Kobe

[Gargamel]

Some people say that malone is a great player, but I agree with you that he is junk, he couldnt even win a ring with Shaq, Kobe and phil.

More disinformation. Malone was the sole glue of that squad and he missed 40 games that year and then reinjured his knee during Gm2 of the Finals. Prior to that he single-covered Duncan and held him to 17 ppg and sub-.400 shooting over the final 4 games of the Semis. The Lakers were forced to have Medvedenko assume most of his minutes against Sheed. He missed Gm5 entirely.

Malone was the lone bright spot of that season (when he played).

PS: I'll go out on a limb and say that comparing Tmac to Kobe is pretty silly.

 

[BMiller52]

Nice straw man argument guys. I never said Odom was Scottie Pippen's 2nd coming. I never said Arenas was an MVP guy. I never said any of that stuff.

I am just saying, before Kobe is mentioned with Jordan and Bird and Wilt HE SHOULD ATLEAST MAKE THE 2ND ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS WITHOUT SHAQ.

 

[Gargamel]

Nice straw man argument guys. I never said Odom was Scottie Pippen's 2nd coming. I never said Arenas was an MVP guy. I never said any of that stuff.

I am just saying, before Kobe is mentioned with Jordan and Bird and Wilt HE SHOULD ATLEAST MAKE THE 2ND ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS WITHOUT SHAQ.

So in effect your also arguing that Kobe wasn't a great player when Shaq was still on the team (...since Shaq evidently determines Kobe's greatness). That Kobe wasn't great in 2000, 2001, 2002... He was just a good player.... Kings, Spurs, and Blazers didn't sweat him that much...

Bird? When'd he ever have a bad supporting cast? Wilt had a HOFer on his team when he first made it past round 1. Took Jordan 4 years to make it out of round 1. The 1st round thing is just a random abstract because the Lakers could end up beating SA if Duncan got hurt and then you'd have your asterisks ready. Or the Lakers could theoretically meet Utah, who has much less status than SA, Dallas, or Phx. I think Utah is the one team of those 4 that LA could beat by Kobe scoring a lot. I bet if that scenario happened, Kobe wouldn't get credit because they're Utah... It's not like beating SA.

 

[tyrant]

Great post BM

I dont understand why many people call Jerry sloan a great coach, all he has done was ride the coattails of malone and stockton through all those years and still couldnt win a ring. He has got Fisher now with those three rings and that team is doing good and can make some splash in the playoffs.

Agent Zero is the best the east can offer now and i dont know why people are not even considering him for the mvp race, cmon they are only talking about nash and dirk and if at all it gets to the next person its kobe. How pathetic for all these sportswriters and announcers and experts are all idiots that they are not able to understand that simple point. Zero has made butler and jamison a lot better and is carrying that team to 50 wins. Thats a huge turnaround from when he was with jamison earlier and couldnt even sniff playoffs with the warriors.

With Phil, do you have a position yet (are you saying that Phil is great, or will you come back in another topic and say that any coach can win with that team the bulls had or the lakers had ) Once you are decided on that we will talk about phil.

I cannot agree about MJ, what has he won without scottie. He couldnt even take a team to the playoffs without scottie carrying the team. That talented wizards team could have easily made the finals with rip and stackhouse and he just brought that team down. Whereas scottie onthe other hand took the rockets to the playoffs which only had washed up players like barkley and hakeem. He took that blazers team to the WCF where they lost to the eventual champions in 7 games. That team was filled with no names such as rasheed wallace, sabonis, damon etc. The way he taught rasheed is what made him an eventual champion

Absolutely Shaq is the reason why they won the ring last year, too bad they didnt give him the finals mvp. That team was shown up this year with shaq out of the line up and the finals mvp couldnt even get that team to .500.
By the way would love to hear your take on DWade, cos I think you would also agree with me about how over hyped he is and he was just riding shaqs coattails last year in the playoffs.

Interestingly one place where i would really like to tap into your wisdom is that this guy is a waste but still all players in the league keep referring to him as the best in the world now.

All these sports experts I dont know why they keep telling that his supporting cast is weak, when they clearly have lamar odom and walton who are superstars. Its not like he has made no names and no talents such as josh howard, jason terry and dampier play at a high level and maintain the best record, whose sixth man once had the scoring title for the year.

I dont know why all these guys and coaches say that playing the lakers in the playoffs would be dangerous.

what?

 

[BMiller52]

So in effect your also arguing that Kobe wasn't a great player when Shaq was still on the team (...since Shaq evidently determines Kobe's greatness). That Kobe wasn't great in 2000, 2001, 2002... He was just a good player.... Kings, Spurs, and Blazers didn't sweat him that much...

