Monte McNair
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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good move, low risk (no FRP included) - high reward
concerns about fit with fox, yes
concerns about defence, well 70% of our roster doesn't play it
I haven't read the forum much in the last two seasons because we've been good (okay, last season could be considered decent), so the criticisms of monte are a bit strange to me. did some people really expect that we would constantly be in the top 6 after the 2022/23 season?
Let me remind you, we play in the western conference where houston was below every line...
So, better a move like this with derozan than ingram, who is injury prone , or getting robbed by ainge.
concerns about fit with fox, yes
concerns about defence, well 70% of our roster doesn't play it
I haven't read the forum much in the last two seasons because we've been good (okay, last season could be considered decent), so the criticisms of monte are a bit strange to me. did some people really expect that we would constantly be in the top 6 after the 2022/23 season?
Let me remind you, we play in the western conference where houston was below every line...
So, better a move like this with derozan than ingram, who is injury prone , or getting robbed by ainge.
I said I liked the trade. It gives us a go to scoring option when Fox is off the floor and is a better fit with Keegan and Keon. I think DeRozen is a clear and substantial upgrade over Barnes.
But let’s not pretend this trade doesn’t have some concerns. In general RealGM hates this trade and is concerned about:
1) fit between Fox, DeRozan and Sabonis all of whom like to operate at the elbow. Now maybe all 3 improve as 3 point shooters but kind of late in the game.
2) that unprotected 31 pick swap to get SA to play along could look really ugly (and a lot like the unprotected Vlade pick) in a few years. We could easily be on a down swing and Spurs on an upswing.
3) Kings are still smallish across the front line when compared with Houston and OKC.
But let’s not pretend this trade doesn’t have some concerns. In general RealGM hates this trade and is concerned about:
1) fit between Fox, DeRozan and Sabonis all of whom like to operate at the elbow. Now maybe all 3 improve as 3 point shooters but kind of late in the game.
2) that unprotected 31 pick swap to get SA to play along could look really ugly (and a lot like the unprotected Vlade pick) in a few years. We could easily be on a down swing and Spurs on an upswing.
3) Kings are still smallish across the front line when compared with Houston and OKC.
I know you asked sactowndog, but here's my take on the current roster and what work could still be done. As of today we have:
C Sabonis/Len
PF Murray/Lyles/McDaniels
SF DeRozan
SG Ellis/Huerter/Jones/Carter
PG Fox/Monk
This is assuming that DeRozan will start at SF vs SG as he has for the last few seasons. Huerter is also a 2/3 and Ellis & Monk have played both guard spots. But this is how I'm slotting things.
As it stands, the Kings are a bit shorthanded in terms of forwards and they need one more bench big.
C Sabonis/Len
PF Murray/Lyles/McDaniels
SF DeRozan
SG Ellis/Huerter/Jones/Carter
PG Fox/Monk
This is assuming that DeRozan will start at SF vs SG as he has for the last few seasons. Huerter is also a 2/3 and Ellis & Monk have played both guard spots. But this is how I'm slotting things.
As it stands, the Kings are a bit shorthanded in terms of forwards and they need one more bench big.
Someone posted concern about DDR’s age. It’s a legitimate concern. The player we shipped out is only 2 years younger, half as productive give or take and slightly cheaper (by NBA) standards. Both players are durable, average defenders. The deal is essentially a 2 year, with a third year option of some sort (the details were unavailable). I think this deal is a standing O. Better veteran player for inconsequential money. Similar timeline to the veteran being moved. I feel pretty confident that DDR will be an impact player for the next two years. Having a reliable scorer to allow Keegan to develop without having to be the third leg of a tripod is pretty huge. I suspect those who criticize this move will likely find fault with anything the organization does.
here is Quinn’s article on the trade. Pretty much echo’s comments on RealGM…
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...ings-swing-and-miss-on-all-star-addition/amp/
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...ings-swing-and-miss-on-all-star-addition/amp/
Kessler isn't on the roster anymore and you left out Jordan McLaughlin. Considering how little Kessler played the last two years, I don't think he'll be back. I'm sure there will be more changes before the season starts but as of today I have the depth chart looking like this:
Sabonis / Len / ??
Murray / Lyles / ??
DeRozan / Huerter / McDaniels
Ellis / Carter / Jones
Fox / Monk / McLaughlin
Two-Ways: Isaiah Crawford (SF) and Isaac Jones (PF / C)
Huerter isn't really a 3 but that's where he fits best for now and if he's not traded that's where I expect him to get most of his minutes. McDaniels' best position is probably SF but he fits at either forward spot. The guard and wing depth is fine (could use another wing defender though) and it looks like we need a couple of big guys.
Sabonis / Len / ??
Murray / Lyles / ??
