[Game] California Classic 2023, Day 1 (7/3/2023): Kings vs. Warriors 7pm Pacific, 10pm Eastern

[funkykingston]

but if you look at overall 3pt shooting (not just catch and shoot) your argument falls apart. Wiggins career average is 35% and last year he shot a career high 39.5%

OG is 37.5% career and shot a career high 39% last year.

Dillon Brooks, your guy, is 34% career and 32.5% last year.

Eason played one year. He shot 34%.

Thuybulle is 33% for his career, though he did shoot 36% last year.

And poor Kessler is better than you give him credit. He has a career average of 34% and shot 35% after the trade to Sac. Those numbers need to improve, but are already better than Brooks and Eason, better than all but a half season of Thuybulle, and 2.5% off of OG’s career numbers.

But the funniest part of your analysis for Kessler. He has played so little that he is truly small sample size biased. His career totals are 65/191. With so few attempts, if he had literally made 5 more threes he would be a career 37% shooter, not 34%. So you are arguing that he isn’t/can’t/won’t be OG on the statistical basis of 5 threes.

How about we let the guy keep developing before we write him off or cap what he can be? The one common thread for all these players is that they all shot better last season than their career numbers. Put differently, they are all getting better. But that is your common refrain- everyone else’s players can get better, but ours are capped out.

I *believe* the stats listed are just the percentages on catch-and-shoot threes. Meaning assisted shots that the player didn't create for themself.

I can't vouch for the accuracy (since I haven't looked them up), but that would explain the variance.

Kessler will suffer from an even smaller sample size in that analysis but his first Summer League game didn't help his case. Hopefully he shoots better tomorrow.

EDIT: Capt. beat me to it.

 

[206Fan]

I would be more impress if Keegan play solid defense and help with the rebounding than anything else. We all know he can knock down shots. We all know he can drive to the basket. But now he's just focusing a bit more on dribbling and driving which is great. However, his defense and rebounding should be the main focus in the summer imo. He has the tool...the length to rebound...just need lock down the fundamental. Every time the ball is in the air, his job is look behind and start boxing out. He should work on his defensive mentality...which is anticipation and instinct....so far I have not seen that in 1 game. Why does he need to work on those aspect of his game? Because that's the Kings team weakness. When you allow your man to attack the basket because you forgot to guard, you're essentially part of the reason why the team has weak team defense because you're creating a leak in a pipe and the leak turn into bigger leak and then a flood...then it becomes hard to drain the water. Not being dramatic...but that's the truth.

I disagree with you, and I think most would too.

With Keegan, we're trying to develop him into an NBA superstar, not a role player. Yes rebounding and defense are important, but that's secondary to the Kings trying to develop him as an on-ball scorer. Keegan hasn't shown that he can consistently drive to the basket or score without the help of Sabonis. In his rookie year, his entire offense has been primarily moving without the ball and scoring through catch and shoot. The Kings want him to become a star and that means he needs to work on finding ways to score by himself and getting comfortable handling the ball. Summerleague is a good time to experiment and show how much his game has grown since the playoffs. The coach has come out and said that they're purposely putting him in uncomfortable and challenging positions. He's got a lot of pressure and things being thrown at him right now. He'll be fine in the regular season when he's not forced to be the #1 option like how he is now. He'll have more time to focus on defense and rebounding.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I disagree with you, and I think most would too.

With Keegan, we're trying to develop him into an NBA superstar, not a role player. Yes rebounding and defense are important, but that's secondary to the Kings trying to develop him as an on-ball scorer. Keegan hasn't shown that he can consistently drive to the basket or score without the help of Sabonis. In his rookie year, his entire offense has been primarily moving without the ball and scoring through catch and shoot. The Kings want him to become a star and that means he needs to work on finding ways to score by himself and getting comfortable handling the ball. Summerleague is a good time to experiment and show how much his game has grown since the playoffs. The coach has come out and said that they're purposely putting him in uncomfortable and challenging positions. He's got a lot of pressure and things being thrown at him right now. He'll be fine in the regular season when he's not forced to be the #1 option like how he is now. He'll have more time to focus on defense and rebounding.

Great summary.

