Teague vs. Rubio
- Thread starter Nighthawk1
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Teague is 20 years old playing in college against guys with the age bracket of 24 and below probably... and most of these guys dont have the mindset of professionals yet.plus his competition is more concerned about passing that midterm exam than guarding him not all of them are star athletes.... and some of the players out there possibly wont be in the NBA
Rubio has been playing in a league where in the age bracket is ranging from 20s to who knows what... and guess what these guys are professionals, these guys play for contracts... (these guys mean business)rubio only debut around 4 years ago? that would make him what 15 or 16? hes like a boy in a mans world literally and not only that he already took the world stage in the olympics
so my vote obviously goes to the young rubio who has been playing with men for how long i do not know.. clearly he didnt fade, infact GAINED stardom speaks volumes.. that he will get over what ever weaknesses he has... you can be a landmine with your explosive first step but if you dont have the IQ to go with it and the leadership and court vision i dont see teague running a team... hell turn into a ben gordon type of player
plus the key here is POINT GUARD...
Rubio has been playing in a league where in the age bracket is ranging from 20s to who knows what... and guess what these guys are professionals, these guys play for contracts... (these guys mean business)rubio only debut around 4 years ago? that would make him what 15 or 16? hes like a boy in a mans world literally and not only that he already took the world stage in the olympics
so my vote obviously goes to the young rubio who has been playing with men for how long i do not know.. clearly he didnt fade, infact GAINED stardom speaks volumes.. that he will get over what ever weaknesses he has... you can be a landmine with your explosive first step but if you dont have the IQ to go with it and the leadership and court vision i dont see teague running a team... hell turn into a ben gordon type of player
plus the key here is POINT GUARD...
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I haven't seen Rubio play, so I won't comment on him. I have seen Teague play several times, and I'm sold. Look, the guy has quickness of the quickest point guards in the NBA - Tony Parker, C. Paul, Connelly, D. Harris. Then he has a shooting touch as good as any guard in the NBA. That's all you need to know. If you want to have a guard with lightning quicks, who can get to the hole anytime he wants, who can create a shot anytime he wants, and who shoots "lights-out", then he's your guy. If you're obsessed about having a "true" point guard, then he's not. He'll just be drafted by somebody else and beat our brains in every time we play them.
And by the way, Teague can defend. I've seen him block the shots of guards while making up ground of about 10-12 feet. You don't see that everyday.
And by the way, Teague can defend. I've seen him block the shots of guards while making up ground of about 10-12 feet. You don't see that everyday.
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Kevin Martin can create a shot any time he wants? That's news to me!
But tying this into the Teague/Rubio debate, Martin's inability to create his own shot is used as justification for a true point guard who would be able to set Martin up (and Garcia and Thompson and Hawes, etc.). I'm definitely sympathetic to this concern because all of those guys need to be set up to be effective, and none of them are very effective one on one. However, SOMEONE in the lineup is going to have to be able to create their own shot when the team needs a bucket. So either the Kings need a PG who can do it or a SF who can do it. Given our logjam at SF, PG is really the last hope.
So in other words, the PG spot is extremely crucial if this is our nucleus going forward. It's got to be someone who can both set other people up as well as provide offense when the team really needs a bucket. Rubio is limited offensively. He can set guys up, but unless he reworks his jump shot from scratch he's never going to be someone who gets you instant offense.
Teague is the guy. Lightning quick, gets the rim, can create space for a deadly jumper. But meanwhile, he can also pass and facilitate -- not a top shelf passer like Paul or Nash, but good enough.
But tying this into the Teague/Rubio debate, Martin's inability to create his own shot is used as justification for a true point guard who would be able to set Martin up (and Garcia and Thompson and Hawes, etc.). I'm definitely sympathetic to this concern because all of those guys need to be set up to be effective, and none of them are very effective one on one. However, SOMEONE in the lineup is going to have to be able to create their own shot when the team needs a bucket. So either the Kings need a PG who can do it or a SF who can do it. Given our logjam at SF, PG is really the last hope.
So in other words, the PG spot is extremely crucial if this is our nucleus going forward. It's got to be someone who can both set other people up as well as provide offense when the team really needs a bucket. Rubio is limited offensively. He can set guys up, but unless he reworks his jump shot from scratch he's never going to be someone who gets you instant offense.