DeRozan / Huerter / McDaniels
Ellis / Carter / Jones
Fox / Monk / McLaughlin
Two-Ways: Isaiah Crawford (SF) and Isaac Jones (PF / C)
Huerter isn't really a 3 but that's where he fits best for now and if he's not traded that's where I expect him to get most of his minutes. McDaniels' best position is probably SF but he fits at either forward spot. The guard and wing depth is fine (could use another wing defender though) and it looks like we need a couple of big guys.
sactowndog said in his post that he thinks the Kings will likely resign Kessler Edwards.
For now I think McLaughlin is just a camp signing. Barring other trades and/or signings I think he's likely competing with Mason Jones and Jordan Ford for that last guard spot.
But I think we can all agree that the Kings are a bit shorthanded at the 4/5.
Barring any other moves I think you're right that Huerter is the backup SF, but playing 12 minutes a night behind DeMar is likely only going to hurt his trade value further. I'd like to see him moved this off-season for more wing/big depth if the right move is out there.
For now I think McLaughlin is just a camp signing. Barring other trades and/or signings I think he's likely competing with Mason Jones and Jordan Ford for that last guard spot.
But I think we can all agree that the Kings are a bit shorthanded at the 4/5.
Barring any other moves I think you're right that Huerter is the backup SF, but playing 12 minutes a night behind DeMar is likely only going to hurt his trade value further. I'd like to see him moved this off-season for more wing/big depth if the right move is out there.
Seven years is an absolute eternity in the NBA. To try to predict who a 2031 pick swap will benefit is a fools errand. In 2017, the top 5 of the West were the Warriors, Spurs, Rockets, Clippers, Jazz. There is one person on the Kings (players, coaches, front office) who was on the team in 2017 and 2024- Fox. The only 2017 Kings still even in the NBA are Fox, Buddy, Bogie, and Temple. Let that sink in. Things in the NBA rarely go linearly or to plan. 7 years is an NBA generation.
Who is to say 2031 Spurs are a powerhouse?. What if Wemby gets hurt like Greg Oden? What if the Spurs don’t build around him right? What happens when Pop is gone? What if he demands a trade? What if the league figures him out and his ceiling is top 20 player, not MVP?
why are the 2031 kings certainly bad? Aren’t Fox and Domas still late prime? Isn’t Keegan in his prime? Isn’t there a good chance we have significantly pivoted from this core to something that could be better or worse?
This board is willing to trade 28 and 30 draft picks for a guy like Ingram, but not a 31 swap for DDR. Yes a swap has value, but let’s put in to perspective how much more speculative the value of a 7 years out swap is, then trading an actual pick.
Who is to say 2031 Spurs are a powerhouse?. What if Wemby gets hurt like Greg Oden? What if the Spurs don’t build around him right? What happens when Pop is gone? What if he demands a trade? What if the league figures him out and his ceiling is top 20 player, not MVP?
why are the 2031 kings certainly bad? Aren’t Fox and Domas still late prime? Isn’t Keegan in his prime? Isn’t there a good chance we have significantly pivoted from this core to something that could be better or worse?
This board is willing to trade 28 and 30 draft picks for a guy like Ingram, but not a 31 swap for DDR. Yes a swap has value, but let’s put in to perspective how much more speculative the value of a 7 years out swap is, then trading an actual pick.
Yeah I get that but if we're listing the current depth chart, why put a guy who Monte waived his rights to on there and leave out a guy who signed a contract yesterday? Even if McLaughlin doesn't make the final roster, I think that spot goes to a backup PG regardless.
The other notes I have on where guys slot in to the depth chart are about Devin Carter and Jalen McDaniels...
Devin Carter is likely already ahead of Colby Jones as the backup SG (Jones is on a 4 year contract but he was a second round pick and hasn't cracked the regular rotation yet and Carter was taken #13 overall). Jalen McDaniels is really more of a tall wing than a PF. He shot the ball terribly last season but in his 4 years before that disaster of a shooting performance (on a depleted and tanking Toronto team that somehow managed to rotate through 30 different players in a year) he had taken 469 threes and made 34.5% of them. I don't have high hopes for him, but there could be some hidden value there.
The other notes I have on where guys slot in to the depth chart are about Devin Carter and Jalen McDaniels...
Devin Carter is likely already ahead of Colby Jones as the backup SG (Jones is on a 4 year contract but he was a second round pick and hasn't cracked the regular rotation yet and Carter was taken #13 overall). Jalen McDaniels is really more of a tall wing than a PF. He shot the ball terribly last season but in his 4 years before that disaster of a shooting performance (on a depleted and tanking Toronto team that somehow managed to rotate through 30 different players in a year) he had taken 469 threes and made 34.5% of them. I don't have high hopes for him, but there could be some hidden value there.
