Is Kenny Thomas untradable?

[Bricklayer]

Er, the Sixers have not improved at all since Webber arrived, and he was their last major personnel change. They didn't get better with Webber... but that's not his fault? They were awful on defense even though they had Iguodala and Dalembert, not slouches on defense.

But not even taking defense into account (which, if you've noticed, is not Webber's forte since the injury), here's the production Philadelphia got out of the PF spot (82games.com):

11.0 reb, 3.3 asissts, 2.6 TOs, 0.8 blocks, 20.1 points, 16.2 PER

Here's what the Kings horrible mismatched spare parts platoon averaged:

11.5 reb, 3.4 assists, 2.7 TOs, 0.9 blocks, 17.9 points, 17.1 PER

Philadelphia is paying a whole heckuva lot for 2.2 points and terrible defense.

Are they now? I find that a bit hard to believe given that we are paying THE SAME AMOUNT FOR OUR PFs and got the worse end of the deal. (setting aside the dubious 82games stat parade)

People can twist and distort and run panicked through the streets pulling their hair out and soiling themselves at OMG a $20 million dollar salary!!! all they want, but itr does not, has not, and will not change the following facts:

a) we won more games wiht that $20 million salary than we have at any point since it left
b) our collection of garbage PFs are paid just as much as that $20 million salary with absolutely none of the presence so that we can have the honor of watching them sit on the bench watching our 6'5" OG take over the position in the playoffs.

 

[nbrans]

Are they now? I find that a bit hard to believe given that we are paying THE SAME AMOUNT FOR OUR PFs and got the worse end of the deal. (setting aside the dubious 82games stat parade)

People can twist and distort and run panicked through the streets pulling their hair out and soiling themselves at OMG a $20 million dollar salary!!! all they want, but itr does not, has not, and will not change the following facts:

a) we won more games wiht that $20 million salary than we have at any point since it left
b) our collection of garbage PFs are paid just as much as that $20 million salary with absolutely none of the presence so that we can have the honor of watching them sit on the bench watching our 6'5" OG take over the position in the playoffs.

The point is that our $20 million terrible power forwards put up the same numbers while playing competent-if-not-spectacular defense, and could be used in a trade, unlike Webber. If not, $10 million of that happens to be coming off the books this offseason while the Sixers are stuck with the full $20 million tag. I'm not saying the Kings' PF spot is a bed of roses, but I'll take it over the Sixers' situation.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Bit ironic, isn't it? We finally get the warriors (Artest and Bonzi) that Chris said he needed to win the title, but now he isn't here to see if they could do it.
But, oh joy, we do have Kenny Thomas until, what, 2011, 2012?

 

[ezekielbear]

It DIDN'T happen, though, did it? And that was a year ago. So to assume he is still as marketable as he was back then, after another year of temper tantrums, frowny faces on the bench, etc. is not valid IMHO.

A) Never said he was marketable

B) I said we wouldn't get much in return for him in my original post

That said...there isn't anything false about him being a phone call away from being a Buck.

What we could get for him is up in the air, and I don't think much like you...but...

 

[VF21]

A) Never said he was marketable

B) I said we wouldn't get much in return for him in my original post

That said...there isn't anything false about him being a phone call away from being a Buck.

The fact he was ALMOST traded is irrelevant because it NEVER happened.

The horse is dead, its carcass has been hauled off to the rendering plant and turned into white paste which will undoubtedly be consumed by kindergarteners in the coming school year.

I think you can safely quit beating it.

 

[ezekielbear]

The fact he was ALMOST traded is irrelevant because it NEVER happened.

The horse is dead, its carcass has been hauled off to the rendering plant and turned into white paste which will undoubtedly be consumed by kindergarteners in the coming school year.

I think you can safely quit beating it.

Well...you called me wrong for saying he was almost traded...when that's been confirmed by a GM.

Still yet to see how I'm wrong...??

Now, if you'll excuse me...I'm going back to the cave to get my club to beat the Kenny Thomas Horse a few more times.

 

[Kingsgurl]

The point is that our $20 million terrible power forwards put up the same numbers while playing competent-if-not-spectacular defense, and could be used in a trade, unlike Webber.

