[Game] Kings vs. Clippers - 4/2/2024 - 7:00PM PST/10:00PM EST

[Jones2006]

The best part is them thinking that us not playing Len was a "mistake" in that series. Gs chews up stationary bigs like him for breakfast and he was getting cooked those first few games on D in space. No coincidence we won game 6 on the back of Lyles at the 5 and Keegan at the 4 on D.

We lost because our 2 best players were hurt and of our starters were unplayable the whole series

Respectfully what you’re just saying didn’t happen, and you staying that so matter of factly in criticizing other posters opinions should be called out.

Len was not run off the court. The opposite happened. He had a huge +/- the whole series, especially compared to Sabonis. Golden State never figured it out. His offensive rebounding, interior physical play, and rim protection outweighed any speed advantage they had. Again, that is the fact as evident from his +/- that series.

Going in it was EXPECTED Golden State would run circles around him. But they didn’t. Just because other posters have a different opinion than you or Coach Brown on what he could or should have done doesn’t mean you need to rewrite history and act like your opinion carries more weight than others.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The best part is them thinking that us not playing Len was a "mistake" in that series. Gs chews up stationary bigs like him for breakfast and he was getting cooked those first few games on D in space. No coincidence we won game 6 on the back of Lyles at the 5 and Keegan at the 4 on D.

We lost because our 2 best players were hurt and of our starters were unplayable the whole series

Len was effective in the first two wins at home. The discussion and majority opinion here, was positive that they decided to insert him into the rotation very late in the season...and then use him in that series. Looney went on to out rebound the Kings badly, which was a huge factor,....that doesn't happen with Len in there.

Adding another smallish stretch 5 type center doesn't make any sense, when they already have Lyles signed. They should bring back Alex Len

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I would say this is in response to the other post about the attack on Brown. I don’t believe it to be over the line nor is it a personal attack on forum members but I am responding strongly to the opinions posted.

Why is the tiniest criticism an "aTtaCk!!"

People, seriously, grow up. This is a forum where debate occurs. If one can't express a moderately critical opinion about one of the Anointed Saviors in the org without being sneered at and it framed as an "attack"... how is that healthy?

The SECOND I started saying even slightly critical things about Brown people lost their minds. I get it. It's a fan board. But maybe let's try to cool it on the junior high level group think when someone expresses a slightly critical opinion.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Respectfully what you’re just saying didn’t happen, and you staying that so matter of factly in criticizing other posters opinions should be called out.

Len was not run off the court. The opposite happened. He had a huge +/- the whole series, especially compared to Sabonis. Golden State never figured it out. His offensive rebounding, interior physical play, and rim protection outweighed any speed advantage they had. Again, that is the fact as evident from his +/- that series.

Going in it was EXPECTED Golden State would run circles around him. But they didn’t. Just because other posters have a different opinion than you or Coach Brown on what he could or should have done doesn’t mean you need to rewrite history and act like your opinion carries more weight than others.

What Len was doing a decent job of was boxing out Looney. I was hoping Brown would play Len more to prevent Looney from averaging 37 rebounds per game during the series.

 

[sactowndog]

I think by default with Huerter & Monk out, Murray needs to increase the usage, make or miss. Keep the defense honest and guessing. Can't have Fox chucking 30+ shots a game and Sabonis by nature isn't an aggressive shot taker

I agree but he doesn’t have unlimited energy. As he gets tired his shot flattens. Hopefully Mike plays Kessler more and gives Keegan less defensive responsibilities.

 

[The_Jamal]

Why is the tiniest criticism an "aTtaCk!!"

People, seriously, grow up. This is a forum where debate occurs. If one can't express a moderately critical opinion about one of the Anointed Saviors in the org without being sneered at and it framed as an "attack"... how is that healthy?

The SECOND I started saying even slightly critical things about Brown people lost their minds. I get it. It's a fan board. But maybe let's try to cool it on the junior high level group think when someone expresses a slightly critical opinion.

Pot, meet kettle. I'm not the one who can't handle criticism on this forum without whining about it.

Of course I think I'm right. I have conviction in my opinions and most of the time, I'm usually on the mark with my basketball takes. I'm not going to back down off my stance because some of you think it's wrong. That's the whole point of a forum; to discuss kings basketball topics. Right?

Edit: to clarify, I'm not going to back off my stance when I think one side doesn't properly support their argument for whatever the topic is. Which happens quite a bit on this forum with some posters

 

[Caccia]

I agree but he doesn’t have unlimited energy. As he gets tired his shot flattens. Hopefully Mike plays Kessler more and gives Keegan less defensive responsibilities.

