[Game] 56/82: Warriors @ Kings 21 FEB 2025, 7pm PT/10pm ET
- Thread starter QWERTYLICIOUS
- Start date
Right on point. "Unacceptable". Undersized geriatric "Warriors"? (more like war veterans) had how many offensive rebounds in the first q? Even if GSW had only one offensive rebound in the first 12 minutes - that's 1 too many. Remember when DC went with JV and Domas against small Dallas cause the main reason was to limit opponents offense to one shot? It worked then. Offense is just a mess right now. Does GSW have a big that can stop Domas alone in the paint? Nope. Immediate double or whatever help comes. Yet, Domas keep polishing three point line without any bleeping navigation.
Ahhhhhh, whatever. It's up to head coach or interim head coach to control his team and navigate it to the best result. There is no shame in losing in sports. As long as you do your best. Sad thing is that in NBA now coaches can't do their best. DC before ASB had to explain DDR and get his permission to sit him on the bench at the end of the game because the situation required that. So what, coaches nowadays have to negotiate with some of their players about what they should on the court???
Just to finish - if starters didn't show up - next game start another 5 guys. JV, Lyles, LaRavia, Ellis and Fultz - good luck starters beating them.
Ahhhhhh, whatever. It's up to head coach or interim head coach to control his team and navigate it to the best result. There is no shame in losing in sports. As long as you do your best. Sad thing is that in NBA now coaches can't do their best. DC before ASB had to explain DDR and get his permission to sit him on the bench at the end of the game because the situation required that. So what, coaches nowadays have to negotiate with some of their players about what they should on the court???
Just to finish - if starters didn't show up - next game start another 5 guys. JV, Lyles, LaRavia, Ellis and Fultz - good luck starters beating them.
There appears to be a long term development plan there. Same with Isaac Jones. All in all Jones has been no worse than Lyles yet he's not getting time either. The Kings are going all in on trying to push and using vets is what desperate teams tend to do. Fultz is a why not, devil you know, mid level ceiling you can trust retread that fits. If teams keep trying to pull that same rabbit out of that shallow hat on it's way to mediocrity and let potential die on the vine? Well, then you're the Sacramento Kings. What's new.
It is an unfortunate situation with Christie. Does he just make everyone happy and lose his job at the end of the year, or does he ruffle feathers and lose his job at the end of the year?
I think there are enough hungry players on this roster to help Christie with the latter. If he's the guy some of us believe he is, he'll work on the latter and we'll clean house in the off-season.
I think there are enough hungry players on this roster to help Christie with the latter. If he's the guy some of us believe he is, he'll work on the latter and we'll clean house in the off-season.
You have to look at the numbers since Christie took over. So lets say the last 15 games even though LaVine obviously doesn't have as many games, nonetheless.
Right now Keon with Monk and the starters is
Offense Defense. Net
118.2 119.6 -1.3
However, Keon and LaVine with the starters is
Offense Defense. Net
115.4 106.5 +8.9
Now, this might largely be because teams are starting to push the skinny guard combo of Monk and Keon down into the painted area and mid range consistently and then the help breaks down from there. Keon makes up for what he lacks in strength with great hands and effort, Monk very often does not. This is where you really see the difference between players like Fultz and Carter who have strength and length and play facing their man in the classic "sitting" position and rotate at a 180 degree angle facing the ball handler. Keon typically guards with one foot posted back behind him and at one angle for leverage so he can combat his man if they start to drive through him. The problem there is a players defensive "strike zone" if you will is basically the distance between the outward shoulder and the length of their back arm when outstretched. Half their wingspan essentially which leads a player open to giving up passing and driving angles to the rim. If a player can consistently face up their man and continuously change up their angle, they get every bit out of their wingspan and can use it to inhibit passing and iso driving. Fultz did some of last night although he's not all that great laterally in terms of speed when compared to someone like Devin Carter. Fultz is big and solid though and both can defend with their chest which you want out of at least one on ball defender. We'll see what happens but I'm not sure you can survive having two super skinny players at PG/SG at the same time. I guess it depends how teams attack it. Fox has legit strength and is more of a wiry type but now that he's gone teams are taking advantage of the Monk/Keon combo. I'd like to see the Kings finally start looking at the 5 mans and doing what they tell them.
