Any moves before the trade deadline?

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#31
#31
No what you are doing is trading away one near All-Star, and one near ccancer, all in the same body, before he either blows up and destroys his trade value, or leaves you with nothing.

And in return you are getting, not three scrubs, but rather 1) one starting SF on last year's title team, who is more importantly an ending contract to let us pursue a major free agent at above the MLE; 2) a kid who just turned 21 a month ago who's averaged a respectable 9pts 7rebs 2ast 1stl 1blk in 29mpg this season as a starter, and then 3) one pick likely just out of the lottery in a very deep draft. Which might still nab you a Josh McRoberts this year, or which could be valubale in moving up a few spots in the draft to nab somebody we really want (not Oden or Durant presumably).

The concentration of talent theory is absolutely valid on the way up -- very few trades where you trade one stud for a bunch of middling vets for instance make you better. But on the way down the rules change. Now you are accumulating liquid assets, and want to get cap room and take as many flyers as you can on young talent that might blossom. And so you go take your cap room and sign Darko for instance, then you draft McRoberts and see if he really is a less athletic version of Chris Webber, then you take Wright and see if he is the next Gerald Wallace. And you get 3 guys in their early 20's who are going to be around for a long time and just migbht blossom into one or more special pieces. Then go after the centerpiece with the high draft pick (which may have gotten a little higher without Ron). And of course cross your fingers.
 
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Vlade4GM

Vlade4GM

All-Star
#32
#32
Bricklayer said:
No what you are doing is trading away one near All-Star, and one near ccancer, all in the same body, before he either blows up and destroys his trade value, or leaves you with nothing.

And in return you are getting, not three scrubs, but rather 1) one starting SF on last year's title team, who is more importantly an ending contract to let us pursue a major free agent at above the MLE; 2) a kid who just turned 21 a month ago who's averaged a respectable 9pts 7rebs 2ast 1stl 1blk in 29mpg this season, and then 3) one pick likely just out of the lottery in a very deep draft. Which might still nab you a Josh McRoberts this year, or which could be valubale in moving up a few spots in the draft to nab somebody we really want (not Oden or Durant presumably).

The concentration of talent theory is absolutely valid on the way up -- very few trades where you trade one stud for a bunch of middling vets for instance make you better. But on the way down the rules change. Now you are accumulating liquid assets, and want to get cap room and take as many flyers as you can on young talent that might blossom. And so you go take your cap room and sign Darko for instance, then you draft McRoberts and see if he really is a less athletic version of Chris Webber, then you take Wright and see if he is the next Gerald Wallace. And you get 3 guys in their early 20's who are going to be around for a long time and just migbht blossom into one or more special pieces. Then go after the centerpiece with the high draft pick (which may have gotten a little higher without Ron). And of course cross your fingers.
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why can't you be the kings gm? :)
 
C

cfechter

Bench
#33
#33
Bricklayer said:
No what you are doing is trading away one near All-Star, and one near ccancer, all in the same body, before he either blows up and destroys his trade value, or leaves you with nothing.

And in return you are getting, not three scrubs, but rather 1) one starting SF on last year's title team, who is more importantly an ending contract to let us pursue a major free agent at above the MLE; 2) a kid who just turned 21 a month ago who's averaged a respectable 9pts 7rebs 2ast 1stl 1blk in 29mpg this season as a starter, and then 3) one pick likely just out of the lottery in a very deep draft. Which might still nab you a Josh McRoberts this year, or which could be valubale in moving up a few spots in the draft to nab somebody we really want (not Oden or Durant presumably).

The concentration of talent theory is absolutely valid on the way up -- very few trades where you trade one stud for a bunch of middling vets for instance make you better. But on the way down the rules change. Now you are accumulating liquid assets, and want to get cap room and take as many flyers as you can on young talent that might blossom. And so you go take your cap room and sign Darko for instance, then you draft McRoberts and see if he really is a less athletic version of Chris Webber, then you take Wright and see if he is the next Gerald Wallace. And you get 3 guys in their early 20's who are going to be around for a long time and just migbht blossom into one or more special pieces. Then go after the centerpiece with the high draft pick (which may have gotten a little higher without Ron). And of course cross your fingers.
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You make some sense here, but I still disagree with trading a very solid (if unspectacular) starter for 1 scrub, and 2 "potentials". If neither potential does anything, you've set your team back a couple of years. Then better to have left Ron go and not taken salary at all (which you would with the low first rounder - albeit a low salary).

I still think that sometime in the next year, someone is going to get desperate enough to offer you a deal that makes more sense than garbage posey, rotation wright, and hopeful rotation #21.
 
