Agreed. We're a terrible team right now, so NOBODY should be labeled "untouchable". I don't want to see Hawes or Thompson go mind you. "Untouchable" to me means that you don't trade them for ANY offer that comes your way. I'd gladly trade Martin or one of your young guys if it lands us a better player
Bobcats want Miller? (ESPN)
- Thread starter Simran2214
- Start date
Pros:
Wallace brings defense.
Get rid of the biggest whiner in the league.
Cons:
Paying $9-$10 mill a year for a player that will never rarely play 70 games a season.
Exchanging a player worth $9-$10 for a player that makes less than $6 and has the better offensive production and is a better on ball defender.
I don't know. The injuries and price tag scare me. I say wait till Millers contract expires. This frees up $12 mil. You can get a better player than Wallace for $12 mil.
Wallace brings defense.
Get rid of the biggest whiner in the league.
Cons:
Paying $9-$10 mill a year for a player that will never rarely play 70 games a season.
Exchanging a player worth $9-$10 for a player that makes less than $6 and has the better offensive production and is a better on ball defender.
I don't know. The injuries and price tag scare me. I say wait till Millers contract expires. This frees up $12 mil. You can get a better player than Wallace for $12 mil.
Which is exactly what alot of people against the trade seem to be thinking...the only problem is that their isn't any of them available. If we don't get Wallace we are gonna end up with a player like Hedo Turkoglu or Tayshaun Prince in 2010...unless you honestly think we are picking Amare Stoudamire or Lebron James.
While I agree with you, there is always that chance a top tier talent wants to sign here.... I personally hate the building around the 2010, and wouldn't mind us trading away a lot of expirings to another team who is also in that pool or wants to be in that pool and maybe trade for our top tier talent that way...
Serious? Really? Making Ignorant comments now? The only irrational talk is coming from you. You admittedly state that you haven't seen much of Garcia then go off to spout every possible negative about him and refuse to accept the positives both statistically and intangibly that he brings to the court.
Look, finding a guy that is 1) a proven leader, 2) Clutch, 3) has the ability to be a strong contributor in just about ANY role he's given with the versatility to play 3 positions is pretty rare and worth holding onto.
Feel free to ignore the truth, that is your prerogative, but the fact is Garcia is probably the 2nd most valuable player on this roster and the MLE money he's getting will look like a Bargain for the 5 years he receives it, a la John Salmons currently.
Look, finding a guy that is 1) a proven leader, 2) Clutch, 3) has the ability to be a strong contributor in just about ANY role he's given with the versatility to play 3 positions is pretty rare and worth holding onto.
Feel free to ignore the truth, that is your prerogative, but the fact is Garcia is probably the 2nd most valuable player on this roster and the MLE money he's getting will look like a Bargain for the 5 years he receives it, a la John Salmons currently.
wow, if garcia helps this team get to the championship series, this stupid thread will be the least of my worries. you think he's a game-changer in the regular season? well, that's...absolutely worthless, unless affecting the outcome of a few games over the course of an EIGHTY TWO game season means something to you.
but you go ahead, keep calling him a difference-maker. as you can see, our record in the regular season for the past two years has been spectacular with such a factor on our team.
***
let me try to approach this from another angle. our record this season sucked with garcia out. with garcia, we still suck. how much of a difference can he possibly be making??? since you (kingster) were talking about history and experience before, i went back and looked at garcia's draft class. on that list, i'd say there are only two difference-makers: deron williams and chris paul.
but you go ahead, keep calling him a difference-maker. as you can see, our record in the regular season for the past two years has been spectacular with such a factor on our team.
***
let me try to approach this from another angle. our record this season sucked with garcia out. with garcia, we still suck. how much of a difference can he possibly be making??? since you (kingster) were talking about history and experience before, i went back and looked at garcia's draft class. on that list, i'd say there are only two difference-makers: deron williams and chris paul.
Last edited:
Ah yeah, I've sure seen a whole lot of "Garcia is a completely different player this season!!!" talk this season. His stats are exactly the same, the oncourt result is the same..... seems like he's pretty much the same guy he was last season. But hey! Maybe he is completely different and only you have noticed. What do I know?
