Kings Select in the 2008 NBA DRAFT??

[bajaden]

I guess it all comes down to whether you want instant gratification or not. If the powers that be think he'll be able to contribute in three yrs or more then maybe he's worth the risk. We don't know for a fact at this pt in time that he or Love will even declare for the draft. I personally think that Thabeet would benefit from another year or two in college.
By the way. I went back and checked the schedule and espn has changed it. No game with Rider there now. Damm.

 

[Henkel]

Kevin Loves height and lack of speed is going to hurt him on the defensive end. Love might be a decent NBA player but he's going to be a defensive liability. If Petrie feels Hawes is a part of this teams future then drafting Love is just redundant. Both are big men that you can run your offense through in high and the low post but bring little in terms of defense. They simple do not complement each other.

Hasheem Thabeet might be the one of most improved players in the country. He looks like a completely different player this year compared to a season ago. He is still raw but his rapid improvement is a good indicator that he has the work ethic and desire to improve. I doubt Thatbeet will every be a great offensive player but his size, athleticism and timing are going to allow him to be a great shot blocker if nothing else. If he continues to become more aggressive he could also be a very good if not a great rebounder. His man to man defense has only been average for someone with so many physical tools but athletically he has everything you could hope for, he just needs to add some strength and develop that aspect of his game.

If the Kings decide to go for a big guy in the upcoming draft and Hibbert and Jordan are off the board (i expect they will be). I think Thatbeet would be the best pick in terms of potential.

 

[Gary]

Remain unsure about Thabeet but it is a clear choice between a big/potentially intimidating frontline, and a short, white groundbound one that will usher in another decade of not being able to shut down the lane against anybody.

Basketball IQ.. Love/Hawes combo would be the smartest in the league. Plus they both have skills as well. While I think Thabeet has a higher ceiling in potential than Love, I am not sure if Thabeet will ever have the chance to reach it. He is still relatively new to BBall, and Love has been playing his whole life. Freshman to freshman stats are pretty much one sided in Love's favor.

 

[Gary]

Kevin Loves height and lack of speed is going to hurt him on the defensive end. Love might be a decent NBA player but he's going to be a defensive liability. If Petrie feels Hawes is a part of this teams future then drafting Love is just redundant. Both are big men that you can run your offense through in high and the low post but bring little in terms of defense. They simple do not complement each other.

You could say the same about Webber and Vlade? They both are passing big men with good hands. If you remember when Webber came to town he was considered a post player, as was Vlade with his up and under type shots. They were able to actually compliment each other by Webber playing out high some of the time, and Vlade playing high other times.

Love, and Hawes are the same. Both have a high and both have a low game. Both are good passers (Vlade was considered the best passing center in the league, and Webber was top two with Garnett as best passing PF). They both have the potential to have amazing all around games and it wouldn't surprise me if they played well together.

But Brick is right. Interior D would suffer a bit, but I feel Moore defensively could pick up some of the slack. Moore is a decent on the ball defender. You all notice that a lot of teams are becoming jump shooting teams? That might play into it a bit too. Plus Love, and Hawes are smart enough to make adjustments, and make up for their lack of athleticism somewhat.

 

[nbrans]

You could say the same about Webber and Vlade? They both are passing big men with good hands. If you remember when Webber came to town he was considered a post player, as was Vlade with his up and under type shots. They were able to actually compliment each other by Webber playing out high some of the time, and Vlade playing high other times.

Love, and Hawes are the same. Both have a high and both have a low game. Both are good passers (Vlade was considered the best passing center in the league, and Webber was top two with Garnett as best passing PF). They both have the potential to have amazing all around games and it wouldn't surprise me if they played well together.

But Brick is right. Interior D would suffer a bit, but I feel Moore defensively could pick up some of the slack. Moore is a decent on the ball defender. You all notice that a lot of teams are becoming jump shooting teams? That might play into it a bit too. Plus Love, and Hawes are smart enough to make adjustments, and make up for their lack of athleticism somewhat.

Webber was extremely athletic before the injury and a full 6'10". Vlade was very athletic (until he was old), and even when he was old he was still 7'1".

I'm telling you -- Kevin Love is 6'8".

Name one effective 6'8" unathletic power forward in the NBA. Just one.