Bird? When'd he ever have a bad supporting cast? Wilt had a HOFer on his team when he first made it past round 1. Took Jordan 4 years to make it out of round 1. The 1st round thing is just a random abstract because the Lakers could end up beating SA if Duncan got hurt and then you'd have your asterisks ready. Or the Lakers could theoretically meet Utah, who has much less status than SA, Dallas, or Phx. I think Utah is the one team of those 4 that LA could beat by Kobe scoring a lot. I bet if that scenario happened, Kobe wouldn't get credit because they're Utah... It's not like beating SA.

I'm not saying Kobe isn't a very good player. I have him around 20th all time. But 1. he hasn't proven he can be the best player on a championship team, which all of those guys were, and 2. he hasn't even lead his own team out of the 1st round. So I don't see how people can say he's top 10 all time or top 15 all time and say he's as good as Wilt, MJ, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc.

 

[vladetomiller]

More disinformation. Malone was the sole glue of that squad and he missed 40 games that year and then reinjured his knee during Gm2 of the Finals. Prior to that he single-covered Duncan and held him to 17 ppg and sub-.400 shooting over the final 4 games of the Semis. The Lakers were forced to have Medvedenko assume most of his minutes against Sheed. He missed Gm5 entirely.

Malone was the lone bright spot of that season (when he played).

PS: I'll go out on a limb and say that comparing Tmac to Kobe is pretty silly.

Too bad you didnt understand the sarcasm

 

[BMiller52]

Too bad you didnt understand the sarcasm

Yeah nice job of using sarcasm to create some straw man arguments there.

 

[vladetomiller]

I'm not saying Kobe isn't a very good player. I have him around 20th all time. But 1. he hasn't proven he can be the best player on a championship team, which all of those guys were, and 2. he hasn't even lead his own team out of the 1st round. So I don't see how people can say he's top 10 all time or top 15 all time and say he's as good as Wilt, MJ, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc.

Since you are discounting the seasons when kobe and shaq took the team past the first round, you should also discount the seasons MJ and scottie won together.

So after Scottie left, MJ was not even able to take his team to the playoffs, why do you have him on your list.

 

[vladetomiller]

Yeah nice job of using sarcasm to create some straw man arguments there.

And your arguments are all objective

 

[BMiller52]

Since you are discounting the seasons when kobe and shaq took the team past the first round, you should also discount the seasons MJ and scottie won together.

So after Scottie left, MJ was not even able to take his team to the playoffs, why do you have him on your list.

Because MJ was the best player on those teams. He LEAD them somewhere. If a player is going to be mentioned with the all time greats like MJ, Wilt, Bird, Russel, etc. they either better LEAD their team to some rings, or they atleast need some MVPs. Kobe has(done) neither. You are acting like I said Kobe's not **** but all I'm saying is he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with MJ, Bird, Wilt, etc. when he HASN'T EVEN LEAD HIS TEAM ANYWHERE. I already said I have him around 20th all time. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you .

 

[vladetomiller]

Because MJ was the best player on those teams. He LEAD them somewhere. If a player is going to be mentioned with the all time greats like MJ, Wilt, Bird, Russel, etc. they either better LEAD their team to some rings, or they atleast need some MVPs. Kobe has(done) neither. You are acting like I said Kobe's not **** but all I'm saying is he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with MJ, Bird, Wilt, etc. when he HASN'T EVEN LEAD HIS TEAM ANYWHERE. I already said I have him around 20th all time. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you .

Without MJ in that team they still won 55 games in a season and were one controversial foul call away from an ECF berth. So you can say that MJ was the best player on that team, I dont have to buy into that theory. I say that Scottie was the best player on that team and MJ was his sidekick.

If you think otherwise prove me wrong, I am sure it is going to as difficult for you to prove it otherwise as other would find to prove that Kobe was as important to the championship run as shaq was.

So give it a shot and prove with facts that MJ was better than Scottie, maybe his numbers were better, but that means that he is a better scorer.

Try to counter my argument, MJ after scottie left was a total failure, hence I conclude that Scottie was more the reason the bulls won than MJ. Dont come up with strawman arguments, come up with facts the same way you expected others to give you facts for the kobe comparison. Mind you both didnt have phil on their side as well

 

[BMiller52]

MJ is basically considered the GOAT. He has MVPs, he has a DPOY, he has (correct me if I'm wrong) the all time average in PPG. He LEAD that team to 6 titles. Hell I have even seen Pippen say basically that on TV before.

Jordan's teams won 67 games, 69 games, and 72 games. 69 and 72 are the 2 highest win totals in NBA history. Bringing up his short stint in Washington is rediculous considering he was like 40 years old with jacked up knees and you know what's funny? He actually nearly lead that team to the playoffs.

