Kevin Martin re-signs (latest update)
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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I have really mixed feelings about this.
Oh, not in re-signing Martin. They should re-sign him. But my hesitation has two fronts:
1) Can they get him for an average of $11 million/year? I think what we're seeing here is what the Kings offered, but I'm not sure his agent has agreed to that. I think he sort of figures, One more year like last year (but with somewhat better consistency), and he'll be a bargain at $11 million. I think the offer has to be for more than that.
2) This team still has 5 clunker salaries they're wearing like albatrosses. It's not that signing Martin is bad; it's just that signing Martin in addition to the guaranteed contracts they already have, including 5 that will be exceedingly difficult to trade away for at least two years, means we already have an excellent idea how the team will perform over the next two years. Which is to say, I'm supposed to fork over $50 a game to see THAT??
They gotta keep Martin, but I'd gamble a bit here and get anything for one of their 5 clunkers first. Take a chance; don't sign Martin until, at least, Miller and KT are gone. If you do, you guarantee that Miller and KT will play the rest of their careers here.
I know that letter writer, Mark Crusha, in yesterday's Bee was a little rough in his letter, but I think he sort of had the right idea.
http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/345186.html
Oh, not in re-signing Martin. They should re-sign him. But my hesitation has two fronts:
1) Can they get him for an average of $11 million/year? I think what we're seeing here is what the Kings offered, but I'm not sure his agent has agreed to that. I think he sort of figures, One more year like last year (but with somewhat better consistency), and he'll be a bargain at $11 million. I think the offer has to be for more than that.
2) This team still has 5 clunker salaries they're wearing like albatrosses. It's not that signing Martin is bad; it's just that signing Martin in addition to the guaranteed contracts they already have, including 5 that will be exceedingly difficult to trade away for at least two years, means we already have an excellent idea how the team will perform over the next two years. Which is to say, I'm supposed to fork over $50 a game to see THAT??
They gotta keep Martin, but I'd gamble a bit here and get anything for one of their 5 clunkers first. Take a chance; don't sign Martin until, at least, Miller and KT are gone. If you do, you guarantee that Miller and KT will play the rest of their careers here.
I know that letter writer, Mark Crusha, in yesterday's Bee was a little rough in his letter, but I think he sort of had the right idea.
http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/345186.html
He's gonna sign. You can take that to the bank. And, for the record, you don't wait until the last minute to sign. It shows a lack of faith in the player, a lack of respect for what he's done AND it sends the totally wrong message to the fans.
As far as the letter you linked to..that's not even worth talking about, especially in a thread devoted to a discussion of Kevin Martin.
As far as the letter you linked to..that's not even worth talking about, especially in a thread devoted to a discussion of Kevin Martin.
Couple things...
1. You also have to remember to account for inflation. If Rip and Ginobili signed their deals this season they probably would be making 11 or 12 million per year instead of 9. Salaries tend to increase. So if you can get Martin signed for 11 million this season, when the salary cap increases and the next round of ridiculous contracts come up (ie Rashard Lewis) that 11 million will be an even bigger bargain. That's why you sign the extension now instead of waiting.
2. If you wait to sign Martin because of all the huge contracts we already have, you're going to risk losing him completely. Martin is the only player on this team that you really want to stick around. How would it make sense not to pay him because of a bunch of other players we're trying to get rid of? Yes ideally it would be nice to not be paying guys huge salaries for another two losing seasons, but unless some deal comes up we're already stuck with that. The next three seasons are going to be hard to take -- we know that already. That's why so many of us are discouraged by Petrie's unwillingness or inability to trim the payroll. But you don't cover up your mistakes with another one. Re-signing Martin should be priority #1 for the future of this team.
1. You also have to remember to account for inflation. If Rip and Ginobili signed their deals this season they probably would be making 11 or 12 million per year instead of 9. Salaries tend to increase. So if you can get Martin signed for 11 million this season, when the salary cap increases and the next round of ridiculous contracts come up (ie Rashard Lewis) that 11 million will be an even bigger bargain. That's why you sign the extension now instead of waiting.