I like Garcia's versatility. I like that he has good character. I think he has the makings of a good backup for several more years. I still can think that and also think 1) it was stupid to sign him up to an extension ahead of time, 2) he's overpaid. You think he's the 2nd most valuable player on this roster? That's just completely absolutely insane.
If he's so valuable, why have the Kings been so terrible since he's come back? Such a difference maker...
I like Garcia's versatility. I like that he has good character. I think he has the makings of a good backup for several more years. I still can think that and also think 1) it was stupid to sign him up to an extension ahead of time, 2) he's overpaid. You think he's the 2nd most valuable player on this roster? That's just completely absolutely insane.
If he's so valuable, why have the Kings been so terrible since he's come back? Such a difference maker...
The development of ones game involves more than simple statistical analysis, it most importantly involves limiting ones mistakes from game to game. From what I've seen Garcia looks to be far more comfortable and in control than in the past and he isn't even in rhythm yet. He's an energy guy, sure they can't take to the promised land but just ask the Detroit Pistons how important "energy" guys can be.
I don't know what this has to do with anything. but we have been down by 20 pts or more alot this season and we always still seem to be playing as hard at the end as we were at the begining of the games. Thats pretty cool. Maybe its because alot of them are trying to get more PT. Either way it keeps me watching a 20pt blowout.
I am in the same boat as a few others, haven't got the league pass this year, so only watched a few Kings games... so I'm willing to take a lot of you guys at your word. But what I don't get is how leadership is measured on a team that is as bad as ours is right now? Not a knock on anybody, it just seems like a really interesting quality to highlight for a team in the spot we're in.
Ok, I don't agree with the previous poster being insulting at the beggining of his post.
However, I think the argument here is becoming a moving target. The initial point of contention was if Garcia was similar to Posey. Put Posey on our team instead of Garcia and we have 0-1 extra wins right now. In fact, how many difference makers period are making less than Garcia (who are not on their rookie contracts). Garcia is a very good role player; however, I don't think anyone here was comparing him to a Kobe, LeBron, Paul, etc.
Also, why do you think Garcia is overpaid? Do you think he is making too much money or just that the Kings shouldn't be singing anyone to the MLE right now? Is this a Garcia issue or a Kings rebuilding issue? To me, good defensive players, who shoot 40% from the three point line, can create even mildly and have any toughness are worth the MLE.
It would be interesting to see all the MLE players in the league and how Garcia compares to them.
However, I think the argument here is becoming a moving target. The initial point of contention was if Garcia was similar to Posey. Put Posey on our team instead of Garcia and we have 0-1 extra wins right now. In fact, how many difference makers period are making less than Garcia (who are not on their rookie contracts). Garcia is a very good role player; however, I don't think anyone here was comparing him to a Kobe, LeBron, Paul, etc.
Also, why do you think Garcia is overpaid? Do you think he is making too much money or just that the Kings shouldn't be singing anyone to the MLE right now? Is this a Garcia issue or a Kings rebuilding issue? To me, good defensive players, who shoot 40% from the three point line, can create even mildly and have any toughness are worth the MLE.
It would be interesting to see all the MLE players in the league and how Garcia compares to them.
Well, in some sense I think the Posey/Garcia comparison is kind of apples to oranges. I agree with you that Posey wouldn't be worth much to the Kings and probably wouldn't result in vastly more wins. Day in day out he's not going to score the points, and it takes other guys to get the day to day wins.
At the same time, put Garcia on the Hornets and they're suddenly a much less scary team come postseason. Why? Posey is a lockdown player on D, gets in his opponents' heads, and has proven he can hit clutch shots. He's worth a whole lot to a contender. He's a proven glue guy for championship teams. That's worth the $5-$6 million they're paying him.
Garcia on a contender? Maybe you'll get some big shots, maybe you'll get some boneheaded plays, maybe you'll get some hustle, maybe you'll get some turnovers. All in the same game. Possibly the same possession.
I don't really see Garcia as a glue guy, unless you're talking about gluing the Titanic together before it sinks. He's a fine player. He's versatile, he can play different positions, he is pretty much the same player starting or coming off the bench. Supposedly he keeps the locker room jocular. But to tie up the cap for a long time at the MLE, and not only that, but to do it a year ahead so it hampers what you can do in the meantime? Nuh uh. That I don't agree with. I just don't feel that he's worth that much on the court.