Teague is the guy. Lightning quick, gets the rim, can create space for a deadly jumper. But meanwhile, he can also pass and facilitate -- not a top shelf passer like Paul or Nash, but good enough.
This is ridiculous, LarryLegend. He's not Eric Gordon, he's not Gilbert Arenas, he's not Allen Iverson. Watch the games, or at least watch the videos I linked to. We can debate the degree to which he'll be a good passer and lead an NBA team, but he's not a pure 2, and he's certainly not a dime a dozen player.
It's not as easy to "develop" pg skills as many on here are insinuating. Everybody makes nice passes once in a while, and while nobody is saying teauge couldn't run the point, I think people are saying he really shouldn't on this team. Scoring is not truly the issue with us. Someone to control this team and point it in the right direction is. Someone to give us a sense of purpose, to slow us down, to make us run, and hold us accountable for what we do. Teauge will be a good scorer, but he will not be able to run a team. The ability to pass does not a PG make. Floor vision, basketball IQ and the ability to affect a game without scoring does. I don't think Teauge has it.
Nbrans has mentioned this too....do you really think that a 17 year old WILL NOT get a heck of a lot quicker, faster and stronger? He was a high school junior in the Olympics...of course he looks slower! When Chris Paul and Deron Williams were 17 I think they would have looked pretty silly trying to guard or get a step on the top NBA guards. He just has a lot more developing to do and you're making a mistake if you write off any further athletic improvements.
Of course it could improve a lot, and still be average or below average, but that isn't a death knell. Nash really isn't that quick, that's what pick and rolls are for. Besides, he's probly a better defender than Nash right now.
Teague vs Rubio - Haven't seen Teague, and have only seen a little of Rubio in the Olympics. I'll take the true PG with defensive instincts. The fact that Teague is a super athletic scorer who can REALLY shoot it is really cool though. I'd have no problem with him in a Kings uni.
My tie-breaker is that Rubio is 2.5 years younger, and plays in a much tougher league. Rubio would be a high school senior this year, but if he played in the NCAA what do you think he'd be doing? I'm pretty sure he'd be kicking some serious ***.
Of course it could improve a lot, and still be average or below average, but that isn't a death knell. Nash really isn't that quick, that's what pick and rolls are for. Besides, he's probly a better defender than Nash right now.
Teague vs Rubio - Haven't seen Teague, and have only seen a little of Rubio in the Olympics. I'll take the true PG with defensive instincts. The fact that Teague is a super athletic scorer who can REALLY shoot it is really cool though. I'd have no problem with him in a Kings uni.
My tie-breaker is that Rubio is 2.5 years younger, and plays in a much tougher league. Rubio would be a high school senior this year, but if he played in the NCAA what do you think he'd be doing? I'm pretty sure he'd be kicking some serious ***.
Stronger? Yes. He'll get stronger.
Quicker and faster? No. Not much anyway.
Kobe won the dunk contest when he was 18, and it was the period of his career when he was the most explosive. Baron Davis was a freakish athlete when he was a frosh at UCLA, dunking almost from the free throw line even though he's only 6'3".
Basketball players wear down. All of those little ankle injuries and nicks and mileage wear down an athlete's athleticism. Players hit their peak ability wise around 28-30 because they still have enough athleticism and their skills have advanced. But 28-30 is not when basketball players peak on pure non-strength running and jumping athleticism. That's more like 18-19.
Rubio is not some sort of late bloomer. Sure, he can grow a little bit more and get a little bit quicker, but players don't all of a sudden gain Chris Paul quickness at age 18.
Quicker and faster? No. Not much anyway.
Kobe won the dunk contest when he was 18, and it was the period of his career when he was the most explosive. Baron Davis was a freakish athlete when he was a frosh at UCLA, dunking almost from the free throw line even though he's only 6'3".
Basketball players wear down. All of those little ankle injuries and nicks and mileage wear down an athlete's athleticism. Players hit their peak ability wise around 28-30 because they still have enough athleticism and their skills have advanced. But 28-30 is not when basketball players peak on pure non-strength running and jumping athleticism. That's more like 18-19.
Rubio is not some sort of late bloomer. Sure, he can grow a little bit more and get a little bit quicker, but players don't all of a sudden gain Chris Paul quickness at age 18.