 

[fnordius]

Plus they both have skills as well. While I think Thabeet has a higher ceiling in potential than Love, I am not sure if Thabeet will ever have the chance to reach it. He is still relatively new to BBall, and Love has been playing his whole life.

Although I haven't been able to reach any decisions about Thabeet, despite having kept an eye on him for a year, I have to say that I favor going for potential over immediate impact. This team's not going anywhere, and with the low picks we keep getting, the guys with both upside and polished skills will be long gone. Our choices are going to be limited to guys with some combination of raw skills and limited upside. In our position, I'd go for the ones with lots of upside and raw skills, even though there's a much higher risk that they'll bomb.

Not that I expect Geoff to agree with me. I think there's very little chance he'd ever pick someone like Thabeet. Big, athletic rebounders/defenders who aren't an offensive threat seem to be Geoff's least favorite kind of player, and he has never taken a chance on a player that might bomb. He'd probably draft us another totally unneeded shooter before he'd do that.

So, while I'm quite open to considering Thabeet, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Right or wrong, I don't think it will happen.

 

[Henkel]

You could say the same about Webber and Vlade? They both are passing big men with good hands. If you remember when Webber came to town he was considered a post player, as was Vlade with his up and under type shots. They were able to actually compliment each other by Webber playing out high some of the time, and Vlade playing high other times.

It is a great luxury to have two big men that can have the offense run through them but not at the expense of interior defense. Although Vlade and Webber were never defensive stoppers or very good help defenders both were capable man to man defenders. I'm a huge fan of Hawes but his man to man defense is poor and his help defense is awful at this point and i think Love will be in worse shape against NBA level athletes. With the number of great athletes playing the 4 in the NBA Love is going to have a tough time defensively. Take him out to about 15-18 feet and then just drive on him all day. A lot of teams are playing big small forwards at the 4 now and Kevin would be hopeless against them. If we had a Hawes Love front line expect every team to pick and roll/pick and pop you death because neither can do much defensively on the perimeter. A elite shot blocker like Thatbeet can cover up allot of mistakes especially on the inside playing next to a poor defender like Hawes.

I also think Thabeets offensive short coming are a bit overstated. A guy of his size who runs the floor like he does and rebounds at a high level could easily be a 10ppg score without ever getting his number called.

I don't dislike Love i just feel like Hawes he would benefit greatly from having a defensive big man behind him to cover up for his weaknesses.

 

[Gary]

Webber was extremely athletic before the injury and a full 6'10". Vlade was very athletic (until he was old), and even when he was old he was still 7'1".

I'm telling you -- Kevin Love is 6'8".

Name one effective 6'8" unathletic power forward in the NBA. Just one.

David Lee (better for the Knicks future imo than Randolph)
Elton Brand (isn't the most athletic anymore, but has long arms and as of last year still stay in front of his man. Last year was getting up into the 280s)

There aren't many 6'8 unathletic PFs in the league, you are right. And we can name 10 who haven't succeeded to 1 that has (even mildly), but that goes for anyone. I can name 10 7'+ guys that have not to every 1 that has. That kind of stuff is going to happen.

But the bottom line is that Love is a freshman playing at the highest level of D1 college basketball, and succeeding. Who's to say he won't in the NBA? Until he is in the NBA we cannot say otherwise. He has a real high BBall IQ, great hands, can shoot outside, and can post up. Rebounds the ball excellent, and is a GREAT kid. Until he is in the NBA we cannot say he won't succeed.

 

[Gary]

Although I haven't been able to reach any decisions about Thabeet, despite having kept an eye on him for a year, I have to say that I favor going for potential over immediate impact. This team's not going anywhere, and with the low picks we keep getting, the guys with both upside and polished skills will be long gone. Our choices are going to be limited to guys with some combination of raw skills and limited upside. In our position, I'd go for the ones with lots of upside and raw skills, even though there's a much higher risk that they'll bomb.

Not that I expect Geoff to agree with me. I think there's very little chance he'd ever pick someone like Thabeet. Big, athletic rebounders/defenders who aren't an offensive threat seem to be Geoff's least favorite kind of player, and he has never taken a chance on a player that might bomb. He'd probably draft us another totally unneeded shooter before he'd do that.

So, while I'm quite open to considering Thabeet, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Right or wrong, I don't think it will happen.