Aha! That would explain why Murray shot 44% from three in December; 39.1% in January; 33.9% in February; and 34.3% in March. A steady dropoff as the season progressed.

 

[GWD]

Pot, meet kettle. I'm not the one who can't handle criticism on this forum without whining about it.

Of course I think I'm right. I have conviction in my opinions and most of the time, I'm usually on the mark with my basketball takes. I'm not going to back down off my stance because some of you think it's wrong. That's the whole point of a forum; to discuss kings basketball topics. Right?

Topics and opinions...yes. People or personalities...no.

 

[The_Jamal]

Len was effective in the first two wins at home. The discussion and majority opinion here, was positive that they decided to insert him into the rotation very late in the season...and then use him in that series. Looney went on to out rebound the Kings badly, which was a huge factor,....that doesn't happen with Len in there.

Adding another smallish stretch 5 type center doesn't make any sense, when they already have Lyles signed. They should bring back Alex Len

Don't get me wrong, I ate crow last year on my Len take. I thought he was washed, I was very wrong. He's been rock solid since that stretch at the end of last year.

But still doesn't change the fact he's a bad matchup in that golden state series. Lyles at the 5 was the much better play vs that specific squad.

Now, Len has looked a little quicker and more mobile this season. Even last night, he held up OK vs the LAC small ball. So maybe it could work, but I'd go to Lyles vs small ball squads at the 5

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Don't get me wrong, I ate crow last year on my Len take. I thought he was washed, I was very wrong. He's been rock solid since that stretch at the end of last year.

But still doesn't change the fact he's a bad matchup in that golden state series. Lyles at the 5 was the much better play vs that specific squad.

Now, Len has looked a little quicker and more mobile this season. Even last night, he held up OK vs the LAC small ball. So maybe it could work, but I'd go to Lyles vs small ball squads at the 5

Looney isn't a small ball stretch 5. He's a tough interior big who is a top tier rebounder....and gives Sabonis fits, which was a big reason they won that series. Len is an ideal matchup to throw at him, because he's a legit 7'1, plays big and neutralizes what Looney gives them

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Pot, meet kettle. I'm not the one who can't handle criticism on this forum without whining about it.

Of course I think I'm right. I have conviction in my opinions and most of the time, I'm usually on the mark with my basketball takes. I'm not going to back down off my stance because some of you think it's wrong. That's the whole point of a forum; to discuss kings basketball topics. Right?

Edit: to clarify, I'm not going to back off my stance when I think one side doesn't properly support their argument for whatever the topic is. Which happens quite a bit on this forum with some posters

I'm not complaining about people countering my argument. I'm complaining about people freaking out and framing my critical opinion is an "attack" on our coach - and also implying much worse things about me which I will not repeat.

I do not consider differing opinions invalid.

 

[dude12]

I'm not complaining about people countering my argument. I'm complaining about people freaking out and framing my critical opinion is an "attack" on our coach - and also implying much worse things about me which I will not repeat.

I do not consider differing opinions invalid.

There is always the ignore button but I’ll choose how I word my posts. I don’t lose any sleep over this. I’m sure you don’t either.

 

[Fantazija]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1775386867057516558

He was phenomenal

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Looney isn't a small ball stretch 5. He's a tough interior big who is a top tier rebounder....and gives Sabonis fits, which was a big reason they won that series. Len is an ideal matchup to throw at him, because he's a legit 7'1, plays big and neutralizes what Looney what gives them

Looney was allowed a level of physicality against Domas that should have been unacceptable but for whatever reason after the stomp Domas was treated like he was a punching bag by officials.

To the extent we should have brought Len or someone else in it should have been to punch him in the face. And no, I'm not being hyperbolic.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Looney was allowed a level of physicality against Domas that should have been unacceptable but for whatever reason after the stomp Domas was treated like he was a punching bag by officials.

To the extent we should have brought Len or someone else in it should have been to punch him in the face. And no, I'm not being hyperbolic.

After seeing how that series unfolded, I would try to match more of Looney's minutes with Len on the floor....and try to get Sabonis matched up against Green

 

[pdxKingsFan]

After seeing how that series unfolded, I would try to match more of Looney's minutes with Len on the floor....and try to get Sabonis matched up against Green

There's a lot to unpack about that series that can lend itself to a lot of frustration. Ultimately we lost because some players we were counting on completely disappeared (we don't need to name their names but they have pretty much been singled out as trade bait all season this year).

It really is interesting to see how this season's injuries have forced some re-evaluation of the roster pieces we have rather than our off-season wishlists and that maybe some of the puzzle pieces are there and we were trying to cram them into the wrong spot.

