Draft Day!

[sactowndog]

I love this pick, the only thing that sucks is one of Monk, Carter or Keon will not be in the closing lineup.

at this point you need to move KVon, Davion and probably Sasha.

Fox Elllis
Carter Monk
Keegan Barnes
_______ Lyles
Sabonis Goga

this is my draft night guess on the rotation for next year. I’m sure I’ll chance my mind ten times

Standing Reach matters as we have see with HB. Like HB, Carter has a good wingspan but poor standing reach. If only one of Monk, Keon, Carter, Fox are not in the closing line-up we will be 3-4 inches below average in length at both the 2 and 3.

Ellis: 8’ 6”
Huerter: 8’ 5.5”
Fox: 8’ 4”
Monk: 8’ 3”
Carter: 8’ 2”
Mitchell 8’ 0.5

Carter at the two is very similar pick to Davion at the point. A high energy older smaller guard who is 3-4” negative standing reach for his position. You would think Monte learned but he just repeated the same pick.

 

[ESP47]

He's also got a mid-range fadeaway that he almost likes taking. I like the fit for Dunn in Phoenix -- he'll get minutes there -- and I especially hate that the three defensive studs I wanted the most near the end of the first round (Dunn, Missi, and Holmes) all ended up on our Western conference rivals.

Oops I didn't realize he got traded to Phoenix. I thought he was going to be cutting for Jokic. Sounds like he'll be playing more of the Andre Roberson role in Phoenix.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Standing Reach matters as we have see with HB. Like HB, Carter has a good wingspan but poor standing reach. If only one of Monk, Keon, Carter, Fox are not in the closing line-up we will be 3-4 inches below average in length at both the 2 and 3.

Ellis: 8’ 6”
Huerter: 8’ 5.5”
Fox: 8’ 4”
Monk: 8’ 3”
Carter: 8’ 2”
Mitchell 8’ 0.5

Carter at the two is very similar pick to Davion at the point. A high energy older smaller guard who is 3-4” negative standing reach for his position. You would think Monte learned but he just repeated the same pick.

Who was your pick at 13 tonight?

 

[OptimusRhyme]

a few players that Carters taller then (without shoes on) according to the draft combine - (Fox, Marcus Smart, Donovan Mitchell, GP2, D'anthony Melton)
Fret not Kings fans.

 

[sactowndog]

Who was your pick at 13 tonight?

Probably Knect, Ware or da Silva..

 

[Tetsujin]

that or they were known to really love Josh’s game, maybe they figure they can re-create what he brought in a reserve role.

Also with like 200% less negative press

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Probably Knect, Ware or da Silva..

You only get to pick one guy, like they had to

 

[Tetsujin]

Standing Reach matters as we have see with HB. Like HB, Carter has a good wingspan but poor standing reach. If only one of Monk, Keon, Carter, Fox are not in the closing line-up we will be 3-4 inches below average in length at both the 2 and 3.

Ellis: 8’ 6”
Huerter: 8’ 5.5”
Fox: 8’ 4”
Monk: 8’ 3”
Carter: 8’ 2”
Mitchell 8’ 0.5

Carter at the two is very similar pick to Davion at the point. A high energy older smaller guard who is 3-4” negative standing reach for his position. You would think Monte learned but he just repeated the same pick.

Standing reach probably doesn’t matter as much when the dude was literally the most athletic guy at the combine. He was pretty much the best non-big shot blocker in college basketball last season while also averaging two steals a game. For all of Davion’s elite lateral agility, he’s nowhere near the quick twitch exploder that Carter is, who’s similar to Malik in that regard.

 

[hrdboild]

Standing Reach matters as we have see with HB. Like HB, Carter has a good wingspan but poor standing reach. If only one of Monk, Keon, Carter, Fox are not in the closing line-up we will be 3-4 inches below average in length at both the 2 and 3.

Ellis: 8’ 6”
Huerter: 8’ 5.5”
Fox: 8’ 4”
Monk: 8’ 3”
Carter: 8’ 2”
Mitchell 8’ 0.5

Carter at the two is very similar pick to Davion at the point. A high energy older smaller guard who is 3-4” negative standing reach for his position. You would think Monte learned but he just repeated the same pick.

Doesn't Carter's 42" vertical mostly negate that 3-4" of standing reach disadvantage? He's still getting up there to block shots and grab rebounds that most guards can't get to.