Rubio's talent, instincts, abiltiy to perform under pressure, and vision are what impress me. The intangibles he brings to the table are more important that speed and quickness. There are a lot of super quick pg's in college who never sniff the nba. Rubio's talent and skill set don't come along very often, especially in such a young player which increases the potential for him to become a very good player. Only time will tell how good rubio will become, but there are a lot of players who max out on their talent level early in their nba careers because they rely on their athletic ability too much.
quickness is thrown around a lot and is overrated. It's not a track meet. this is a team game, and the intangibles rubio has make up for his "lack" of quickness. people need to stop comparing anybody to chris paul. the man is unique. compare anybody to him and they pale in comparison.
*sorry my post mirrors yours, rainmakers my browser at work is slow
*sorry my post mirrors yours, rainmakers my browser at work is slow
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He is quicker than all those guys (not to mention 10x more talented along with having excellent size and length).
Anyway, I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. I think everyone knows how I feel about Rubio.
On Teague, I really like him too. I've said this alot, but I wish we could see him play some more PG. He is really quick and athletic and can shoot. Shows signs of being a good passer, too. He is the type of player who could surprise everybody and be another CP3 or he could turn out to be an undersized combo journey guy. I still like him alot, and would have no problem seeing him as a King.
I don't get this Ricky vs Teague. It doesn't have to be either or. I like Rubio a little more, but I love both. You don't have to dump on one to like the other.
Anyway, I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. I think everyone knows how I feel about Rubio.
On Teague, I really like him too. I've said this alot, but I wish we could see him play some more PG. He is really quick and athletic and can shoot. Shows signs of being a good passer, too. He is the type of player who could surprise everybody and be another CP3 or he could turn out to be an undersized combo journey guy. I still like him alot, and would have no problem seeing him as a King.
I don't get this Ricky vs Teague. It doesn't have to be either or. I like Rubio a little more, but I love both. You don't have to dump on one to like the other.
Quickness is the most important athletic ability for a guard. If Paul didn't have it, he'd be ordinary. Intangibles can't get you past your man on the dribble, and it can't guard your man. It can't get you open for a shot. It can't get you to a loose ball faster than anybody out on the court. Quickness does that. And unless you're 6'9" and 240 lbs with dribbling ability like Magic, then you'd better have it. Does anyone remember Ernie D. Gregorio? He had a ton of intangibles - vision, dribbling ability, yada,yada, and I don't think he was any smaller than C. Paul. But he just couldn't compete athletically against the quicker guards in the league. Didn't have the quickness.
Even if he is a Russel Westbrook type player I don't think he can make others around him better. That's why I chose Rubio... The Douby comparison was a little harsh because I know Teague does have SOME PG skills. But not enough to run a team full time, and make others around him better at the NBA level. Not yet at least.. Will he? I dunno but I don't want to be the team that teaches him about team play.
I would always be afraid with a guy like Teague that we would have a 10/10 Hawes, 15/8 Thompson, 20+Martin, 15/7 Nocioni, and Teague averaging 20ppg 7apg and then not knowing why our team still sucks. People would look at Teague and say it's not him that's causing it because of his stats. There are PGs then there are PGs that make others around them better. Unfortuneately Teague is not even at the PG level yet let alone the PG that can make others around him better.
Do I know if Rubio can make others around him better? Not sure, but at least he's a pure PG. I would rather risk it with that than a SG playing point.
I would always be afraid with a guy like Teague that we would have a 10/10 Hawes, 15/8 Thompson, 20+Martin, 15/7 Nocioni, and Teague averaging 20ppg 7apg and then not knowing why our team still sucks. People would look at Teague and say it's not him that's causing it because of his stats. There are PGs then there are PGs that make others around them better. Unfortuneately Teague is not even at the PG level yet let alone the PG that can make others around him better.
Do I know if Rubio can make others around him better? Not sure, but at least he's a pure PG. I would rather risk it with that than a SG playing point.
I think this is getting out of hand. Rubio is not slow, he's not lightning. He is, at the very least, average by NBA terms. He is definitely, definitely faster than a guy like Udrih. Rubio is never going to be a franchise player, which I've said all along, but if you can sort out your PG spot for the next 10+ years, that's not an easy thing to do. Obviously, whether he will do that or not is completely subjective.
Fair enough. And for the record, I'm not dumping on Rubio to build up Teague. I felt this way about Rubio before I ever saw Teague. Quite simply, Rubio just terrifies me.
