Teague vs. Rubio

[nbrans]

They all got A LOT faster from age 17 to 22. That's why they went from not making the Olympics, to winning it. They'd have looked silly in the 100M dash when they were high school juniors.

I'm not saying Rubio will turn into Usain Bolt or even Chris Paul, but he doesn't need to. He's 6'4. Can't he just be GP quick (who really wasn't that quick), or Nash, or Hinrich, or Deron Williams? Combine that with great b-ball IQ on O and D, and he'll be great. I'll bet he's as quick as at least a couple of those guys at the same age. If he's not quicker than Udrih, I'll bet he's quicker than 17-18 Udrih.

I mean come on, you're the one holding onto the argument that a guy's speed is almost entirely developed by the time they're a high school junior. Its just not true.

That's precisely what I'm saying. Almost entirely developed by the time they reach 18. As in, you can improve your quickness a little bit from 18 on, but not much.

Bolt couldn't have won the Olympics at age 18, but I'll bet he was already faster than 99.99% of everyone else in the world. And to the naked eye there's no way you would be able to distinguish between how fast he looked at 18 and how fast he looked at 22. The difference is a matter of inches and feet after 100 meters. It's not something you'd notice on a basketball court.

 

[hammystyle]

That's precisely what I'm saying. Almost entirely developed by the time they reach 18. As in, you can improve your quickness a little bit from 18 on, but not much.

Bolt couldn't have won the Olympics at age 18, but I'll bet he was already faster than 99.99% of everyone else in the world. And to the naked eye there's no way you would be able to distinguish between how fast he looked at 18 and how fast he looked at 22. The difference is a matter of inches and feet after 100 meters. It's not something you'd notice on a basketball court.

Ok, well there is no basis for your argument. Its wrong. Bolt and Gatlin would have been 4-5 steps behind at age 18, at 22 they were 4-5 steps ahead. That's really significant. However, you probly couldn't tell that just by watching them sprint, but you can certainly tell that in the context of a race. Just like if Rubio picks up a step you wouldn't see it in an empty gym, but you'd see it when he turns the corner on a guard or keeps his man in front of him.

 

[Oprostaj]

It's not something you'd notice on a basketball court.

If this is the case, why is the fact that Rubio is not CP3 quick a reason to crap all over him? I don't want to quote all the posts that say that his quickness will be his death in the NBA, and while I fully understand that many here don't hate him, this argument is ridicilous. He will be fine in the NBA. He's still a kid that is not even close to his athletic peak. No, he won't get blazing speed in the next 5 years. He will be stronger, smarter, and hes, a bit quicker if he works out more. Again, who is CP3 quick in this leauge? Tony Parker? Also, the Hornets are not exactly the Suns, the only time CP3 uses his quickness is on fast breaks. How about the Suns? SSOL offense with Steve "Usain Bolt" Nash running the point. Seems to have worked out okay. Holy ****, didn't he win a couple of MVPs...? Deserved or not, byproduct of the system or not, much better shooter than Rubio or not, you DON'T need to be the fastest guy on the court to be a great PG. There are freaks of nature out there, but I'd rather take a prototypical PG over a SG in a PG body. I've seen too many of those flame out.

 

[nbrans]

If this is the case, why is the fact that Rubio is not CP3 quick a reason to crap all over him? I don't want to quote all the posts that say that his quickness will be his death in the NBA, and while I fully understand that many here don't hate him, this argument is ridicilous. He will be fine in the NBA. He's still a kid that is not even close to his athletic peak. No, he won't get blazing speed in the next 5 years. He will be stronger, smarter, and hes, a bit quicker if he works out more. Again, who is CP3 quick in this leauge? Tony Parker? Also, the Hornets are not exactly the Suns, the only time CP3 uses his quickness is on fast breaks. How about the Suns? SSOL offense with Steve "Usain Bolt" Nash running the point. Seems to have worked out okay. Holy ****, didn't he win a couple of MVPs...? Deserved or not, byproduct of the system or not, much better shooter than Rubio or not, you DON'T need to be the fastest guy on the court to be a great PG. There are freaks of nature out there, but I'd rather take a prototypical PG over a SG in a PG body. I've seen too many of those flame out.

Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Russell Westbrook, TJ Ford, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Aaron Brooks, Leandro Barbosa, Ray Felton, Mike Conley. In other words, almost half of the starting point guards in the league, and most of the good young ones.

The Mavs replaced Devin Harris with Jason Kidd and they got worse. I'm just sayin'....

 

[Oprostaj]

Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Russell Westbrook, TJ Ford, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Aaron Brooks, Leandro Barbosa, Ray Felton, Mike Conley. In other words, almost half of the starting point guards in the league, and most of the good young ones.

The Mavs replaced Devin Harris with Jason Kidd and they got worse. I'm just sayin'....

How many of those are actually good?

Harris - Took him 4 years and a change of system. You never know. Would you have been talking about him this way if he was still in Dallas? BTW, the trade for Kidd was dumb, as he is on the heavy downside of his career. He's slow, but is still in the upper half of PG because of his size and court vision. And he STILL can't shoot. If Rubio is 75% like him we'll be set.

Westbrook - not a PG, no matter how much he wants to be

TF Ford - love him, too bad about the injuries, I'll give you him

Rose - another one of those one in a while - I've seen every game of his, and his first step is dynamite. can embarass paul if he wants to

Rondo - byproduct of the big 3, but he's quick. don't like his game, don't think there's anything special about him.

The rest... would you want any of them running the point on your team? The day barbosa, brooks or felton start for my team is the day you give up on life. good players, not PG, which is the basis of our argument. I LOVE teauge, just not as a PG, that's what I'm trying to say. He reminds me too much of the gunners who don't pan out in the NBA because he can't impact the game any other way than scoring. I've seen ben wallce go behind his back and no look to LeBron. Sign him up to play PG, he must be a good passer. We need a PG like a fat kid needs cake (got 50 on repeat here at work, sorry about that). I don't want someone with a first shoot, shoot second, maybe pass third mentality. Bibby worked here because we essentially had 5 PG on the floor at the same time, in an offense when the PF and C initiated the passing attack. I loved bibby at the time, and I love him now, but he's not what I like my PG to focus on.

Paul looks for his teammates first, and his shot second. That's what we need. Yes, I am worried about Rubio's shot. He has time to fix it. Tony parker came into the leauge with a shot that had everybody worried, and he fixed it, and made himself into a very respectable shooter. Even KG had a terrible, flat shot when he came in. Fixed it. Anything is possible if the player wants to work at it badly enough.

 

[nbrans]

How many of those are actually good?

Harris - Took him 4 years and a change of system. You never know. Would you have been talking about him this way if he was still in Dallas? BTW, the trade for Kidd was dumb, as he is on the heavy downside of his career. He's slow, but is still in the upper half of PG because of his size and court vision. And he STILL can't shoot. If Rubio is 75% like him we'll be set.

Westbrook - not a PG, no matter how much he wants to be

TF Ford - love him, too bad about the injuries, I'll give you him

Rose - another one of those one in a while - I've seen every game of his, and his first step is dynamite. can embarass paul if he wants to

Rondo - byproduct of the big 3, but he's quick. don't like his game, don't think there's anything special about him.

The rest... would you want any of them running the point on your team? The day barbosa, brooks or felton start for my team is the day you give up on life. good players, not PG, which is the basis of our argument. I LOVE teauge, just not as a PG, that's what I'm trying to say. He reminds me too much of the gunners who don't pan out in the NBA because he can't impact the game any other way than scoring. I've seen ben wallce go behind his back and no look to LeBron. Sign him up to play PG, he must be a good passer. We need a PG like a fat kid needs cake (got 50 on repeat here at work, sorry about that). I don't want someone with a first shoot, shoot second, maybe pass third mentality. Bibby worked here because we essentially had 5 PG on the floor at the same time, in an offense when the PF and C initiated the passing attack. I loved bibby at the time, and I love him now, but he's not what I like my PG to focus on.

