[Game] 32/82: Kings @ lakers 28 DEC 2024 7:30pm PT/10:30pm ET

Best thing about Los Angeles?


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The starting lineup sucks grow a pair and bench Derozan, Monk is at 17-4-6 shooting 36% from three as a starter so he’s fine starting.
Even if not full proof the numbers say what they say. Since Monk has started Fox has dipped 6 ppg as he's been playing more side man to the pick and roll. Also, it's the defense of Monk. Honestly, this season he's probably the worst defender of the guards. The net ratings have to be considered. This year, out of the main 5 man units just like last year, the only negative one is with Monk starting. Fool me once.... this looks like a pattern. Even if it's just a bad stretch it says what it says 2 years in a row.
 
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Maybe not this season, but long term. People act like Fox is on the last year of his deal when he's not. If the Kings can get momentum, and maybe slide into that play in, there's a reason to see potential. We don't know exactly what Monte and Fox's people talked about, but hearing the Kings have no interest in trading Fox certainly feels like a Monteism for "he's gone", haha.
Yeah, that's what you say when you want to get offers and make people think that you're not going to settle for a value package.

Pat Riley just said the same thing about Butler and you know he'd take an offer if he liked it
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
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They're rightly concerned that if anything leaks out, Fox will go into a negative mood and submarine the team moral deeper than it already is, until a decision and change is made
Also valid.

I think Fox's response of "I took a nap" and "I can't let the game bother me I'm gonna go play with my kids now" would be sending off red flags all around the league though as well.
 
They're rightly concerned that if anything leaks out, Fox will go into a negative mood and submarine the team moral deeper than it already is, until a decision and change is made
A Fox deal in theory should be one of the ones that gets done ASAP. There will be a market considering how rare it is for a star in his prime to actually hit the block. That said, the issue is likely his "people". They'll for sure try and dictate where he goes and it's most likely going to be a team willing to pony up the $$$ without second guessing and that is either already built to contend or is giving him the keys.
 
A Fox deal in theory should be one of the ones that gets done ASAP. There will be a market considering how rare it is for a star in his prime to actually hit the block. That said, the issue is likely his "people". They'll for sure try and dictate where he goes and it's most likely going to be a team willing to pony up the $$$ without second guessing and that is either already built to contend or is giving him the keys.
Would you bet on him being traded by this dead-line?
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
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A Fox deal in theory should be one of the ones that gets done ASAP. There will be a market considering how rare it is for a star in his prime to actually hit the block. That said, the issue is likely his "people". They'll for sure try and dictate where he goes and it's most likely going to be a team willing to pony up the $$$ without second guessing and that is either already built to contend or is giving him the keys.
The Texas teams seem like good fits on personal and professional levels except if Mike Brown pushing him to be angry Fox every game was too much he might not like Pop or Udoka much.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
The starting lineup sucks grow a pair and bench Derozan, Monk is at 17-4-6 shooting 36% from three as a starter so he’s fine starting.
We will not be benching DeRozan.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough how absolutely, definitively, we will not be benching DeRozan.

You simply do not take a 6-time NBA All-Star who has started over 1000 consecutive games (hasn't come off the bench since his rookie year), who is easily the third-best offensive player on your team, and who is in no way, shape, or form in the decline phase of his career, and relegate him to a bench role. YOU DO NOT DO IT.

Not only do you not do it because it would be really, really, really dumb from a winning standpoint, you also don't do it because you don't want to pee off your brand new player who is supposed to be a big part of moving the team forwards and who by no means looks like part of the problem.

Also, do you think the national media had a field day with us when we fired Brown? "Oh, they didn't do it the RIGHT way!" Just imagine the amount of media who would relish the opportunity to call us dumbfaced stupidheads over benching DeRozan at this juncture - and they'd be right, because only a dumbfaced stupidhead would bench DeRozan right now.
 