So much was said about our injury-luck last year (when the reality is we had hungry players that refused to take any significant time off) and you have to wonder if the setbacks we had this year are the cliched "not a setback but an opportunity" moments that will lead us into taking a leap.

 

[Tizzy Flip]

Topics and opinions...yes. People or personalities...no.

I hope coach Brown has a staff that is willing to challenge his thinking and make him sharper on his decisions. No coach is immune to criticism and I’m sure the greatest coaches succeeded as they had people who could see their blind spots and be encouraged to tell them so… for the sake of improving

There are a ton of people on this board that think the players and coaches can’t/shouldn’t be criticized. Not sure where this mentality comes from but it’s like working for a company where people think they can’t question and criticize their bosses. And then when you call them out, they get all defensive and use this pot kettle defensiveness. Very passive aggressive

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Don't get me wrong, I ate crow last year on my Len take. I thought he was washed, I was very wrong. He's been rock solid since that stretch at the end of last year.

But still doesn't change the fact he's a bad matchup in that golden state series. Lyles at the 5 was the much better play vs that specific squad.

To justify that take, I think you have to explain his +/- numbers for the series. (Not saying it can't be done, +/- numbers aren't a flawless metric; but they do offer evidence to counter your narrative that Len was exploited by the GSW matchup)

 

[The_Jamal]

To justify that take, I think you have to explain his +/- numbers for the series. (Not saying it can't be done, +/- numbers aren't a flawless metric; but they do offer evidence to counter your narrative that Len was exploited by the GSW matchup)

Sure, +/- on an individual game basis is absolute garbanzo beans. It's a team/lineup stat, not an individual stat. All it says is for the 12:55 that Len was on the court for game 1, that the team was +10. That's not telling you if Len actually did anything to contribute to that or if we just randomly got hot when he was in his in for his 2 rotations, or what quality of player was on the opposing team while he was in the game. It seems like it's useful, but it just isn't. Not just busting this take out now, I've responded this same way when someone tries to tell how great player X's +/- was during whatever random game they choose.


I think why Len got benched game 6 and 7 is pretty clear. We lost 3 straight games, we needed a spark, and game 6 with Lyles at the 5 and Keegan at the 4 defensively is why we won that game. So Brown rode the hot hand, along with TD in game 7. Len's counting stats look fine enough (although he was fouling and turning the ball over quite a bit), but to me that's the simple explanation why he got pulled from the rotation.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Sure, +/- on an individual game basis is absolute garbanzo beans. It's a team/lineup stat, not an individual stat. All it says is for the 12:55 that Len was on the court for game 1, that the team was +10. That's not telling you if Len actually did anything to contribute to that or if we just randomly got hot when he was in his in for his 2 rotations, or what quality of player was on the opposing team while he was in the game. It seems like it's useful, but it just isn't. Not just busting this take out now, I've responded this same way when someone tries to tell how great player X's +/- was during whatever random game they choose.


I think why Len got benched game 6 and 7 is pretty clear. We lost 3 straight games, we needed a spark, and game 6 with Lyles at the 5 and Keegan at the 4 defensively is why we won that game. So Brown rode the hot hand, along with TD in game 7. Len's counting stats look fine enough (although he was fouling and turning the ball over quite a bit), but to me that's the simple explanation why he got pulled from the rotation.

That's a fine generic criticism of the stat. +/- is indeed a team stat, but if the number is positive, the team is not being cooked while a player is on the floor.

 

[The_Jamal]

That's a fine generic criticism of the stat. +/- is indeed a team stat, but if the number is positive, the team is not being cooked while a player is on the floor.

Sure, but that doesn't tell you if Alex Len was actually good or not in those minutes. Which is the whole problem with the stat.

I do remember him being great in games 1-2 and very lackluster/bad in games 3-5. Think that also contributed to the Lyles at the 5 change in game 6.

So for example, Fox was -17 in our 17 point loss in game 3 and -20 in our 20 point loss in game 7. If we take the stat literally in an individualized approach, +/- would tell you that we would have been better off not playing Fox those games. Would you agree with that?

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I have never understood the reluctance to use Len going all the way back to early last season when it was clear he filled a huge gap for us. And not using him more in the GS series I simply will never understand. I can only hope he does not make the same mistake.

I think there was hope that Metu might develop into a good player. Higher potential vs a 10 year vet.

As far as why Len hasn't gotten more minutes this year, I think I'm in the Alex Len fan club on this forum. But McGee has been a better player over most of his career, and even today they're pretty close.