So where do you rank Pippen all time? You obviously think pretty highly of him if you're saying he's better than MJ. Do you rank him higher than Kobe? Because there's no way Kobe's career>MJ's career.

 

[vladetomiller]

MJ is basically considered the GOAT. He has MVPs, he has a DPOY, he has (correct me if I'm wrong) the all time average in PPG. He LEAD that team to 6 titles. Hell I have even seen Pippen say basically that on TV before.

Jordan's teams won 67 games, 69 games, and 72 games. 69 and 72 are the 2 highest win totals in NBA history. Bringing up his short stint in Washington is rediculous considering he was like 40 years old with jacked up knees and you know what's funny? He actually nearly lead that team to the playoffs.

So where do you rank Pippen all time? You obviously think pretty highly of him if you're saying he's better than MJ. Do you rank him higher than Kobe? Because there's no way Kobe's career>MJ's career.

1. He won those 6 rings with Pippen and Phil, as per your example earlier about shaq and kobe can you show me when MJ won without scottie. In fact MJs career was more of a first round exits and in fact sweeps at the hand of larry, atleast kobe took it to 7 games.

To be more precise about your point, Shaq called kobe as the best player on the planet after the SA series.

2. Ah, the excuses. Those high wins came with Scottie, without Scottie MJ couldnt even take a talented team to the playoffs. You are arguing about Kobe's team now, saying they are talented. Show me how this team is better than the team that MJ had in DC.

3. I know where I would rank Kobe, MJ and Scottie. But I guess thats not how the discussion started, you discounted Kobe's achievements saying he hasnt taken the team to the next level, so thats where we are staying

I understand your hatred for Kobe, but I find it funny that you are taking it to a level where you are not appreciating basic things in basketball. I know that MJ is one of the top 3 greatest ever to play and Kobe is not there yet. But my arguments are just to show how your arguments look like. You still havent proven me otherwise with facts, you just pull out stuff what people say and how others perceive. Whereas when it comes to Kobe you discount everything that others say.

 

[BMiller52]

My hatred for Kobe? ROFLMAO. I don't hate him, I don't like him but I don't hate him. I am NOT discounting his accomplishments, but I fail to see how a few regular season games put him above guys who have more rings and LEAD their teams. Jordan has finals MVPs. Show me Kobe's finals MVPs. He doesn't have nearly as many as Jordan, hell I don't think he even has ONE.


Kobe fans are rediculous. You guys actually think Kobe>Jordan? The GOAT? WTF?

 

[KiNgMyC]

4 straight games

 

[Freakout]

My hatred for Kobe? ROFLMAO. I don't hate him, I don't like him but I don't hate him. I am NOT discounting his accomplishments, but I fail to see how a few regular season games put him above guys who have more rings and LEAD their teams. Jordan has finals MVPs. Show me Kobe's finals MVPs. He doesn't have nearly as many as Jordan, hell I don't think he even has ONE.


Kobe fans are rediculous. You guys actually think Kobe>Jordan? The GOAT? WTF?

The moment Kobe gets a roster that comes close to the one Jordan had and still fails to do anything with it then feel free to bash him all you want. Problem is Kobe doesn't have the best defender, best rebounder, the best perimeter shooter, and a roster full of solid veterans on his team. Hell he doesn't have a single Allstar on his team.

 

[SacKings384]

Got 50 again... Although this one was pretty crappy... He wasn't going to get 50 and the refs gave him a few bs calls to get him his points. But 4 straight 50+'s...

 

[BMiller52]

Odom is nearly all star calibre.

Talk to me when Kobe gets 3 or 4 MVPs, when he gets multiple finals MVPs, when he gets 70 wins as THE BEST PLAYER, etc.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

2. Ah, the excuses. Those high wins came with Scottie, without Scottie MJ couldnt even take a talented team to the playoffs. You are arguing about Kobe's team now, saying they are talented. Show me how this team is better than the team that MJ had in DC.

Wait, what?

Talented team? Are referring to the 2001-02 team whose third-best player was Chris Whitney? Or the 2002-03 "powerhouse" trio of Jordan, Stackhouse and Hughes? They had talent?

When your third-best player is Chris F. Whitney, you don't deserve to go to the playoffs, I'm sorry.

 

[Freakout]

Odom is nearly all star calibre.

Talk to me when Kobe gets 3 or 4 MVPs, when he gets multiple finals MVPs, when he gets 70 wins as THE BEST PLAYER, etc.

Nearly? Well geee isn't that special.

 

[BMiller52]

It's not like we're comparing Kobe to just anyone guys, we're comparing him to the GOAT in MJ and no he is not the GOAT. He is not Michael Jordan. He is not better than Michael Jordan. He is not as accomplished as Michael Jordan. Sorry.