Vlade4GM

Vlade4GM

All-Star
#34
#34
cfechter said:
You make some sense here, but I still disagree with trading a very solid (if unspectacular) starter for 1 scrub, and 2 "potentials". If neither potential does anything, you've set your team back a couple of years. Then better to have left Ron go and not taken salary at all (which you would with the low first rounder - albeit a low salary).

I still think that sometime in the next year, someone is going to get desperate enough to offer you a deal that makes more sense than garbage posey, rotation wright, and hopeful rotation #21.
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yea, we're taking on a ton of a salary with wright and a pick right? come on, you can do better than that. get real please, ron is not going to bring much in and this is just as good as anything else. what should we wait for? some overpriced veteran that supposedly is equal talent? i'd rather have wright and the pick, more potential less guarunteed money.
 
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C

cfechter

Bench
#35
#35
I don't entirely disagree with you - but again, I think you need to exercise more patience than just getting garbage back.

In my opinion, sometime between now and next Feb whenver (of 2008) sometime will give us equal value (which in my opinion would be a younger starter and a first rounder).
 
Z

ZanesvilleFan

G-League
#36
#36
I say keep Martin and Miller. Get a point guard who is a pass first shoot second kinda guy. Get you a good center (KG possibly) and move Brad to the 4 spot ( I mean he doesnt play around the basket to ever be a true center) and his passing abilities are what we need from a 4 man. You can also keep Williams. Get rid of Artest simply b/c he dribbles too much and is slower than moses and not to mention has the worst shot selection on the team with bibby coming in right behind him. Trade bibby just because. Maybe get a top 5 draft pick depending on how the 2nd part of teh season goes. And then last but not least fire Muss. He doesnt know how to rotate players in and out of games and he tries coaching the team on the court wayyyyy to much. He would be better off just letting them play and take a seat kinda like Phil Jackson. and then we might actually contend for something.

Just some thoughts though :)
 
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B

BMiller52

All-Star
#37
#37
ZanesvilleFan said:
I say keep Martin and Miller. Get a point guard who is a pass first shoot second kinda guy. Get you a good center (KG possibly) and move Brad to the 4 spot ( I mean he doesnt play around the basket to ever be a true center) and his passing abilities are what we need from a 4 man. You can also keep Williams. Get rid of Artest simply b/c he dribbles too much and is slower than moses and not to mention has the worst shot selection on the team with bibby coming in right behind him. Trade bibby just because. Maybe get a top 5 draft pick depending on how the 2nd part of teh season goes. And then last but not least fire Muss. He doesnt know how to rotate players in and out of games and he tries coaching the team on the court wayyyyy to much. He would be better off just letting them play and take a seat kinda like Phil Jackson. and then we might actually contend for something.

Just some thoughts though :)
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The problem with getting KG is that we don't have the guys who the timberwolves would want and he's not a center. I agree with most of the rest of what you said though, besides Ron I think he gets a lot of undeserved criticism. Ron's FG% actually has gotten better and he's still a good defender. He's been playing well this month. Still I wouldn't hesitate to deal him, don't see him wanting to be around on a rebuilding team.

I think we need a top 3-5 pick to get back on top. Don't need Durant or Oden, we'd be fine with Brandan Wright too(who I compare to Amare) or Horford(who I compare to a kind of poor man's Brand). Would still rather have Wright than Horford. Obviously Durant or Oden would be perfect though.

Agree that the team needs a pass first point guard but also one that can D up. Our big men suck at defense but Bibby makes their job harder because he gets burned so much. So not only go our big men have to worry about their man they need to worry about Mike's too. His shot selection has also killed us at times this season.

Martin is a keeper, I think Salmons is a keeper, not sure where we'd get our new PG, and we'd need another SF if Ron goes(I like Dorrel Wright for the job, or we could sign Gerald Wallace if we can get the cap room). I assume(and hope because it's logical) that we'll draft a PF that blocks shots and is athletic. Unathletic PFs and a lack of a shotblocker has been our problem for about 3 years now.
 
Packt

Packt

Starter
#38
#38
I'd rather we continue to stink it up, and wait till the off-season to make any moves; Bibby included. Even with his option looming, the risk is minimal with the year he's having and the teams with capspace. At worst, we end up extending him. I would be open to moving our expirings and/or Kenny if we can, for better talent/contract. Barring a major star coming our way, keeping the status quo for now is the best option, imo.

I'm not a fan of trying to create capspace for this summer. I don't feel even with money to spend we'd be much of a player on the market, and even then this year's crop isn't anything special.

My hope is that this team will secure a good draft pick as it is. That will give us the option of drafting a prospect or trading the pick with other contracts for a stud or to move up in the draft. I don't think moving anybody now will secure a better pick.
 
