Welcome Devin Carter

[ShastaKingsFan]

I’d probably look to trade Monk as a part of a larger package for a star forward.

• Fox, Carter, & Ellis would be a reasonably priced backcourt (allowing us to reallocate that cap to be used on the frontcourt)
• Fox, Carter, & Ellis would allow us to have one of the best defensive guard rotations in the league (which I’m sure Christie would love to utilize)
• Fox, Carter, & Ellis gives us good size & length for our guard rotation
• I could see Carter developing offensively to give us a scoring & playmaking punch which would help lessen the blow from losing Monk and not leave Fox as the only option in our guard rotation.

As for which “star” forward, I’d be willing to check back-in on Markkanen since he’ll be eligible for trade again during the 2025 off-season. Monk, Huerter, & picks for Markkanen (with Monk likely going to a 3rd team and that 3rd team sending assets to UTA) seems like a solid deal for all a parties.

We’d have a starting lineup of…

Fox
Carter or Ellis
Murray
Markkanen
Sabonis

…and we’d still have a super sixth man in DeRozan to carry the bench as well as one of Carter or Ellis (whoever isn’t starting), Lyles (if we resign him), etc. That’s a pretty solid group that could do some damage.



I wouldn’t be opposed to keeping Monk and trading one of Carter and Ellis instead, but I really like the idea of having 96 minutes of elite/great guard defense each night (especially when our C is not a great rim protector). And if the star forward were trading for isn’t a good/great defender (I’d say Markkanen is around average), I think having that extra defense in the rotation will be important.

You're a lot more likely to get the forward (4) you want....along with other good pieces, by trading Fox.

It's looking to me like Monk's best spot is lead guard.....and he works really well with a 3&D guard in Keon.

I'm open to the idea of trading Fox, if it means a better fitting lineup and roster. Move Murray back to the 3, bring in a quality good fit at the 4, and move DeRozan to a 6th man role next season

 

[GWD]

he’s got options, he can make it a signature look like Trae or “The Brow” or/and he can use that fat checks he is getting to get a hair job.

Oooooor, the whole team could go "Christie" with their hair in solidarity with their new coach and better play. Similar to what folks do for chemotherapy patients.

Then some of the players would be prohibited from growing their hair back. (You know the ones.)

 

[ESP47]

I think we should see how Carter plays out this year before making any rash decisions on trading away proven players to clear up minutes for him.

 

[The_Jamal]

Fun with 34 minute sample sizes:

Devin Carter's 19.9% TRB would be tied for 8th in the NBA
His 36.5% DRB% would be 1st in the NBA

 

[sactowndog]

Well, depends of a bunch of different factors. Carter first has to hit and then you worry about who and what you trade. Depends who's available.

I also think there's just room for Fox/Monk/DC/Keon to all play big roles.

We don’t agree in that regard. I think Keon and Kev are a good set of 2 guards with different skill sets. I also think Keon and Malik are a good pair as are Carter and Huerter.

 

[sactowndog]

I think we should see how Carter plays out this year before making any rash decisions on trading away proven players to clear up minutes for him.

If you are drafting in the lottery and taking a guard he should be a rotation piece at a minimum.

 

[sactowndog]

I think we should see how Carter plays out this year before making any rash decisions on trading away proven players to clear up minutes for him.

You need to open up minutes for him to develop.

 

[ESP47]

If you are drafting in the lottery and taking a guard he should be a rotation piece at a minimum.

Agreed but there's no guarantees so it's risky to trade one of your best players to carve out minutes for a question mark.

 

[The_Jamal]

We don’t agree in that regard. I think Keon and Kev are a good set of 2 guards with different skill sets. I also think Keon and Malik are a good pair as are Carter and Huerter.

Oh well Kev is gone, for sure, if that's your question. He will not be a long-term Kings piece. Thought you were talking among the actual top 4.

 

[sactowndog]

Oh well Kev is gone, for sure, if that's your question. He will not be a long-term Kings piece. Thought you were talking among the actual top 4.

We shall see. I think Monte is an idiot so he may well try to play Carter at the 2. I see Carter and Malik as similar players who were so athletic they both had people thinking they were a 2. Malik was slotted into that role at Charlotte and failed. Last night was a demonstration of him as a lead guard.

Both are a little undersized at the 2 and have the game sense to play the lead guard role where they are not undersized.