At the same time, I agree with you -- he's probably not overpiad in the grand scheme of things. If Vujacic and Pavlovic and Duhon and a bunch of other average players can command the MLE, then yeah, Garcia probably is at that level too. But he was a restricted free agent coming into the offseason. Why not see what the market would bear? Why not see if you could get a star like Wallace in the meantime? The Kings had matching rights -- you really think people would have been clamoring to give Garcia the MLE? I sure don't.
Ultimately, it comes down to 1) some people around these parts are inexplicably overinflating Garcia, which is galling me and 2) I wish the situation would have been handled differently so that the team had more flexibility in trades and free agency.
At the same time, put Garcia on the Hornets and they're suddenly a much less scary team come postseason. Why? Posey is a lockdown player on D, gets in his opponents' heads, and has proven he can hit clutch shots. He's worth a whole lot to a contender. He's a proven glue guy for championship teams. That's worth the $5-$6 million they're paying him.
Garcia on a contender? Maybe you'll get some big shots, maybe you'll get some boneheaded plays, maybe you'll get some hustle, maybe you'll get some turnovers. All in the same game. Possibly the same possession.
I don't really see Garcia as a glue guy, unless you're talking about gluing the Titanic together before it sinks. He's a fine player. He's versatile, he can play different positions, he is pretty much the same player starting or coming off the bench. Supposedly he keeps the locker room jocular. But to tie up the cap for a long time at the MLE, and not only that, but to do it a year ahead so it hampers what you can do in the meantime? Nuh uh. That I don't agree with. I just don't feel that he's worth that much on the court.
At the same time, I agree with you -- he's probably not overpiad in the grand scheme of things. If Vujacic and Pavlovic and Duhon and a bunch of other average players can command the MLE, then yeah, Garcia probably is at that level too. But he was a restricted free agent coming into the offseason. Why not see what the market would bear? Why not see if you could get a star like Wallace in the meantime? The Kings had matching rights -- you really think people would have been clamoring to give Garcia the MLE? I sure don't.
Ultimately, it comes down to 1) some people around these parts are inexplicably overinflating Garcia, which is galling me and 2) I wish the situation would have been handled differently so that the team had more flexibility in trades and free agency.
How can you be so sure that no one would have offered him a MLE?! I mean seriously, look around the league, year in year out worse players than Garcia get MLE contracts. You just named 3 of them and I am sure if we looked into it a bit deeper that would be MANY players in the league on MLE contracts that are worse than Garcia.
Garcia is a good player and his versatility and ability to play at an equal level as a starter or off the bench make him a valuable piece and at MLE, I don't think he is overpaid.
People brag on about Wallace and he is a very good player but c'mon now, he is one concussion away from hanging up the boots for good and he will be a $12 million player when we hit the FA and quite frankly, you should be able to get a better player for $12 million than Wallace.
We are rebuilding, we still have the flexibility to move players if a no brainer deal comes our way.
Signing Garcia in no way impact whether or not we want to get Wallace. What will impact that decision is Wallace's contract length and salary cap flexibility for the summer of 2010. Thats what the team should be working to and thats what I believe the team is working to.
Its no use having Wallace at his price when you don't have the pilar to build the team around. Once you get that superstar to build around, players like Wallace are not that hard to trade for when you have the trading pieces.
Garcia is a good player and his versatility and ability to play at an equal level as a starter or off the bench make him a valuable piece and at MLE, I don't think he is overpaid.
People brag on about Wallace and he is a very good player but c'mon now, he is one concussion away from hanging up the boots for good and he will be a $12 million player when we hit the FA and quite frankly, you should be able to get a better player for $12 million than Wallace.
We are rebuilding, we still have the flexibility to move players if a no brainer deal comes our way.
Signing Garcia in no way impact whether or not we want to get Wallace. What will impact that decision is Wallace's contract length and salary cap flexibility for the summer of 2010. Thats what the team should be working to and thats what I believe the team is working to.
