Why Thomas should be the starter instead of Abdur-Rahim

[Pqster]

Watching the game last night it looks to me that KT is not even looking for a shot. I'm thinking that is the direction Muss Man has given him. I've seen KT in some serious slumps throughout the years and has never stopped him from trying different ways to score either driving or finding that little 15 footer. As close as I can tell this is the main reason he won the starting job. SAR has never seen a shot he doesn't like. If this theory has some truth to it it might be the true definition of "team player" Being a KT fan I have even been a little baffled on how he continues to get big minutes. I believe it is because he is doing EXACTLY what Muss wants him to do. did a lot of little things that don't show up in the box score keeping balls alive, positioning so others are free to come in from the backside and rebound. Just some thought I am interested in your take on?

 

[Londonking]

okay, Pqster, as you're inviting comment i will throw in my two cents....(this is from someone who cant see Kings games - only listens and reads....)

I didnt follow what KT was doing at the Sixers before he become a King, but since he's been in our team he has underwhelmed me. In short I dont think he has the ability to do an effective job at PF.

Origianally I thought the PF role was to score heavy, but Bricklayer sorted me out on that one a couple of seasons ago. An effective PF is distruptive to the opposition. If he's scoring then that fine, but if he isnt then he needs to be finding ways to help his teammates score.

You mention that you see KT doing things which dont show up in the box score - Im sure you are correct - but it doesnt seem to me that those things are enough.

Our PF doesnt need to be a superstar. It would be fine with me if we had an adequate role player PF. But the key attributes i think we need to see there are physical strength and skills. If a player is a little lacking in one then at NBA level he has to be able to compensate with the other. My concern is that i think KT is deficient in both.

Reading Bricks grades and the game notes from our opening games I am more concerned about the prospects for this unit than any Kings team since the time i started following them (2002/3).

I know Miller has his critics, but I've always thought he could hit the mid range jumper and that his potential offensive contibution made up for defensive weaknesses. Okay, he wasnt going to dish the assists like Vlade or swat the boards like Big Ben - but he could do a decent job for us at Centre. With Miller possible out or at least hampered with injury I do worry about how we fill that position.

Kevin Martin, Bibby and Artest are our three best (and credible) players in their postions. I count SAR as a guy who can give you decent minutes off the bench at PF (but not 'starter' quality). Salmons may turn out to be a useful utility player backing up Mike and filling in a bit at Centre. But it looks to me as though we are a couple of quality players short of where we need to be.

Hopefully I will be proved wrong, and the team will pull together but i cant say im ecouraged by the first three games. Maybe when we've played at home it will be better.

Go Kings!!

 

[The Crew]

Kt has never been a big scorer. That is not his job on this team.
With Ron, Mike and Kmart there are only so many balls to go around. Not everyone on a team can be a superstar.

Oh exect for the fantasy team that some believe should be put together here.

The little things need to be done day in and day out. I know that is why kt is in the starting lineup. Sar is not that player. He cannot make those hustle plays any longer with those knees

Kt is a team player and a very well liked one at that for the simple fact he does the team things on the court......

 

[ezekielbear]

Kt is a team player

He pretty much said "trade me" if I don't start.

 

[kupman]

Watching the game last night it looks to me that KT is not even looking for a shot. I'm thinking that is the direction Muss Man has given him. I've seen KT in some serious slumps throughout the years and has never stopped him from trying different ways to score either driving or finding that little 15 footer. As close as I can tell this is the main reason he won the starting job. SAR has never seen a shot he doesn't like. If this theory has some truth to it it might be the true definition of "team player" Being a KT fan I have even been a little baffled on how he continues to get big minutes. I believe it is because he is doing EXACTLY what Muss wants him to do. did a lot of little things that don't show up in the box score keeping balls alive, positioning so others are free to come in from the backside and rebound. Just some thought I am interested in your take on?

I am with you on this. K9 does not need to score or look for shots IMHO. Rebounds, loose balls and keeping the ball alive is what I hope he offers this team. Think a poor man's Rodman....well maybe a very poorman's Rodman. He had 4 OREB last night, lead the team in REB's and I believe had double digit REBs against MN. This guy does keep the ball alive quite a bit as well which never shows-up in a box score. He has potential in these areas because he is quick to the ball.

Hoefully he will be able to build upon this role.

 

[nbrans]

You guys picked the wrong time and the wrong argument to make this case. KT should be the starter because he doesn't look to score? Have you seen how horrible the offense has looked this season? This isn't a team that fights over shots because its offensive players are so good and thus needs a nonscorer in the starting lineup. This also isn't a team that is lacking defense and rebounding. Past Kings teams perhaps were like that, but right now this team needs scoring. The best offensive stretches have come when Abdur-Rahim has been on the floor.

