Voisin: Up to Petrie to tidy up the mess of a team
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This is the common misconception. Players tanking = bad. But what you want to see happen is basically the FRONT OFFICE tanking. Make moves not designed to win over the next 3 months, but designed to win next year, the year after, the year after that. Let whoever is left fight as hard as they can, and come up short because the team isn't designed to win right now. Then get to the summer with a juicy draft pick, hopefully more material, picks, cap space from moves made at the trading deadline, and then let Geoff try his hand at another summer of '98 full scale rebuild. In that scenario, Kevin might be the only guaranteed returnee. Give him a big stud kid as a running mate, maybe a second pick picked up via trade, with some kids, a free agent or two. No title next year, but maybe the corner is turned and there is a future.
Thank you! You have finally made a post that clearly and concisely explains the difference.
If they do that, it's obvious to everyone what's going on and while ticket sales might still take a hit (and finally euthanize the "sellout streak" myth), people wouldn't leave in disgust.
I think we're pretty close to the crossroads right now. Whatever they choose to do, I think they have to start taking steps in that direction clearly enough for the season-ticket holders to comprehend before tickets come up for renewal (in March?)...
If they do that, it's obvious to everyone what's going on and while ticket sales might still take a hit (and finally euthanize the "sellout streak" myth), people wouldn't leave in disgust.
I think we're pretty close to the crossroads right now. Whatever they choose to do, I think they have to start taking steps in that direction clearly enough for the season-ticket holders to comprehend before tickets come up for renewal (in March?)...
Brick I think this team right now has hit rock bottom. I am sure they can climb up but, never climb out. I honestly believe this is the lowest point we can go with this team.
This may not belong here and I have seen ppl ask about it over the past few weeks. But seriously what the hell happened to Ronnie Price he was a spark and all of sudden he is but a vapor.
This may not belong here and I have seen ppl ask about it over the past few weeks. But seriously what the hell happened to Ronnie Price he was a spark and all of sudden he is but a vapor.
We are 14-18. Not low enough. Right now we get he 12th pick. Not high enough. If that's the way we are going, we have to get serious and start over.
BMiller -- Chauncey isn't going to sign for a rebuilding project anyway. A nice small move might be bringing back Corliss on the cheap though. Good locker room guy, continuity to our good years, won a title, etc.
Thats what I am saying this current team. Is not going to be dead last or even top 5 worst at the end of the season. they will get their foot out of theirs asses and end up with like an 11th or 12th pick. So if we want to do better at being worse we have to send one of the high dollar boys packing for some expirings and/or kids or better yet more picks.
Well the big stud draft pick would be one. Let's just say adding Mo Williams and Varejao (or even Darko) or some such is another if we cleared the cap room. If you can get that second draft pick that would be another. In an ideal world that's a lot of young talent to be imported in support of Kevin and whatever guys are leftover -- maybe a kid or two via those trades as well. And a full summer/camp to get it all organized.
There is no title here this year.
No title next year.
But if everything goes right, maybe we could emerge as an Orlando type team by the year after that. Proven young talent, something where free agents might be willing to come again.
As an aside, of all the vets with long deals, Brad might be the guy who would make the most sense to keep/retain in a rebuilding plan as a smart support player willing to stick it out and help maybe. But he's aging, has a bad contract, and Muss doesn't know how to use him.
So let's say you kept Brad, resiged Corliss, kept Salmons to fill some gaps. kept Kevin. Added the free agents mentioned. Traded Artest for Posey (ending) and Dorell Wright. Traded Bibby for a pick + ender. Dumped KT and SAR for maybe enders and a marginal talent or two.
C- Brad
PF- #1 pick (ours)
SF- Wright
OG- Martin
PG- Mo Williams
6th - Salmons
7th - Varejao
#1 pick (traded for)
Corliss
+ whatever else came from the Bibby/Reef/KT trades
+ Price or Douby or Cisco or Justin Williams, or whoever
That's a respectable young lineup. Won't win. But there's all kinds of upside if that big PF/C kid pans out. More if the Bibby deal is to a lace like Boston and brings back ayoung kid, or the SAR deal is to Chicago and brings back one etc. It would never happen exactly like that, but that general approach can yield coherent young squads with a future wihtout wasting money on old vets who aren't going to want to lose anyway. Might even miss the playoffs next year, but another lottery pocik would not hurt. Have a good summer, add a supporting piece or mkae an extra trade. Be ready to start scaring people again by 08.