2. If you wait to sign Martin because of all the huge contracts we already have, you're going to risk losing him completely. Martin is the only player on this team that you really want to stick around. How would it make sense not to pay him because of a bunch of other players we're trying to get rid of? Yes ideally it would be nice to not be paying guys huge salaries for another two losing seasons, but unless some deal comes up we're already stuck with that. The next three seasons are going to be hard to take -- we know that already. That's why so many of us are discouraged by Petrie's unwillingness or inability to trim the payroll. But you don't cover up your mistakes with another one. Re-signing Martin should be priority #1 for the future of this team.
Given that I put together that list, just a methodology note. Because what I did was simply take the remaining years on the players' contracts, and divide the total remaining years into the total remaining $$, the effect is actually somewhat the OPPOSITE of the above.
In other words, Kevin at 5yrs $55 ($11mil/season) million is the full contract. But when I say Rip at 3yrs $31.5mil ($10.5mil/season) that is actually making it look like Rip got paid MORE than he did intiially. In almost all cases of guys in the middle of contracts, the cheapest years of their contracts are behind them, So just looking at what's remaining actually artificially INFLATES how much they were getting paid. It would be like just looking at the last 3 yrs of the proposed deal for Kevin, which might be something like $11, $12, $13, and putting him up on the list at 3yrs $36 mil ($12mil per).
There's nothing false or misleading about the numbers as posted -- they just are what the players are getting paid over the next however many years. But it does make all the long term guys look like they were signed to slightly bigger per yr deals than they were. Rip for instance probably initially signed something like a 5yr $50mil deal, at $10mil/season. Its only the last years fo his deal that come out to $10.5 per.
I don't know if I'd offer Kevin Martin five years, $55 million. That seems pretty high for a guy who has only had one really good year. He is not Rip Hamilton, who had shown his ability over several seasons, and he is not Manu Ginobili, who has a much more all-around game.
That having been said, it's not much more than I would have expected. I was still stuck in the old CBA, where we would have been able to offer a six year extension this summer, and that would have been about $55 million in my mind. Instead of $11 million per, it would have been closer to $9 million per, and that's an easier pill to swallow.
I guess my issue is that we still don't have any idea what this team is going to look like in a year or two, but we're throwing big money at a one-dimensional player who hasn't really proven he's worth that kind of money. But it is the going rate, so... oh well.
Let's see how far under the cap we can get in two seasons, now that Kevin will be eating up another $9 million or so in cap space.
That having been said, it's not much more than I would have expected. I was still stuck in the old CBA, where we would have been able to offer a six year extension this summer, and that would have been about $55 million in my mind. Instead of $11 million per, it would have been closer to $9 million per, and that's an easier pill to swallow.
I guess my issue is that we still don't have any idea what this team is going to look like in a year or two, but we're throwing big money at a one-dimensional player who hasn't really proven he's worth that kind of money. But it is the going rate, so... oh well.
Let's see how far under the cap we can get in two seasons, now that Kevin will be eating up another $9 million or so in cap space.
We aren't Detroit and we aren't San Antonio
Rip & Manu were both resigned to contending teams. In those situations, I think the player takes a smaller salary to stick with a good situation.
Now... on the current Kings.. I think you try for a higher salary because the prospects of winning are.. what's the word here?
Anyway, good teams sign good players for good salaries. What do crappy teams do?
Rip & Manu were both resigned to contending teams. In those situations, I think the player takes a smaller salary to stick with a good situation.
Now... on the current Kings.. I think you try for a higher salary because the prospects of winning are.. what's the word here?
Anyway, good teams sign good players for good salaries. What do crappy teams do?
Yeah if he is a big man. Don't get me wrong, I like him, but he cannot take over a game and does not make others better. So why are we going to give him 1/5 of the salary cap? If he had a 5 year starting at 6, that would be about a 40 million dollar deal.
This is why teams get in trouble, they give slightly above average players big contacts.
This is why teams get in trouble, they give slightly above average players big contacts.
