I am sorry I don't think this team will benefit well with a true pg such as a Nash. With the players that GP has compiled as our future. I believe a Bibby esque pg is what is needed. Beno was supposed to be a better passing pg. With our offense the way it is having the ball in the pgs hands to distribute takes the ball out of the hands of Martin Salmons and the good passing of Brad. I think with a viable shooting option at pg we would be much better than we are now.
and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...
- Thread starter RiffRaff
- Start date
You're right, there is little point in arguing about it. We will wait a few years for some results. I know there's a chance I could be wrong; I'm not stupid enough to insist that I will be right. But, I do feel like I've seen enough of him to make a correct analysis on how his game will translate.
Rubio is probably the only subject I actually disagree with you on. AFAIC, your other opinions are spot on.
Rubio is probably the only subject I actually disagree with you on. AFAIC, your other opinions are spot on.
Hold your horses, you just contradicted yourself in a big way. You don't want a distributing type PG because it will take the ball out of the hands of Martin and Salmons, and your solution is to get a PG who needs the ball in his hands and is primarily a scorer? A pass-first PG is what will solve that problem, not the other way around as you suggested.
waaaaait a minute... are you watching the same games as i have? are you saying that this team... with an average of under 20 assists a game (beno claiming 25% of it), needs a bibby esque pg, who was only getting 6 in his days? and this is AFTER we ship off miller, the next highest passer?
you WANT the ball to be kept in salmons and martins hands? theyre both hovering around 3 assists a game. brad is only here because were putting him in peanuts to pack him up. no, the team geoff is assembling needs a pure point guard very very much. martin needs a pure point guard. the reason bibby was able to operate so well was because doug played point a lot, and webber and vlade can lay argue for themselves as the best passing 4 and 5 in the nba, and barring tandems from way back when, without a doubt the best frontcourt passing duo in history.
we dont have that.
spencer is showing propensity for nice cut passes, but nothing to establish him as smothing revolutionary. actually, he is showing the propensity for his own points more than anything else. he loves to shoot, he loves to slip the screen and call for a roll to the basket (his hand is there EVERY time... watch).
martin is a below average passer. he actually would benefit the most from a pure pg, which is why i want one. martin scores off cuts, backdoor feeds, screens, and curls more than most sgs, and to be able to give hims someone who can see him would definitely take him to the next level.
thompson cant even catch a ball right now, let alone throw it back. kid wants to do 4 pivots, 2 fakes, and a drop step before he even has the ball.
no... if anythign is a certainty, it's that this team needs, more than anything else, a pure pure pure point guard. i thought that the last few years have been have been nothing but evidence to this.
you WANT the ball to be kept in salmons and martins hands? theyre both hovering around 3 assists a game. brad is only here because were putting him in peanuts to pack him up. no, the team geoff is assembling needs a pure point guard very very much. martin needs a pure point guard. the reason bibby was able to operate so well was because doug played point a lot, and webber and vlade can lay argue for themselves as the best passing 4 and 5 in the nba, and barring tandems from way back when, without a doubt the best frontcourt passing duo in history.
we dont have that.
spencer is showing propensity for nice cut passes, but nothing to establish him as smothing revolutionary. actually, he is showing the propensity for his own points more than anything else. he loves to shoot, he loves to slip the screen and call for a roll to the basket (his hand is there EVERY time... watch).
martin is a below average passer. he actually would benefit the most from a pure pg, which is why i want one. martin scores off cuts, backdoor feeds, screens, and curls more than most sgs, and to be able to give hims someone who can see him would definitely take him to the next level.
thompson cant even catch a ball right now, let alone throw it back. kid wants to do 4 pivots, 2 fakes, and a drop step before he even has the ball.
no... if anythign is a certainty, it's that this team needs, more than anything else, a pure pure pure point guard. i thought that the last few years have been have been nothing but evidence to this.
^^^^
I have to agree.. We need a PG who can help the Kings with their dismal 19-16 a/t ratio. Beno is not the answer. He is a horrible PG, and to say he's faster than Rubio? heh.... suuuure.. That's like saying Beno is faster than a HS senior, and that the Senior will never gain any speed because he has hit his peak.
I have to agree.. We need a PG who can help the Kings with their dismal 19-16 a/t ratio. Beno is not the answer. He is a horrible PG, and to say he's faster than Rubio? heh.... suuuure.. That's like saying Beno is faster than a HS senior, and that the Senior will never gain any speed because he has hit his peak.