There is no title here this year.
No title next year.
But if everything goes right, maybe we could emerge as an Orlando type team by the year after that. Proven young talent, something where free agents might be willing to come again.
As an aside, of all the vets with long deals, Brad might be the guy who would make the most sense to keep/retain in a rebuilding plan as a smart support player willing to stick it out and help maybe. But he's aging, has a bad contract, and Muss doesn't know how to use him.
So let's say you kept Brad, resiged Corliss, kept Salmons to fill some gaps. kept Kevin. Added the free agents mentioned. Traded Artest for Posey (ending) and Dorell Wright. Traded Bibby for a pick + ender. Dumped KT and SAR for maybe enders and a marginal talent or two.
C- Brad
PF- #1 pick (ours)
SF- Wright
OG- Martin
PG- Mo Williams
6th - Salmons
7th - Varejao
#1 pick (traded for)
Corliss
+ whatever else came from the Bibby/Reef/KT trades
+ Price or Douby or Cisco or Justin Williams, or whoever
That's a respectable young lineup. Won't win. But there's all kinds of upside if that big PF/C kid pans out. More if the Bibby deal is to a lace like Boston and brings back ayoung kid, or the SAR deal is to Chicago and brings back one etc. It would never happen exactly like that, but that general approach can yield coherent young squads with a future wihtout wasting money on old vets who aren't going to want to lose anyway. Might even miss the playoffs next year, but another lottery pocik would not hurt. Have a good summer, add a supporting piece or mkae an extra trade. Be ready to start scaring people again by 08.
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Actually I think Kevin's extension(when he hopefully gets one) will kick in next offseason, so we only have this one to use any cap room we get to sign people. And Varejao doesn't excite me either. Mo Williams is a younger, worse, and faster version of Mike Bibby. Scoring/shooting PG that's bad on defense.
Edit: guess you edited your post while I was making mine...
Edit: guess you edited your post while I was making mine...
We have the MLE every year.
As far as not being excited about x or y, of course not. They are young, and if they were megastauds you couldn't get them. You are counting on the big draft pick being your stud. Kevin being a capable #2, or at worst #3. Then you are filling in the gaps. Varejao is your young 4/5 off the bench bwhind the stud and Brad (for the time being). Mo is a starting caliber young PG. Details of his game are irrelevant at the moment. We won't even know how the team will come together until its actually on court. Maybe we'll need a scoring PG. Given the caliber of this draft, just for argument's sake replace ""1 draft pick" at our PF spot with "Dwight Howard" see what the lineup looks like then.
Now go out and try to win 35 or so. Get the 10th pick or some such. Add in another young guy. Percolate. Trade any peices not fitting. But knwo always that everybody exists to compliment the big kid.
As far as not being excited about x or y, of course not. They are young, and if they were megastauds you couldn't get them. You are counting on the big draft pick being your stud. Kevin being a capable #2, or at worst #3. Then you are filling in the gaps. Varejao is your young 4/5 off the bench bwhind the stud and Brad (for the time being). Mo is a starting caliber young PG. Details of his game are irrelevant at the moment. We won't even know how the team will come together until its actually on court. Maybe we'll need a scoring PG. Given the caliber of this draft, just for argument's sake replace ""1 draft pick" at our PF spot with "Dwight Howard" see what the lineup looks like then.
Now go out and try to win 35 or so. Get the 10th pick or some such. Add in another young guy. Percolate. Trade any peices not fitting. But knwo always that everybody exists to compliment the big kid.
Ehh after reading that plan I still like the idea of signing Billups. Will be 31 next year, but he has been pretty much an iron man his whole career. He's a 18/8 player with great D. I don't really see his shooting/passing declining. Look at Nash, he may win a 3rd MVP and he's 33 already. AI is 31 or 32, hasn't declined yet. Honestly I think Douby can end up a pretty good PG, so if he does there wouldn't really be a drop off when Billups got old.
I honestly would like to re-sign Posey to a deal that's not so big if we end up getting him in a trade. We need a role player who can hit a 3 and defend well off the bench. He and Haslem pretty much shut Dirk down in the Finals.