Paul looks for his teammates first, and his shot second. That's what we need. Yes, I am worried about Rubio's shot. He has time to fix it. Tony parker came into the leauge with a shot that had everybody worried, and he fixed it, and made himself into a very respectable shooter. Even KG had a terrible, flat shot when he came in. Fixed it. Anything is possible if the player wants to work at it badly enough.

I'm not saying I'd want all of those players and they all have various limitations/weaknesses (except for Paul, obviously). But even Beno's eyes light up when Jason Kidd comes to town, just as every other PG's eyes light up when Beno comes to town. PGs are getting quicker.

This isn't a final judgment on Rubio, and obviously there are players in the NBA who do a lot without ideal athleticism. But you can't just set aside his quickness and say it doesn't matter at all. It does matter. It matters a whole lot. I know you think he can get past it, which is a totally defensible position. Lots of people who are smarter than I am feel the same way.

But.. I mean, look at this highlight reel: http://acbtv.acb.com/video/1247

First of all, the guys Rubio is playing against may be "men," but they are slow as hell men. It looks like it was shot in the NBA circa 1972. Second of all, if Rubio didn't do that stupid behind the back stuff that didn't even fool his defender in the slightest he probably would have been able to make better passes that actually went in, or scored himself.

What can I say, I'm not a fan.

Ok, I know I need to shut up now.

 

[N0M0R3]

Your quickness, speed, jumping athletic peak is not age 18-19. Look at Olympic sprinters. Usain Bolt was 22. Justin Gatlin was 22 in '04. Maurice Greene was 26 in '00. This is unscientific but I bet the peak of quickness and speed generally comes between ages 22-26.

You can not look at a kid who would have been an American high school junior over the summer and say he won't get quicker or faster. That is completely illogical. He will undoubtedly get faster and the only question is how much.

Didn't Greene Take Steroids?

 

[Vlade4GM]

Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Russell Westbrook, TJ Ford, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Aaron Brooks, Leandro Barbosa, Ray Felton, Mike Conley. In other words, almost half of the starting point guards in the league, and most of the good young ones.

The Mavs replaced Devin Harris with Jason Kidd and they got worse. I'm just sayin'....

Well, the reason they got worse was because their team is not built for a PG who creates for others.

 

[Kingster]

How many of those are actually good?

Harris - Took him 4 years and a change of system. You never know. Would you have been talking about him this way if he was still in Dallas?

Yeah, I was talking about him that way when he was at Dallas BECAUSE he was so darn quick. Dallas gave up on him, or maybe they never really gave him a chance. In any case, he's another very quick (and fast) point guard in the NBA who does not possess the great vision or play making ability, but who is very good.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

pretty decent discussion going on so far .. allow me to add my two ( or more ) cents.

For Starters, I voted Rubio. Let me also mention Ive seen Rubio play one full game (USA - Spain, watched it 2 - 3 times ) along with the youtube highlights. Ive seen Teague maybe 5 times this year, so take that for what its worth.

You could argue that either player plays against better competition, so I consider that argument a wash. While Rubio plays in an inferior 'pro' league, Teague plays in college. Both games are very different than the NBA game. Euro League is very strenuous from what I read. On the road a lot without the top notch service NBA or even college players get. More games, and like Brandon Jennings noted - you may not get paid on time. Also, you look at the top college teams, like Wake, and you see that like 50% of there Wins are by 20 or so points .. so its not like Teague is going against top quality pro prospects every night. Same can be said about Rubio, im just getting that out there. Anyways...

Both of these guys are huge risks, IMO. ( I still take Griffin If I get #1 pick )
Rubio theres the speed/athleticism/shot factor, and Teague the PG skill factor, but thats already been said 100 times.