Weren't those stats you posted PER 48 minutes? Or did you just add up their averages? Because most of the time, they don't (aside from Kenny) even play, so how can they put up any numbers? Chris puts up 20/9/4 in the minutes he DOES play, then get this, someone else gets to back him up and put in their stats. A Webber/SAR combo is far more formidable then a SAR/Thomas combo.
And wasn't the general concensus of this thread thus far that Kenny is, in fact, virtually untradable, at least thus far?
$20 mil coming off the books in one shot in 2008 seems better than $10 mil in 2007 and continuing to overpay Kenny until most of us are old and gray
And wasn't Webber actually traded for those players, while the deals we try to swing for Kenny (one confirmed) fall through? Which one is the untradable one again?

 

[nbrans]

Weren't those stats you posted PER 48 minutes? Or did you just add up their averages? Because most of the time, they don't (aside from Kenny) even play, so how can they put up any numbers? Chris puts up 20/9/4 in the minutes he DOES play, then get this, someone else gets to back him up and put in their stats. A Webber/SAR combo is far more formidable then a SAR/Thomas combo.
And wasn't the general concensus of this thread thus far that Kenny is, in fact, virtually untradable, at least thus far?
$20 mil coming off the books in one shot in 2008 seems better than $10 mil in 2007 and continuing to overpay Kenny until most of us are old and gray
And wasn't Webber actually traded for those players, while the deals we try to swing for Kenny (one confirmed) fall through? Which one is the untradable one again?

1. Those are total-production statistics from 82games.com, they take into account that multiple players play the PF position in any game, and they add up the stats of whoever played that spot.

2. Kenny is not untradeable. It's not easy to trade him and you might not like the trade options, but if you wanted to just get rid of him I really think the Bucks or someone else would be willing to trade an expiring contract for him. Something like Kenny for Joe Smith. But at the same time, if you're not going to get someone better than Kenny in a trade or use him in a trade for a big deal, why not just pay him his $7 mil? It's not like that's such a bad deal for a decent PF these days.

 

[VF21]

Well...you called me wrong for saying he was almost traded...when that's been confirmed by a GM.

Still yet to see how I'm wrong...??

Now, if you'll excuse me...I'm going back to the cave to get my club to beat the Kenny Thomas Horse a few more times.

Okay, you cheated. You edited your post after I quoted it and replied.

Had I seen the part you added:

What we could get for him is up in the air, and I don't think much like you...but...

I most likely wouldn't have made the comment I made.

 

[Kingsgurl]

1. Those are total-production statistics from 82games.com, they take into account that multiple players play the PF position in any game, and they add up the stats of whoever played that spot

Then how much of that is actually credited to SAR?

 

[VF21]

2. Kenny is not untradeable. It's not easy to trade him and you might not like the trade options, but if you wanted to just get rid of him I really think the Bucks or someone else would be willing to trade an expiring contract for him. Something like Kenny for Joe Smith. But at the same time, if you're not going to get someone better than Kenny in a trade or use him in a trade for a big deal, why not just pay him his $7 mil? It's not like that's such a bad deal for a decent PF these days.

Apparently you're much more willing to accept mediocre at the 4 than either Kingsgurl or I. And that's fine, if that's your wont.

Kenny Thomas is not an adequate PF. He's a tweener with a bad attitude who is being paid a high amount of money into the next decade with questionable return at best.

Are you still going to be this high on him in 2009 when we're STILL trying to move his salary and his performance has waned?

 

[Troy]

Apparently you're much more willing to accept mediocre at the 4 than either Kingsgurl or I. And that's fine, if that's your wont.

Kenny Thomas is not an adequate PF. He's a tweener with a bad attitude who is being paid a high amount of money into the next decade with questionable return at best.

Are you still going to be this high on him in 2009 when we're STILL trying to move his salary and his performance has waned?

Oh GOD I hope we trade him before then. As all of you know, it's his attitude more than anything and his size...but he is scrappy.

 

[VF21]

Yes, he's scrappy. But so's a chihuahua. And it doesn't help at a pit bull fight.

 

[BigSong]

Apparently you're much more willing to accept mediocre at the 4 than either Kingsgurl or I. And that's fine, if that's your wont.

Kenny Thomas is not an adequate PF. He's a tweener with a bad attitude who is being paid a high amount of money into the next decade with questionable return at best.

Are you still going to be this high on him in 2009 when we're STILL trying to move his salary and his performance has waned?

sheesh you sure know how to dish out the rigamarole.

 

[VF21]

sheesh you sure know how to dish out the rigamarole.

Sorry, but the only "rigamarole" I know is a term used to describe a needlessly complicated process of doing something that is actually fairly simple. As in, "We had to go through a lot of rigamarole to register when all we really needed to do was sign a piece of paper."