KT has not significantly outrebounded Abdur-Rahim, which is what he needs to do in order to justify the loss of offense when he is on the floor. If you want to make the case that KT brings intangibles... then he needs to bring them. I haven't seen it in the first three games.

About the only good reasons why Abdur-Rahim ISN'T starting have nothing to do with Kenny and everything to do with SAR. SAR gives the Kings SOMETHING off the bench, and he just goes to work chewing up the opposing second unit. Otherwise there's really no reason why KT is getting the starting job and more minutes, because the gulf between how well KT and SAR have played in the preseason and in the first three games is significant.

 

[VF21]

okay, Pqster, as you're inviting comment i will throw in my two cents....(this is from someone who cant see Kings games - only listens and reads....)

I didnt follow what KT was doing at the Sixers before he become a King, but since he's been in our team he has underwhelmed me. In short I dont think he has the ability to do an effective job at PF.

Origianally I thought the PF role was to score heavy, but Bricklayer sorted me out on that one a couple of seasons ago. An effective PF is distruptive to the opposition. If he's scoring then that fine, but if he isnt then he needs to be finding ways to help his teammates score.

You mention that you see KT doing things which dont show up in the box score - Im sure you are correct - but it doesnt seem to me that those things are enough.

Our PF doesnt need to be a superstar. It would be fine with me if we had an adequate role player PF. But the key attributes i think we need to see there are physical strength and skills. If a player is a little lacking in one then at NBA level he has to be able to compensate with the other. My concern is that i think KT is deficient in both.

Reading Bricks grades and the game notes from our opening games I am more concerned about the prospects for this unit than any Kings team since the time i started following them (2002/3).

I know Miller has his critics, but I've always thought he could hit the mid range jumper and that his potential offensive contibution made up for defensive weaknesses. Okay, he wasnt going to dish the assists like Vlade or swat the boards like Big Ben - but he could do a decent job for us at Centre. With Miller possible out or at least hampered with injury I do worry about how we fill that position.

Kevin Martin, Bibby and Artest are our three best (and credible) players in their postions. I count SAR as a guy who can give you decent minutes off the bench at PF (but not 'starter' quality). Salmons may turn out to be a useful utility player backing up Mike and filling in a bit at Centre. But it looks to me as though we are a couple of quality players short of where we need to be.

Hopefully I will be proved wrong, and the team will pull together but i cant say im ecouraged by the first three games. Maybe when we've played at home it will be better.

Go Kings!!

Very nice assessment, LK! (You really need to post more often...)

 

[Pqster]

This is not he original title of this thread originally I was looking for Brick's insite to why KT is not looking to shoot and trying to make sense of KT's play. Do not want to start a KT vs SAR debate again that been done to death!

 

[CruzDude]

....... so Coach can keep him from temper tantrums when he doesn't start?

...... because he does better down low and scores on put-backs better?

Don't think so. In the first 3 games KT is constantly overpowered and outjumped by 2-3 on the other team, whether starters or bench players. He has missed virtually all his put-back attempts and layups so far. At 6-8 he is out jumped down low most of the time. His body language is of complete disinterest. Sure he got 10 REBs vs. the Bulls but 5 or 6 of those came to him, not the other way 'round.

Should he be starting? No. Should SAR? Maybe. I'd like to see Artest at the 4 and Salmons at the 3 with Cisco, K9, Croliss or Douby off the bench depending on matchups. Douby might be the best 3 pt shooter on the team. A rookie yes but everyone else is missing their 3's.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

This is not he original title of this thread...

I'm perfectly aware of what your original title was... And why you titled it thusly isn't particularly important. We do not single out posters here; that's why it was changed.

And it's not subject to discussion. Further attempts to discuss moderation practices publicly will be deleted without prejudice.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't want EITHER guy as our starter, let alone BOTH starting together if Brad is out. That said my argument for KT starting hasn't changed: a) we need the rebounding; and b) its better for the other starters. Reef starting is very similar to the same dynamic we had to start last year with too many guys who needed the ball. Reef doesn't get his shots and meanwhile he steals some from Kevin, Mike, Ron, Brad, so they don't get their shots either. Meanwhile he does none of the little things. So you bring Reef off the bench and it eases the shot crunch foir the starters while actually giving a scorer to what otherwise would be among the most punchless benches in the NBA.

But that is all contingent on Kenny actually rebounding and hustling to some effect. He quite obviously cannot be giving you 3pts and 3rebs or its just pointless. Then you are playing 4 on 5.