I just think that on this team, Rubio is the risk that could be worth it. From everything Ive read ( which is alot, I wish I could say Ive seen him 100 times but I would be lieing, so thats all I have to go on here ) He plays very good defense. He has good hands and is able to get a ton of deflections that obviusly lead to steals and such. Defense is our teams glaring, glaring issue. We cant just magically become a good defensive team ... it takes defensive players, and Rubio could be that. From what our future looks like right now, we have a badd group of defensive players. Hawes is Hawes, Thompson is OK. Greene has shown flashes of blocking shots but defense is not his forte, Martin is boarderline AWEFUL at defense. You get the point. This is also why Im torn on drafting Thabeet .. We need a complete change of culture here .. Rubio isnt the complete answer, but he would be a YOUNG step in the right direction as far as defense goes.

Teague is quite obviously the better scorer, but I cant say that means a whole lot to me. This team can score .. scoring is easy.


Honestly, I would be satisfied with either of these players, However I think Curry deserves to be in the mix aswell, although I think im the only one left who likes him haha.

Two things that I would really like to see that could change my opinion :

1) Actually watching Rubio play 5+ games.
2) Watching Teague play point guard.

 

[Vlade4GM]

The biggest thing that worries me about Rubio is his lack of scoring ability, I think he has the ability to get into the lane and create for others, but the lack of scoring weapons is disconcerting. You ideally want your primary ball handler to be able to put the ball in the hoop at key moments in the game if need be. I think that's something that's correlated to what nbarans was talking in terms of teams that win championships, they have a team offense but also have guys when called upon can create their own offense off the dribble. I think Paul, Nash, and Williams can lead a team to a championship in the right circumstances but they have the ability to score when needed with their abilities to create space and shoot off the dribble. So it isn't so much about how the Tony Parkers have the advantage over the Pauls and Nashes, because I'd take them over Parker in a heartbeat. As far as the Kidds and Stocktons go, they don't quite have as much scoring ability as the others I mentioned (although Stockton developed a servicable jumpshot, but still wasn't a great scoring threat off the dribble), still they were on teams that got into the finals or were an injured Michael Jordan away from a championship.

 

[nbrans]

The biggest thing that worries me about Rubio is his lack of scoring ability, I think he has the ability to get into the lane and create for others, but the lack of scoring weapons is disconcerting. You ideally want your primary ball handler to be able to put the ball in the hoop at key moments in the game if need be. I think that's something that's correlated to what nbarans was talking in terms of teams that win championships, they have a team offense but also have guys when called upon can create their own offense off the dribble. I think Paul, Nash, and Williams can lead a team to a championship in the right circumstances but they have the ability to score when needed with their abilities to create space and shoot off the dribble. So it isn't so much about how the Tony Parkers have the advantage over the Pauls and Nashes, because I'd take them over Parker in a heartbeat. As far as the Kidds and Stocktons go, they don't quite have as much scoring ability as the others I mentioned (although Stockton developed a servicable jumpshot, but still wasn't a great scoring threat off the dribble), still they were on teams that got into the finals or were an injured Michael Jordan away from a championship.

Re: the championship thing only (since I'm on a self-imposed temporary Teague moratorium), I think what happens with teams with a pass-first point guard is that they come to depend on that person creating shots for them, but it's extremely difficult to find a bucket come crunch time and the playoffs when the defense tightens and becomes so focused on stopping only one person. When you're going against Nash or Kidd or even Stockton back in the day, you stop that guy the team can't score. The pass-first PG team might have really good offense for 46 minutes and throughout the course of a regular season, but when you need a bucket they are suddenly incredibly hard to come by when they're dependent upon the efforts of one guy's passing ability.

You saw this also with the glory era Kings as Webber/Divac functioned as de facto point guards. For 46 minutes the Princeton was a dream. Come crunch time when the defense really tightened up: you can stop it.

As you alluded, the Mavs also lost their edge when they had Nash and Kidd because they're not built for having a pass first point guard. In the Devin Harris/Jason Terry every man getting shots for himself era they were, counter-intuitively, much harder to stop.

This all can be overcome, such as how the Showtime Lakers had both Magic for the first 46 and Kareem's unstoppable sky hook for the last two minutes. But offenses that depend too heavily on one guy or a system to get shots never really wins championships, whereas teams who have one or more guys who can create their own shot at will always seem to win. I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

[beb0p]

Boy is there two players more of a polar opposite than Teague vs. Rubio? One is like the evil twin of the other.