The thing about that is Thabeet isn't a good man on man defender like everyone says. Not that we get many of his games out here, but the ones I caught on ESPN, and all of the highlights it seems he gets scored on by smaller players who can just use speed and go around while he throws his arms up hoping to get a block..

Then I watched the Georgetown game.. WOW.. Hibbert got around Thabeet, and dominated him..

The other issue I have with thabeet is that we have Hawes playing center for the "future Kings". I don't want to see him get messed up playing PF.

 

[fnordius]

David Lee (better for the Knicks future imo than Randolph)

Lee's combine ranking was 11th out of 74, I'm not sure that qualifies as unathletic.

 

[Henkel]

I'm telling you -- Kevin Love is 6'8".

Name one effective 6'8" unathletic power forward in the NBA. Just one.

Love isn't so much unathletic as he is slow. Love has amazing footwork and knows how to use his strength to get great shots for himself on low block. Couple that with amazing hands and he is capable of scoring even below the rim. Size does matter to some extent but like Boozer he is going to be one of those rare NBA power forwards that plays below the basket and is still effective because of their strength and ability to use it to create space to operate down low.

 

[Gary]

I also think Thabeets offensive short coming are a bit overstated. A guy of his size who runs the floor like he does and rebounds at a high level could easily be a 10ppg score without ever getting his number called.

I don't dislike Love i just feel like Hawes he would benefit greatly from having a defensive big man behind him to cover up for his weaknesses.

Totally agree Thabeet can be a 10ppg scorer. Heck, last year towards the end Justin Williams was getting double doubles just on putbacks.

If we want our future to be a half court team than the kings by all means should resign Artest, and draft Thabeet. The best offensive/transition teams have players who can all touch the ball and pass to one another.

Ever notice that the offense stagnates when Artest holds the ball for 15 seconds, or when Moore fumbles the ball out of bounds? Thabeet at this point does not have good hands. He doesn't get the ball in the offense and still averages about 2 turnovers per game. He does score about 10 per game but notice his higher scoring games are when he has a lot of offensive rebounds, or when he takes a lot of foul shots.

 

[Gary]

Lee's combine ranking was 11th out of 74, I'm not sure that qualifies as unathletic.

I am sure you have watched him play right? He was Croshere type athletic...

Justin Williams was ranked pretty low in the combine, but I wouldn't for a second call him unathletic, or say Lee is more athletic than Justin Williams.

 

[fnordius]

The other issue I have with thabeet is that we have Hawes playing center for the "future Kings". I don't want to see him get messed up playing PF.

I've thought about this sort of thing quite a bit, in the context of Brad, and whether to play him at C or PF. In the end, I concluded that it doesn't matter, because the guy who is guarding him may not play the same position he does, the guy he guards may not play the same position either, and whatever you call Brad, he's always going to play exactly like Brad.

Some folks have (over?-)optimistically said that we were one player away from being decent. I'd say that it's at least two... maybe John Stockton and Karl Malone away. We badly need a pass-first PG, and we badly need a big who can and will defend. That last game with Justin was a good display of how our team's defense totally changes when we have a big defender on the floor. Perimeter D gets a lot better, because we no longer have 3 or 4 guys hanging around the paint in case they're needed to play matador. D, in general, just gets a lot better.

I don't have any fixed ideas about what Hawes' future role in the team needs to be, but he is not looking like that guy I just described. Whatever we label him, he's gonna play just like Hawes. So I don't really care if we're going to call him PF or C, or if we'd call someone like Thabeet PF or C. The only thing that concerns me is that we get a defensive big. The rest is just details.

 

[Gary]

OK

Will you agree with me that Love is a better college level player than Thabeet? heh, just playing, but being able to see them both I have come to that conclusion.

Thabeet has the higher ceiling (potential), but Love has a better chance to reach his ceiling than Thabeet does to reach his in the NBA. If they were both to reach it than I would have to say Thabeet will be a better NBA player.

 

[fnordius]

Justin Williams was ranked pretty low in the combine, but I wouldn't for a second call him unathletic, or say Lee is more athletic than Justin Williams.

Yeah... Justin did badly on the bench presses, which dragged his score down. But then he put on 30 or so pounds of muscle over the next several months. That particular kind of "unathletic" isn't very meaningful, since it's easily remedied.