Right now Keon with Monk and the starters is
Offense Defense. Net
118.2 119.6 -1.3
However, Keon and LaVine with the starters is
Offense Defense. Net
115.4 106.5 +8.9
Now, this might largely be because teams are starting to push the skinny guard combo of Monk and Keon down into the painted area and mid range consistently and then the help breaks down from there. Keon makes up for what he lacks in strength with great hands and effort, Monk very often does not. This is where you really see the difference between players like Fultz and Carter who have strength and length and play facing their man in the classic "sitting" position and rotate at a 180 degree angle facing the ball handler. Keon typically guards with one foot posted back behind him and at one angle for leverage so he can combat his man if they start to drive through him. The problem there is a players defensive "strike zone" if you will is basically the distance between the outward shoulder and the length of their back arm when outstretched. Half their wingspan essentially which leads a player open to giving up passing and driving angles to the rim. If a player can consistently face up their man and continuously change up their angle, they get every bit out of their wingspan and can use it to inhibit passing and iso driving. Fultz did some of last night although he's not all that great laterally in terms of speed when compared to someone like Devin Carter. Fultz is big and solid though and both can defend with their chest which you want out of at least one on ball defender. We'll see what happens but I'm not sure you can survive having two super skinny players at PG/SG at the same time. I guess it depends how teams attack it. Fox has legit strength and is more of a wiry type but now that he's gone teams are taking advantage of the Monk/Keon combo. I'd like to see the Kings finally start looking at the 5 mans and doing what they tell them.
Yeah, this.
My guess is Fox probably told us this summer there was nothing to worry about, he was just going to go for all nba, and would resign either way. But really, he was orchestrating this move the whole time and once it became 100% clear that all nba was off the table, he rug-pulled us.
Is what it is. Like i said at the time of the trade, 5.5/10 seems like a fair eval. Didn't get near the value we should have, but didn't walk with nothing either
My guess is Fox probably told us this summer there was nothing to worry about, he was just going to go for all nba, and would resign either way. But really, he was orchestrating this move the whole time and once it became 100% clear that all nba was off the table, he rug-pulled us.
Is what it is. Like i said at the time of the trade, 5.5/10 seems like a fair eval. Didn't get near the value we should have, but didn't walk with nothing either
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You don’t need leverage to get one good pick in a trade for a top 35 player. If they don’t wanna trade any hawks pick then you get this year's pick from them top 5 protected. Why would you want next years pick when it’s 100% gonna be worse you’re telling me you can’t get that pick at minimum. They wanted Lavine from the start and sacrificed assets for it that’s clear as day but but aye atleast we got the 11th seed for the next half decade
I think it was said that his knee was messed up most of last season and he might have been recovering. Look, no doubt, the guy is a walking injury list. The more I'm looking at this, I think the signing of Fultz was to try and see if the Kings could perhaps find a temporary replacement for Fox on the interior. Fultz isn't high on most teams list because of the injuries and he's not a noted shooter but if you look at his stats at the rim he's almost identical to Fox most seasons. Not quite as good but almost and with an even higher percentage of his shots being of near the rim.
Here's the truth, the answer has to be Carter at some point and now the Kings might actually really be riding on it. Haters take note, it's the only conclusion. Now he has to start really showing those PG skills because with Fox a combo G was more of a need and maybe more natural for Carter but the pnr play seen at Providence in his last season has to transfer over. Right now the only thing he does look really good at is the draw and kick which is supposedly what the Kings are looking for so... Even with the limited minutes he's played this season he's already 3rd in assist percentage on the team w/o Fox and in the list of players playing over 100 minutes of game time. Even above a supposed true PG in McLaughlin. His assist percentage is as a matter of fact right there with Lonzo this season at around 24%. Carter is more of a connective passer ATM but that might be just fine considering Domas' abilities.
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I thought we would crush the Dubs small ball lineup, instead, they manhandled us. Utter dominance., embarrassing.
They addressed their weakness by adding the right pieces, most notably Jimmy Butler before the deadline. We tried, but failed, the main focus should have been upgrading the starting unit.
Monte gotta go and Vivek, it's time to hand over the team to someone who can handle it better.
LaVine is an odd man out, even if he improves his production, period. The next is Deebo, it's his way or the Kings' style of way, we gotta choose one of them for good, they cannot co-exist on the court. No more scorers, they cannot make shots once they don the Kings jersey, anyway.
They addressed their weakness by adding the right pieces, most notably Jimmy Butler before the deadline. We tried, but failed, the main focus should have been upgrading the starting unit.
Monte gotta go and Vivek, it's time to hand over the team to someone who can handle it better.
LaVine is an odd man out, even if he improves his production, period. The next is Deebo, it's his way or the Kings' style of way, we gotta choose one of them for good, they cannot co-exist on the court. No more scorers, they cannot make shots once they don the Kings jersey, anyway.
