balance - Teauge would have been dynamite in the Princeton offense the Kings used to run. He has the ability to bring the ball on the floor, but would not have to be the primary ball handler. I'm just afraid that if you take him out of his comfort zone, you will take away what makes him so great. I hate using Ben Gordon again, but this time just in the situation, not as player v player.

When Gordon was used PRIMARILY as a scoring threat, a 6th man off the bench (a'la Jason Terry) he was a monster. If you watched this man, he was unstoppable. Bobby Jackson with a much better shot. Fearless. Won 6th man of the year easily, and single handedly won at least 5 games for the Bulls that year. All of a sudden the brass decided that, hey, if he's that good, why not put him in the starting lineup? Unfortunately, he did not have adequate PG skills, so what do you do? SG of course. But he was undersized, gave up more on D than he contributed on O because of the energy he used to defend and contain opposing SGs. He lost what made him so special. This is my horror story about Teauge. I know, I know... worst case scenario, and Teauge is more athletic then Ben. But still, I am just afraid when score first athletic guys that are going to have to play out of position in the NBA are drafted. Especially with the #1 draft pick that annoints them as the "savior", because lets face it, the #1 draft pick has to be exactly that unless you are being run by Reinsdorf.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

In regard to the original topic of this thread (that Ricky may be entering this draft):
Ricky Rubio, PG, Spain
Rubio isn't dominating in Spain, but he's getting better and better by the game. A number of NBA scouts and executives are just getting back from Spain and, after watching Rubio play in Copa del Rey, I haven't heard one that doesn't have him ranked in the top three. Most of them have him at No. 2 now, ahead of Georgetown's Greg Monroe.
Rubio's position in the top three is significant for one big reason: He has a huge buyout from his team in Spain. To afford the buyout, he really needs to be a top-three pick. Publicly, the mood has been pessimistic that Rubio would be in this draft, with a series of international stories claiming Rubio is staying overseas and other draft sites pulling him from their 2009 mock drafts. Privately, his agent, Dan Fegan, has been working on this for months, and we've been getting the same signals all along: Rubio is entering this year's draft.
Rubio still needs to work on his jumper and get stronger, but his floor leadership and energy are just remarkable. He's a special playmaker.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=FordDraftWatch-090227

 

[Vlade4GM]

Make it happen Fegan, we'll try to do our part with the lins.

I don't think it's fair that you sum up Rubio's athleticism based strictly his jumping and speed/quickness. He's not a very high leaper, and he's not a speedster (although I think he's got better speed than people here are admitting) but he has great coordination and speed/direction changing ability which are without a doubt athletic attributes; things people often ignore. The ability to change speeds and directions well is the difference between Vince Carter and Kobe in many ways.

I think getting into an NBA strength and condition program is going to do a lot for his game. Not to mention getting a personal coach to work with him on his shooting. I've been looking at his shot and while it's never going to be great unless he successful restructured his mechanics from scratch, he can improve it a lot just by getting stronger and following through better.

 

[ParniValjak]

Make it happen Fegan, we'll try to do our part with the lins.

I don't think it's fair that you sum up Rubio's athleticism based strictly his jumping and speed/quickness. He's not a very high leaper, and he's not a speedster (although I think he's got better speed than people here are admitting) but he has great coordination and speed/direction changing ability which are without a doubt athletic attributes; things people often ignore. The ability to change speeds and directions well is the difference between Vince Carter and Kobe in many ways.

I think getting into an NBA strength and condition program is going to do a lot for his game. Not to mention getting a personal coach to work with him on his shooting. I've been looking at his shot and while it's never going to be great unless he successful restructured his mechanics from scratch, he can improve it a lot just by getting stronger and following through better.

Coachie worked wonders with KMarts shot. I am sure he can make Rubio's shot much more respectable. Forget the mechanics because they really don't matter if player shoots a good percentage.

Look at KMart, he has one of the ugliest mechanics you will ever see but he is shooting reasonable percentage from him jumpers.

If he comes here, Rubio's shot will be tweaked a bit to make it a bit more effective. He is a talented kid who wants to improve and listens to his coaches. IMHO, Coachie can do wonders for him!

 

[Aenadin]

Coachie worked wonders with KMarts shot. I am sure he can make Rubio's shot much more respectable. Forget the mechanics because they really don't matter if player shoots a good percentage.