Do you honestly believe that Salmons and Miller are going to be apart of the future core? Martin is a good off ball scorer, he doesn't need the ball in his hands. I agree that we don't need a true PG and that's why I've suggested Jrue Holiday a bunch of times but when you can possibly come across a Jason Kidd type PG you don't turn it down. Let's be honest here, this team is not a finished product, not by a long shot.
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I wasn't saying have a pg that is going to jack up 20 shots a game. I am saying a viable shooter. Not somebody that is a complete liability once he passes the ball to Martin. When Beno passes the ball after crossing half court his job is done. He don't contribute much after that. So whats the point? Have another shooter making that pass and when somebody needs to kick it back out after a drive maybe just maybe have a pg that can shoot or can play the pick and roll. Hawes and Thompson are 20 and 22. I don't think Vlade and Webb were thought of as the greatest passing big men when they were that age.
You guys need to take a step back and look at what GP is doing. He is emulating that Kings. Now with the hire back of Caril. You may as well get ready for the Princeton offense to be in full swing again next season. I am guess and Eddie Jordan hire as well. A Ricky Rubio type pg will not have his full arsenal in the princeton offense and will be nothing like what you see now. Soooo that beind said and the direction we are heading we need a shooting option.
Now if we go in another direction and don't go to that offense then yes maybe somebody like Rubio.
I have also seen Thompson and Hawes make some nice passes this year and they don't have the ball in their hands NEAR as much as Vlade and Chris did so the ability to have those assist is going to drop. Martin and Salmons seldom catch and shoot so our assist are down alot because of that. Bibby and Peja were great at the catch and shoot. Webb would get at least 3 assist just handing it to bibby and picking his man.
You guys need to take a step back and look at what GP is doing. He is emulating that Kings. Now with the hire back of Caril. You may as well get ready for the Princeton offense to be in full swing again next season. I am guess and Eddie Jordan hire as well. A Ricky Rubio type pg will not have his full arsenal in the princeton offense and will be nothing like what you see now. Soooo that beind said and the direction we are heading we need a shooting option.
Now if we go in another direction and don't go to that offense then yes maybe somebody like Rubio.
I have also seen Thompson and Hawes make some nice passes this year and they don't have the ball in their hands NEAR as much as Vlade and Chris did so the ability to have those assist is going to drop. Martin and Salmons seldom catch and shoot so our assist are down alot because of that. Bibby and Peja were great at the catch and shoot. Webb would get at least 3 assist just handing it to bibby and picking his man.
The problem I have with a pure pure PG like say Kidd is that we'd still need a guy who we can hand the ball to and say "go get us a shot." We don't a perimeter scorer who can create off the dribble and be a go to guy at the end of the game, that's my concern. I guess we'd have to come up with a SF who could play that role. However, this team is not a finished product. Thompson has not proven that he can be the guy at the 4 position that we need to cover Hawes' weaknesses. If say Rubio was available to us and we believed he could be a Kidd type then we definitely need to draft him, assuming the gap between him and the rest of the draft is significant like it would be in this draft. Why? Because that's a type of player you don't pass on because you're planning to build a team in another direction, you take franchise PG's like that you build around them, especially when you're still molding your current team.
Out of our team, I think Martin and Hawes are the only ones that have proven they can be quality starters on a contending team. Thompson maybe, but I don't see him and Hawes being good enough compliments to be a championship contending frontcourt. The rest are either unproven, eventually going to be shipped out, or true bench players. We're really not commited to any real direction that we couldn't back out of easily and take someone that wouldn't exactly fit it.
Just to clarify I'm not saying I believe Rubio will be a Jason Kidd, I'm speaking hypothetically.
Out of our team, I think Martin and Hawes are the only ones that have proven they can be quality starters on a contending team. Thompson maybe, but I don't see him and Hawes being good enough compliments to be a championship contending frontcourt. The rest are either unproven, eventually going to be shipped out, or true bench players. We're really not commited to any real direction that we couldn't back out of easily and take someone that wouldn't exactly fit it.
Just to clarify I'm not saying I believe Rubio will be a Jason Kidd, I'm speaking hypothetically.