First of all, as I've already stated, I don't dislike Rubio.
There are other players I like more but no doubt Rubio has talent. On the question of Teague vs Rubio, to me it's a matter of personal preference more than basketball acuement.

I happen to be in nbran's camp that I prefer guard with speed and athleticism when all things are equal. I am not saying Teague is better than Rubio, but I am saying that in general, Teague's type of athletic PG who can score appeals more than the slow methodical PG who can't shoot. Now, is Teague a PG? I honestly don't know. Neither of the two crack the top of my list, but if I have to choose, it'd be Teague. For the simple reason that I like PG who can keep up with Parker, Paul, Westbrook and Aaron Brooks of the world.

Nbran's point that pass-first PG don't win championship is legit. Championships are won by big men, and big men needs PG who can score and defend. The Spurs, Magic, and Rockets have no use for Rubio, but they can use a guy like Teague. And if, yes big if, we ever get a franchise player, that franchise player would need a PG who can spread the floor and defend the quick PG (where the Western Conference are filled with them). At the end of the day, Rubio and Teague are role players, so I chose the one who better fill the role needed by a champion team.

That is not to say Rubio won't help our team, he certainly can. If the basketball god comes to me and say that the Kings will not land that franchise player for another 20 yrs then I'd be open to Rubio over Teague for the simple reason that a true PG may make us competitive even if he won't ever take us to the promise land.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I dont understand the 'past first point guards dont win championships' argumant, at all.

I think defense is the key when it comes to the point guard spot.

Lets look at some recent championship PG's

Rondo - pass first, great defender.
Billups - could really do everything, great D, great passer, great shooter.
Parker - Super quick, great scorer, good defender ( speed )
Jwill/ Payton - both real good passers .. not much defense ( payton was old, Jwill is Jwill )
Fisher - good defender

After these guys we get to the bulls, and there roster goes without saying.

Saying pass first PG's dont win championships is rediculous. Its not all about who brings the ball up the court. Rondo had the big 3, The pistons had a great roster.. same goes with the spurs. Heat got lucky, and shaq and kobe? cmon.

These were all great teams, thats the only thing all these teams have in common. Good to great players all around there rosters .. That wins championships.

You can win a title with Teague or Rubio (assuming they turn out how we hope they will turn out ) sure, one will be better than the other .. but that also falls on the players that surround them.

Beno Udrih would probly average 8 assists on a good team .. on a team like the kings he doesnt look so great ..

 

[Vlade4GM]

The lesson in the debate is that PG is just one position and it depends a lot on how the rest of your team is built in order to win a championship.

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

Teague's game is just too universal for my tastes...thumbnail scouting report of him screams scoring guard with quickness, and no offense to Teague, but that's the most common description of many 6'1" - 6'4" guards in college or in the waiver wire nowadays. Obviously Teague has done much, much more than that and has even justified himself as a lottery pick this year (a huge surprise considering that he was on the radar, but received lukewarm interest at best from scouts last year)--but as usual with the cliches, college production is one thing, NBA translatable skills is another. There's little doubt the scoring and quickness will translate, as it did for guys like Jason Terry and Lou Williams, and the defensive potential is always there for guys of his mold, but can he be more than that--such as develop any playmaking skills? That's the extent of his skills' upside--his offensive game is so advanced it's hard to see him deferring, or developing it to a level where he truly makes his teammates better.

For Teague, I don't think it's a question of panning out--I think he will, with his offensive craft and quickness eventually adapt to a specific niche as a scorer in the NBA, and he has the quickness/athleticism to adjust--but whether he can be more. I happen to like all-around players with uniqueness to their games relative to other players playing the same position in the league, and Teague has neither of that. However, he does have the quickness and athleticism that appeals to me, so for that reason I do think he'll pan out and be able to unleash his scoring ability. But on our team where we had John Salmons, and now have Kevin Martin and Rashad McCants, do we really need those scorers? I loved Rondo and Westbrook for their athleticism and defense and their ability to be X factors, but I know people have their preferences. If you love great complementary scorers or go-to guys, Teague may be it. But I've never liked that, and I don't think that's what the Kings need.