Look at KMart, he has one of the ugliest mechanics you will ever see but he is shooting reasonable percentage from him jumpers.

If he comes here, Rubio's shot will be tweaked a bit to make it a bit more effective. He is a talented kid who wants to improve and listens to his coaches. IMHO, Coachie can do wonders for him!

kmarts shot doesnt look THAT ugly............

compared to marion's and noahs lol

 

[kennadog]

I understand the "athleticism" being discussed here and I tend to agree that you aren't going to improve quickness much after 18 or so.

What I think is interesting, is that there are some "abilities" particularly important to a PG that I also believe are inherited abilties that can't really be improved upon much. A person either has them or not. They are components I think make up at least part of what is termed "court vision."

I think at least two/three innate things go into this. One is actual vision, probably how much peripheral vision a person has would be important. People are not created equal. Great peripheral vision is in the genes. You can make up for some of that with smarts and experience, but you can't improve it.

The other is just something in how a person's brain function and I'm not sure how to put it into words. I suspect that some players can just see what's on court and see possiblites developing faster than most others around them. Like their mind is constantly "taking pictures" and analyzing it faster than anybody else. They just get the gestalt or whole picture of the moment in a flash.

Also having fast reflexes can't be improved much.

I think CP has all of those qualities, too.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Coachie worked wonders with KMarts shot. I am sure he can make Rubio's shot much more respectable. Forget the mechanics because they really don't matter if player shoots a good percentage.

Look at KMart, he has one of the ugliest mechanics you will ever see but he is shooting reasonable percentage from him jumpers.

If he comes here, Rubio's shot will be tweaked a bit to make it a bit more effective. He is a talented kid who wants to improve and listens to his coaches. IMHO, Coachie can do wonders for him!

No, it definitely matters where you release your shot and and how quick you release it, there may be ways to change your game to work around it but it definitely matters because it affects where and when you can get your shot off, percentages only say how efficient you are at whatever it is you do. The slower your release, the more time your defender has to recover. The lower the release (this has to to do with body elevation i.e. jump height as well) the easier it is to block your shot.

 

[nbrans]

Coachie worked wonders with KMarts shot. I am sure he can make Rubio's shot much more respectable. Forget the mechanics because they really don't matter if player shoots a good percentage.

Look at KMart, he has one of the ugliest mechanics you will ever see but he is shooting reasonable percentage from him jumpers.

If he comes here, Rubio's shot will be tweaked a bit to make it a bit more effective. He is a talented kid who wants to improve and listens to his coaches. IMHO, Coachie can do wonders for him!

It's much, much more than a Marion/Childress/Martin type problem. His shooting style -- essentially flat footed, winding up, heaving the ball, no jumping -- precludes him from shooting off the dribble well entirely. It's not a matter of it being ugly. It's just completely wrong and detrimental to his game. How he got this far without being forced to change it is positively baffling.

Tony Parker has tweaked his jumper since he came into the league, resulting in a higher arc and better shooting percentages. Rubio would have to start from scratch.

And I've never, ever, seen someone completely rebuild their jump shot from scratch this late in the game, which is what Rubio would need to do to learn to shoot off the dribble. Webber rebuilt his free throw, but that's a free throw. It's way different than the instincts that come from shooting in a game. Anything's possible, and he could always get to where Kidd is now -- basically shooting only when wide open. But he's going to be limited until he changes it.

 

[Oprostaj]

there are many players who have had solid solid careers without a great off the dribble jump shot, and it can be tweaked late (how the hell can it be late he's only 18... he's just been playing for a while but he's still young, freshman in college for the love of god) in the career, especially if you are not truly a jumpshooter. He's never been asked to carry the scoring load, and while it would take a couple of years, spending HOURS in the gym being taught the right way would work wonders for him.

 

[nbrans]

there are many players who have had solid solid careers without a great off the dribble jump shot, and it can be tweaked late (how the hell can it be late he's only 18... he's just been playing for a while but he's still young, freshman in college for the love of god) in the career, especially if you are not truly a jumpshooter. He's never been asked to carry the scoring load, and while it would take a couple of years, spending HOURS in the gym being taught the right way would work wonders for him.

Name someone who has rebuilt their jumper after 18 years of age.

 

[kingzallday]

What are you talking about? By the looks of this video he has great form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcuSiKd8p94&feature=PlayList&p=CFEF824082CF2F21&playnext=1&index=1

 

[Oprostaj]

Name someone who has rebuilt their jumper after 18 years of age.