The way I see it, everyone can and should play good D and rebound, but few will ever make the leap to become scoring elite - that's harder. Keegan has the potential to do that. It would be malpractice to not push him in this direction with every resource available - summer league being a big one. The defense and rebounding will come alongside all that.

The Kings should not thwart or stunt a potential superstar's growth to meet short term team needs. I'm also not convinced he hasn't/won't take a leap defensively this year as well. There is a learning curve to NBA defense.

 

[miltonap]

Great summary.

The way I see it, everyone can and should play good D and rebound, but few will ever make the leap to become scoring elite - that's harder. Keegan has the potential to do that. It would be malpractice to not push him in this direction with every resource available - summer league being a big one. The defense and rebounding will come alongside all that.

The Kings should not thwart or stunt a potential superstar's growth to meet short term team needs. I'm also not convinced he hasn't/won't take a leap defensively this year as well. There is a learning curve to NBA defense.

Keegan is untradeable imo.

Just a total stud

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1676077286095994880

Wait, Jordan Ford's kindergarten teacher was Sign Lady? He pretty much HAS to make the main roster now.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Keegan is untradeable imo.

Just a total stud

Big agree.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Simone compared Keegan to Kawahi and I can’t I hear it.

technically he was just comparing the jump they made/appear to have made from year one to two. Still, if that kinda leap is for real we are in for a treat

Iowa has it right.

People hear or read a player comparison 3rd hand and almost always misinterpret and run wild with it.

What I heard was an “unnamed scout” seeing Keegan score 17 consecutive points in a scrimmage and said it “reminded” him of seeing Kawhi at the same point before his 2nd season WRT making a noticeable jump.

The comment was not about comparing them as players or definitively claiming Keegan = the next Kawhi.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Iowa has it right.

People hear or read a player comparison 3rd hand and almost always misinterpret and run wild with it.

What I heard was an “unnamed scout” seeing Keegan score 17 consecutive points in a scrimmage and said it “reminded” him of seeing Kawhi at the same point before his 2nd season WRT making a noticeable jump.

The comment was not about comparing them as players or definitively claiming Keegan = the next Kawhi.

Yes. This. Clearly. The scout was commenting on the development comparison, not the direct player comparison. I took it as a very good sign. Obviously it was just professional eyes confirming what all of us amateurs saw plainly.

Suffice to say I'm quite excited to see Mr. Murray come Nov. 1.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Thanks for pointing out my error. I edited my post to be less inflammatory, though I stand by my overall point Kessler is not that far off any of the guys he talks about as an overall three point shooter, and is already better than brooks.

You took the bait. Trying to match up one set of parsed out stats against a different set of parsed out stats will get you nowhere. Anyone who wants to argue that Kess is not a true 3&D guy because his shooting doesn't meet their standards will never be convinced by other facts. At the end of the day the reality is he's a young player who already is a dogged defender and working on his shot more importantly no one wanted him to go away at the end of the season everyone wanted him back. Some things can't be borne out with just numbers.

 

[Rain man]

You took the bait. Trying to match up one set of parsed out stats against a different set of parsed out stats will get you nowhere. Anyone who wants to argue that Kess is not a true 3&D guy because his shooting doesn't meet their standards will never be convinced by other facts. At the end of the day the reality is he's a young player who already is a dogged defender and working on his shot more importantly no one wanted him to go away at the end of the season everyone wanted him back. Some things can't be borne out with just numbers.

Agree. I think he has a real future. I had to laugh that he is a better overall three point shooter than Brooks. Brooks is apparently the gold standard, so it just made me laugh to discover that Kessler already shoots better (and without the annoying volume of brooks).

 

[captain bill]

I disagree with you, and I think most would too.

With Keegan, we're trying to develop him into an NBA superstar, not a role player. Yes rebounding and defense are important, but that's secondary to the Kings trying to develop him as an on-ball scorer. Keegan hasn't shown that he can consistently drive to the basket or score without the help of Sabonis. In his rookie year, his entire offense has been primarily moving without the ball and scoring through catch and shoot. The Kings want him to become a star and that means he needs to work on finding ways to score by himself and getting comfortable handling the ball. Summerleague is a good time to experiment and show how much his game has grown since the playoffs. The coach has come out and said that they're purposely putting him in uncomfortable and challenging positions. He's got a lot of pressure and things being thrown at him right now. He'll be fine in the regular season when he's not forced to be the #1 option like how he is now. He'll have more time to focus on defense and rebounding.