 

[Kingsgurl]

Yes, he's scrappy. But so's a chihuahua. And it doesn't help at a pit bull fight.

Totally OT, but those Chihuahua's are mean. I volunteered at a shot fair, handing out collars for those in need. Got bit by one of those little buggers. I'll put your collar on your Pit Bull for you, but if you got a Chi, you are on your own.

NBrans- My apologies, I'm sick and Dayquilled out. I see what your stats are supposed to depict now. I still find them pretty much apples and oranges, diffenent systems, different team-mates etc. I don't find Kenny to be my opinion of what we need at PF, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[VF21]

Totally OT, but those Chihuahua's are mean. I volunteered at a shot fair, handing out collars for those in need. Got bit by one of those little buggers. I'll put your collar on your Pit Bull for you, but if you got a Chi, you are on your own.

And that basically proves my point. (I remembered you telling me about the Chi, actually, which is why I used one as an example.)

Chihuahuas are scrappy and mean. But they still won't win a fight against a determined pit bull or any other dog that simply outweighs, outreaches, etc.

And that's the whole problem with Kenny Thomas. No matter how hard he tries, he can't learn taller or bigger.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

And that basically proves my point. (I remembered you telling me about the Chi, actually, which is why I used one as an example.)

Chihuahuas are scrappy and mean. But they still won't win a fight against a determined pit bull or any other dog that simply outweighs, outreaches, etc.

And that's the whole problem with Kenny Thomas. No matter how hard he tries, he can't learn taller or bigger.

Ding Ding Ding!! This post wins this thread!!(and every other thread about KT, for that matter)

 

[ezekielbear]

Okay, you cheated. You edited your post after I quoted it and replied.

I had a little help from Dick Bavetta.

*giggle*

 

[ParniValjak]

Weren't those stats you posted PER 48 minutes? Or did you just add up their averages? Because most of the time, they don't (aside from Kenny) even play, so how can they put up any numbers? Chris puts up 20/9/4 in the minutes he DOES play, then get this, someone else gets to back him up and put in their stats. A Webber/SAR combo is far more formidable then a SAR/Thomas combo.
And wasn't the general concensus of this thread thus far that Kenny is, in fact, virtually untradable, at least thus far?
$20 mil coming off the books in one shot in 2008 seems better than $10 mil in 2007 and continuing to overpay Kenny until most of us are old and gray
And wasn't Webber actually traded for those players, while the deals we try to swing for Kenny (one confirmed) fall through? Which one is the untradable one again?

I am not going to argue about the production because its a mute point. However, I will argue on the SAR thing. What makes you, or anyone else think that SAR would come to Sacramento if Webber was still here. IIRC, when SAR became a FA he wanted to go to a winner AND be a starter. Yeah, he ended up being a bencher here but originally he came in as a starter and I very much doubt he would come to the Kings if he knew he would be a back up to Webber or Thomas for that matter.

 

[VF21]

You don't know that SAR wouldn't have agreed to come here. He might have been playing sixth man, but it would be on one pretty fantastic team. He wanted to come to a team that would make the playoffs. IIRC, SAR never really said anything about being a starter.

All this is getting pretty far afield from the original topic, though. Webber ALONE at the 4 is still much more formidable than KT/SAR, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Kingsgurl]

What makes you, or anyone else think that SAR would come to Sacramento if Webber was still here. IIRC, when SAR became a FA he wanted to go to a winner

IMO, SAR wanted to play for a winner, taste the Play Offs far more than he was worried, at this point of his career, with being a starter. Given his attitude during the past season and the things he said and did as pertains to starting and not starting, I would have to say my position that he would indeed have come is stronger than your position that he wouldn't have.

 

[Goo]

Not sure what you can get for KT except swapping bad apple for bad banana but I am sure you can get a lot from SAR.

Bull
rocket
heat
net - maybe
boston
laker

Just to name a few will all be very happy to land SAR.

 

[Bricklayer]

Not sure what you can get for KT except swapping bad apple for bad banana but I am sure you can get a lot from SAR.

Bull
rocket
heat
net - maybe
boston
laker

Just to name a few will all be very happy to land SAR.

If SAR is willing to accept a bench or platoon roll I'm sure there are numerous teams that would want him (including us BTW). But in that kind of situation it may be kind of tough to get a team to give up a starting quality big for a guy who is going to be a platoon guy for them.