In any case Kenny is not the roleplayer we need because he is too small and cannot defend the interior. Meanwhile the evidence mounts that SAR is no longer a star quality player and may have a 6th man's type game at this point. Neither is a good starter for a team with ambitions (if we indeed still have those). But one may help the other starters be better (KT), and one has shown he can be an effective 6th man (Reef). That suggests you stay the course, grin, and bear it.

 

[nbrans]

I don't want EITHER guy as our starter, let alone BOTH starting together if Brad is out. That said my argument for KT starting hasn't changed: a) we need the rebounding; and b) its better for the other starters. Reef starting is very similar to the same dynamic we had to start last year with too many guys who needed the ball. Reef doesn't get his shots and meanwhile he steals some from Kevin, Mike, Ron, Brad, so they don't get their shots either. Meanwhile he does none of the little things. So you bring Reef off the bench and it eases the shot crunch foir the starters while actually giving a scorer to what otherwise would be among the most punchless benches in the NBA.

But that is all contingent on Kenny actually rebounding and hustling to some effect. He quite obviously cannot be giving you 3pts and 3rebs or its just pointless. Then you are playing 4 on 5.

In any case Kenny is not the roleplayer we need because he is too small and cannot defend the interior. Meanwhile the evidence mounts that SAR is no longer a star quality player and may have a 6th man's type game at this point. Neither is a good starter for a team with ambitions (if we indeed still have those). But one may help the other starters be better (KT), and one has shown he can be an effective 6th man (Reef). That suggests you stay the course, grin, and bear it.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with the theory that you have to have a nonshooter in the starting lineup to open up shots for the other players. Good offensive teams, like the current Suns and the former Kings, had scorers up and down the lineup; their offense did not suffer because they lacked shots. In the olden days for the Kings there were guys like Christie (and Bibby) who would take a back seat in the offense to the primary options and could turn on the scoring when it was needed. But it wasn't like those teams didn't have enough shots to go around and needed someone like Kenny in the lineup. I really don't think Kenny makes the offense better by not taking shots away from other players.

The best non-scorers to have from an offensive perspective are the ones who create shots for other players, which is why the offense would work better if Artest and Miller were the ones who looked to create first and score second -- Bibby could go either way depending if he had the hot hand. But Kenny is not helping anything by being such a non-entity on offense, particularly when guys like Artest are struggling. It's just 4 on 5 on offense right now, and that doesn't help anyone.

The point about having a rebounder in the starting lineup is well taken, but so far rebounding has not been a problem, with or without KT. So basically it comes down to whether you want the best lineup possible against opposing starters (which I think SAR in the starting lineup represents) or whether you want to save some punch for the bench. It's probably too early to make that call, but I think you have to start and finish with the best possible group, and right now at least that group includes SAR.

 

[Roman]

SAR has never seen a shot he doesn't like.

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

SAR averaged above 16 shots once in his career (and scored 23 on them). He's was normally taking 15 shots a game when he was a starter.

He was taking 11 as a starter here last year and was scoring 16. If you want to complain about that ... then you've already lost your argument.

His efficiency has been at the tops of the league every freaking year. He converts shots to points.

 

[BMiller52]

Why a 6'11'' guy should start over them both: The 6'11'' guy can block shots and play defense.

 

[Roman]

Why a 6'11'' guy should start over them both: The 6'11'' guy can block shots and play defense.

Ummm... Brad Miller is like 7' and can't do either.

 

[VF21]

We aren't talking about Brad Miller, though, are we?

 

[jaysoonii]

Ummm... Brad Miller is like 7' and can't do either.

yea.. he cant play defense.. like did you see all those dunks bogut had in the 2nd half when brad wasn't playing? horrible defense brad miller..

 

[BMiller52]

I wasn't talking about Miller, but it's funny how at the first mention of a 6'11'' guy it becomes an attack on Miller

 

[VF21]

You know, sometimes the best way to deal with people who are intentionally trying to yank your chain is just to ignore them...

 

[kupman]

Why do people really care that much who starts at the 4 anyway? It really was not the point of the original post. Whether K9 starts or not he offers skills that can be very valuable to the Kings. Whether he starts or not he is going to see minutes with this team.

I support Muss and his coaching staff on their decisions.

 

[Roman]

I wasn't talking about Miller, but it's funny how at the first mention of a 6'11'' guy it becomes an attack on Miller

Nah, I wasn't attacking Miller. But, you said a 6'11" player can do these things. I was saying that this isn't always true.

I mean I could have mentioned that Korean dude that Portland drafted last year or Loren Woods or Vitaly ... but I happened upon Miller first. Sorry.

 

[VF21]

Why do people really care that much who starts at the 4 anyway? It really was not the point of the original post. Whether K9 starts or not he offers skills that can be very valuable to the Kings. Whether he starts or not he is going to see minutes with this team.