Here are my biases:
1) I don't like point guards who can't shoot for a high percentage because in the NBA it puts way too much pressure on the rest of the team and very rarely turns out well. Rondo is the exception that proves the rule. Lots of people thought Conley would turn out well because he'd improve his shooting. So far not so good.
2) I don't like point guards who aren't quick. Bibby made me pull my hair out, particularly in the later years. Yes, we can debate Rubio's quickness relative to other players and whether it will hamper him. If we draft him I really hope I'm wrong on this. But slow point guards are an anachronism. Even Beno is relatively quick relative to the PGs of 10 years ago (and I don't agree, DimeDropper, that Rubio is markedly faster than Beno).
3) I think pass-first point guards are overrated in the NBA. If you look back at the teams that won championships in the last 20 years, virtually none of them featured a pass-first point guard. The championship PGs are almost all quality shooters and good defenders.
Needless to say, all of this means Rubio plays to all of the things I don't like in a point guard. He scares me. Even if he turns out to be everything everyone hopes he will be (basically a brilliant passing non-shooting PG), he's still not the type of PG I'd want to build around. Maybe I'm letting these biases cloud my judgment, in which case I could turn out to be spectacularly wrong. Or I'm right. We'll see.
Here are my biases:
1) I don't like point guards who can't shoot for a high percentage because in the NBA it puts way too much pressure on the rest of the team and very rarely turns out well. Rondo is the exception that proves the rule. Lots of people thought Conley would turn out well because he'd improve his shooting. So far not so good.
2) I don't like point guards who aren't quick. Bibby made me pull my hair out, particularly in the later years. Yes, we can debate Rubio's quickness relative to other players and whether it will hamper him. If we draft him I really hope I'm wrong on this. But slow point guards are an anachronism. Even Beno is relatively quick relative to the PGs of 10 years ago (and I don't agree, DimeDropper, that Rubio is markedly faster than Beno).
3) I think pass-first point guards are overrated in the NBA. If you look back at the teams that won championships in the last 20 years, virtually none of them featured a pass-first point guard. The championship PGs are almost all quality shooters and good defenders.
Needless to say, all of this means Rubio plays to all of the things I don't like in a point guard. He scares me. Even if he turns out to be everything everyone hopes he will be (basically a brilliant passing non-shooting PG), he's still not the type of PG I'd want to build around. Maybe I'm letting these biases cloud my judgment, in which case I could turn out to be spectacularly wrong. Or I'm right. We'll see.
Your quickness, speed, jumping athletic peak is not age 18-19. Look at Olympic sprinters. Usain Bolt was 22. Justin Gatlin was 22 in '04. Maurice Greene was 26 in '00. This is unscientific but I bet the peak of quickness and speed generally comes between ages 22-26.
You can not look at a kid who would have been an American high school junior over the summer and say he won't get quicker or faster. That is completely illogical. He will undoubtedly get faster and the only question is how much.
You can not look at a kid who would have been an American high school junior over the summer and say he won't get quicker or faster. That is completely illogical. He will undoubtedly get faster and the only question is how much.
nbrans, you really don't have to explain it to me. We've gone through this a zillion times! 
I know how you feel, and honestly, I know your skepticism is justified. I have worries, too. Obviously we feel differently on the matter, but it will all be resolved in the future.
I have no problem admitting that I'm a little biased, but I've really tried not to let that cloud my judgement or any of the things I've said about him. Maybe you're right that he's not markedly faster than Beno, but worst case scenario, he is as fast. Don't know what that means, really.
Anyway, you make a strong argument against. I think we've both gone over it enough to know where we stand. I'll still read it all, but I think I'll slow down on the Rubio posting, as I feel like a broken record.
I know how you feel, and honestly, I know your skepticism is justified. I have worries, too. Obviously we feel differently on the matter, but it will all be resolved in the future.I have no problem admitting that I'm a little biased, but I've really tried not to let that cloud my judgement or any of the things I've said about him. Maybe you're right that he's not markedly faster than Beno, but worst case scenario, he is as fast. Don't know what that means, really.
Anyway, you make a strong argument against. I think we've both gone over it enough to know where we stand. I'll still read it all, but I think I'll slow down on the Rubio posting, as I feel like a broken record.