Then you go to teams that might be able to plug him in as a starter, and the list gets shorter, although you may have a better shot at getting soemthing valuable back. The problem that you always face is that Reef does not have the game of a roleplayer, so unless he comes off the bench you have to find somebody who would want to plug him in as a major piece and rely on him. But unfrotunately the teams most likely to want to do that with a guy like Reef are bad teams for whom Reef might not fit into their youth movements.

 

[Ryle]

How about Kenny and Hart to Milwaukee for Magliore??? Doubtful they would do it since Magloire is an expiring contract but didn't they almost send us Mason last year for Thomas or was that some other sucke...I mean team.

 

[Kings113]

Not as realistic now. Villanueva will be the starting PF, and KT doesn't like to come off the bench, doubt it'd change there, especially behind a 2nd year player. Do the Bucks know about KT's bench stuff? All factors in why a deal with the Bucks isn't as realistic anymore.

Same for Garcia since they have Noel now, who is the swingman Harris wanted to get off the bench (defender, athletic, handler, shoot).

Best scenario is to the Wizards or maybe the Hawks.

 

[bench_blob]

The point is, NewMonkey, that the Maloofs panicked and made a trade out of fear of what MIGHT happen. And, unfortunately for them, it DIDN'T happen.

That's what some of us objected to at the time and, as more time passes, it appears we were right. Webber was still able to put up close to his career averages, meaning he would have been a big help had, as I said earlier, the trades made AFTER his still occurred.

And comparing the Sixers performances is totally irrelevant to the scenario, IMHO. Had the Webber trade not happened, the Sixers wouldn't have even been in the hunt for the playoffs IMHO, so the fact they still didn't make it can't really be put at Webber's feet.

P.S. And I will still never be completely convinced the Webber trade wasn't because of a certain prima dona SF as much as anything else.

Putting up stats does not make you an effective player.

How many 76er games did you even watch last year? Any 76er fan will tell you C-Webb is a shell of his former self....he gives up as many points as he scores....

If the goal of the Kings is to win a championship, why would you, or your cohort Bricklayer, even argue against that trade?

The Kings were destined to be mediocre at best with C-Webb, and his teammates would never have been able to flourish b/c of the way he monopolizes the ball. (i.e. Peja before the trade, K-Mart and Bonzi after the trade.)

True it would have been nice to get something more than 3 role players, but that was indicative of C-Webbs market value at the time...he was an aging player with very questionable health with a huge contract....Geoff Petrie was willing to make ANY deal and the 76er trio was the best offer, probably the ONLY offer.

The trade was addition by subtraction. Period.

And, by the way, to say the Maloofs panicked, is a flat falsehood. Thats your interpretation of what happened, which has no basis in fact.

I was pleading for the Kings to dump C-Webb all year before it happened, and when they did, it was a triumphant day in Kings history, and as it stands, it still is today.

 

[Bricklayer]

I was pleading for the Kings to dump C-Webb all year before it happened, and when they did, it was a triumphant day in Kings history, and as it stands, it still is today.

That wouldn't happen to be Kings History For Dummies would it?


Truly a "triumphant day in history".

Never mind we have won less, still pay the entire salary for less production, haven't been able to move any of the "flexible pieces" for anything of worth, traded away an icon, and won't even benefit from the mega-expiring contract that Philly will have next summer. You really need to try to sell that crap someplace where the people are...well, a little denser might be a start. Gullible would help too.

 

[reyes13]

I also was looking forward to moving Webber...mostly because of his ridiculous salary. I thought by now that we would have been able to do something. We were all wrong in thinking moving these contracts would be easy.

 

[Goo]

If SAR is willing to accept a bench or platoon roll I'm sure there are numerous teams that would want him (including us BTW). But in that kind of situation it may be kind of tough to get a team to give up a starting quality big for a guy who is going to be a platoon guy for them.

Then you go to teams that might be able to plug him in as a starter, and the list gets shorter, although you may have a better shot at getting soemthing valuable back. The problem that you always face is that Reef does not have the game of a roleplayer, so unless he comes off the bench you have to find somebody who would want to plug him in as a major piece and rely on him. But unfrotunately the teams most likely to want to do that with a guy like Reef are bad teams for whom Reef might not fit into their youth movements.

Yes and no, team that have good C or dominant 1st option can really use SAR's post game.

Hou - Swift for SAR
LAL - KBrown or DGeorge for SAR
Chi - Tyson for SAR + ?
Bos - olowokandi for SAR + ?(I know this is bad)
Cle - anyone except LBJ/Z for SAR...

I am not saying Kings should trade SAR but we can't find a taker for KT maybe it is better off to trade SAR for a rebounder.