Would you bet on him being traded by this dead-line?
I don't know. I can say I don't think past draft night things will be the same. I really don't like the idea of kind of letting a major thing like that be determined by short term markers but if the Kings can get into the play in area and Doug can help turn this around I don't think so. If it continues to tank then yes. It's time. If Monte goes the other route and moves youth/picks for a Fox build again at this point I can't see any justification. Even if they ripped off 10 in a row. It's all too up in the air at the moment. This would simply be a case that Fox and Domas wasn't enough. Maybe shift gears and build around Domas at that point. We already know any team with Domas is going to likely have to have all world defensive talent guarding the perimeter to even have a chance. The Kings already have a great start built in with Keon, Keegan, and Carter. Keep going. Add another player capable of carrying the offensive load and that's all you can really do TBH.
 
We will not be benching DeRozan.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough how absolutely, definitively, we will not be benching DeRozan.

You simply do not take a 6-time NBA All-Star who has started over 1000 consecutive games (hasn't come off the bench since his rookie year), who is easily the third-best offensive player on your team, and who is in no way, shape, or form in the decline phase of his career, and relegate him to a bench role. YOU DO NOT DO IT.

Not only do you not do it because it would be really, really, really dumb from a winning standpoint, you also don't do it because you don't want to pee off your brand new player who is supposed to be a big part of moving the team forwards and who by no means looks like part of the problem.

Also, do you think the national media had a field day with us when we fired Brown? "Oh, they didn't do it the RIGHT way!" Just imagine the amount of media who would relish the opportunity to call us dumbfaced stupidheads over benching DeRozan at this juncture - and they'd be right, because only a dumbfaced stupidhead would bench DeRozan right now.
are you open to trading him for lesser talent but theoretical better fits? Say role playing defenders or shooters? I love watching him play and was in favor of acquiring him but I’m open to more possibilities than I thought I would have been at this point in the season
 
Ugh i just can’t believe we’re at this point. wtf is going on man
The Kings ignoring an entire half of the floor is showing. They simply aren't living up to the talent level on paper, when that happens, you have find answers to your most pressing needs. Even to this day, if you can somewhat defend capably you can gain ground. This is why teams like the Grizzlies haven't cratered most likely even when they've been missing talent.
 
he actually does cut pretty well and he use to get a basket or two on those from Sabonis every game. Don’t know why he doesn’t get the same looks this year but some of it is he doesn’t always go hard on them. Room for improvement for sure
Yea it’s only year 3. I’m not ready to just assume the guy forgot how to play. It’s been a crap, strange season all around.
 
It’s wild watching teams like Orlando be completely decimated by injuries, and yet they continue to win games. I guess defense is important or whatever.
Of course it's important. The 22/23 team had a great offensive year and they won 48 games in a down west season.

It's really tough to win over 50 games without consistent effective defense, possibly with the exception of having a legit MVP caliber player. The 2000-04 Kings won 55, 61, 59, and 55 games, without an MVP candidate. That's how balanced and solid those teams were on both sides of the court
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
are you open to trading him for lesser talent but theoretical better fits? Say role playing defenders or shooters? I love watching him play and was in favor of acquiring him but I’m open to more possibilities than I thought I would have been at this point in the season
That's really not my first or second option. I've always looked a bit sideways at teams that sign a player as a free agent only to trade him at the first opportunity. It's one thing if the player is obviously not working out or there are personality clashes or the player is trying to leave on purpose (then I look sideways at the player) but I just don't see that being the case here.

Is DDR a great defender? No. We knew that signing him. The plan from the front office wasn't to sign DeRozan and suddenly become a top-5 defensive team. The idea was to supercharge our offense by having 1) a guy who is amazing in the midrange and can get off any shot at any time, and 2) to pick up another high-gravity player to give our other players more open three opportunities. #1 has worked out as hoped. #2 has not, but it's not because the opportunities aren't there, it's because our entire team has seemingly forgotten how to hit a three.

On the defensive end, we are obviously having significant issues stopping the three ball - but we had those before DDR showed up, too. It's not obvious to me that DDR is contributing to those issues any more than any other player, but those can be hard things to see and I'm not going to claim to be good at seeing them all the time. The scheme itself, however, is obviously not working, and that's not DDR's fault.