Circa_1985_Fan

Circa_1985_Fan

All-Star
#39
#39
Trade anyone but Ron and Kevin. I dont know what the hell Petrie could work out for the rest of our guys, but he's got alot of redemption to try and accomplish, because the last few years have turned up nothing, with the exception of Ron, of course, which was a no-brainer IMO, so I'll only give him a little credit for that one. Our threshold for bonehead transactions has reached its peak, obviously...and if the Maloofs are continuing to strive to be a Championship contender anytime soon, then the re-building has to start now, and not next year.
 
Z

ZanesvilleFan

G-League
#40
#40
Circa_1985_Fan said:
Trade anyone but Ron and Kevin. I dont know what the hell Petrie could work out for the rest of our guys, but he's got alot of redemption to try and accomplish, because the last few years have turned up nothing, with the exception of Ron, of course, which was a no-brainer IMO, so I'll only give him a little credit for that one. Our threshold for bonehead transactions has reached its peak, obviously...and if the Maloofs are continuing to strive to be a Championship contender anytime soon, then the re-building has to start now, and not next year.
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I would say that we need to definantly get rid of Ron. If you would go keeping him then he is going to be thinking that he should be the first option on offense which should never be the case. Then when they put Kevin as the first option he might blow up and cause trouble within the organization. There would go your trade bait because he has been good so far this year. I say get rid of him as early as possible. You can get a good defender in the draft. I am really liking Josh Smith of the Hawks playing at the 3 possibly. But I still say keep Martin, Miller, get a pass first PG, and a center.
 
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Roman

Roman

Bench
#42
#42
There isn't one player on this team above moving.

I keep reading don't trade this guy or that guy. I'd move every player on this roster - including Martin - should the right deals exist.

Martin is a good player, but he's not anyone I'd build around, which means, to me, he's completely expendible for the future of the team. He's a terrible, and I mean, terrible defender ... and that about sums up why he'd be on the list of tradeables. I mean, I wouldn't move Martin for Posey or some nonsense, but the right situation, the right draft pick, yeah ... he'd be moved.
 
Z

ZanesvilleFan

G-League
#43
#43
Roman said:
There isn't one player on this team above moving.

I keep reading don't trade this guy or that guy. I'd move every player on this roster - including Martin - should the right deals exist.

Martin is a good player, but he's not anyone I'd build around, which means, to me, he's completely expendible for the future of the team. He's a terrible, and I mean, terrible defender ... and that about sums up why he'd be on the list of tradeables. I mean, I wouldn't move Martin for Posey or some nonsense, but the right situation, the right draft pick, yeah ... he'd be moved.
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Yeah I would trade your BEST offensive player too. That dont take bad shots and is very unselfish. Just think IF the offense was centered around Martin (Scary I know). I Would love to know who you would actually take for a straight up trade here (being a 2 guard). You can even go into the NCAA and pick.

Just curious
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#44
#44
We're talking about the deepest position in the NBA here. Martin is a great kid and an even greater story for the Kings but he's not the type of player that can individually take over the game the way the best 2 guards in the league can. I don't expect him to ever reach that level. But he will make a very nice complimentary player to a team that already has a number one option.

There's no reason to move him right now but there's no reason to consider him untouchable either.
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#45
#45
pdxKingsFan said:
We're talking about the deepest position in the NBA here. Martin is a great kid and an even greater story for the Kings but he's not the type of player that can individually take over the game the way the best 2 guards in the league can. I don't expect him to ever reach that level. But he will make a very nice complimentary player to a team that already has a number one option.

There's no reason to move him right now but there's no reason to consider him untouchable either. I think that's all Roman was trying to say.
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I think we'd all be better off sometimes if we didn't try to translate for other people. ;)

I think both sides of this argument have merit. For some (like me and ZanesvilleFan), the idea of building a team around some vital draft picks AND someone like Martin is intriguing. And, from what has been said around Arco, etc. the front office seems very fond of Martin and thinks he has a bright future. You don't have to totally gut a team to rebuild. I would definitely keep someone like Martin unless the offer was simply WAY too good to refuse.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#46
#46
I wouldn't trade Martin(well not for most players). Only guys in this draft I'd trade him for would be Oden or Durant. Kevin is a keeper IMO, only his 3rd year in the league(his 1st getting significant PT) and he's an efficient 20 PPG scorer. He's been pretty clutch for us too, 3 game winners(vs SA, vs Chicago, and vs MN). He's our best shooter and our best slasher, he's our most athletic player. I know he's not really a good defender yet but he's still young and he shows flashes of being a good defender. Without Kevin this year our record would be the worst in the league. The idea of rebuilding and keeping Kevin as one of the guys you build around definitely appeals to me.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#47
#47
VF21 said:
I think we'd all be better off sometimes if we didn't try to translate for other people. ;)

I think both sides of this argument have merit. For some (like me and ZanesvilleFan), the idea of building a team around some vital draft picks AND someone like Martin is intriguing. And, from what has been said around Arco, etc. the front office seems very fond of Martin and thinks he has a bright future. You don't have to totally gut a team to rebuild. I would definitely keep someone like Martin unless the offer was simply WAY too good to refuse.
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I removed the offending sentence since I think my point stands on its own.