Simplifying basketball down to a game of positional height equivalence strikes me as a particularly fool-hardy argument which doesn't even warrant much response but I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're just using this as a short-hand for defensive versatility. Height does have some impact on defense in basketball -- perhaps even a lot of impact -- but so do a lot of other attributes: length, lateral quickness, instincts, knowledge of opponent tendencies, reaction time, and aggression among them. I will take a team of short guys any day of the week who all play defense like their hair is on fire over tall guys with questionable motors. You run the risk here of simplifying a thing so much as to render it meaningless.

I'm also going to dig up the ghost of Sacramento Kings past and remind you that Fox's biggest elite tool used to be speed. With this Devin Carter pick, Monte just drafted another running mate who can keep up with him in the open floor. It wasn't just a downtick in shooting percentage which caused our offensive backslide this past season, it was also the loss of the fastbreak game which used to represent a significant chunk of our offense. Fox was playing on a bad ankle most of the year and settling for long jumpers more than he ever has. Several of us were bemoaning the notable loss of Terence Davis' speed and fearless shot hunting in the second unit this year as well. It could be that in Devin Carter we got some of that identity back combined with the defensive mentality of a Davion Mitchell but in a more switch-friendly wing-sized body type.

Part of team building is whittling down a roster into the best possible 8-9 man playoff rotation. Combining attributes that we used to have spread out over 2 or 3 different players into one do-it-all combo guard helps us to get one step closer to that perfect playoff rotation. Maybe you were among the group who wanted to see us use the pick to bring in a proven vet instead but Devin Carter's rookie contract is only going to be $22 million total spread over 4 years for an average annual cap hit of $5.5 million. If he's a valuable rotation player for the majority of that contract, Monte just bought a lot of roster flexibility he wouldn't have by trading the pick for a veteran.

 

[kingsfan101]

Not Keon. You trade Davion, Huerter, and Duarte (along with HB) to balance things out. Keon and Carter are EXACTLY the guards you want next to Fox & Monk.

Sure, but for what? What are you getting in return?

It's no secret that some of these folks have been on the block for a while. In fact, last offseason, Barnes was a FA, and we had the choice of signing someone else. We didn't/couldn't, since obviously we couldn't find anyone.

The trade to balance the roster needs to send out some of these guards and instead get someone who is an improvement over Barnes. Which GMs are lining up to accept some combination of the above players, and what players do you think you can get? If the pot needs to be sweetened by throwing in a prospect like Keon/Colby/pick, then that's effectively a cost that's added to the Devin pick.

 

[SacTownKid]

Standing reach probably doesn’t matter as much when the dude was literally the most athletic guy at the combine. He was pretty much the best non-big shot blocker in college basketball last season while also averaging two steals a game. For all of Davion’s elite lateral agility, he’s nowhere near the quick twitch exploder that Carter is, who’s similar to Malik in that regard.

And again, he can jump, but I think he pulled a little of the old cheater thing on the standing reach bit, haha.

 

[NewArena]

Monte reminding me that the offseason doesn’t end tonight

https://twitter.com/statuses/1806180422675792344

 

[SacTownKid]

Standing Reach matters as we have see with HB. Like HB, Carter has a good wingspan but poor standing reach. If only one of Monk, Keon, Carter, Fox are not in the closing line-up we will be 3-4 inches below average in length at both the 2 and 3.

Ellis: 8’ 6”
Huerter: 8’ 5.5”
Fox: 8’ 4”
Monk: 8’ 3”
Carter: 8’ 2”
Mitchell 8’ 0.5

Carter at the two is very similar pick to Davion at the point. A high energy older smaller guard who is 3-4” negative standing reach for his position. You would think Monte learned but he just repeated the same pick.

Then I guess Jae Crowder is too. Measurements not too far off of Carters and he's a few inches taller.

 

[SacTownKid]

Sure, but for what? What are you getting in return?

It's no secret that some of these folks have been on the block for a while. In fact, last offseason, Barnes was a FA, and we had the choice of signing someone else. We didn't/couldn't, since obviously we couldn't find anyone.

The trade to balance the roster needs to send out some of these guards and instead get someone who is an improvement over Barnes. Which GMs are lining up to accept some combination of the above players, and what players do you think you can get? If the pot needs to be sweetened by throwing in a prospect like Keon/Colby/pick, then that's effectively a cost that's added to the Devin pick.