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i dont see the princeton offense at all. tell me where you see it. our personnel is vastly different as well. we actually ahve no offensive direction currently.
martin is unlike anyoen we have had before. spencer is more of a 3 poitn shooter in half of his second year than vlade was his whole time here. thompson does not equal webber, but he does have a ncie midrange shot. beno could be bibby, except for beno cant toss a ball into the ocean(which you said was important). garcia is perhaps the best example for you, with ball ahndlnig ability, a feistyness, and hustle like doug christie. otherwise, this team is looking to be a more traditional team mold, in that the pg needs to dominate the ball for others.
martin is unlike anyoen we have had before. spencer is more of a 3 poitn shooter in half of his second year than vlade was his whole time here. thompson does not equal webber, but he does have a ncie midrange shot. beno could be bibby, except for beno cant toss a ball into the ocean(which you said was important). garcia is perhaps the best example for you, with ball ahndlnig ability, a feistyness, and hustle like doug christie. otherwise, this team is looking to be a more traditional team mold, in that the pg needs to dominate the ball for others.
Hawes, Cisco and Martin are all clearly potential Princeton players. As is obviously Brad, who will be gone. But the huge issue wiht the Princeton is that it requires incredibly specialized eprsonnel, and that the ONLY reason we were able to get away with it at an elite level was because of a freakish near HOF level talent in CWebb. Otherwise the type of players it encourages are not the type of players that win you titles. Guys who can't create thier own shot. Guys likely to play with their head because their body sucks. No superstars. It was always an underdog offense designed to allow pasty Ivy League basketball dilettantes to make up for lack of athleticism and sneak up on superior talent. We got lucky in that we found a superior talent who could function within the system. Trying to head back to that system without a similary unique presence is pointless longterm.
The negative for the Princeton as we play it, is that we have our best rebounder 15-19ft from the basket playing PG and dishing out the ball. The only way that works is with a PF & SF who can dominate the offensive boards, and a PG who can knock down the 3 with deadly accuracy.
Now if Hawes is to be our Low Post Center of the future, we lose the benefit of the Center away from the basket to free up the lane. So, some one needs to make up their mind which way were going because we if were going back to the Princeton then we surely don't need a PURE PG with our 1st pick in the draft.
IMHO, where we need to start is by getting some players that can really play defense. The best defending PF (not necessarily shot blocker) who can rebound with the best, and a PG with speed and quickness to stay in front of his man. If the PG can defend and handle the ball, I can live with him not being the best shooter, that can come later.
Now if Hawes is to be our Low Post Center of the future, we lose the benefit of the Center away from the basket to free up the lane. So, some one needs to make up their mind which way were going because we if were going back to the Princeton then we surely don't need a PURE PG with our 1st pick in the draft.
IMHO, where we need to start is by getting some players that can really play defense. The best defending PF (not necessarily shot blocker) who can rebound with the best, and a PG with speed and quickness to stay in front of his man. If the PG can defend and handle the ball, I can live with him not being the best shooter, that can come later.
I think people are jumping way too quickly to the conclusion the return of Coachie must therefore equal a return to the "Princeton" offense... Coachie is also well known for stressing fundamentals. He can and does instill confidence in young players, and perhaps most importantly truly stresses the TEAM concept and the critical value in knowing your teammates' game as well as your own and TRUSTING each other.
Those principles are some of what has been missing since Adelman left. If Coachie can bring them back, our team, our players and our fans will all benefit...
Those principles are some of what has been missing since Adelman left. If Coachie can bring them back, our team, our players and our fans will all benefit...
Very good point Brick. Also, offensive versatility is the name of the game IMO, no point in locking oneself up in a very particular offense that limits the number of players that we can go after. It's a similar problem the triangle runs into, but Jackson has been lucky to have great players that fit, as were the Kings with Webber.
Well, at the same time, the Princeton is just a variation of the triangle offensive employed by Phil Jackson/Tex Winter that emphasizes backdoors and high post action. You need guys who are smart enough to read defenses, are good and willing passers, and preferably five guys who can all shoot to keep the defense spread, opening up those backdoor lanes. As Vlade4GM points out, Phil Jackson has had the personnel to run the triangle throughout his career, but he also had Jordan and Kobe, who could both fit in and then dominate as needed in the 4th Quarter.