 

[sono]

Rubio is as fast as he needs to be. Cp3 didn't drive around Beno tonight. He used a screen & played pick & roll with Chandler. Rubio plays the pick & roll just fine. As far as defense, if your going to throw Rubio under the bus because of his lack of quickness and poor defense, then we better trade Martin.

Teague, Douby, McCants...ect...., there are enough undersized SG with less than perfect PG skills. We've had our share, and some have even been successful. But, I'm really tired of seeing Jacks of all Trades, out on the court. Let's get someone who naturally plays the position, and then work on his deficiencys.

Rubio drove around Kid, down the lane & past our bigs, & finished strong, in the 1st quarter of the Gold Medal game. That is fast enough. In the quarter finals, he got a defensive rebound and took it all the way for a layup. That is fast enough. He knows how to defend the pick & roll, and can play great team defense. That should be fast enough.

I voted for Rubio

ditto, can't be said any better than this, that was my thought as well.

 

[Gary]

I dont understand the 'past first point guards dont win championships' argumant, at all.

I think defense is the key when it comes to the point guard spot.

Lets look at some recent championship PG's

Rondo - pass first, great defender.
Billups - could really do everything, great D, great passer, great shooter.
Parker - Super quick, great scorer, good defender ( speed )
Jwill/ Payton - both real good passers .. not much defense ( payton was old, Jwill is Jwill )
Fisher - good defender

After these guys we get to the bulls, and there roster goes without saying.

Saying pass first PG's dont win championships is rediculous. Its not all about who brings the ball up the court. Rondo had the big 3, The pistons had a great roster.. same goes with the spurs. Heat got lucky, and shaq and kobe? cmon.

These were all great teams, thats the only thing all these teams have in common. Good to great players all around there rosters .. That wins championships.

You can win a title with Teague or Rubio (assuming they turn out how we hope they will turn out ) sure, one will be better than the other .. but that also falls on the players that surround them.

Beno Udrih would probly average 8 assists on a good team .. on a team like the kings he doesnt look so great ..

I was thinking the same thing actually when people talked about a pass first PG.. On the Celts Rondo is pretty much a pass the ball to Garnett, Allen, or Pierce. I think his stats make him look better than he actually is though...

Billups had offense to go along with his ability to pass, but I wouldn't call him a quick scoring PG by any stretch of the imagination. He's the kind of PG that makes a team better with his floor generalship.

Parker is a high IQ PG as well. He's very fast though, and does have a good drive to the basket. But he does play the two man game with either Duncan or Manu pretty damn well. I wouldn't call him a shooting PG though.

Fisher is in a Triangle offense so we really cannot judge his skills. I think as far as a pure PG goes he won't make a team better, but he does not make many mistakes, and has the IQ to know his role.

JWILL might be the closest thing to a shooting PG that's on the list. But I wouldn't even consider him that for a second.

 

[Oprostaj]

I'm so glad that somebody else agrees with me in the fact that the notion of pass first PGs not winning championships is ridicilous. This is a team game, and as such, the whole team has to be involved. How many championships did the lakers win with Kobe flying the ship? Ohhh... they needed a big man that nobody in the NBA (of the NFL im guessing) could stop. Funny. A shoot first PG kills his team in the way that it eliminates his teammates. When one guy is initiating and finishing a play, it relegates the rest of the team to just watch, making the offense as a whole easier to defend. An offense doesn't get easier to defend in the last 2 minutes because of how it's ran, it all comes down to the players. It's mano a mano and whoever has the cojones to stand up wins the game. It's the definition of "clutch". I mean, am I losing my mind? Does nobody else see this? Who do you want handling the ball with 15 seconds left? A PG who can drive and dish? Or a combo guard who wil 95% of the time try to get his own shot off (because, again, they are SHOOT FIRST and that is their mentality,or make a bad decision, because again, mentality)

 

[Hallama]

Rubio will need to dominate the ball to be able to use his skills most effectively. Problem is, as the game slows down in the 4th quarter you need a player who can score, create, or pass to handle the ball. I think Teague gets the edge in those situations. Actually, I'd probably take Harden over both in those situations since Teague isn't exactly a great decision maker.