As for Lee, he did better on the lane agility and 3/4 court sprint than Deron Williams or Chris Paul, and that kind of mobility is something that's always going to make a difference.

 

[Henkel]

Totally agree Thabeet can be a 10ppg scorer. Heck, last year towards the end Justin Williams was getting double doubles just on putbacks.

If we want our future to be a half court team than the kings by all means should resign Artest, and draft Thabeet. The best offensive/transition teams have players who can all touch the ball and pass to one another.

Ever notice that the offense stagnates when Artest holds the ball for 15 seconds, or when Moore fumbles the ball out of bounds? Thabeet at this point does not have good hands. He doesn't get the ball in the offense and still averages about 2 turnovers per game. He does score about 10 per game but notice his higher scoring games are when he has a lot of offensive rebounds, or when he takes a lot of foul shots.

Looks like we agree on a lot here. Thabeet offense is limited to mostly offensive rebounds and being the beneficiary of others play making. I also agree that i don't really see that changing as he transitions to playing in the NBA.

Where i think we disagree is the idea that a player like Thatbeet can't play in a transition/offensive style. First of all Thatbeet is excellent at running the floor and is a big target if this team decides it want play a uptempo/transition game. He has decent hands, he tends to turn the ball over offensively when he asked to do too much, but he isn't going to fumble the ball out of bounds like Moore when given the ball down low. This year he has finished extremely well around the basket as his aggressiveness and understanding of where he should be on the floor has improved.

The idea that to be a great offensive team you need 5 players with good passing skill and high basketball IQs isn't always the case. If You have a team with great playmaking a player like Thatbeet can be great asset because he doesnt need the ball in his hands to score and can finish around the basket. A player like Andris Biedrins of GS is a great example of this.

I would also argue that this team has no identity at this point and wont until we find a superstar to build around. Regardless i believe a player like Thabeet is capable of playing either in the half court or up tempo style.

 

[fnordius]

OK

Will you agree with me that Love is a better college level player than Thabeet? heh, just playing, but being able to see them both I have come to that conclusion.

I haven't watched both of them enough to feel like I can say anything authoritative, but I have no reason to disagree that Love's playing better now. I think the disagreement's more about whether that makes him the better choice for NBA ball, and for our roster needs specifically. I've already thrown BMA out the window, since Gerald Wallace showed me that the best man available is totally worthless if he doesn't fit into your roster. Players like that don't even have significant trade value, because nobody's seen 'em, so we've never even gotten a good trade out of a player we didn't need. Picks like that are wasted.

I want a guy that our roster needs.

Thabeet has the higher ceiling (potential), but Love has a better chance to reach his ceiling than Thabeet does to reach his in the NBA. If they were both to reach it than I would have to say Thabeet will be a better NBA player.

No disagreement from me. Thabeet is undoubtedly a risk. I'm just not feeling very risk-averse right now. I don't think we have much to lose.

 

[bajaden]

I think I've said all I need to say about Thabeet and Love. The Rider game was on espn U. I hope some of you had a chance to watch Jason Thompson. In my opinion he's a good compromise between Love and Thabeet. He's athletic and (according to espn and his school he's 6' 11" tall ). He will be in the draft being he's a senior. At this point of his career he's far more skilled than Thabeet. He has a very quick first step off the dribble when going to the basket. Impressive for a big man. He's a very good passer and has a good low post game to go with a 12 to 14ft step back jumper. Tonight he had 33 points and 12 rebounds and basicly was a man amongst boys at this level.
I'm not sure how his rebounding will translate to the NBA. Its hard to judge at this level of competition, but he boxes out well and seems fundamentally sound. He also has very long arms. Is he perfect? NO. He far to often goes for the pump fake under the basket. He also seems to coast sometimes when his team is up by double digits. He needs to improve his free throw shooting.

There were a lot of scouts at the game. I believe he's going to slowly climb up the 1st round ladder. I think this kid is going to be a very good player, and may seem like a reach to some of you right now, but by draft time you may change your mind. gatta go watch ucla now. Mas Tarde...

 

[jimbodan]

I'm almost 100% sure that if Batum is on the board when the Kings pick Petrie will take him no matter what else is available and no matter who else we have on the team. Petrie seems to have a hard on for players like Batum.