So in my eyes, we wanted him, we got him, he's exactly the player we hoped to be getting, and he's not responsible for our woes. Shipping him off - especially for lesser talent - that, I think, would fit quite neatly under the ever-present "KANGZ" label. So, no, depending on what "open to" means, I'm not really open to that. I don't really think this team is fixed by bringing in roleplayers at the expense of front-line talent. I think it's fixed by figuring out a defensive scheme that works (so, yes, though it doesn't usually happen mid-season I'd be open to demoting Loucks so we can try something else), getting our players to hit open threes (no idea how to make that happen outside of devoting more practice time to shooting drills), and reducing the number of possessions where we just iso or weave with no set action being run. And if that means that Doug has to have a set of at least five actions that we can start and then develop based on how the defense reacts, and he has to call them out every time we go down the floor, great, that could help. This crap where we bog down because the other team goes on a run and they can set their D, so we can't push it down their throat and we don't know what else to do really has to stop. But none of that is on DeRozan, and I don't see how giving up on him this early helps us.
 
That's really not my first or second option. I've always looked a bit sideways at teams that sign a player as a free agent only to trade him at the first opportunity. It's one thing if the player is obviously not working out or there are personality clashes or the player is trying to leave on purpose (then I look sideways at the player) but I just don't see that being the case here.

Is DDR a great defender? No. We knew that signing him. The plan from the front office wasn't to sign DeRozan and suddenly become a top-5 defensive team. The idea was to supercharge our offense by having 1) a guy who is amazing in the midrange and can get off any shot at any time, and 2) to pick up another high-gravity player to give our other players more open three opportunities. #1 has worked out as hoped. #2 has not, but it's not because the opportunities aren't there, it's because our entire team has seemingly forgotten how to hit a three.

On the defensive end, we are obviously having significant issues stopping the three ball - but we had those before DDR showed up, too. It's not obvious to me that DDR is contributing to those issues any more than any other player, but those can be hard things to see and I'm not going to claim to be good at seeing them all the time. The scheme itself, however, is obviously not working, and that's not DDR's fault.

So in my eyes, we wanted him, we got him, he's exactly the player we hoped to be getting, and he's not responsible for our woes. Shipping him off - especially for lesser talent - that, I think, would fit quite neatly under the ever-present "KANGZ" label. So, no, depending on what "open to" means, I'm not really open to that. I don't really think this team is fixed by bringing in roleplayers at the expense of front-line talent. I think it's fixed by figuring out a defensive scheme that works (so, yes, though it doesn't usually happen mid-season I'd be open to demoting Loucks so we can try something else), getting our players to hit open threes (no idea how to make that happen outside of devoting more practice time to shooting drills), and reducing the number of possessions where we just iso or weave with no set action being run. And if that means that Doug has to have a set of at least five actions that we can start and then develop based on how the defense reacts, and he has to call them out every time we go down the floor, great, that could help. This crap where we bog down because the other team goes on a run and they can set their D, so we can't push it down their throat and we don't know what else to do really has to stop. But none of that is on DeRozan, and I don't see how giving up on him this early helps us.
I’ve been wondering if it makes sense to send him to the bench. A faster starting unit might help recapture some of the high octane offense, and making him our sixth man could allow a second unit to slow the offense and focus on sets that maximize his offense

prob not a huge thing to solve our problems but I think it’s at least worth considering
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
I’ve been wondering if it makes sense to send him to the bench. A faster starting unit might help recapture some of the high octane offense, and making him our sixth man could allow a second unit to slow the offense and focus on sets that maximize his offense

prob not a huge thing to solve our problems but I think it’s at least worth considering
Apparently my "dumbface stupidhead" comment hasn't gone as viral as I thought? ;)
 
I mean, we've had the right answer all along; Keon Ellis with the starters. Monk was a good lever to push, just because of how desperate things got, but Christie isn't beholden to keep Mike's starting 5. Again, this only helps everyone; staggers Monk with the starting 5 more and he gets bigger USG with the bench units and Keon's defense is where it needs to be; guarding the best players on the other side for 30+ MPG.
 