Its no use having Wallace at his price when you don't have the pilar to build the team around. Once you get that superstar to build around, players like Wallace are not that hard to trade for when you have the trading pieces.
Garcia by himself would not be a target for trades, but he could've been used in a package with someone else. The extension we gave him makes things trickier, and it pretty much means we're stuck with him for the time being; he's "untouchable".
We've lost flexibility. Garcia has had success in the NBA, and with his small contract, and impending FA, he would've been a great contract to fill in and push a deal through. That is no more. We only have left bigger contracts, and guys who've done nothing in the NBA (as far as players to move). With Garcia's extension that means we have less capspace, are limited with the deals we can make if 2010 is the goal. We have less room to absorb other players and still remain a player.
As a rebuilding team, with no pillar, and going nowhere, it was not wise to extend Garcia.
We've lost flexibility. Garcia has had success in the NBA, and with his small contract, and impending FA, he would've been a great contract to fill in and push a deal through. That is no more. We only have left bigger contracts, and guys who've done nothing in the NBA (as far as players to move). With Garcia's extension that means we have less capspace, are limited with the deals we can make if 2010 is the goal. We have less room to absorb other players and still remain a player.
As a rebuilding team, with no pillar, and going nowhere, it was not wise to extend Garcia.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the team's leading scorer has been out ever since he returned from his injury? Perhaps? Maybe? And the fact is, overall this isn't the best roster. We have a back-up starting at PG, a 20 year old center playing PF and a, IMO, unenthused 31 y/o starting at C.
Blaming the losses on Garcia is ridiculous.
Blaming the losses on Garcia is ridiculous.
Or....his BYC status leaves a year earlier, which makes his mid-level deal more tradeable a year earlier IF a DEADBRAIN deal came our way involving Garcia.
IMO, Garcia will be a King for life. He's a positive that only adds, and rarely subtracts from this team. There's more to basketball than just x's and o's and numbers from stats.
I actually don't think we are that far off in our opinions. I think I value Garcia more than you do, but not by that big of a gulf. I actually do see a lot of Posey in Garcia though. Not saying the two will have identical careers, but put Garcia on last years Celtics shooting wide open 3s and I think he would have been great.
With that said, the one thing that is odd about the situation is why did Petrie do the early extension. I have given this a bit of thought and here's my possible scenarios:
1 - Eliminate distractions - We are trying to develop our young players and show off some veterans to increase their trade value. Having Garcia playing for a contract might have been a big distraction and taken away from those goals.
2 - Saving money - We actually paid Garcia slightly less than the MLE I believe. It's possible that Petrie thought another team would make an absurd offer or that the MLE would increase. It will be interesting to see what kind of money gets thrown around this off season, if we see marginal players getting more than the MLE, this might have been a smart move.
3 - Trade flexibility - Next year Garcia won't be a base year player now, since he signed the extension this season (I believe). With Kenny Thomas and Brad Miller going into "expiring contract" status next season, it's possible that Garcia could be a trade chip.
4 - Agent - I don't know who Garcia's agent is, but is it possible he represents some other potential free agents or draft picks that Geoff covets. Maybe this is part of the master plan to get LeBron and Wade to Sacramento
With that said, the one thing that is odd about the situation is why did Petrie do the early extension. I have given this a bit of thought and here's my possible scenarios:
1 - Eliminate distractions - We are trying to develop our young players and show off some veterans to increase their trade value. Having Garcia playing for a contract might have been a big distraction and taken away from those goals.
2 - Saving money - We actually paid Garcia slightly less than the MLE I believe. It's possible that Petrie thought another team would make an absurd offer or that the MLE would increase. It will be interesting to see what kind of money gets thrown around this off season, if we see marginal players getting more than the MLE, this might have been a smart move.
3 - Trade flexibility - Next year Garcia won't be a base year player now, since he signed the extension this season (I believe). With Kenny Thomas and Brad Miller going into "expiring contract" status next season, it's possible that Garcia could be a trade chip.
4 - Agent - I don't know who Garcia's agent is, but is it possible he represents some other potential free agents or draft picks that Geoff covets. Maybe this is part of the master plan to get LeBron and Wade to Sacramento
No, it's worse for trade flexibility because he's a poison pill player this year and BYC next year (just like Kevin Martin is currently BYC).