I think Rubio is a special player, gifted, incredible instincts, a magician. But those skills will be mostly useful during the first three quarters of a game. You need a scorer with a killer mentality to handle the ball in the 4th quarter. Iverson, Kobe, LeBron, Pierce, Roy, and Wade. Those guys finish games, and what do most have in common? Spot up shooters who knock down 3s, including PGs like Fisher, Gibson/Mo.

I'd still pick Rubio over Teague, though.

 

[nbrans]

Who do you want handling the ball with 15 seconds left? A PG who can drive and dish? Or a combo guard who wil 95% of the time try to get his own shot off (because, again, they are SHOOT FIRST and that is their mentality,or make a bad decision, because again, mentality)

I'd want someone who can get their own shot off. Every single time and twice on Sundays. Driving and dishing doesn't work in the last 15 seconds unless the guy who is passing is a threat to score.

 

[kingzallday]

If your looking at it like that then niether of these guys are clutch. I haven't seen either of these guys hit a 4th quarter buzzer beater to win the game. Rubio has hit one but IMO it was luck,(See it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGKEUfUScJw) though what I liked is he had the initiative to take the ball down the court and take the shot with confidence and didn't give a second thought about shooting it even though he had D all over him.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Rubio will need to dominate the ball to be able to use his skills most effectively. Problem is, as the game slows down in the 4th quarter you need a player who can score, create, or pass to handle the ball. I think Teague gets the edge in those situations. Actually, I'd probably take Harden over both in those situations since Teague isn't exactly a great decision maker.

I think Rubio is a special player, gifted, incredible instincts, a magician. But those skills will be mostly useful during the first three quarters of a game. You need a scorer with a killer mentality to handle the ball in the 4th quarter. Iverson, Kobe, LeBron, Pierce, Roy, and Wade. Those guys finish games, and what do most have in common? Spot up shooters who knock down 3s, including PGs like Fisher, Gibson/Mo.

I'd still pick Rubio over Teague, though.

If Rubio has us up by 20 at the end of the game who cares? All this nit picking about who's going to make the last shot, or whether or not Rubio is going to be a defensive liability, is meaningless. Who's going to be handling the ball & running the team, that's what's important. Every player we've talked about has shortcomings when it comes to one or another part of the game. Ballhandling, Shooting, Driving, Dishing, Finishing, Defense, Foot Speed, Hand Speed, Court Awareness, Too Short

It's not about who can make the last shot. It's about who can make the rest of the team better. Who can get the ball into the post, just where our bigs want it so that they can use their best move to score the basket. Who can run the pick & roll, without turning over the ball. Who can find the open man when the opponent double teams to stop penetration. We are already a jumpshooting team. We don't need another jumpshooter at the PG. We need someone who adds something new & different. We need the floor general, the decision maker, the team leader, the play maker.

No one on the current team fills that need. Rubio is the best of the Pure PG's available. With all his flaws, he's still the best player to fill that need.

 

[HighTopKicks]

I'd want someone who can get their own shot off. Every single time and twice on Sundays. Driving and dishing doesn't work in the last 15 seconds unless the guy who is passing is a threat to score.

Why does that have to be the PG? Why not the SG or SF or god forbid the PF or Center? Then we only need a PG who can get them the ball where they want it.

 

[nbrans]

Why does that have to be the PG? Why not the SG or SF or god forbid the PF or Center? Then we only need a PG who can get them the ball where they want it.

Because Kevin Martin can't do it, Francisco/Nocioni (our $13 million small forward tandem) can't do it, and Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes can't do it.

Sure, we can trade those guys to open up a spot for a scorer, but there's not a player on the team who can get a bucket when the team needs it. Might as well be the PG.

 

[rhythmless]

I'd want someone who can get their own shot off. Every single time and twice on Sundays. Driving and dishing doesn't work in the last 15 seconds unless the guy who is passing is a threat to score.