I support Muss and his coaching staff on their decisions.

Hey, that's well and good. But if everyone always agrees with Musselman and the coaching staff this place is gonna get pretty boring.

The reason sports message boards exist is to second-guess every single decision that's made on and off the court that concerns your favorite team.

 

[GeorgeofSacramento]

Just my 2 cents:
Seems to me that a player has to be a monster on the boards or a defensive STOPPER to play as a non-scorer. Dennis Rodman's name came up earlier and we all remember Doug Christie in his prime.

The big problem with a player like that on the floor is that it allows the other team to doubleup on your known scorers, since your guy isn't a threat. It turns your game into a 4-on-5 offensive scheme.

 

[Roman]

The big problem with a player like that on the floor is that it allows the other team to doubleup on your known scorers, since your guy isn't a threat. It turns your game into a 4-on-5 offensive scheme.

There isn't a player on our roster I wouldn't trade to get Rodman in his prime.

A better defender than Artest. A smarter player than Artest. A better rebounder than everyone. And just a bit loonier than Artest too.

 

[Pqster]

I don't want EITHER guy as our starter, let alone BOTH starting together if Brad is out. That said my argument for KT starting hasn't changed: a) we need the rebounding; and b) its better for the other starters. Reef starting is very similar to the same dynamic we had to start last year with too many guys who needed the ball. Reef doesn't get his shots and meanwhile he steals some from Kevin, Mike, Ron, Brad, so they don't get their shots either. Meanwhile he does none of the little things. So you bring Reef off the bench and it eases the shot crunch foir the starters while actually giving a scorer to what otherwise would be among the most punchless benches in the NBA.

But that is all contingent on Kenny actually rebounding and hustling to some effect. He quite obviously cannot be giving you 3pts and 3rebs or its just pointless. Then you are playing 4 on 5.

In any case Kenny is not the roleplayer we need because he is too small and cannot defend the interior. Meanwhile the evidence mounts that SAR is no longer a star quality player and may have a 6th man's type game at this point. Neither is a good starter for a team with ambitions (if we indeed still have those). But one may help the other starters be better (KT), and one has shown he can be an effective 6th man (Reef). That suggests you stay the course, grin, and bear it.

Thanks Brick, thats fair enough thats really all I was after. Thanks again.

 

[fnordius]

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

[......]

His efficiency has been at the tops of the league every freaking year. He converts shots to points.

That was kind of what I was thinking, too. During the 8 years of KT's NBA career, SAR has had a better FG% in 6 of the 8 (including their years as Kings), as well as having a higher career FG%. SAR also has a career FT% which is a full 10 points over KT's, and he hits more than twice as many FTs as KT per game (as a career average), so I don't think there's any doubt that SAR's points-per-shot is higher. Since he's been a King, no teammate has done better.

If that's never meeting a shot that he didn't like, I'd be happy to have him meeting more shots.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean that SAR should start. If KT is going to get significant minutes, they may as well be the first few of every quarter, when his low FT percentage is less likely to matter.

 

[VF21]

There isn't a player on our roster I wouldn't trade to get Rodman in his prime.

A better defender than Artest. A smarter player than Artest. A better rebounder than everyone. And just a bit loonier than Artest too.

AMEN!

Right before Shaq went to Miami, I was STILL lobbying to get Dennis on the Kings. Can you imagine the look on Shaq's face had the Kings-Lakers met in the WCF again, and there - sitting on the bench for the hated Queens - was Dennis Rodman?

 

[GeorgeofSacramento]

There isn't a player on our roster I wouldn't trade to get Rodman in his prime.

A better defender than Artest. A smarter player than Artest. A better rebounder than everyone. And just a bit loonier than Artest too.

Roman, I don't disagree at all. That scenerio only works if you truly have that superstar caliber player, which I agree Rodman was. KT isn't Rodman.

 

[kupman]

Hey, that's well and good. But if everyone always agrees with Musselman and the coaching staff this place is gonna get pretty boring.

The reason sports message boards exist is to second-guess every single decision that's made on and off the court that concerns your favorite team.

Oh, my bad........the reason that I am came here was to cheer and offer support for the Kings while second guessing the moderators.

Maybe I have it bass akwards.

 

[BMiller52]

Nah, I wasn't attacking Miller. But, you said a 6'11" player can do these things. I was saying that this isn't always true.

I mean I could have mentioned that Korean dude that Portland drafted last year or Loren Woods or Vitaly ... but I happened upon Miller first. Sorry.

A 6'11'' player(like Brad Miller) could have stopped Bogut from going off for 15 in the 3rd quarter last night...