 

[fnordius]

Batum = KMart with an accent. And yeah, Geoff would love that. Hopefully he won't still be available.

I'm hoping that Anthony Randolph will be, though. A good compromise between the Thabeet and Love ends of the spectrum. Lots of upside, not much risk.

 

[BritishColumbia]

Batum is much more versatile .... but yes, we do not need him or any other SG/SF.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I'm almost 100% sure that if Batum is on the board when the Kings pick Petrie will take him no matter what else is available and no matter who else we have on the team. Petrie seems to have a hard on for players like Batum.

I'm not sure about the imagery you used, but if Batum is there we better grab him with both hands and run. He is Rudy Gay no.2. He can do everything and is an excellent athlete.

Batum = KMart with an accent. And yeah, Geoff would love that. Hopefully he won't still be available.

From this post I can tell you know absolutely zero about Batum. Care to back up your post? He is absolutely nothing like Martin, the only similar thing is their bodies. But Batum is still a better athlete and has better length. He'll be a far better defender, better passer, rebounder, pretty much everything except for maybe scoring. Batum is a huge prospect. You may want to stick to your American prospects who you can watch regularly, which is fine, but don't be throwing out aimless comments with absolutely no validity.
"KMart with an accent", that has to be one of the quotes of the year in terms of being blatantly wrong.
Likely, Batum won't be available (unfortunately), but if he is, we'd better take him unless another top prospect falls which is probably not going to happen. SF is a need, we don't have a SF of the future. Garcia will never start on a championship team. He'll be a great 6th man, though. Batum has the potential to be a star, and fills a position of need for the future.

Batum is much more versatile .... but yes, we do not need him or any other SG/SF

Batum is a SF. Could you explain how we have a SF of the future in place? It's certainly not Ron, and Garcia isn't good enough to start on a winning team. I agree we don't need another SG, but SF is most definitely a position we need to fill.

 

[bajaden]

The following is a list of players that I think Petrie would be inclined to draft if available. Batum, Gallinari, De Andre Jordon, Budinger, O.J. Mayo, Randoff, Augustin, Thompson, Hibbert. These are all players that could slide to the Kings, and I think that some of them will. I have reservations about O. J. Mayo, only in the sense that I don't think he's a true pt guard.
There's no denying his skills though. All of these players would fill a need for the Kings. I know that many of you don't think we need another SF, but if Artest is gone either by trade or free angency, and you think there's a potential, ( I hate that word ) star there at that position, you have to consider it.
My first choice for big men would be either Lopez or Jordon. But I don't think either will be available. After that I like Thompson or Randoff. From all reports I've read, Thompson is a legit 6' 11" and 250. Both guys have the prototype PF bodies, and both have skills.
Despite his size, I just love Augustin. You just can't watch this guy and not come away loving him. He wouldn't be the worst choice in my opinion.

 

[BritishColumbia]

Batum is a SF. Could you explain how we have a SF of the future in place? It's certainly not Ron, and Garcia isn't good enough to start on a winning team. I agree we don't need another SG, but SF is most definitely a position we need to fill.

We do not know about Ron's decision ... I feel like he is staying for the next season ...

 

[fnordius]

From this post I can tell you know absolutely zero about Batum. Care to back up your post? He is absolutely nothing like Martin

It was meant to be an oversimplification, sorry if it offended you.

At a skinny 6'8" (one inch taller than Garcia or Martin), he is a SF in Europe, but is G/F material in the NBA. He is said to have better wingspan than KMart, and is a better rounded player, but both are best known as shooters who occasionally become too passive and disappear from games. His defense is better (no surprise, Kevin's is quite poor), and he's less willing to initiate contact (also no surprise, few get to the line as often as Kevin), but I find it hard to see what it is about him that should rule out getting one of the kinds of players we desperately need (defensive big, pass-first PG).

The guy has a lot of upside, and may well end up a better overall player than Kevin. Nevertheless, I can't get very excited about any draft candidate who won't routinely grab 7 rebounds or make 4 assists. The logjam at SF/SG means that we'd not just need to blow up the team, but to blow it up beyond all recognition, before we could properly utilize the guy. That is absolutely not going to happen before draft night, and may not happen at all. Three years from now, Garcia, Salmons and Martin may well be most of what's left of the current team. On the other hand, we have the following worthy players signed to play PG and PF for us next year: .