I don't think the vintage Kings' weakness of not having a shot creator was necessarily by design, and I'm with Vlade4GM on having one somewhere on the roster, and preferably on the perimeter. Sinc it's not looking like Kevin is going to be that guy, we're going to need that person at the PG or SF.
We don't HAVE to have it, but an inability to create shots when they really needed it was a serious weakness of those vintage Kings. I don't think that was by design, I think it was a personnel issue.
I don't think the vintage Kings' weakness of not having a shot creator was necessarily by design, and I'm with Vlade4GM on having one somewhere on the roster, and preferably on the perimeter. Sinc it's not looking like Kevin is going to be that guy, we're going to need that person at the PG or SF.
We don't HAVE to have it, but an inability to create shots when they really needed it was a serious weakness of those vintage Kings. I don't think that was by design, I think it was a personnel issue.
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I agree with this train of thought here. I think we should use our first pick based on best available, and if that isnt a PG(jennings or holiday), then use our 2nd pick on a PG, or a very athletic 3 like damian james to improve defense and rebounding. I agree that Rubio will be a good NBA player, but like some have said, I dont see him being a "star" or an all-star player. The skill he has at such a young age is very remarkable, but aside from some distributing and good defense, I dont see him being able to score or shoot well enough to be an elite PG in the league. At the same time, if we take him, I will be behind him 100% to prove me wrong.
A guy I think we need to add into our discussion for our 2nd pick should be Jeff Teague, the PG from Wake Forest. Ive seen the guy play on a number of occasions, he is incredibly athletic with good size, creates his own shot and gets to the rim as well as any other player ive seen this year, and is a very good 3 pt shooter. Could definitely be the guy we need who can create his own shot and knock down some outside jumpers. He needs to watch the turnovers though.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=36121
Could be a good value pick with our 2nd pick. Keep an eye on him if you get a chance to watch a Wake game.
Well, Miller is out. Salmons is out. But if Hawes takes over for Miller, I can see a much bigger athletic point guard at the point working out quite well. (Bibby II would be a disaster because of defensive inadequacies.) He would not be a creator, but he could shoot the outside shot and get the ball up the floor and set up the offense; think Garcia with even more athleticism. Still, the Kings have so many unknowns concerning personnel at this point, I think they've just go out and get a freaking STAR, no matter what kind of position, or kind of player at the position. They absolutely cannot be particular.
You draft the best player available, the player you think has the best chance of being a franchise player. At this point you can't let the current team hold you back.
Martin being the most untouchable, you can't worry about how your pick affects him. His game has limitations and you'll need a certain kind of player around him to get the most out of him and still be a viable star in his own right-- a player who can score, create and defend, a once in a generation player. Going that route will be extremely hard and require a bunch of luck.
Martin isn't a defender or ball handler/play maker, that puts pressure on everyone else, especially at the 1 and 3. You need a playmaker and defender on the perimeter because as good as a passer/defender Hawes and Thompson could be, they can't guard perimeter players and their playmaking will be limited by how good those guys are.
The best route would be to aquire a star player somewhere and have Martin take a more secondary role. That means he won't be a 23+ player, he'll have to be more Rip Hamilton. A good scorer, but one where the offense doesn't revolve around him. It requires too much focus to get Martin "his", at the expense of the rest of the team, while he doesn't give you much back.
Martin being the most untouchable, you can't worry about how your pick affects him. His game has limitations and you'll need a certain kind of player around him to get the most out of him and still be a viable star in his own right-- a player who can score, create and defend, a once in a generation player. Going that route will be extremely hard and require a bunch of luck.
Martin isn't a defender or ball handler/play maker, that puts pressure on everyone else, especially at the 1 and 3. You need a playmaker and defender on the perimeter because as good as a passer/defender Hawes and Thompson could be, they can't guard perimeter players and their playmaking will be limited by how good those guys are.
The best route would be to aquire a star player somewhere and have Martin take a more secondary role. That means he won't be a 23+ player, he'll have to be more Rip Hamilton. A good scorer, but one where the offense doesn't revolve around him. It requires too much focus to get Martin "his", at the expense of the rest of the team, while he doesn't give you much back.
Agree 100%. All this talk about our offense or what kind of player would fit is moot. With our current personnel, a Princeton-esque offense might be very effective. However, right now our top concern remains getting a star caliber player and then we can cater our system to him.
The Kings have done this in the past too. The system we can for Richmond was different than our O with Webber or with Artest for that matter.