I've never pushed for moving Martin, I like him and think he still has tremendous upside, but it some team wanted to make us an offer I'd listen. That's all.

And not to be a smart aleck but aren't you basically doing the same thing you just called me out for in your second paragraph?
 
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F

fnordius

All-Star
#48
#48
While I do agree that trade offers should always be listened to, here's why I think Kevin shouldn't be traded in any forseeable circumstances, and won't be.

This is dollars paid / (efficiency rating (per 40 minutes) * minutes played). Or, to make it plainer, how many dollars per minute, per efficiency rating we pay a guy. The higher the number, the less we are getting for our money.

Jason Hart: 1101
K. Thomas: 887
B. Miller: 747
Q. Douby: 613
Corliss: 601
Bibby: 492
SAR: 364
Salmons: 297
Artest: 280
Ronnie: 240
Cisco: 215
KMart: 31

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Justin has the third highest PER on the team, behind KMart and Artest, but hasn't played enough yet to warrant including.
 
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treewoman

treewoman

Bench
#49
#49
fnordius said:
While I do agree that trade offers should always be listened to, here's why I think Kevin shouldn't be traded in any forseeable circumstances, and won't be.

This is dollars paid / (efficiency rating (per 40 minutes) * minutes played). Or, to make it plainer, how many dollars per minute, per efficiency rating we pay a guy. The higher the number, the less we are getting for our money.

Jason Hart: 1101
K. Thomas: 887
B. Miller: 747
Q. Douby: 613
Corliss: 601
Bibby: 492
SAR: 364
Salmons: 297
Artest: 280
Ronnie: 240
Cisco: 215
KMart: 31

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Justin has the third highest PER on the team, behind KMart and Artest, but hasn't played enough yet to warrant including.
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:D That is really interesting info. I wouldn't mind the top four sent off in a package for a trade (Hart, Thomas, Miller & Douby).
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#50
#50
pdxKingsFan said:
I removed the offending sentence since I think my point stands on its own.

I've never pushed for moving Martin, I like him and think he still has tremendous upside, but it some team wanted to make us an offer I'd listen. That's all.

And not to be a smart aleck but aren't you basically doing the same thing you just called me out for in your second paragraph?
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Nope. I specifically included myself in the comment. ;)

And I agree. Your point not only stands on its own, it actually has more credibility.

:p
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#51
#51
fnordius said:
While I do agree that trade offers should always be listened to, here's why I think Kevin shouldn't be traded in any forseeable circumstances, and won't be.

This is dollars paid / (efficiency rating (per 40 minutes) * minutes played). Or, to make it plainer, how many dollars per minute, per efficiency rating we pay a guy. The higher the number, the less we are getting for our money.

Jason Hart: 1101
K. Thomas: 887
B. Miller: 747
Q. Douby: 613
Corliss: 601
Bibby: 492
SAR: 364
Salmons: 297
Artest: 280
Ronnie: 240
Cisco: 215
KMart: 31

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Justin has the third highest PER on the team, behind KMart and Artest, but hasn't played enough yet to warrant including.
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Very interesting stat. May I ask where you found it?
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#60
#60
fnordius said:
While I do agree that trade offers should always be listened to, here's why I think Kevin shouldn't be traded in any forseeable circumstances, and won't be.

This is dollars paid / (efficiency rating (per 40 minutes) * minutes played). Or, to make it plainer, how many dollars per minute, per efficiency rating we pay a guy. The higher the number, the less we are getting for our money.

Jason Hart: 1101
K. Thomas: 887
B. Miller: 747
Q. Douby: 613
Corliss: 601
Bibby: 492
SAR: 364
Salmons: 297
Artest: 280
Ronnie: 240
Cisco: 215
KMart: 31

---
Justin has the third highest PER on the team, behind KMart and Artest, but hasn't played enough yet to warrant including.
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This stat is heavily biased towards the fact that Kevin is still playing on his rookie contract because once that's over he will want to get paid and undoubtably move up on this list. Its also one of the reasons the Kings might actually consider trading Kevin - to facilitate moving Miller or Thomas. In the right deal it would allow them to rebuild faster than hanging onto him at all costs.
 
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