A superstar needs to be versatile and impact the game in multiple ways, including playmaking, defense, and rebounding. What you're talking about is turning into a higher volume MPJ. Which isn't bad obviously, but also isn't a superstar.

Having to defend Fox every day is way more promising for his development than finding more ways for him to score.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Keegan is untradeable imo.

Just a total stud

I know I disagreed with you in the past, but this I wholeheartedly agree with. There is too much there that suggests he is going to be one hell of a well rounded scoring machine to do anything to inhibit his growth.

In fact, the Kings (and Fox and Recee) are doing everything to encourage and develop him not only as a person but as a hooper.

His parents must be over the moon to have had him end up here with these guys. Fox and Recee took him under their wing and he has responded about as well as you could hope for.

When the national media gets in on the story they are going to have a field day. The feel good story of a team that rose from the ashes to royalty!

 

[sactowndog]

but if you look at overall 3pt shooting (not just catch and shoot) your argument falls apart. Wiggins career average is 35% and last year he shot a career high 39.5%

OG is 37.5% career and shot a career high 39% last year.

Dillon Brooks, your guy, is 34% career and 32.5% last year.

Eason played one year. He shot 34%.

Thuybulle is 33% for his career, though he did shoot 36% last year.

And poor Kessler is better than you give him credit. He has a career average of 34% and shot 35% after the trade to Sac. Those numbers need to improve, but are already better than Brooks and Eason, better than all but a half season of Thuybulle, and 2.5% off of OG’s career numbers.

But the funniest part of your analysis for Kessler. He has played so little that he is truly small sample size biased. His career totals are 65/191. With so few attempts, if he had literally made 5 more threes he would be a career 37% shooter, not 34%. So you are arguing that he isn’t/can’t/won’t be OG on the statistical basis of 5 threes.

How about we let the guy keep developing before we write him off or cap what he can be? The one common thread for all these players is that they all shot better last season than their career numbers. Put differently, they are all getting better. But that is your common refrain- everyone else’s players can get better, but ours are capped out.

except in his role overall 3 point shooting doesn’t matter. Between Fox, Huerter and Keegan whoever plays that role isn’t going to be the 4th guy running off screens. They need to be able to space the floor on offense and shut down the opponents on defense.

 

[sactowndog]

I would be more impress if Keegan play solid defense and help with the rebounding than anything else. We all know he can knock down shots. We all know he can drive to the basket. But now he's just focusing a bit more on dribbling and driving which is great. However, his defense and rebounding should be the main focus in the summer imo. He has the tool...the length to rebound...just need lock down the fundamental. Every time the ball is in the air, his job is look behind and start boxing out. He should work on his defensive mentality...which is anticipation and instinct....so far I have not seen that in 1 game. Why does he need to work on those aspect of his game? Because that's the Kings team weakness. When you allow your man to attack the basket because you forgot to guard, you're essentially part of the reason why the team has weak team defense because you're creating a leak in a pipe and the leak turn into bigger leak and then a flood...then it becomes hard to drain the water. Not being dramatic...but that's the truth.

it’s not Keegan’s strength. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness. That doesn’t mean he won’t be a great player but that isn’t where he excels.,.

 

[sactowndog]

but if you look at overall 3pt shooting (not just catch and shoot) your argument falls apart. Wiggins career average is 35% and last year he shot a career high 39.5%

OG is 37.5% career and shot a career high 39% last year.

Dillon Brooks, your guy, is 34% career and 32.5% last year.

Eason played one year. He shot 34%.

Thuybulle is 33% for his career, though he did shoot 36% last year.

And poor Kessler is better than you give him credit. He has a career average of 34% and shot 35% after the trade to Sac. Those numbers need to improve, but are already better than Brooks and Eason, better than all but a half season of Thuybulle, and 2.5% off of OG’s career numbers.