The great thing is now the Kings lucked into prime potential and need. In a trade before you had to prioritize talent to some degree. Monte and co. didn't expect a talent like Carter to be there, he was, now things might change and that includes what you might be willing to settle for in a trade. Everybody knows Monte has been trying to deal Huerter and Barnes. Getting a talent like Carter when you really shouldn't have even had a draft pick is a game changer potentially and that change might include what you look for in return.

 

[Caccia]

Couple interesting guys with Smith, Furphy and Dunn here at the end of the first. Filipowski still there too

Surprising that Filipowski was never selected. He made opponents miserable more often than not. Perhaps NBA scouts do not believe his game will translate?

 

[kingsfan101]

The great thing is now the Kings lucked into prime potential and need. In a trade before you had to prioritize talent to some degree. Monte and co. didn't expect a talent like Carter to be there, he was, now things might change and that includes what you might be willing to settle for in a trade. Everybody knows Monte has been trying to deal Huerter and Barnes. Getting a talent like Carter when you really shouldn't have even had a draft pick is a game changer potentially and that change might include what you look for in return.

Adding Carter, if Monte thought he was the BPA was absolutely the right move (unless the difference between him and a wing was relatively small). So, not questioning the pick itself. Just pointing out that the assumption that trade will balance out the roster is not easy to pull off, and if past performance is any guide, might not happen at all.

Contrary to your argument though, I think this selection makes it a little tougher for Monte to pull off a trade. We can't settle in a trade. Our requirement was, and remains finding an improved replacement for Banes. A trade that doesn't achieve this, doesn't make sense for us.

Teams know that now we are even more desperate for it, and might demand higher returns. If we refuse to blink, we will need to give significant minutes to Kevin and hope he can rediscover his shot. If that happens, great. Helps us win short term, and increases his value, giving us a long term win too. However, if he struggles, we probably lose some more games, get poor returns, and reduce/deny playing time to Carter/Keon/Colby. Probably similar story with Davion. Barnes will get minutes, unless we can pull off a trade sooner.

 

[hrdboild]

Surprising that Filipowski was never selected. He made opponents miserable more often than not. Perhaps NBA scouts do not believe his game will translate?

That was a big time miss for NBA scouts I think. He's a first round talent worth trading up to the top of the second round for (though some of these trades lately are bonkers, so maybe not).

 

[SacTownKid]

Adding Carter, if Monte thought he was the BPA was absolutely the right move (unless the difference between him and a wing was relatively small). So, not questioning the pick itself. Just pointing out that the assumption that trade will balance out the roster is not easy to pull off, and if past performance is any guide, might not happen at all.

Contrary to your argument though, I think this selection makes it a little tougher for Monte to pull off a trade. We can't settle in a trade. Our requirement was, and remains finding an improved replacement for Banes. A trade that doesn't achieve this, doesn't make sense for us.

Teams know that now we are even more desperate for it, and might demand higher returns. If we refuse to blink, we will need to give significant minutes to Kevin and hope he can rediscover his shot. If that happens, great. Helps us win short term, and increases his value, giving us a long term win too. However, if he struggles, we probably lose some more games, get poor returns, and reduce/deny playing time to Carter/Keon/Colby. Probably similar story with Davion. Barnes will get minutes, unless we can pull off a trade sooner.

I agree, you don't want to settle, but the thing is now you might not have to replace Harrisons capabilities as a talent in totality when conducting a trade. At least not to the degree you once did. Yeah, Carter doesn't replace Barnes, but his talent level lessens the loss if and when it comes via trade. IMO the Kings biggest need on offense is a player that can get to the rack, create havoc, and get to the line. Carter possesses that ability potentially.

 

[SacTownKid]

That was a big time miss for NBA scouts I think. He's a first round talent worth trading up to the top of the second round for (though some of these trades lately are bonkers, so maybe not).

Lets just hope he keeps falling. Sorry Flip haha. Mogbo, Smith. A lot of good frontcourt options left, but 45 might be a stretch. Hope not though.

 

[funkykingston]

That was a big time miss for NBA scouts I think. He's a first round talent worth trading up to the top of the second round for (though some of these trades lately are bonkers, so maybe not).

He's also a great fit for a Kings team that wants to continue to run their normal sets when Sabonis is out. You then sign or trade a bigger bodied shot blocker as your 3rd center to round things out. Bringing back Len or trading for Robert Williams are two options there.

But Filipowski let's you play five out and really space the floor. We saw from OKC and BOS how valuable that can be.

 

[twslam07]

Standing Reach matters as we have see with HB. Like HB, Carter has a good wingspan but poor standing reach. If only one of Monk, Keon, Carter, Fox are not in the closing line-up we will be 3-4 inches below average in length at both the 2 and 3.