This year he could have been used as bait (along with expirings) to land a star player, or, barring that, we could have matched an MLE offer from another team in the offseason, which I wouldn't have had a problem with. The possible downside would have been that a team could have thrown a lot of money at him and Petrie would have had a decision to make, but I think that would have been the least likely outcome.
But now, we have Garcia signed up longterm, limiting what capspace we could have had this offseason and next offseason, and we're apparently passing up no-brainer trades because of a logjam. It was all avoidable.
This year he could have been used as bait (along with expirings) to land a star player, or, barring that, we could have matched an MLE offer from another team in the offseason, which I wouldn't have had a problem with. The possible downside would have been that a team could have thrown a lot of money at him and Petrie would have had a decision to make, but I think that would have been the least likely outcome.
But now, we have Garcia signed up longterm, limiting what capspace we could have had this offseason and next offseason, and we're apparently passing up no-brainer trades because of a logjam. It was all avoidable.
Its not really that complicated still. Its sort of like how you don't draft for need, you draft for the best. You also shouldn't trade for need, you should trade for the best player you can get.
Wallace is, at this point, better than Marion and is on the other side of his career than Marion is. His contract sucks compared to Marion's, but he's the better player. It should still be a no-brainer.
Wallace is, at this point, better than Marion and is on the other side of his career than Marion is. His contract sucks compared to Marion's, but he's the better player. It should still be a no-brainer.
Wallace aint worth 10 million. Athletes are a dime a dozen. Brad Miller will stay put. His trade value is only going to rise in time. There is too much of a frenzy in 2010 for certain teams not to explore getting well below the cap. Mavs, Rockets and Spurs are in their last throws as currently constructed....2 more on the way in Detroit and Toronto. that means alot of team are going to have to get rid of some talent. We just made a major trade over the summer, and just traded theus away. I think Petrie shouldn't pull any more triggers even if he wanted to.
Can we just analyse this situations rationally rather than going off half cocked on some rumour.
For starters, I think its a load of crap that Charlotte have made an offer thats being reported. There are a number of reasons why I think its rubbish.
Firstly, its reported by Hoopsworld, their track record with these things is very very ordinary. They haven't got 1% of these trades right in their entire existance.
Secondly, we are talking about coach Brown here. A coach that loves defensive players, hates softies and absolutly hates soft big man. Brown loves traditional big man. Miller is not that type of player. He sucks defensively, has no low post game, plays from the high post and is just a blue print of anti-Brown type player.
There is as much chance of me bedding Jennifer Lopez and Jessica Alba at the same time as there is that the Bobcats are after Miller. Sorry, I just can't see it.
I can see a number of teams liking Miller for a number of reasons but Bobcats are not one of them.
For starters, I think its a load of crap that Charlotte have made an offer thats being reported. There are a number of reasons why I think its rubbish.
Firstly, its reported by Hoopsworld, their track record with these things is very very ordinary. They haven't got 1% of these trades right in their entire existance.
Secondly, we are talking about coach Brown here. A coach that loves defensive players, hates softies and absolutly hates soft big man. Brown loves traditional big man. Miller is not that type of player. He sucks defensively, has no low post game, plays from the high post and is just a blue print of anti-Brown type player.
There is as much chance of me bedding Jennifer Lopez and Jessica Alba at the same time as there is that the Bobcats are after Miller. Sorry, I just can't see it.
I can see a number of teams liking Miller for a number of reasons but Bobcats are not one of them.
I actually don't think we are that far off in our opinions. I think I value Garcia more than you do, but not by that big of a gulf. I actually do see a lot of Posey in Garcia though. Not saying the two will have identical careers, but put Garcia on last years Celtics shooting wide open 3s and I think he would have been great.
With that said, the one thing that is odd about the situation is why did Petrie do the early extension. I have given this a bit of thought and here's my possible scenarios:
1 - Eliminate distractions - We are trying to develop our young players and show off some veterans to increase their trade value. Having Garcia playing for a contract might have been a big distraction and taken away from those goals.