We need to get the best player period, even if the pieces do not fit together. Once we get that main cog, you shape the pieces aroud him and we can trade Hawes, Martin, Thompson, Greene, picks, etc. for players who will complement the star.
Catching up with UCLA/USC from the weekend--
Collison seems even better than ever. He's still deadly from outside, and now he seems a lot more confident taking the ball to the hoop. Early in the game he went straight at Taj Gibson for a seriously tough three point play, and he had another play where he sliced two defenders with a hesitation move and layed it in. In the second half he drove into the lane and hit a tough fadeaway and hit a tough jumper off a screen at the shot clock buzzer. He's also played with a level of intensity you don't always see from him. Really, really high on Collison. Good defense too. He only missed three shots. One was a layup where he slipped and fell as he was going up, one was a drive into the lane where he was clearly fouled, and the third was a contested three. (He also drew rim on an 80 foot heave at the half, but I guess they didn't count that in the box score.) He did miss two free throws after hitting 43 straight. Finished with 18 and 6 on 9 shots.
Jrue Holiday.... man, it's the good and the bad with him. He was playing with a lot more confidence than he was early in the season, and he was knocking down the threes. At the same time he's still extremely, extremely raw. On one posession: he drove into the lane and passed a seriously awkward pass to a post man (which he managed to catch), then when he got the ball back he jumped into the air for a jump shot, threw the ball off of the SC player, got the ball back and passed out to a guy for an open three. Both plays pretty awkward, but effective I guess. Later in the half he had a good assist on a back door, and on the next play threw up an awkward air ball. In the second half USC shifted Hackett onto him, who dominated him defensively, and he was barely heard from again save for a really impressive crossover and high arcing layup over Gibson. He mostly guarded DeRozan, who got whatever he wanted shooting over him in the 1st half and then basically nothing in the 2nd half. He seems like he has the potential to be a good defender but he falls asleep getting back in transition and for some reason sometimes guys drive by him like he's standing still, other times he guards them tough.
DeMar DeRozan is also starting to look much more comfortable and now I'm starting to see what the hype is all about. He was a little wild driving to the hoop, but he made some strong pull-up midrange jumpers. I still don't think he's quite as athletic as he's made out to be (he did fly in for an impressive goaltend on Collison), but he was showing some pretty polished moves, even if he needed Salmons-esque dribbles to get them. He's also yet to hit a 3 pointer all season and seemed to tire out in the second half as he pretty much disappeared.
Both DeRozan and Holiday really need to stay in school. I like Holiday's potential but I'd be extremely nervous about drafting him and hoping he's suddenly going to handle the point in the NBA.
Taj Gibson got into some serious early foul trouble through no fault of his own in the first half, but made some tough moves throughout the game. He also had a particularly impressive blocked shot on a closeout on Josh Shipp. He's still got hops, passing and a mid-range J, and he would be a great 2nd round pick if he falls that far.
Collison seems even better than ever. He's still deadly from outside, and now he seems a lot more confident taking the ball to the hoop. Early in the game he went straight at Taj Gibson for a seriously tough three point play, and he had another play where he sliced two defenders with a hesitation move and layed it in. In the second half he drove into the lane and hit a tough fadeaway and hit a tough jumper off a screen at the shot clock buzzer. He's also played with a level of intensity you don't always see from him. Really, really high on Collison. Good defense too. He only missed three shots. One was a layup where he slipped and fell as he was going up, one was a drive into the lane where he was clearly fouled, and the third was a contested three. (He also drew rim on an 80 foot heave at the half, but I guess they didn't count that in the box score.) He did miss two free throws after hitting 43 straight. Finished with 18 and 6 on 9 shots.
Jrue Holiday.... man, it's the good and the bad with him. He was playing with a lot more confidence than he was early in the season, and he was knocking down the threes. At the same time he's still extremely, extremely raw. On one posession: he drove into the lane and passed a seriously awkward pass to a post man (which he managed to catch), then when he got the ball back he jumped into the air for a jump shot, threw the ball off of the SC player, got the ball back and passed out to a guy for an open three. Both plays pretty awkward, but effective I guess. Later in the half he had a good assist on a back door, and on the next play threw up an awkward air ball. In the second half USC shifted Hackett onto him, who dominated him defensively, and he was barely heard from again save for a really impressive crossover and high arcing layup over Gibson. He mostly guarded DeRozan, who got whatever he wanted shooting over him in the 1st half and then basically nothing in the 2nd half. He seems like he has the potential to be a good defender but he falls asleep getting back in transition and for some reason sometimes guys drive by him like he's standing still, other times he guards them tough.