You could make the same case for Rip and a couple other guys like that who are older and play on better teams but get similar ammounts. Sorry but I think saying Kevin is slightly above average is just delusional and an excuse to criticize something. He's only 24 years old, he works like crazy, he has a ton of room to improve and you want to pay him less than Kenny makes? Sorry but that is just delusional.
Its Confirmed
Kings sign Martin to five-year extension
By Sam Amick - Bee Staff Writer
Published 10:33 pm PDT Monday, August 27, 2007
"K-Mart" is no longer a blue-light special.
According to two league sources, fourth-year shooting guard Kevin Martin late Monday night agreed to terms of a five-year extension with the Kings worth approximately $55 million. Martin, whose breakout 2006-07 season will vault him into the upper pay ranks of the league's shooting guards, unexpectedly flew in from his training hub at the IMG Academies in Bradenton, Fla., and arrived in Sacramento on Monday in anticipation of signing his new contract. A news conference is expected this week to announce the deal.
The Kings had until Oct. 31 to finalize an extension, but discussions between Kings basketball president Geoff Petrie and Martin's agent, Jason Levien, began in early August. The Kings' initial offer was approximately $43 million, with the rising price tag a clear sign of the organization's interest in making Martin a major piece of the new rebuilding era. Martin -- who is scheduled to leave Friday for Africa as part of the NBA's "Basketball without Borders" program - could not be reached for comment.
Levien declined comment when reached by phone.
Martin's deal - which starts in the 2008-09 season -- is among the largest signed in the league this offseason.
While it's nowhere near the six-year, $112.8 million contract of Orlando small forward Rashard Lewis, it is in the neighborhood of recent deals given to two-time All-Star point guard Chauncey Billups (five years, $60.5 million) and former Kings small forward Gerald Wallace of Charlotte (five years, $47.5 million).
Ironically, Martin's earnings are most comparable by position the player he has resembled much of his game after -- two-time All-Star Richard Hamilton. The Detroit shooting guard is owed $10.6 million next season. Atlanta shooting guard Joe Johnson, by further comparison, will earn $13.2 million this season.
While Martin will earn $1.8 million this season, his contract would make him the third-highest paid Kings player when it begins. Kings center Brad Miller is owed $11.4 million for the 2008-09 season, and point guard Mike Bibby -- who has a player option for that season -- would be owed $14.5 million.
The decision to secure Martin is the team's most significant move in an offseason that has been surprisingly quiet. Beyond the hiring of coach Reggie Theus and the signing of veteran big man Mikki Moore, the Kings have come far from reshuffling the roster that won just 33 games last season. Martin, though, is being rewarded for serving as a rare highlight of an otherwise-dreary season.
The same player who was left off the playoff roster in 2005 as a rookie led the team in scoring last season (20.2 points per game) and shot 47.3 percent from the field. He trailed only Golden State's Monta Ellis in Most Improved Player voting, making a name one of the league's most efficient scorers. Aside from Phoenix center Amare Stoudemire, no other player averaged 20-plus points while taking less than 14 shots per game.
http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/347681.html
Couple things:
1) interesting/amusing how many things in this article resemble things said in this thread. Odd how that happens.
2) we started it at $43mil and got worked all the way up to $55mil?
Kings sign Martin to five-year extension
By Sam Amick - Bee Staff Writer
Published 10:33 pm PDT Monday, August 27, 2007
"K-Mart" is no longer a blue-light special.
According to two league sources, fourth-year shooting guard Kevin Martin late Monday night agreed to terms of a five-year extension with the Kings worth approximately $55 million. Martin, whose breakout 2006-07 season will vault him into the upper pay ranks of the league's shooting guards, unexpectedly flew in from his training hub at the IMG Academies in Bradenton, Fla., and arrived in Sacramento on Monday in anticipation of signing his new contract. A news conference is expected this week to announce the deal.
The Kings had until Oct. 31 to finalize an extension, but discussions between Kings basketball president Geoff Petrie and Martin's agent, Jason Levien, began in early August. The Kings' initial offer was approximately $43 million, with the rising price tag a clear sign of the organization's interest in making Martin a major piece of the new rebuilding era. Martin -- who is scheduled to leave Friday for Africa as part of the NBA's "Basketball without Borders" program - could not be reached for comment.