The time is now. Put the best team possible around Fox and Sabonis, grab some popcorn and see what happens. It’s OK to get excited about the Kings.
2031 swap keeps alive the ability to trade 2028 and 2030 picks to grab one more dude. It doesn’t have to happen now, but it sure makes things interesting.
Lets Go Kings!!!!
2031 swap keeps alive the ability to trade 2028 and 2030 picks to grab one more dude. It doesn’t have to happen now, but it sure makes things interesting.
Lets Go Kings!!!!
Eh. Quinn's argument boils down to "DeRozan is old and the fit isn't perfect and the Kings look impatient." But if the Kings core has time, as Quinn says, a three-year commitment with the third only partially guaranteed is hardly going to set them back, particularly since Barnes' deal also stretches on for another two seasons at significantly less consistent offensive production. The Kings needed to get better, and they did. If there was a more optimal way to improve the team, McNair surely would have pursued those trades. Markkanen likely isn't headed out of Utah, and even if he was, it's doubtful the Kings could have convinced Ainge to accept less than a deal that included Keegan. And Ingram comes with tons of injury risk and a looming max extension that he very likely isn't worth. DeRozan is an effective short-term pivot that cost the Kings very little and doesn't lock them into a lengthy and overly expensive financial commitment.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...indiana-domantas-sabonis-heads-to-sacramento/
Well... he had the Haliburton / Sabonis trade as a clear win for the Pacers but was a little more balanced in his analysis than most at the time. He's since pivoted and declared it one of the best win-win trades in NBA history. The bit about Duarte and Haliburton potentially forming one of the best backcourt duo's in the league has not aged well. Like pretty much everyone else he looked at shooting splits and declared Haliburton the better player to build around.
Since that trade though Fox has won Clutch Player of the Year, developed into a top 10 scorer in the league, led the league in steals per game, and even outshot Tyrese from three this past season. Domas has developed into an All-NBA center and added elite playmaking to his rebounding and post-scoring toolbox. In retrospect, that was an A+ trade for Sacramento. Monte traded a starting guard on a bad team and ended up with two All-NBA players on a playoff team.
In his article about the DeRozan trade he makes no mention of the Kings adding Carter (a clear defensive upgrade from last year's bench guard rotation) nor does he seem to have noticed the defensive improvements Mike Brown got out of this squad when Ellis became the starting SG. That defensive improvement is why adding a guy like DeRozan makes sense. The analytic model may predict steep falloff after age 35 for the average NBA player but the model needs to be adjusted based on his current performance level.
I also don't get all this euphoria over San Antonio adding one first round draft pick and two swap rights in the 2030's as if it's some miracle of tradesmanship. Most first round picks don't pan out. That's why stock-piling a bunch of them makes sense but Rob Dillingham at 8th overall is likely worth more than the one pick Minnesota gave up to get him and DeRozan over the next three years is likely to outperform whoever San Antonio gets in 2031 if we do end up swapping picks with them. If absorbing contracts for draft picks were an automatic ticket to future success we'd have a lot less fired GM's in the league.
Well... he had the Haliburton / Sabonis trade as a clear win for the Pacers but was a little more balanced in his analysis than most at the time. He's since pivoted and declared it one of the best win-win trades in NBA history. The bit about Duarte and Haliburton potentially forming one of the best backcourt duo's in the league has not aged well. Like pretty much everyone else he looked at shooting splits and declared Haliburton the better player to build around.
Since that trade though Fox has won Clutch Player of the Year, developed into a top 10 scorer in the league, led the league in steals per game, and even outshot Tyrese from three this past season. Domas has developed into an All-NBA center and added elite playmaking to his rebounding and post-scoring toolbox. In retrospect, that was an A+ trade for Sacramento. Monte traded a starting guard on a bad team and ended up with two All-NBA players on a playoff team.
In his article about the DeRozan trade he makes no mention of the Kings adding Carter (a clear defensive upgrade from last year's bench guard rotation) nor does he seem to have noticed the defensive improvements Mike Brown got out of this squad when Ellis became the starting SG. That defensive improvement is why adding a guy like DeRozan makes sense. The analytic model may predict steep falloff after age 35 for the average NBA player but the model needs to be adjusted based on his current performance level.
I also don't get all this euphoria over San Antonio adding one first round draft pick and two swap rights in the 2030's as if it's some miracle of tradesmanship. Most first round picks don't pan out. That's why stock-piling a bunch of them makes sense but Rob Dillingham at 8th overall is likely worth more than the one pick Minnesota gave up to get him and DeRozan over the next three years is likely to outperform whoever San Antonio gets in 2031 if we do end up swapping picks with them. If absorbing contracts for draft picks were an automatic ticket to future success we'd have a lot less fired GM's in the league.