DeMar DeRozan is also starting to look much more comfortable and now I'm starting to see what the hype is all about. He was a little wild driving to the hoop, but he made some strong pull-up midrange jumpers. I still don't think he's quite as athletic as he's made out to be (he did fly in for an impressive goaltend on Collison), but he was showing some pretty polished moves, even if he needed Salmons-esque dribbles to get them. He's also yet to hit a 3 pointer all season and seemed to tire out in the second half as he pretty much disappeared.
Both DeRozan and Holiday really need to stay in school. I like Holiday's potential but I'd be extremely nervous about drafting him and hoping he's suddenly going to handle the point in the NBA.
Taj Gibson got into some serious early foul trouble through no fault of his own in the first half, but made some tough moves throughout the game. He also had a particularly impressive blocked shot on a closeout on Josh Shipp. He's still got hops, passing and a mid-range J, and he would be a great 2nd round pick if he falls that far.
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I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're making. I never said I don't want Petrie to reach. I just don't want Petrie to reach for... Collison.
I feel like I have to qualify my statement with "although", "with that said", "what I mean is" with every post. So here goes, what I mean is I like Collison but I don't think he's the best pick at the upper tier of the lottery based on the players who are projected to enter the draft. There, I hope I cover all the ground. No wait, I feel like I have to qualify my statement on Collison, by "like" I mean Collison will be a solid starter and I won't be too upset if he does end up on the Kings. There, that should do it.
I feel like I have to qualify my statement with "although", "with that said", "what I mean is" with every post. So here goes, what I mean is I like Collison but I don't think he's the best pick at the upper tier of the lottery based on the players who are projected to enter the draft. There, I hope I cover all the ground. No wait, I feel like I have to qualify my statement on Collison, by "like" I mean Collison will be a solid starter and I won't be too upset if he does end up on the Kings. There, that should do it.
The hope would be that Collison is still there for Houston's pick (somewhere in the 20-25 range most likely) in the event we decide to go with a big man or win the lottery outright (not out of the question as things currently stand) and end up with Blake Griffin. But then as the season progresses, if Collison continues to prove himself he'll be picked higher. And there's the paradox with these drafts-- You want the players you like to do well, but not so well that everyone else realizes how good they are. I've been all over the place on Collison over the past couple years. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I'd rather have him as a very good backup than my starting PG. I just don't think he has the size or the tools to be dominant in the NBA. He'll be solid though, and a very good defender. If we do manage to draft him, I wouldn't consider the PG position solved though. Just a lot better than it is now.
I didn't see the first half, but according to the LA Daily News, DeRozan was torching Shipp in the first half (11 pts) until Holiday requested the defensive shift, after which DeRozan only scored 4.
http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_11432522
So it sounds like he's a pretty good man defender after all (and Shipp was their best on-ball defender last year) and he's got the right attitude and fire as well.
http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_11432522
So it sounds like he's a pretty good man defender after all (and Shipp was their best on-ball defender last year) and he's got the right attitude and fire as well.
Not sure about the number breakdown (I trust them if they went back and tallied things up), but yeah, I do think Holiday has the makings of a good defender even if he falls asleep from time to time.
At the same time though, I really feel like a lot of DeRozan's petering out had more to do with DeRozan than with Holiday. Even the announcers talked about how DeRozan looked tired and that his conditioning might be a problem, and he never really attacked the rim or even went for those pull-up jumpers after half. USC plays some pretty exhausting defenses and doesn't sub much, which may have worn him down. So yeah, part of the struggles were Hoilday guarding him well, but partly DeRozan just stopped trying to do anything.
At the same time though, I really feel like a lot of DeRozan's petering out had more to do with DeRozan than with Holiday. Even the announcers talked about how DeRozan looked tired and that his conditioning might be a problem, and he never really attacked the rim or even went for those pull-up jumpers after half. USC plays some pretty exhausting defenses and doesn't sub much, which may have worn him down. So yeah, part of the struggles were Hoilday guarding him well, but partly DeRozan just stopped trying to do anything.