I never said I could. All I have to go on is personal experience. I've played in Division III for two years, and I saw kids entering in from high school (holy schmoly Batman, they were 18) with terrible mechanics because they were never taught how to shoot, all they did was run and dunk. They were able to alter their mechanics working with our coach. All it is, is repetition. There was an article on ESPN about two weeks back, when Jose Calderon was about to beat the most FTs made in a row, where he talks how the coach altered his shot by making him shoot with his right side of the body next to a brick wall, so if his elbow flails out it scrapes the wall. He also said how he tied a rubber band around his elbow to his hip to give him added strenght on his follow through.

You're an intelligent poster, I've been here long enough to know that. Please don't get into petty arguments like that. You know that a shot can be altered. Rubio is a SENIOR IN HIGH SCHOOL. Get over the hate. I'm not saying he's going to be the next great thing in the NBA. I'm saying he fills our need and is a unique player that we should take a chance on. What's the worst that could happen, we suck? Oh wait...

 

[Entity]

Name someone who has rebuilt their jumper after 18 years of age.

I hope he can rebuild his defense. he is worse han Beno. getting beat off the dribble by the euros will not bode well against the NBA pgs.

 

[nbrans]

You're an intelligent poster, I've been here long enough to know that. Please don't get into petty arguments like that. You know that a shot can be altered. Rubio is a SENIOR IN HIGH SCHOOL. Get over the hate. I'm not saying he's going to be the next great thing in the NBA. I'm saying he fills our need and is a unique player that we should take a chance on. What's the worst that could happen, we suck? Oh wait...

I'm not saying these things because I'm a hater, and I feel like all in all I've been pretty balanced in his skills and abilities (with, admittedly, the occasional snark). I've put him up there with Paul, Nash, Magic et al with his passing, which I don't take lightly. And I've repeated often that I could be very wrong about all of this, because smart people think this kid is the greatest thing since cheerleaders.

I'm just calling it like I see it. And I see:

1) a shot that needs to be overhauled, not merely tweaked. This isn't a matter of Rubio tucking in his elbow or gaining a higher release point or just shooting it anyway and shooting for a higher percentage. He needs to completely change the way he shoots so that he can shoot while jumping and on the move, he needs to speed up his release.. he basically needs to start from scratch and 2) I've never seen a college or professional athlete completely and successfully overhaul their shot. I mentioned Webber and his free throws, which is the closest thing I could think of.

I know it's possible. If anyone can do it it's someone as coordinated as Rubio. But when is he going to do it? Everyone talks about how he's been in professional leagues since he was 14. When is he going to take the time to re-build his jumper? You need almost uninterrupted time in the gym to just do it over and over and over and over. He's not going to have that anytime soon.

 

[Oprostaj]

I agree it's not easy to do. I just don't think it's impossible. The one main thing he has to his advantage is his age and the fact that he absolutely doesn't have to rely on his jumpshot to have a career in the NBA. All it has to do is be passable. If the best he becomes is Jason Kidd, I'll be more than happy. I don't think he's the savior, or the best thing since Maxim, but he is what's needed for our team. Again, he is basically a high school senior. I fully believe it can be done. Let's say, for all intents and purposes Rubio gets drafted by the Kings. Over the summer, lock his *** in the gym with a shooting coach. I guarantee after 3 months of 12 hour day sessions doing it the correct way, he becomes at worst, a liability shooting the ball (he is right now anyway, so what can it hurt?) Figure we're at least a couple of years away from being competitive, and by then he should have a good foothold. Again, he is a HS senior. I've seen shots from young players altered. All it is, is repetition. Again, maybe it won't work, maybe it will. I just think we can't, and shouldn't invest more time in undersized shoot first combo guards with questionable skills. His skills might be more transferrable to the NBA simply because of his athletic ability, but Rubio is not exactly a 7' slow typical C. He can still get faster and stronger with better and tougher training. He has not his his physical peak yet. He still has a couple of years.

I do get your point, however, and agree that he has major questions. We've hit rock bottom with conventional thinking. Time for a change.

Also, an observation. Kmart can't really shoot off the drible. Slow wind up, shoots from the hip and easy to block. What saves him is the fact that he's fast. There is a multitute of NBA players that don't have "correct" or "fundamental" jumpshots. Maybe Rubio's doesn't have to be from scratch. Who knows...