So forgive me if I can't get excited about adding to the logjam with another shooter.

 

[Dime Dropper]

It was meant to be an oversimplification, sorry if it offended you.

At a skinny 6'8" (one inch taller than Garcia or Martin), he is a SF in Europe, but is G/F material in the NBA. He is said to have better wingspan than KMart, and is a better rounded player, but both are best known as shooters who occasionally become too passive and disappear from games. His defense is better (no surprise, Kevin's is quite poor), and he's less willing to initiate contact (also no surprise, few get to the line as often as Kevin), but I find it hard to see what it is about him that should rule out getting one of the kinds of players we desperately need (defensive big, pass-first PG).

The guy has a lot of upside, and may well end up a better overall player than Kevin. Nevertheless, I can't get very excited about any draft candidate who won't routinely grab 7 rebounds or make 4 assists. The logjam at SF/SG means that we'd not just need to blow up the team, but to blow it up beyond all recognition, before we could properly utilize the guy. That is absolutely not going to happen before draft night, and may not happen at all. Three years from now, Garcia, Salmons and Martin may well be most of what's left of the current team. On the other hand, we have the following worthy players signed to play PG and PF for us next year: .

So forgive me if I can't get excited about adding to the logjam with another shooter.

You didn't offend me, and sorry if I came across as harsh. But, to be honest, you don't seem to know alot about him. I don't know where you saw that, but Batum is not a shooter. He can shoot, but he is a do-it-all type player. He is not regarded as a shooter by anyone that actually knows how he plays. I find the KMart comparions as off as you could possibly get.

6'8'' is perfect size for a SF, could you explain how the fact that he's European would move him down a spot in the NBA? He is extremely long, and he has a big frame to add weight. He is prototypical size for a SF in the NBA. I honestly don't see how the fact that he's European (or plays in Europe) would have anything to do with what he plays in the NBA

Batum is 19, name me a prospect outside of the top 5 who never disappears in their young careers? He's also playing in a professional league at 19, in a more team orientated game than the college one. To your point about "blowing the team up" - that's what has to be done. I can't see any of our SFs other than Garcia being here in 4 years. Ron will be gone in the next couple seasons and if Salmons isn't traded he likely will not be resigned. What's so unrealistic about that? This team is in a rebuilding phase, surely it's not unrealistic to think the team will change greatly over the next few seasons. Why would it have to happen before draft night? Batum will not play much in his first two/three seasons. He is relatively raw and will take time to adjust to the NBA game. Anybody expecting a ready contributor from our 12th pick is in for a surprise. Impact players can't be had at our pick.

We do not have a "desperate need". We are not trying to fill a need for now, we are building for the future. Taking the current needs of the team into account now is simply redundant as many of those players won't be around by the time the chosen rookies will be at their best. Our "needs" are PG, SF and PF. Take the best player available at those positions. Grabbing for needs will lead to us kicking ourselves down the road when we have everything but that star player we passed on in years prior. And then we'll be right back where we are now, with a supporting cast but no star. And those stars are pretty hard to get.

 

[fnordius]

I can't see any of our SFs other than Garcia being here in 4 years.

Right, in 4 years, the logjam will probably be over. Where we differ is that you seem to think that Batum is so amazing that we should pack in yet another wing player, then totally build around him. My thought is that, if Batum is clearly destined to be a superstar, he won't be around at #12 anyway. I might be convinced otherwise, but I haven't been so far.

 

[Gary]

bleeech.. Watched the WV, UCONN game today? Yikes... Thabeet was in foul trouble, and only got a couple points and a couple rebounds in about 20 minutes. A lot of the time he was guarding Alexander who just went off on him. 32 points, and 10 boards.. (6 offensive), but a lot were when Thabeet was on the bench...

UCONN still won though, but it got close near the end.

Kinda bummed that I caught a Thabeet game, and he didn't even play much GRRR......

 

[Gary]

Someone mentioned Hibbert above.. I cannot see an Eddie Curry clone being drafted. Sorry 6 boards in 30 minutes is bad, and he has 4 years of bad rebounding which probably will get worse in the pros. I see an Eddie Curry type rebounding center in Hibbert.