[Game] 42/82: Kings vs. Wizards 19 JAN 2025, 6pm PT/9pm ET
- Thread starter Mr. S£im Citrus
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kuzna was pitiful in this game. I thought he was literally selling the game in the 2nd half by some things he was doing. He looked high or on something, no lie. Especially on that 5 sec inbound play he didn’t even realize no one was on that side of the court to get the pass, and even when his teammate was in distress he stayed on opposite side of court. Super low awareness to anything going on. Kispert has way more value around the league.
Fully agree on Kuzma. He is washed and not sure which team would like to get him...
About JV, many teams are rumoured to land him during trade window. He can give a good boost to most teams and it would be super nice to have Domas backup another lithuanian
About JV, many teams are rumoured to land him during trade window. He can give a good boost to most teams and it would be super nice to have Domas backup another lithuanian
Defensively, Len is way better. Can protect the room, move around better, etc.
Yes Jonas can post up better but he changes a teams style drastically when he’s in. No more lanes for Fox, less post ups for DeRozan, etc. He’s a better rebounder than Len sure, but a lot of that is he’s so immobile he stays under the basket a lot on both ends.
It’s not about scoring for a big man, especially on a system and team like Kings where they stagger the minutes so they have (2) 20 point scorers always in with the bench. Len could attempt 0 shots as he did tonight until the end 3’ and still be effective offensively (not a liability) because he moves the ball, screen sets, etc.
As I’ve said repeatedly, if they want a different look at 5’ and want a shooter that may make sense. But if you want a traditional 5 that can move, play defense, play big, shot block Len is prob the best options. There’s always trade offs too. Get a more athletic big that can roll better, and he prob can’t screen as good or know Kings system or beat up other team under basket. Get a guy with more mass than Len like Jonas and he can’t run the floor like Len, move defensively, etc.
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What do you think Mike Brown and now Doug Christie are missing with Len's play? Len only got in the game to match-up with Jval's size and Jval proceeded to have one of his best games of the season.
He's not a rotation player anymore. He's lost a step this season compared to the last 2 and even in those years, he wasn't a consistent back-up C option that could spell Domas game in and game out. Again, Len has been here the entire time Domas has and yet, we've had to run Domas into the ground because no one has been able to sustain any sort of level of competent play to give him rest.
Even if we don't go strike big with a Cam Johnson/John Collins sort of swing, we have to address back-up C. The Kings cannot afford to leave Domas on an island where we have to push him 37+ every game to get a win.
He's not a rotation player anymore. He's lost a step this season compared to the last 2 and even in those years, he wasn't a consistent back-up C option that could spell Domas game in and game out. Again, Len has been here the entire time Domas has and yet, we've had to run Domas into the ground because no one has been able to sustain any sort of level of competent play to give him rest.
Even if we don't go strike big with a Cam Johnson/John Collins sort of swing, we have to address back-up C. The Kings cannot afford to leave Domas on an island where we have to push him 37+ every game to get a win.
This has become THE narrative of the Mike Brown firing among Kings fans but it's mostly fiction. Keon Ellis had 2 DNP-CD in the first 31 games before Mike Brown was fired, it's not like he was riding the bench for months. And aside from that week in early January when Keon got pushed into the starting lineup because of injuries, Doug Christie is playing him the same amount of minutes that Mike Brown was. Look it up.
I don't think Chistie is missing much ... Len has been the backup when they've gone the traditional route. Like I said a spacer like Lyles at the 5' has worked a bit and that argument can be made. Now Brown was just trigger-happy with pulling guys from the rotation - Len, Elllis, trying random combos, etc.
Jonas went off had very little to do with Len in my opinion. Many of Jonas' minutes was when Sabonis was in (maybe half/half, gotta check), and Jonas produces #'s. That's what he does vs anybody. They went to him more last night so of course he scored more. In the 2nd half, Jonas just scored 1 basket on Len pretty sure 1 on 1 (and this was on a clear push off that should have been offensive foul) and turned the ball over another time.