Lets see. The advantage of a player like Carter isn't that rookies don't rookie, it's that hopefully their incline is a lot steeper since they typically don't have to physically develop in any drastic sense. 19-20 year olds in the NBA barely learned how to shave and some are even peach fuzzers so you usually have to wait a few years for there to be hair where there was no hair before, lol. At 22-23, if he's not ascending by next season then it's probably a flatter curve. Then he's probably a rotation level bencher at best.
Right now if you looked at Carters per minute productivity in limited game time and this was a crypto graph, the predictions are showing that the productivity might match up just the way you'd expect with time. That doesn't guarantee even if it does he's a starter in the league, helping you win, or even in the league in a few years but the areas where he's producing in a raw sense look about right. That's a pretty darn good sign. The defensive metrics in the 6 spaced areas of opponent shooting out to 29 feet show major potential and impact already. In fact he's leading in most of them amongst qualified players including Keon and Keegan. The areas where players can develop (handling, shooting) he has shown promise, the areas you can't or usually don't (elite athletic ability, upper range defensive capability, hustle, physicality) he has as well. No, this isn't someone that should be struggling to find an identity even by next season, he either gets it or he doesn't, but the opportunity has to come otherwise you're just wasting another lottery pick. Yeah, summer is going to be really important and the way the Kings have developed Keon is another reason to be hopeful.
Right now if you looked at Carters per minute productivity in limited game time and this was a crypto graph, the predictions are showing that the productivity might match up just the way you'd expect with time. That doesn't guarantee even if it does he's a starter in the league, helping you win, or even in the league in a few years but the areas where he's producing in a raw sense look about right. That's a pretty darn good sign. The defensive metrics in the 6 spaced areas of opponent shooting out to 29 feet show major potential and impact already. In fact he's leading in most of them amongst qualified players including Keon and Keegan. The areas where players can develop (handling, shooting) he has shown promise, the areas you can't or usually don't (elite athletic ability, upper range defensive capability, hustle, physicality) he has as well. No, this isn't someone that should be struggling to find an identity even by next season, he either gets it or he doesn't, but the opportunity has to come otherwise you're just wasting another lottery pick. Yeah, summer is going to be really important and the way the Kings have developed Keon is another reason to be hopeful.
I think one of the biggest things that stands out to me (other than our defense and starting 4 below average defenders) is the lack of paint penetration.
Fox could essentially break down the defense at will, collapse the defense/paint, and get the opposing team in rotation when he kicked it out. LaVine doesn’t seem as capable in this department. He seems more reliant on shooting over you vs. getting by you. Same goes for DeRozan (even more so). With that in mind, it’s not too surprising that our offense appears stagnant for stretches.
Just to highlight the point, Fox is averaging 15.5 drives per game, and Lavine is averaging 8.9 drives per game. That’s a lot of paint touches being removed from the game which also means less meaningful touches for the supporting cast as the ball is being swung around after the defense collapses on Fox.
Look LaVine has been a good, efficient scorer during his career, but I see him more as a finisher rather than an initiator. If we had someone who could collapse the defense to start (Hey! This sounds like Fox), good luck stopping LaVine when the ball is swung to him with some room to take a 3 or a half step head start on his man when taking the ball to the rack. But when you ask him to take his man off the dribble from a standstill, I don’t see him getting by his man as often as you’d want from someone in that role. His 1-on-1 shots seems to be more reliant on creating some separation and taking a step back jumper rather than getting by his man.
If the plan is to move forward with LaVine at SG, we either need someone who is very good at collapsing the paint and kicking out or someone who is a very good PnR PG who is great at finding teammates out of that action (and it would be great if that player could play some defense considering our issues on that side of the ball).
For the time being, if I’m Christie, I’m putting the ball in Monk’s hands to start the game and focusing heavily on that PnR game with Sabonis to get the ball moving and swung around when the defense rotates. My first sub would be DeRozan to the bench and then you bring DeRozan back in to run the PnR with Sabonis/Valanciunas. Ideally, I’d like to keep one of Monk or DeRozan on the floor at all times (although Fultz may prove to be a guy that can play this role a bit for us) and have them focus on utilizing the PnR to break down the defense and generate some more favorable looks for LaVine to exploit. I think Christie is making a big mistake having both Monk and DeRozan off the floor at the same time and asking LaVine to run the offense. That’s not his game.
Fox could essentially break down the defense at will, collapse the defense/paint, and get the opposing team in rotation when he kicked it out. LaVine doesn’t seem as capable in this department. He seems more reliant on shooting over you vs. getting by you. Same goes for DeRozan (even more so). With that in mind, it’s not too surprising that our offense appears stagnant for stretches.
Just to highlight the point, Fox is averaging 15.5 drives per game, and Lavine is averaging 8.9 drives per game. That’s a lot of paint touches being removed from the game which also means less meaningful touches for the supporting cast as the ball is being swung around after the defense collapses on Fox.