Apparently my "dumbface stupidhead" comment hasn't gone as viral as I thought? ;)
I hadn’t seen it until just now but I don’t think media criticism is legit reason to make moves, and also think it’s speculative whether DDR would be upset by it if he understands the reasons behind it, staff works him to maintain starter minutes, and he still closes games

As I said idk if it would work, but we’re in a free fall and a six game losing streak. Nothing should be off the table, but I ultimately agree it’s not gonna solve our problems, esp stuff like our guys forgetting how to shoot. More just something I’ve been wondering out about
 
Also, it's the defense of Monk. Honestly, this season he's probably the worst defender of the guards. The net ratings have to be considered.
If you are considering defensive ratings, Monk comes in at 113.6 in the last twelve games, that is, since he began to start. Among rotation guards, that is behind Ellis (105.5) and Huerter (109.0). That is a little behind Sabonis (112) and one of the team's prime defenders, Keegan Murray (112.3). But it is also better than DeRozan (114.5) and Fox (115.43).

Huerter, Ellis, and Monk--in that order--all have similar defensive rebounding numbers per 36 minutes, between 4.2 and 4.0. Fox is next at 3.7 (minimum 100 minutes). No surprise, but Ellis has been the best on the team at steals per 36 minutes in the past 12 games, at 2.7, with Fox next at 1.7. Monk is way down on the list at .7, the same as Murray. Ellis also leads in blocks (1.4) although Isaac Jones has 2.2 per 36 minutes and has played nearly 100 minutes. Fox and Monk both have .7 blocks.

OK, net ratings among guards for the full season. Keon Ellis again leads the entire team at a phenomenal 9.1. Monk is next among guards at 1.4, Fox comes in at 0.0, and Huerter at -.07.

If you want to improve the team, start Keon Ellis, but there is no reason to trade Malik Monk. I say this as a dedicated fan of Mr. Monk. As Sabonis said before free agency last summer, "We can't lose him. We can't." He ought to know.
 
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If you are considering defensive ratings, Monk comes in at 113.6 in the last twelve games, that is, since he began to start. Among rotation guards, that is behind Ellis (105.5) and Huerter (109.0). That is a little behind Sabonis (112) and one of the team's prime defenders, Keegan Murray (112.3). But it is also better than DeRozan (114.5) and Fox (115.43).

Huerter, Ellis, and Monk--in that order--all have similar defensive rebounding numbers per 36 minutes, between 4.2 and 4.0. Fox is next at 3.7 (minimum 100 minutes). No surprise, but Ellis has been the best on the team at steals per 36 minutes in the past 12 games, at 2.7, with Fox next at 1.7. Monk is way down on the list at .7, the same as Murray. Ellis also leads in blocks (1.4) although Isaac Jones has 2.2 per 36 minutes and has played nearly 100 minutes. Fox and Monk both have .7 blocks.

OK, net ratings among guards. Keon Ellis again leads the entire team at a phenomenal 9.1. Monk is next among guards at 1.4, Fox comes in at 0.0, and Huerter at -.07.

If you want to improve the team, start Keon Ellis, but there is no reason to trade Malik Monk. I say this as a dedicated fan of Mr. Monk. As Sabonis said before free agency last summer, "We can't lose him. We can't." He ought to know.
All the numbers seem to line up. I'm still not a big proponent of individual net ratings since the game isn't played individually. By those stats KAT has been one of the greatest defenders to ever grace the court, haha. They can be taken into account in some ways I guess. 5 man net ratings relate to a real life situation and they show for 2 seasons, Monk at SG is in the minus with the starters.
 
Our worry about Keon starting was his shooting and he’s somehow our best shooter and still not getting minutes

I don't know why anyone would worry about Keon's shooting. He's been a good shooter in college, the G league, and the NBA. He's never had a bad % for any season or long stretch. He currently has the best % on the team from 3 at 42.6%. He takes good open shots, he doesn't force bad ones.

The literal definition of a 3&D guard
 
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