Domas is better than Len (Hot Take!), and should be playing as many minutes as we dare. And in 2024, I don't think you can get away with Sabonis and Len together on the floor. (We're a good enough rebounding team with just Sabonis on the floor)

 

[pdxKingsFan]

There's some folks that love to point out that Sabonis doesn't always have the best +/- but there's no denying that he showed up and the culture changed overnight as well as our winning %.

Len was injured at the start of the season and on a minutes restriction and I think that Brown wanted to reward McGee once Len was able to get back into the lineup until Len started outplaying McGee to the extent that you could not justify it any longer. This is good because if Len is not an 82 game per year player or even a 50-60 game per year player, we have him when we need him most.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I hope coach Brown has a staff that is willing to challenge his thinking and make him sharper on his decisions. No coach is immune to criticism and I’m sure the greatest coaches succeeded as they had people who could see their blind spots and be encouraged to tell them so… for the sake of improving

There are a ton of people on this board that think the players and coaches can’t/shouldn’t be criticized. Not sure where this mentality comes from but it’s like working for a company where people think they can’t question and criticize their bosses. And then when you call them out, they get all defensive and use this pot kettle defensiveness. Very passive aggressive

I don’t think people are against criticism unless the poster is a one trick pony. There is a ratio of fun/positive posts to negative/critical posts that the majority would find acceptable. This is supposed to be a fun place. Sure we all let out our frustrations with players, coaches, decisions etc but if that’s alll we did, I don’t think we would have a ton of 15+ year members.

Having said that, I personally have stopped commenting on posts that annoy me. It doesn’t really go anywhere and both parties leave feeling irritated. It’s healthier to just skip past those and save your battles for real life. I’m not doling out advice here either, it’s just what I’ve personally decided to do.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think there was hope that Metu might develop into a good player. Higher potential vs a 10 year vet.

As far as why Len hasn't gotten more minutes this year, I think I'm in the Alex Len fan club on this forum. But McGee has been a better player over most of his career, and even today they're pretty close.

They haven't been pretty close this season, which is why Brown has stuck with Len exclusively, despite seemingly not wanting to and favoring McGee earlier

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

They haven't been pretty close this season, which is why Brown has stuck with Len exclusively, despite seemingly not wanting to and favoring McGee earlier

This year they're both basically replacement level players (Len has a VORP of 0.2, McGee of 0.0). I think Len has a better defined role though

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Sure, but that doesn't tell you if Alex Len was actually good or not in those minutes. Which is the whole problem with the stat.

I do remember him being great in games 1-2 and very lackluster/bad in games 3-5. Think that also contributed to the Lyles at the 5 change in game 6.

So for example, Fox was -17 in our 17 point loss in game 3 and -20 in our 20 point loss in game 7. If we take the stat literally in an individualized approach, +/- would tell you that we would have been better off not playing Fox those games. Would you agree with that?

Factually, the -17 and -20 +/- stats indicates that the team was outplayed during Fox's time on the floor. It doesn't indicate fault or blame, but it does document that the team struggled competing during his minutes (it was probably more about Curry than it was about Fox)

Len's +/- minutes document that the team didn't struggle during his minutes (aside from a bit of game 5). Which doesn't indicate that we couldn't have done better, but it does show that what you are saying happened, (mostly) didn't happen.

I think perhaps you remember game 5 and extrapolated that memory to the entire series. Memory is a fickle thing

 

[PorchSurfin]

I think Fox taking less shots and getting more assists has been huge for us!

 

[megapoxy]

Regarding Len (that should have a thread of his own with all this talk about him).
In my opinion having Javale on the floor instead of him early in the season was wrong. And even when Len was proven the right choice according to our announcers there was a "5 games McGee" "5 games Len" periods that they were swapping places in the rotation. I think Javale got the spot since he was most efficient in the attack with Monk throwing him those oops quite often. It wasn't so easy for Len to do the same since he is not that fast to sneak near the rim. Did this choice cost us to win some matches? Don't really remember now, but as with Javale the same thing happened with JTA, that he was chosen to fit in the rotation leaving other players out (Keon, Kessler, Sasha) not bringing much to the team in his 20 days that he spent with the Kings.

https://twitter.com/statuses/1775585374376755282

 

[kingsboi]

I agree but he doesn’t have unlimited energy. As he gets tired his shot flattens. Hopefully Mike plays Kessler more and gives Keegan less defensive responsibilities.

no being has unlimited energy but what you put in for the fuel matters a lot. I'd like to see Keegan take on Domas' nutritional plan for the future. Look how consistent and durable he's been all season and he credits it to his nutrition.