 

[The_Jamal]

We shall see. I think Monte is an idiot so he may well try to play Carter at the 2. I see Carter and Malik as similar players who were so athletic they both had people thinking they were a 2. Malik was slotted into that role at Charlotte and failed. Last night was a demonstration of him as a lead guard.

Both are a little undersized at the 2 and have the game sense to play the lead guard role where they are not undersized.

mhm, sure. Whatever you say.

Not sure how you expect me to respond to you calling Monte an idiot, calling Carter undersized and Monk being a "failure" at the 2, even though that's been his position the last 3 years of his career. And he's had success the last 4 years of his career, including his last year in CHA

 

[twslam07]

You're a lot more likely to get the forward (4) you want....along with other good pieces, by trading Fox.

It's looking to me like Monk's best spot is lead guard.....and he works really well with a 3&D guard in Keon.

I'm open to the idea of trading Fox, if it means a better fitting lineup and roster. Move Murray back to the 3, bring in a quality good fit at the 4, and move DeRozan to a 6th man role next season

Well of course it’s easier to bring back the forward we want if we send out a better asset

The issue is how do we build a top shelf team if we send out Fox? I don’t consider Fox good enough to be the best player on a championship level team, but I think he does have that type of potential if he can tap into the right mentality on a consistent basis (so I can at least always “hope” that we have a shot).

However, if we were to trade Fox for Markkanen (for example), I think that lowers our ceiling as I don’t think Markkanen has that type of potential (nor do I think Sabonis, Monk, etc. have that type of potential).

The only other “star” PFs that I think could be available for Fox are…

1. Kevin Durant (PHX avoids rebuilding since they don’t own a lot of their own picks and extend their timeline with a Fox/Booker duo going forward)
2. Franz Wagner (ORL lands their lead guard who can be an excellent 2nd option behind Banchero while still having a very solid third piece in Suggs)

I think Kevin Durant is good enough to be a #1 on a contender, but at 36 (will be 37 years old at the start of next season), our window will likely be very short, but considering DeRozan is also 35, maybe we just go for it.

I’m not overly confident that Wagner can be the best player on a championship level team but I wouldn’t close the book on him either. Considering his age, I’d at least have “hope” that he could get to that level. And it’s not like he’s super far off…

• .311 USG%
• .573 TS%
• 26.5 PTS per 36 min
• 6.2 AST per 36 min
• 2.3 AST:TO

I’d definitely entertain a Fox for Wagner swap. However, I think we’d have to add more value to Fox to get ORL to bite considering…

• Wagner is 4 years younger than Fox
• Wagner has 5.5 years left on his contract while Fox only has 1.5 years
• If Fox does end up resigning/extending for the max, Wagner will make ~$10 mil less per year than Fox

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Well of course it’s easier to bring back the forward we want if we send out a better asset

The issue is how do we build a top shelf team if we send out Fox? I don’t consider Fox good enough to be the best player on a championship level team, but I think he does have that type of potential if he can tap into the right mentality on a consistent basis (so I can at least always “hope” that we have a shot).

I seriously question whether we can get the forward we want, without sending out a top asset.

Not sure I understand your second statement, in that you don't consider him good enough, but you hope he can change in his 8th season? Sounds like quite a long shot for that to happen.

I'd settle for a team that has dangerous playoff potential and if everything comes together could possibly contend, without having a player who is considered an MVP candidate

 

[twslam07]

I seriously question whether we can get the forward we want, without sending out a top asset.

Not sure I understand your second statement, in that you don't consider him good enough, but you hope he can change in his 8th season? Sounds like quite a long shot for that to happen.

I'd settle for a team that has dangerous playoff potential and if everything comes together could possibly contend, without having a player who is considered an MVP candidate

Sure, of course I hope he can get to that level as the issue seems to be more mental than skill wise. Do I think he will ultimately reach that level? I wouldn’t bet on it if I was forced to choose.

 

[SacTownKid]

Coach said one of Keon/Devin asked out of the game for a breather and I would assume it was Devin given he did the same in the G. Couple that with the near botched dunk and it’s pretty clear he doesn’t have his legs yet. That makes the rebounding that much more impressive. Agreed on the confident trigger, he will definitely be letting it fly if he has space.

Yeah you could almost see him wondering if he had the legs as he waited for the pass haha. It was a terrible pass though. He had to catch it low and bring it to the rim.

 

[sactowndog]

mhm, sure. Whatever you say.