I can see the argument Len has looked a tad bit slower compared to last year but I don't think it's a drastic change at all. Len has barely played this year so of course if you're judging a guy's foot speed / agility when he hasn't played in a week, he'll look a bit more rusty. I think a lot of people criticizing Len this year are simply judging him against Sabonis, who has been out of this world this season. Any backup Center wouldn't look that great behind Sabonis the way he's playing. I mean the only other traditional big that has played this year has been Orlando Robinson, and agility/speed/athleticism people objectively viewed him below Len in that regard.
I also think Stylistically the Kings offense when the whole bench is in (talking 3 min left in 1st to 9 minute left in 2nd roughly) has been mediocre and this has nothing to do with who the bigs are. Watch the tape. DeRozan is 99% on the court during this stretch, usually along with Fox. And it seems the Kings coaching staff has instructed DeRozan to run his iso more during this time, instead of moving the ball, running DHO's etc. Len was highly effective last year because of the ball movement and the wide open lane when he sagged the defense in going to the basket. Now, you got DeRozan occupying space in the mid-range area which has caused some adjustment. And I think Len has adjusted in the last few weeks compared to earlier in the year and has looked better. This is nuance you only notice if you pay attention, and it's hard to notice because Len's minutes have been so scattered. Again cause of the spacing issues with DeRozan, I've been consistent saying a spacer 5' may make sense but as I've stated which traditional big is better than Len? And is it offensively or defensively? Break down how exactly this big will function better than Len when Fox & DeRozan are running ISO's, picks, etc? And if it's defensively are you (or another poster) suggesting another big can cover for Lyles, DeRozan, Fox in protecting the paint better than Len? It might sound harsh but I think a lot posters here just get obsessed with #'s - see a big can "8 and 8" and think Kings need that from their backup center. They don't. It's a team game and #'s are team based - a backup center is not scoring 6/8 ppg in 12 mpg on this team while Fox & DeRozan are sharing the court with him.
May think I'm biased or whatever 'cause I guess I favor bigs who do the little things & play defense, but I just don't agree that Len is lacking anything to play 15 minutes behind Sabonis. It's a coaching decision to run Sabonis into the ground.
Jonas went off had very little to do with Len in my opinion. Many of Jonas' minutes was when Sabonis was in (maybe half/half, gotta check), and Jonas produces #'s. That's what he does vs anybody. They went to him more last night so of course he scored more. In the 2nd half, Jonas just scored 1 basket on Len pretty sure 1 on 1 (and this was on a clear push off that should have been offensive foul) and turned the ball over another time.
I can see the argument Len has looked a tad bit slower compared to last year but I don't think it's a drastic change at all. Len has barely played this year so of course if you're judging a guy's foot speed / agility when he hasn't played in a week, he'll look a bit more rusty. I think a lot of people criticizing Len this year are simply judging him against Sabonis, who has been out of this world this season. Any backup Center wouldn't look that great behind Sabonis the way he's playing. I mean the only other traditional big that has played this year has been Orlando Robinson, and agility/speed/athleticism people objectively viewed him below Len in that regard.
I also think Stylistically the Kings offense when the whole bench is in (talking 3 min left in 1st to 9 minute left in 2nd roughly) has been mediocre and this has nothing to do with who the bigs are. Watch the tape. DeRozan is 99% on the court during this stretch, usually along with Fox. And it seems the Kings coaching staff has instructed DeRozan to run his iso more during this time, instead of moving the ball, running DHO's etc. Len was highly effective last year because of the ball movement and the wide open lane when he sagged the defense in going to the basket. Now, you got DeRozan occupying space in the mid-range area which has caused some adjustment. And I think Len has adjusted in the last few weeks compared to earlier in the year and has looked better. This is nuance you only notice if you pay attention, and it's hard to notice because Len's minutes have been so scattered. Again cause of the spacing issues with DeRozan, I've been consistent saying a spacer 5' may make sense but as I've stated which traditional big is better than Len? And is it offensively or defensively? Break down how exactly this big will function better than Len when Fox & DeRozan are running ISO's, picks, etc? And if it's defensively are you (or another poster) suggesting another big can cover for Lyles, DeRozan, Fox in protecting the paint better than Len? It might sound harsh but I think a lot posters here just get obsessed with #'s - see a big can "8 and 8" and think Kings need that from their backup center. They don't. It's a team game and #'s are team based - a backup center is not scoring 6/8 ppg in 12 mpg on this team while Fox & DeRozan are sharing the court with him.