These guys started very, very fast and through training shaved off hundreds of seconds off their time, as in inches and feet of the course of a hundred meter dash. It's not a difference you'd notice on a basketball court.
I mean, come on. It's not like Usain Bolt ran like Ricky Rubio at age 18 before he magically turned into Usain Bolt. Rubio can get a little quicker, but hey, by this rationale maybe Teague is going to get quicker too! You won't even be able to see him by 2012 he'll run so fast.
I mean, come on. It's not like Usain Bolt ran like Ricky Rubio at age 18 before he magically turned into Usain Bolt. Rubio can get a little quicker, but hey, by this rationale maybe Teague is going to get quicker too! You won't even be able to see him by 2012 he'll run so fast.
nbrans, you really don't have to explain it to me. We've gone through this a zillion times! I know how you feel, and honestly, I know your skepticism is justified. I have worries, too. Obviously we feel differently on the matter, but it will all be resolved in the future.
I have no problem admitting that I'm a little biased, but I've really tried not to let that cloud my judgement or any of the things I've said about him. Maybe you're right that he's not markedly faster than Beno, but worst case scenario, he is as fast. Don't know what that means, really.
Anyway, you make a strong argument against. I think we've both gone over it enough to know where we stand. I'll still read it all, but I think I'll slow down on the Rubio posting, as I feel like a broken record.
I know how you feel, and honestly, I know your skepticism is justified. I have worries, too. Obviously we feel differently on the matter, but it will all be resolved in the future.I have no problem admitting that I'm a little biased, but I've really tried not to let that cloud my judgement or any of the things I've said about him. Maybe you're right that he's not markedly faster than Beno, but worst case scenario, he is as fast. Don't know what that means, really.
Anyway, you make a strong argument against. I think we've both gone over it enough to know where we stand. I'll still read it all, but I think I'll slow down on the Rubio posting, as I feel like a broken record.
Me too.
Isn't speed and quickness all relative. Rubio might not be the fastest pg baseline to baseline, or have the quickest first step, but does he need to? He was fast enough in the olympics to get by Kidd, and CP3. I saw him play against Jennings on NBA TV a few weeks ago and he blew by him on a number of occasions. While he might not be as quick as some people would like, he is quick enough to penetrate against nba pg's.
They all got A LOT faster from age 17 to 22. That's why they went from not making the Olympics, to winning it. They'd have looked silly in the 100M dash when they were high school juniors.
I'm not saying Rubio will turn into Usain Bolt or even Chris Paul, but he doesn't need to. He's 6'4. Can't he just be GP quick (who really wasn't that quick), or Nash, or Hinrich, or Deron Williams? Combine that with great b-ball IQ on O and D, and he'll be great. I'll bet he's as quick as at least a couple of those guys at the same age. If he's not quicker than Udrih, I'll bet he's quicker than 17-18 Udrih.
I mean come on, you're the one holding onto the argument that a guy's speed is almost entirely developed by the time they're a high school junior. Its just not true.
I'm not saying Rubio will turn into Usain Bolt or even Chris Paul, but he doesn't need to. He's 6'4. Can't he just be GP quick (who really wasn't that quick), or Nash, or Hinrich, or Deron Williams? Combine that with great b-ball IQ on O and D, and he'll be great. I'll bet he's as quick as at least a couple of those guys at the same age. If he's not quicker than Udrih, I'll bet he's quicker than 17-18 Udrih.
I mean come on, you're the one holding onto the argument that a guy's speed is almost entirely developed by the time they're a high school junior. Its just not true.
There are a lot of quick PGs entering the league, but I don't think a PG like Rubio will have much problem carving a niche being that he possesses such a high BBall IQ. A lot of the successful teams know how to set picks the correct way in order to get the PG free anyway. Plus his speed isn't even that big of an issue as he's not like Brad Miller or anything.
As for his shooting, he can get to the rim just fine. His 3pt shot isn't the greatest, but he does get inside fairly well. But we are talking about an 18 year old so I am sure his shooting will improve.
BTW just looked at the poll!! WHA?? 35-7? dang..
As for his shooting, he can get to the rim just fine. His 3pt shot isn't the greatest, but he does get inside fairly well. But we are talking about an 18 year old so I am sure his shooting will improve.
BTW just looked at the poll!! WHA?? 35-7? dang..