Not sure how you expect me to respond to you calling Monte an idiot, calling Carter undersized and Monk being a "failure" at the 2, even though that's been his position the last 3 years of his career. And he's had success the last 4 years of his career, including his last year in CHA

1) Monk was more successful here as the secondary ball handler when Fox wasn’t on the floor and since moving into the starting role Monk has often been the primary ball handler even when Fox is on the floor. So I would not say his primary position the last 3 years has been the 2.

Monk is and should be a lead guard primary ball handler and generally he is a damn good one.


2) Carter is 6’ 2.25 inches (without shoes) and an 8’ 2” standing reach.

Average for an NBA 2 Guard is 6’ 4.25” without shoes and 8’4.75” standing reach. By what measure is he not undersized at the 2?

https://www.draftexpress.com/average-measurements-by-position/2017/NBA+Draft+Combine/all/60/


3) Monte being an idiot is subjective.

 

[SacTownKid]

Well, depends of a bunch of different factors. Carter first has to hit and then you worry about who and what you trade. Depends who's available.

I also think there's just room for Fox/Monk/DC/Keon to all play big roles.

Also if the Kings make the playoffs you have to see what is more beneficial. This is no different than back in the day when Petrie figured out moving the best passer on the best passing team in J-Will for a better pick and roll scorer in Bibby was a necessary move to beat the teams in front of them. Two things pretty much exist to this day, you have to dominate in pick and roll, in the half court, and you have to be able to D up once the playoffs hit. If you can't do those things it's going to be very tough to get far in the playoffs. And now defense is almost entirely about versatility. This is clearly why a team like the Celtics stacked up on players like Holiday, White, and Pritchard. Monte specifically mentioned that you see players like Carter on these contenders, and you do. The trio of Keon, Carter, and Keegan might be the most important players on the team TBH. We'll see.

 

[SacTownKid]

mhm, sure. Whatever you say.

Not sure how you expect me to respond to you calling Monte an idiot, calling Carter undersized and Monk being a "failure" at the 2, even though that's been his position the last 3 years of his career. And he's had success the last 4 years of his career, including his last year in CHA

Well, Monk kind of took offense to being called a SG prior to the season, saying he's a PG, lol. He might have been joking but for all intents and purposes he is a PG on this team when you consider that Domas is kind of the PG too. Not as much as season 1 but he's still running a lot of playmaking. However, Carter so far has no question been more SG than PG unless he's been the lone playmaker on the floor which mostly happened in garbage time against the Warriors.

 

[sactowndog]

Sure, of course I hope he can get to that level as the issue seems to be more mental than skill wise. Do I think he will ultimately reach that level? I wouldn’t bet on it if I was forced to choose.

As a starting lead guard how much better is Fox than Monk?

Fox is quicker and can get to the rim better.
Fox can score more points
Fox is a better defender.
Fox has more rebounds per 36

Monk runs the pick and roll better
Monk is the better 3 pt shooter
Monk has more assists per 36


I think you can make the case that Fox is better but the gap is not huge and Malik fits better with Domas. Their chemistry is magic.

 

[SacTownKid]

1) Monk was more successful here as the secondary ball handler when Fox wasn’t on the floor and since moving into the starting role Monk has often been the primary ball handler even when Fox is on the floor. So I would not say his primary position the last 3 years has been the 2.

Monk is and should be a lead guard primary ball handler and generally he is a damn good one.


2) Carter is 6’ 2.25 inches (without shoes) and an 8’ 2” standing reach.

Average for an NBA 2 Guard is 6’ 4.25” without shoes and 8’4.75” standing reach. By what measure is he not undersized at the 2?

https://www.draftexpress.com/average-measurements-by-position/2017/NBA+Draft+Combine/all/60/


3) Monte being an idiot is subjective.

A player is only as undersized as they play. Barkley, Rodman, Dumars, just so many examples throughout history just like length is as only as good as it's functionality. Hopefully at some point Christie kicks the tires on more of the guard lineups to see what's doable and against what types of teams.

 

[SacTownKid]

As a starting lead guard how much better is Fox than Monk?

Fox is quicker and can get to the rim better.
Fox can score more points
Fox is a better defender.
Fox has more rebounds per 36

Monk runs the pick and roll better
Monk is the better 3 pt shooter
Monk has more assists per 36
Monk has fewer turnovers per 36

I think you can make the case that Fox is better but the gap is not huge and Malik fits better with Domas. Their chemistry is magic.

Historically that's inaccurate. This year Fox is 2 percentile points behind Monk. However, most years Monk is about 15-30 percentile points behind Fox. Maybe that's opportunity, but it might also be that Monk is a very streaky player. I think the question moving on is whether the Kings can survive not playing their defensive SG combo 30+ minutes a game and what's the best fit. How this year plays out will give Monte clues on how to proceed.