Ellis: 8’ 6”
Huerter: 8’ 5.5”
Fox: 8’ 4”
Monk: 8’ 3”
Carter: 8’ 2”
Mitchell 8’ 0.5

Carter at the two is very similar pick to Davion at the point. A high energy older smaller guard who is 3-4” negative standing reach for his position. You would think Monte learned but he just repeated the same pick.

I posted this reply to @sactowndog in the “Following Potential *2024* Draftees” thread when he made the same claim there. I didn’t get a response then but we’ll see if I get one now.

To be fair, Carter did measure with a longer wingspan than Ellis (6’8.75” vs. 6’8.5”) so let’s not pretend like “length” is only defined by standing reach.

It’s also worth noting that Carter’s vertical was much better than what Ellis posted which I think is a complementary data point to consider when looking at standing reach.

For example, Carter measured with a 8’2” standing reach, 35” standing vertical, and 42” max vertical. That means at a standstill, Carter’s hand can get up to 11’1” to contest a shot, and with a running start, Carter’s hand can get up to 11’8” to contest a shot.

Now let’s consider Keon who measured with a 8’6” standing reach, 28” standing vertical, and 35.5” max vertical. That means at a standstill, Keon’s hand can get up to 10’10” to contest a shot, and with a running start, Keon’s hand can get up to 11’5.5”.

As you can see, Carter can technically contest shots at a higher point than Ellis which helps negate the difference in standing reach while at the same time having a longer wingspan which is more important for deflections, playing the passing lanes, stripping players, disrupting ball handlers, etc.

Then you add to the fact that Carter has been an excellent rebounder for his position in college and will likely be a better rebounder than Ellis and it makes his shorter height/standing reach) less of an issue.

Then you add to the fact that Carter weighed in 26 lbs heavier than Ellis and it helps negate that height that much more as it allows him to bang with stronger players without being moved off of his spot.

But despite Carter having 26 lbs on Ellis, his agility/quickness/speed tests were better as well:

Lane Agility
Devin Carter = 10.63 sec
Keon Ellis = 10.87 sec

Shuttle Run
Devin Carter = 2.90 sec
Keon Ellis = 3.02 sec

3/4 Sprint
Devin Carter = 2.87 sec
Keon Ellis = 3.18 sec


So what do we potentially have in Carter? A defender who is quicker, faster, and stronger than Ellis who technically can contest shots at a higher point in the air than Ellis and will very likely be a better rebounder than Ellis. Now does that mean that Carter will be the better player or defender? Of course not. But I wouldn’t be surprised (and that’s coming from a guy that loves Ellis).

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Sure, but for what? What are you getting in return?

It's no secret that some of these folks have been on the block for a while. In fact, last offseason, Barnes was a FA, and we had the choice of signing someone else. We didn't/couldn't, since obviously we couldn't find anyone.

The trade to balance the roster needs to send out some of these guards and instead get someone who is an improvement over Barnes. Which GMs are lining up to accept some combination of the above players, and what players do you think you can get? If the pot needs to be sweetened by throwing in a prospect like Keon/Colby/pick, then that's effectively a cost that's added to the Devin pick.

To piggyback your point here, another thing to consider is all the other GM’s, or at least most of them, understand the KINGS situation and the players they’d most likely prefer to offload for different talent.

That makes it more difficult for Monte McNair in a sense because those GM’s, if they even have interest, are going to use that knowledge to leverage a better deal for themselves — basically low balling and waiting it out knowing that the KINGS need to do something soon.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

a few players that Carters taller then (without shoes on) according to the draft combine - (Fox, Marcus Smart, Donovan Mitchell, GP2, D'anthony Melton)
Fret not Kings fans.

Wasn’t Swipa barely 19 when he was measured at the combine (whereas Carter is 22 now)?

It’s very possible De’Aaron grew a tad since then thus isn’t shorter than Carter. Just saying.

 

[The_Jamal]

That was a big time miss for NBA scouts I think. He's a first round talent worth trading up to the top of the second round for (though some of these trades lately are bonkers, so maybe not).

I'd empty the 2nd round clip to move up and go get him and just lock down our backup 5 spot. Also think there's an okayish chance he can play some 4

 

[iowamcnabb]

Memphis is going to be scary.

Ja
Smart
Bane
JJJ
Edey

Vince Williams, GG, Brandon Clarke and Aldama off the bench.