That's great! And look who Rubio would be passing to: Martin, Garcia, Hawes, Thompson, Nocioni.

What are they first and foremost? Scorers! Glad were in agreement.

I see both sides of the argument, but I feel that for OUR personnel to be effective, we desperately need a PURE point guard, a pass first point guard.

 

[nbrans]

That's great! And look who Rubio would be passing to: Martin, Garcia, Hawes, Thompson, Nocioni.

What are they first and foremost? Scorers! Glad were in agreement.

I see both sides of the argument, but I feel that for OUR personnel to be effective, we desperately need a PURE point guard, a pass first point guard.

And again, that's fine and good for three quarters and the regular season. In the playoffs and in crunch time it doesn't work. You need someone who can get their own shot when the defense tightens up. None of those guys can do it.

 

[rainmaker]

And again, that's fine and good for three quarters and the regular season. In the playoffs and in crunch time it doesn't work. You need someone who can get their own shot when the defense tightens up. None of those guys can do it.

None of them can do it yet, or even sniff the playoffs. But isn't it our hope that all of these players continue to develope. Hopefully 2-3 yrs down the road, maybe longer, but hopefully a couple of these guys elevate their games to that level. There are also future trades which should help. There is nobody on this team or in this draft that can hit game winners in the playoffs at this point, but that doesn't mean that down the road a couple of them won't elevate their games to that level.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Because Kevin Martin can't do it, Francisco/Nocioni (our $13 million small forward tandem) can't do it, and Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes can't do it.

Sure, we can trade those guys to open up a spot for a scorer, but there's not a player on the team who can get a bucket when the team needs it. Might as well be the PG.

Well, no point guard .. NO point guard is taking this team to the finals.

In fact, no team that has Garcia or Nocioni at the SF will even go deep in the playoffs let alone be contenders.

If we ever make it to the finals, the roster will look a hell of a lot different then it does now, and the point guard usually isnt the guy taking the last shot anyways, as long as we continue generalizing ( like saying past first points cant win championships )

Last shot takers for the contenders :

Dwayne Wade
Lebron James
Paul Pierce
Manu Ginobli
Kobe Bryant
Hedo Turkoglu
Joe Johnson
Carmelo Anthony ( yea you could argue Chauncy )
Chris Paul

1, maybe 2 of those players are the point guards .. a usual ' last shot ' is a iso ( which I hate BTW ) .. you generally dont want your small player making a drive to the hoop because the chances of him getting blocked are pretty high ..

I dont know how we got so off topic BTW .. but using a 'we need someone to make a last shot' argument for who a 11 win team should draft is kind of funny .. we have a lot of more important things to look for during this very very important draft.

 

[VF21]

If Rubio has us up by 20 at the end of the game who cares? All this nit picking about who's going to make the last shot, or whether or not Rubio is going to be a defensive liability, is meaningless. Who's going to be handling the ball & running the team, that's what's important. Every player we've talked about has shortcomings when it comes to one or another part of the game. Ballhandling, Shooting, Driving, Dishing, Finishing, Defense, Foot Speed, Hand Speed, Court Awareness, Too Short

It's not about who can make the last shot. It's about who can make the rest of the team better. Who can get the ball into the post, just where our bigs want it so that they can use their best move to score the basket. Who can run the pick & roll, without turning over the ball. Who can find the open man when the opponent double teams to stop penetration. We are already a jumpshooting team. We don't need another jumpshooter at the PG. We need someone who adds something new & different. We need the floor general, the decision maker, the team leader, the play maker.

No one on the current team fills that need. Rubio is the best of the Pure PG's available. With all his flaws, he's still the best player to fill that need.

Bravo. Excellent description of the player that would, in fact, turn this franchise on its ear and headed back in the right direction. And I agree with the rest, too.

All the players we're discussing have their various weaknesses, some of which can be worked on. Players like Rubio, who is about as pure a PG as we're gonna find, don't come along very often. When they do, you do whatever you can to add them to your roster.