 

[Padrino]

We shall see. I think Monte is an idiot so he may well try to play Carter at the 2. I see Carter and Malik as similar players who were so athletic they both had people thinking they were a 2. Malik was slotted into that role at Charlotte and failed. Last night was a demonstration of him as a lead guard.

Both are a little undersized at the 2 and have the game sense to play the lead guard role where they are not undersized.

"Monte is an idiot."

It sure seems like the vast majority of your posts begin with this conclusion and then work backwards to try and prove it, as if Carter's length and athleticism aren't more important to his defensive potential than his height, and as if Malik hasn't been a very successful 2-guard since he's been with the Kings.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Historically that's inaccurate. This year Fox is 2 percentile points behind Monk. However, most years Monk is about 15-30 percentile points behind Fox. Maybe that's opportunity, but it might also be that Monk is a very streaky player. I think the question moving on is whether the Kings can survive not playing their defensive SG combo 30+ minutes a game and what's the best fit. How this year plays out will give Monte clues on how to proceed.

I wonder if playing lead guard could greatly minimize how streaky he tends to be

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Monk has fewer turnovers per 36

This particular number doesn't feel right. Monk has been less on-ball than Fox for the time that they've been here. Monk's TO% (an estimate of how frequently a player commits a turnover per "play" that the player is responsible for) for his career in Sac is 13.4%, while Fox's is 10.8% over that same time frame. Yes, this year Monk's per-36 turnovers are quite a bit lower (2.4 vs. 3.2) but Monk has been at 2.9 overall since he's been in Sac and Fox has been at 2.8 over that time frame, and the difference in Usage makes Fox's numbers (e.g. TO%) even better.

That squares better with my eye test, which says that Monk is more careless with the ball overall.

 

[Sluggah]

3) Monte being an idiot is subjective.

Is it though?

 

[SacTownKid]

I wonder if playing lead guard could greatly minimize how streaky he tends to be

It might, which is why the games without Fox might be the best thing ever for Monte. He needs to see this. Also, to be completely honest Domas is no question going to make guards look better than they probably are when it comes to pick and roll. He's going to catch and finish passes a lot of bigs are going to fumble and bumble. A player like Holmes isn't going to catch half of those Monk laser beams. If Monk can make up for most of what Fox brings offensively and Monte can get a Kings ransom for Fox in trade prior to having to commit potentially the richest contract in NBA history to him it gives him leeway. This season should have always been intended to see what these pieces look like. Now hopefully the Kings can get into the play in at least because then Monte will have way more info on how to continue on.

 

[sactowndog]

This particular number doesn't feel right. Monk has been less on-ball than Fox for the time that they've been here. Monk's TO% (an estimate of how frequently a player commits a turnover per "play" that the player is responsible for) for his career in Sac is 13.4%, while Fox's is 10.8% over that same time frame. Yes, this year Monk's per-36 turnovers are quite a bit lower (2.4 vs. 3.2) but Monk has been at 2.9 overall since he's been in Sac and Fox has been at 2.8 over that time frame, and the difference in Usage makes Fox's numbers (e.g. TO%) even better.

That squares better with my eye test, which says that Monk is more careless with the ball overall.

Great clarification thank you. It didn’t quite fit with my eye test either. I think your statistic is more accurate.

 

[sactowndog]

Is it though?

Well I’m sure I have a different opinion than others.

 

[sactowndog]

"Monte is an idiot."

It sure seems like the vast majority of your posts begin with this conclusion and then work backwards to try and prove it, as if Carter's length and athleticism aren't more important to his defensive potential than his height, and as if Malik hasn't been a very successful 2-guard since he's been with the Kings.

My posts have stated that point for a while. But there is not “proof” only opinions which is the point of this board.

 

[sactowndog]

"Monte is an idiot."

It sure seems like the vast majority of your posts begin with this conclusion and then work backwards to try and prove it, as if Carter's length and athleticism aren't more important to his defensive potential than his height, and as if Malik hasn't been a very successful 2-guard since he's been with the Kings.

It depends on what position Carter is playing in terms of length and athleticism. To stretch a point he isn’t going to guard centers. (I am not saying you are saying that he could just that things are relative). His length as measured by standing reach is below average even for a 2 guard.

As for Malik I would argue much of his greatest success has been as a lead ball handler.