We still have some work to do, let’s get it

 

[sactowndog]

Doesn't Carter's 42" vertical mostly negate that 3-4" of standing reach disadvantage? He's still getting up there to block shots and grab rebounds that most guards can't get to.

Simplifying basketball down to a game of positional height equivalence strikes me as a particularly fool-hardy argument which doesn't even warrant much response but I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you're just using this as a short-hand for defensive versatility. Height does have some impact on defense in basketball -- perhaps even a lot of impact -- but so do a lot of other attributes: length, lateral quickness, instincts, knowledge of opponent tendencies, reaction time, and aggression among them. I will take a team of short guys any day of the week who all play defense like their hair is on fire over tall guys with questionable motors. You run the risk here of simplifying a thing so much as to render it meaningless.

I'm also going to dig up the ghost of Sacramento Kings past and remind you that Fox's biggest elite tool used to be speed. With this Devin Carter pick, Monte just drafted another running mate who can keep up with him in the open floor. It wasn't just a downtick in shooting percentage which caused our offensive backslide this past season, it was also the loss of the fastbreak game which used to represent a significant chunk of our offense. Fox was playing on a bad ankle most of the year and settling for long jumpers more than he ever has. Several of us were bemoaning the notable loss of Terence Davis' speed and fearless shot hunting in the second unit this year as well. It could be that in Devin Carter we got some of that identity back combined with the defensive mentality of a Davion Mitchell but in a more switch-friendly wing-sized body type.

Part of team building is whittling down a roster into the best possible 8-9 man playoff rotation. Combining attributes that we used to have spread out over 2 or 3 different players into one do-it-all combo guard helps us to get one step closer to that perfect playoff rotation. Maybe you were among the group who wanted to see us use the pick to bring in a proven vet instead but Devin Carter's rookie contract is only going to be $22 million total spread over 4 years for an average annual cap hit of $5.5 million. If he's a valuable rotation player for the majority of that contract, Monte just bought a lot of roster flexibility he wouldn't have by trading the pick for a veteran.

not as much because people can just shoot over you like we see with Davion. I remember people claiming Davion could guard the 3. He can’t the 2 or the 3 because NBA players just shoot over him. Carter is only 2” of standing reach more than Davion. He is not guarding the 3 successfully with any regularity.

not going to spend hours arguing over this pick with the board. I answered a question thoughtfully. Pending a trade, to me, this pick is Davion 2.0

 

[sactowndog]

Memphis is going to be scary.

Ja
Smart
Bane
JJJ
Edey

Vince Williams, GG, Brandon Clarke and Aldama off the bench.

We still have some work to do, let’s get it

think it will be
Ja
Smart
GG
JJJ
Edey.

they are going to be another very long team.

 

[serbiangoat]

Is Ware like a cousin/reincarnation of WCS? The attitude/physical build even the face is the same and literally the same questions in terms of effort....

 

[sactowndog]

I posted this reply to @sactowndog in the “Following Potential *2024* Draftees” thread when he made the same claim there. I didn’t get a response then but we’ll see if I get one now.

my reply is after watching Barnes for 5 years I have come to the opinion standing reach is more important than wingspan. Barnes also has very good wingspan and poor standing reach allowing people to shoot over him. I have not done the math but I suspect Barnes is the player proportionally closest to Carter.

 

[twslam07]

my reply is after watching Barnes for 5 years I have come to the opinion standing reach is more important than wingspan. Barnes also has very good wingspan and poor standing reach allowing people to shoot over him. I have not done the math but I suspect Barnes is the player proportionally closest to Carter.

You’re missing the point I made.

You’re not acknowledging the combination of standing reach + vertical. You’re missing a very important part of that equation.

I would hope that we both can agree that Ellis can handle himself at SG with his abilities and length. Considering their verticals, Carter can contest 3-3.5” higher than Ellis. That’s important to recognize.

Why are you comparing him to Barnes? Barnes is defending PFs with an abysmal 8’5.5” standing reach for his position and a ground bound game. That’s the issue. Nobody is saying we should start Carter at PF. He’s a PG/SG who can flex up to SF when we go small/play 3 guard lineups for small stretches.

I am on the record in the other draft thread saying that I think Carter was a better draft prospect than Mitchell (and McNair got him 4 picks later than where we draft Mitchell). He’s much more versatile than Mitchell (due to his length, athleticism, strength, & rebounding) and his length and athleticism give him the opportunity/potential to develop into a really strong offensive player if he puts in the work.