Levien declined comment when reached by phone.
Martin's deal - which starts in the 2008-09 season -- is among the largest signed in the league this offseason.
While it's nowhere near the six-year, $112.8 million contract of Orlando small forward Rashard Lewis, it is in the neighborhood of recent deals given to two-time All-Star point guard Chauncey Billups (five years, $60.5 million) and former Kings small forward Gerald Wallace of Charlotte (five years, $47.5 million).
Ironically, Martin's earnings are most comparable by position the player he has resembled much of his game after -- two-time All-Star Richard Hamilton. The Detroit shooting guard is owed $10.6 million next season. Atlanta shooting guard Joe Johnson, by further comparison, will earn $13.2 million this season.
While Martin will earn $1.8 million this season, his contract would make him the third-highest paid Kings player when it begins. Kings center Brad Miller is owed $11.4 million for the 2008-09 season, and point guard Mike Bibby -- who has a player option for that season -- would be owed $14.5 million.
The decision to secure Martin is the team's most significant move in an offseason that has been surprisingly quiet. Beyond the hiring of coach Reggie Theus and the signing of veteran big man Mikki Moore, the Kings have come far from reshuffling the roster that won just 33 games last season. Martin, though, is being rewarded for serving as a rare highlight of an otherwise-dreary season.
The same player who was left off the playoff roster in 2005 as a rookie led the team in scoring last season (20.2 points per game) and shot 47.3 percent from the field. He trailed only Golden State's Monta Ellis in Most Improved Player voting, making a name one of the league's most efficient scorers. Aside from Phoenix center Amare Stoudemire, no other player averaged 20-plus points while taking less than 14 shots per game.
http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/347681.html
Couple things:
1) interesting/amusing how many things in this article resemble things said in this thread. Odd how that happens.
2) we started it at $43mil and got worked all the way up to $55mil?
"The decision to secure Martin is the team's most significant move in an offseason that has been surprisingly quiet. Beyond the hiring of coach Reggie Theus and the signing of veteran big man Mikki Moore, the Kings have come far from reshuffling the roster that won just 33 games last season."
Only surprising to those who expected even marginal competance from Petrie.
Only surprising to those who expected even marginal competance from Petrie.
Second in the MIP and even with Stoudemire in averaging 20+ points on less than 14 shots per game.
That right there convinces me he's worth it.
That right there convinces me he's worth it.
Ew...I find that second stat pretty sloppy:
Basically when you think about it there are less than 10 players in the league who would have any shot at it. The really BIG scorers, the 25ppg guys are always going to be taking 15 or more shots. So they are all out. Obviously anybody under 20ppg is out. So basically it leaves you with the guys who just barely snuck over 20ppg. And then of course it falls right back into that mysterious blindspot in NBA recordkeeping -- the idea that somehow FTs are magical and do not consume possessions or shots. Even in the rare case where that is not true -- technical FTs -- that's actually nothing to brag about gettng extra points for. Its actually a false inflater of stats not earned during normal play rather than a sign of transcendant quality.
Does make Gerald's deal look kind of weak in comparison.
Of course if the article is correct, we came in at $43 mil and got dragged upwards by $12 million, which is a ton. While I think the $55 is within the bounds of reason, I'm mildly surprised given Gerald's deal and Rip's that we weren't able to hold some kind of line there -- maybe at about $50mil or so..
He's a one dimensional player. I like his game, and he is young and should get better, but he is what he is right now. We're paying him for his potential, and that could wind up being a big mistake if that potential goes unfulfilled.
I don't see why we gave him more than the Bobcats gave Gerald Wallace. Almost as much as the Pistons gave Chauncey Billups. We overpaid. Not by enough to really complain, but we still overpaid. I think we could have had him for less than $55 million, given the market this summer.
I don't see why we gave him more than the Bobcats gave Gerald Wallace. Almost as much as the Pistons gave Chauncey Billups. We overpaid. Not by enough to really complain, but we still overpaid. I think we could have had him for less than $55 million, given the market this summer.