2 - Saving money - We actually paid Garcia slightly less than the MLE I believe. It's possible that Petrie thought another team would make an absurd offer or that the MLE would increase. It will be interesting to see what kind of money gets thrown around this off season, if we see marginal players getting more than the MLE, this might have been a smart move.
3 - Trade flexibility - Next year Garcia won't be a base year player now, since he signed the extension this season (I believe). With Kenny Thomas and Brad Miller going into "expiring contract" status next season, it's possible that Garcia could be a trade chip.
4 - Agent - I don't know who Garcia's agent is, but is it possible he represents some other potential free agents or draft picks that Geoff covets. Maybe this is part of the master plan to get LeBron and Wade to Sacramento
With that said, the one thing that is odd about the situation is why did Petrie do the early extension. I have given this a bit of thought and here's my possible scenarios:
1 - Eliminate distractions - We are trying to develop our young players and show off some veterans to increase their trade value. Having Garcia playing for a contract might have been a big distraction and taken away from those goals.
2 - Saving money - We actually paid Garcia slightly less than the MLE I believe. It's possible that Petrie thought another team would make an absurd offer or that the MLE would increase. It will be interesting to see what kind of money gets thrown around this off season, if we see marginal players getting more than the MLE, this might have been a smart move.
3 - Trade flexibility - Next year Garcia won't be a base year player now, since he signed the extension this season (I believe). With Kenny Thomas and Brad Miller going into "expiring contract" status next season, it's possible that Garcia could be a trade chip.
4 - Agent - I don't know who Garcia's agent is, but is it possible he represents some other potential free agents or draft picks that Geoff covets. Maybe this is part of the master plan to get LeBron and Wade to Sacramento
If you have a restricted free agent on you team, a salary hold is placed for the maximum amount that player could be paid in the open market based on years of service and his base salary. For instance, Douby is a restricted free agent at the end of this year. His current salary is $1,427,040.00. The hold for him would be $6,592,926.00. Garcia's current salary is $1,983,453.00. His hold probably would have been close to $7,300,000,.00. Instead he will be making $5,800,000.00. Instead of going into the offseason with a huge hold and an unknown future amount, the Kings might have decided that, 1. They wanted to retaind Garcia. And 2. They want to know in advance what amount of money they would be dealing with.
Are you suggesting that having either Gerald Wallace or Gerald Green on your team would yield the same results?
Wallace is much more than a great athlete. More importantly, he has a knack for getting steals and blocking shots. AND he's still relatively young. He can single-handedly alter a game in ways athletes like Gerald Green and Desmond Mason can only dream of.
Wallace is much more than a great athlete. More importantly, he has a knack for getting steals and blocking shots. AND he's still relatively young. He can single-handedly alter a game in ways athletes like Gerald Green and Desmond Mason can only dream of.
That's an interesting take. That $1.5M could actually make the difference when it comes to trying to land a FA with what cap space we might have this summer, though I think we'd have to at least jettison Brad to get any meaningful cap space - looks like we're at about $60M assuming Shareef is off the books for medical...I'm not sure how much we would shave off by not bringing Mikki back (meaning does the buyout portion stay on the salary cap books).
But as far as Douby being a restricted FA this summer, is that correct? I thought that when his 4th-year option was not picked up, that made him an unrestricted FA.
But as far as Douby being a restricted FA this summer, is that correct? I thought that when his 4th-year option was not picked up, that made him an unrestricted FA.
The hold on Douby applies to the end of the 2010 season. Douby has one more year on his contract after this year, but its a team option, which the Kings have already declined to pick up. So the hold after th 2010 season is a moot point. I merely used it as an example of what would have been, had the Kings picked up his option year.
As it stands right now, Brads contract will be gone after the 2010 season along with KT, SAR (regardless of injury), Moore, Douby, Williams, BJax, and Brown. The Kings will be somewhere around 20 to 23 million dollars under the cap, depending on the rise of the cap and what other moves they might do.
As it stands right now, Brads contract will be gone after the 2010 season along with KT, SAR (regardless of injury), Moore, Douby, Williams, BJax, and Brown. The Kings will be somewhere around 20 to 23 million dollars under the cap, depending on the rise of the cap and what other moves they might do.