May think I'm biased or whatever 'cause I guess I favor bigs who do the little things & play defense, but I just don't agree that Len is lacking anything to play 15 minutes behind Sabonis. It's a coaching decision to run Sabonis into the ground.
He hasn't "lost a step". He's the same player and Christie has been using him more than Brown did. You told us he wasn't an NBA player two years ago and that he'd be out of the league,... then changed your mind and said "had to eat crow" when Brown decided to play him and he got a rhythm going....and earned another contract with the Kings,... while others like Orlando Robinson, who you were excited about, don't make the cut.
Just play Lyles or Collins if they get him, if they want a stretch 5 in there
Just play Lyles or Collins if they get him, if they want a stretch 5 in there
Since Christie took over he's played 68 minutes in 11 games. He has 3 DNP-CD. He has 2 games over 10 minutes in the Christie era. That's "using him more?" Do you even bother to look things up before spewing a baffling take?
Yeah, I atoned for my sins on that take 3 years ago. He's been a good end of bench big the last 2 seasons. I don't mind keeping him in that role as all reports show him to be a great locker room guy and having some good size at the end of the bench. But the proof is in the pudding on my side, not yours, as it's always been. Why has he not been able to lock down a consistent back-up role in 3 years then? Why is he getting DNP-CD from new coach Doug Christie? It's because he's not good enough to play a consistent back-up role.
Yeah, I atoned for my sins on that take 3 years ago. He's been a good end of bench big the last 2 seasons. I don't mind keeping him in that role as all reports show him to be a great locker room guy and having some good size at the end of the bench. But the proof is in the pudding on my side, not yours, as it's always been. Why has he not been able to lock down a consistent back-up role in 3 years then? Why is he getting DNP-CD from new coach Doug Christie? It's because he's not good enough to play a consistent back-up role.
I do see the difference in how he's being used and I commend Doug for the adjustments he's made to the offense and the defense. He's found a way to elevate everybody's game, not just Keon's. Doug is doing a phenomenal job so far in his new role as head coach. But it still irks me that 3/4 of the fan base are gleefully parroting back this fiction that Mike Brown was DNP-CD'ing Keon Ellis into oblivion. It's just not true.
And for what it's worth, he's still not in the starting lineup which is where I want him to be. And yet you don't see me chanting "Fire the Coach" because of it.
And for what it's worth, he's still not in the starting lineup which is where I want him to be. And yet you don't see me chanting "Fire the Coach" because of it.
We also have very little sample of Christie having a fully healthy roster. Keon caught fire last night, but the main reason he's gotten extended run under Christie has been all the injuries. We'll see what happens going forward, but the closing lineup has stayed the same under Christie, when everyone is available. It hasn't included Keon.
Because he's a good locker room guy that's given you good end of bench production when called upon. And they keep signing all these guys because the back-up C spot is a problem that we haven't fixed in 3 years. If Len were a capable back-up, they wouldn't have to go try and find someone to fill the slot.
Now answer my question instead of avoiding it. Why has Len not been able to take the back-up C job from all these signees if he's that much better than them?
Now answer my question instead of avoiding it. Why has Len not been able to take the back-up C job from all these signees if he's that much better than them?
Um that’s not what I said. You’re combining things I’m saying and saying they’re related to each other.
Fact #1 - Sabonis has played heavy minutes this year
Fact #2 - Brown held back everyone on the bench including Len
Fact #3 - Both Brown & Christie have using Lyles as spacer 5 off bench and Len as #1 traditional big off bench.
Fact #1 is independent of the other 2 in my opinion.
Fact #1 - Sabonis has played heavy minutes this year
Fact #2 - Brown held back everyone on the bench including Len
Fact #3 - Both Brown & Christie have using Lyles as spacer 5 off bench and Len as #1 traditional big off bench.
Fact #1 is independent of the other 2 in my opinion.
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