 

[acisking]

HOLY CRAP! Kobe scored 50 points AGAIN...for the fourth straight game!!!

 

[Ryle]

Got 50 again... Although this one was pretty crappy... He wasn't going to get 50 and the refs gave him a few bs calls to get him his points. But 4 straight 50+'s...

Dude is averaging 35 shots a game during this "run" plus he's getting to the line like 12-15 times a game. All that and he only had time to dole out 1 assist??

The only good thing about this is the fact that his team is winning while he is doing this.

 

[Superman]

Oh, more than one year. Missed the playoffs, then a first round bump, and now will be another first round bump. Definitely a question that will remain until/unless he has any real success on his own.

I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna defend Kobe Bryant. I refuse to.

Let's just say that the Lakers suck, sans Kobe. Absolutely suck. Whomp. And all else. No doubt about it.

Bottom line is that I don't think that one season of missing the playoffs with a terrible team (not to mention the fact that in that season, the Lakers dealt with a coaching disaster, and it was the first season Kobe was "the man" on a team that hadn't been built to complement him) and another of getting bumped in the first round against the 2nd seeded team in the conference ... I don't think that's enough to even formulate a question with. I don't think it's reasonable to question his ability to lead his team when his team is terrible.

And his team is terrible. No matter how many arguments are made about Gilbert Arenas and the Wizards (who have been together for several seasons and haven't had to deal with as many significant injuries to significant players), comparing Kobe's Lakers to Jordan's Bulls, or Wilt or Larry, or any of those largely irrelevant lines of reasoning. There isn't a legitimate amount of supporting cast to expect Kobe to lead his team out of the playoffs. I'm personally surprised that they're still in the playoffs. Which is mostly due to how terrible the Western conference is after the top four teams.

This sounds like the criticism Peyton Manning has had to deal with since he entered the NFL. Difference being that Peyton Manning is likeable, and Kobe isn't, for the most part. But same criticisms and questions, and I always felt they were unfounded. When your team has gaping holes at important positions, it's unreasonable to expect the team to have any amount of success, no matter how good the best player is.

Different sport, different circumstance, etc. I'm not comparing Kobe with Peyton Manning. All I'm saying is that, even if these Lakers, the way they're currently comprised, never get out of the first round, I wouldn't fault Kobe. Same as I never understood faulting Peyton Manning for his team's failure to win the Super Bowl. And interesting how when the Colts finally won the Super Bowl, it wasn't Peyton Manning putting up huge numbers like he has his entire career. It was the rest of his team taking care of all the things they'd failed to take care of in previous years.

I don't expect the Lakers to have anything close to postseason success until the team improves, overall. Including Kobe becoming a better leader, but the team sucks. And it's not Kobe's fault.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I will agree that it's not immediately Bryant's fault that the team is sub-par, but only in the same sense that I don't think it's immediately Kevin Garnett's fault that Minnesota is terrible.

Of course, in both cases, I think that it could be fairly argued that if they had been willing to take less money, management would be in a better position to surround them with more talent.

 

[hoopsfan]

I will agree that it's not immediately Bryant's fault that the team is sub-par, but only in the same sense that I don't think it's immediately Kevin Garnett's fault that Minnesota is terrible.

Of course, in both cases, I think that it could be fairly argued that if they had been willing to take less money, management would be in a better position to surround them with more talent.

Kinda like Bibby and Webber?

 

[TheJoker]

I think people are ignoring the fact that the Lakers were a great team before the injuries happened now that there healthy there playing good basketball WITH Kobe going on a tear.

we just don't want to admit that the Lakers are a good team simpley because that will make us guilty since our team sucks.
​

 

[Freakout]

I will agree that it's not immediately Bryant's fault that the team is sub-par, but only in the same sense that I don't think it's immediately Kevin Garnett's fault that Minnesota is terrible.

Of course, in both cases, I think that it could be fairly argued that if they had been willing to take less money, management would be in a better position to surround them with more talent.

Maybe but then you look at other superstars making max money with better talent around them. Personally I blame McHale and Mitch moreso than Kobe and Kevin.

 

[Surgee88]

Im A Kings Fan

IM A KINGS FAN, BUT KOBE IS yeah anyways..... he might not win a championship BUT WOW.

GO KINGS AND DONT WIN ANYMORE THIS SEASON JUST THINKING DRAFT.

 

[kingsfan916]

Oh boy...

Kobe Bryant is a great player. You can try and discredit him all you like but the truth is right there in front of all of us.

exactly i mean no matter what he does he gets lots of crap from people his team just lost 7 straight and now he scores 50+ in 4 straight games which they win i hate to admit it but he is raw btw **** kobe and **** the lakers