Like the idea of drafting the young guy or 2, like the idea of getting Dorrel Wright, like the idea of keeping Corliss around, and hopefully Justin Williams ends up being good(honestly don't see why he can't end up being a Varejao type player himself, maybe even better). I honestly think that Billups/Martin/Wright/Durant(or another drafted player)/Miller with a decent bench could be a decent team next year. Not championship yet, but on the right path.
I honestly would like to re-sign Posey to a deal that's not so big if we end up getting him in a trade. We need a role player who can hit a 3 and defend well off the bench. He and Haslem pretty much shut Dirk down in the Finals.
Like the idea of drafting the young guy or 2, like the idea of getting Dorrel Wright, like the idea of keeping Corliss around, and hopefully Justin Williams ends up being good(honestly don't see why he can't end up being a Varejao type player himself, maybe even better). I honestly think that Billups/Martin/Wright/Durant(or another drafted player)/Miller with a decent bench could be a decent team next year. Not championship yet, but on the right path.
I think your probelm is that you still aren't accepting the rebuilding premise. Its not about signing vets. Not about winning. In fact losing is healthy. You don't want to win more than minimally necessary until the kids are ready to mature, then you try to bring in a vet or two to support them and burst onto the scene. But not in the early years. Certainly not next year for us. And you defintiely do NOT want any part of a guy like Posey eating up cap and minutes that you could be using on young guys. Nor really Billups -- he'll be used up before we matter. And like I say, would not come here anyway. Unless maybe we offered him some atrocious max contract or some such, which would obviously be a bad idea. Just as during our contending years all we were concerend wiuth was who was better rihgt now, in a rebuilding project all you care about is who is going to good/better in 3-5 years.
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The reason you don't get Billiups is the fact that you want this team to grow together to be something 2 or 3 years down the road. You already (given the scenerio) have to replace Miller in that time and with Billiups that will be anther you have to replace. So you go young at all positions with the exception of 2 or 3 year vets such as Martin, Wright, and Williams. You don't want to have to replace 2 starters in the middle of the growth as it will hinder the growth process.
I would agree that Billups is certainly won't be useless for awhile, but he wouldn't exactly be stepping into the same situation as Nash stepped into in PHX (which was with a team that only one year prior to signing him had pushed the Spurs in the playoffs and had two very good players in Amare and Marion on the roster). I don't want to sell Kevin short, but I'm not ready to put him in the category of either Amare or Marion just yet.
But, if Geoff is able to trade Artest for decent size with unrealized potential, that may change the equation somewhat.
But, if Geoff is able to trade Artest for decent size with unrealized potential, that may change the equation somewhat.
And that's exactly the mindset you have to go away from if you're going to embrace the idea of REBUILDING. It will take as long as it takes. Shortcuts kill you.
Read Brick's posts again. I think he does an excellent job of explaining why you do NOT want to acquire any veterans like Billups when you're trying to rebuild your team.
Read Brick's posts again. I think he does an excellent job of explaining why you do NOT want to acquire any veterans like Billups when you're trying to rebuild your team.
You've got it backwards; the Suns didn't sign Nash and then put the right players around him; they acquired great young talent and THEN signed Nash. You've got to have the talent first. The Suns are good because Nash compliments the players they already had, not because they compliment him. And that's why signing Billups would be a mistake; we don't have the players for Billups to compliment, and nobody should be trying to build a team around Billups, anyway.
And Miami... well, that comparison isn't even in the ballpark. Miami drafted an amazing superstar perimeter player, and complimented him with the most dominant big man of his era. And then their Coach/GM surrounded them with veterans and built the team to win immediately. Riley bet the wad on Ace/King suited, and the lucky ****er flopped a Royal Flush. But, you can get away with that when you've got two all-world players... You know anybody on the Kings good enough to justify making those kinds of moves?
And Miami... well, that comparison isn't even in the ballpark. Miami drafted an amazing superstar perimeter player, and complimented him with the most dominant big man of his era. And then their Coach/GM surrounded them with veterans and built the team to win immediately. Riley bet the wad on Ace/King suited, and the lucky ****er flopped a Royal Flush. But, you can get away with that when you've got two all-world players... You know anybody on the Kings good enough to justify making those kinds of moves?