Look LaVine has been a good, efficient scorer during his career, but I see him more as a finisher rather than an initiator. If we had someone who could collapse the defense to start (Hey! This sounds like Fox), good luck stopping LaVine when the ball is swung to him with some room to take a 3 or a half step head start on his man when taking the ball to the rack. But when you ask him to take his man off the dribble from a standstill, I don’t see him getting by his man as often as you’d want from someone in that role. His 1-on-1 shots seems to be more reliant on creating some separation and taking a step back jumper rather than getting by his man.
If the plan is to move forward with LaVine at SG, we either need someone who is very good at collapsing the paint and kicking out or someone who is a very good PnR PG who is great at finding teammates out of that action (and it would be great if that player could play some defense considering our issues on that side of the ball).
For the time being, if I’m Christie, I’m putting the ball in Monk’s hands to start the game and focusing heavily on that PnR game with Sabonis to get the ball moving and swung around when the defense rotates. My first sub would be DeRozan to the bench and then you bring DeRozan back in to run the PnR with Sabonis/Valanciunas. Ideally, I’d like to keep one of Monk or DeRozan on the floor at all times (although Fultz may prove to be a guy that can play this role a bit for us) and have them focus on utilizing the PnR to break down the defense and generate some more favorable looks for LaVine to exploit. I think Christie is making a big mistake having both Monk and DeRozan off the floor at the same time and asking LaVine to run the offense. That’s not his game.
I’m on the record for saying the starting and closing lineup should remain as is (Monk, LaVine, DeRozan, Murray, & Sabonis), but among the many reasons I stated as to why, none of them relate to winning more games this season.
Now if we were living in a vacuum and all that mattered was winning the most games we can this year, I’d go with a starting lineup of…
Monk
Ellis
LaVine
Murray
Sabonis
As you probably could have guessed, I obviously don’t like playing small with LaVine at the 3 (and that needs to be corrected in the offseason). However, DeRozan is not that big & long at the 3 either and he’s certainly not defending or rebounding at a level that is taking advantage of his bigger size/length compared to LaVine so I think it’s a bit of a wash at the end of the day. However, starting LaVine over DeRozan does a few things…
Now if we were living in a vacuum and all that mattered was winning the most games we can this year, I’d go with a starting lineup of…
Monk
Ellis
LaVine
Murray
Sabonis
As you probably could have guessed, I obviously don’t like playing small with LaVine at the 3 (and that needs to be corrected in the offseason). However, DeRozan is not that big & long at the 3 either and he’s certainly not defending or rebounding at a level that is taking advantage of his bigger size/length compared to LaVine so I think it’s a bit of a wash at the end of the day. However, starting LaVine over DeRozan does a few things…
- It keeps an elite floor spacer on the floor to help open the PnR up for Monk/Sabonis. In fact, Ellis, LaVine, & Murray is a lot of shooting around that action).
- I like the combo of Monk & LaVine in transition vs. Monk & DeRozan. I think we can capitalize on those opportunities much more with the former two especially with Ellis starting and getting a bunch of deflections and steals.
- It allows DeRozan to be the primary scorer/playmaker off the bench. As I mentioned in my previous post, I’d rather have DeRozan in that initiator role over LaVine. I think LaVine will be at his best when he’s utilized as a finisher and is involved towards the end of the action vs. at the beginning of the action.
If Monte gave up the 2025 Chicago 1st round pick for LaVine, that pick was likely never going to convey, because it was top 10 protected, much like the Charlotte pick was lottery protected.
Chicago is currently at #8 in draft order, if they don't make the play-in, which I'm sure they would had aimed to miss the play-in, if they didn't get their own pick back.
Chicago is currently at #8 in draft order, if they don't make the play-in, which I'm sure they would had aimed to miss the play-in, if they didn't get their own pick back.
Indeed. But I still don't believe that all of a sudden with no warning that Fox blindsided McNair just a couple of months ago. Until I see some facts to the contrary I'll continue to believe that Monte had many, many months to prepare for a Fox exit. The fact that he was caught flat-footed doesn't speak very well of him, imo. Neither Fox nor McNair look very good in this.
Fox has shown that he's a passive aggressive **** from early in his career. There's no reason to believe that he would be upfront with management on anything. You have to read the tea leaves with him and McNair blew it. He absolutely blew it. If anybody thinks that McNair should have taken Fox's word about staying with the Kings on face value, they have no clue. He should have started with the premise that he would leave and work from there, which means he should have dealt him probably over a year ago with all the hoopla over his performance during the playoffs and his popularity at the highest possible level. Instead, McNair allowed himself to be played like the proverbial violin.