But the funniest part of your analysis for Kessler. He has played so little that he is truly small sample size biased. His career totals are 65/191. With so few attempts, if he had literally made 5 more threes he would be a career 37% shooter, not 34%. So you are arguing that he isn’t/can’t/won’t be OG on the statistical basis of 5 threes.

How about we let the guy keep developing before we write him off or cap what he can be? The one common thread for all these players is that they all shot better last season than their career numbers. Put differently, they are all getting better. But that is your common refrain- everyone else’s players can get better, but ours are capped out.

at what point did I not give Kessler a chance? I’m very hopeful he can do well though 0-7 is not encouraging?

I’m positive about Keegan, Queta and Jones. But none of them are 3 and D defensive wings. My complaint is putting all of our eggs in Kessler and Slawson.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Yes. This. Clearly. The scout was commenting on the development comparison, not the direct player comparison. I took it as a very good sign. Obviously it was just professional eyes confirming what all of us amateurs saw plainly.

Suffice to say I'm quite excited to see Mr. Murray come Nov. 1.

He said he hasn't seen a jump between year 1 and 2 quite like Kawhi did, in reference to Keegan.

What he meant was only special players make that jump, and the last special player he saw do it was Kawhi.

 

[sactowndog]

Thanks for pointing out my error. I edited my post to be less inflammatory, though I stand by my overall point Kessler is not that far off any of the guys he talks about as an overall three point shooter, and is already better than brooks.

maybe you should recheck the stats:

Since you are not going to believe anything I say go to NBA.com, get the data, and post Catch and shoot 3 point percentage your self for the players I listed. If you can find it post corner Catch and Shoot 3’s and see how close Kessler compares to them as it is more relevant.

 

[sactowndog]

Great summary.

The way I see it, everyone can and should play good D and rebound, but few will ever make the leap to become scoring elite - that's harder. Keegan has the potential to do that. It would be malpractice to not push him in this direction with every resource available - summer league being a big one. The defense and rebounding will come alongside all that.

The Kings should not thwart or stunt a potential superstar's growth to meet short term team needs. I'm also not convinced he hasn't/won't take a leap defensively this year as well. There is a learning curve to NBA defense.

everyone has a different skill set and you need to maximize what you do well. Keenan is an exceptional shooter. If he can extend that skill (and I think he can) to shooting running off screens and off the dribble he becomes an all star talent that creates his own shot.

that doesn’t mean Keegan is also a 1v1 defensive stopper. Few players are Leonard or Fox that have that potential. Keegan isn’t that guy or he would have gone top 3. But he can be really Fing good and I’m glad.we have him.

 

[sactowndog]

A superstar needs to be versatile and impact the game in multiple ways, including playmaking, defense, and rebounding. What you're talking about is turning into a higher volume MPJ. Which isn't bad obviously, but also isn't a superstar.

Having to defend Fox every day is way more promising for his development than finding more ways for him to score.

Larry Bird was pretty damn good and he was at best an average defender.

 

[hrdboild]

I know I disagreed with you in the past, but this I wholeheartedly agree with. There is too much there that suggests he is going to be one hell of a well rounded scoring machine to do anything to inhibit his growth.

In fact, the Kings (and Fox and Recee) are doing everything to encourage and develop him not only as a person but as a hooper.

His parents must be over the moon to have had him end up here with these guys. Fox and Recee took him under their wing and he has responded about as well as you could hope for.

When the national media gets in on the story they are going to have a field day. The feel good story of a team that rose from the ashes to royalty!

It's really a shame how many top prospects end up in bad situations and their careers flounder for years or fizzle out as a result. Ideally everybody should come into the NBA with an All-NBA star to take them under their wing and exemplify a world-class work ethic and a coach who finds the right balance between encouragement and tough love.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

everyone has a different skill set and you need to maximize what you do well. Keenan is an exceptional shooter. If he can extend that skill (and I think he can) to shooting running off screens and off the dribble he becomes an all star talent that creates his own shot.

that doesn’t mean Keegan is also a 1v1 defensive stopper. Few players are Leonard or Fox that have that potential. Keegan isn’t that guy or he would have gone top 3. But he can be really Fing good and I’m glad.we have him.

 

[sactowndog]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1676077286095994880

Wait, Jordan Ford's kindergarten teacher was Sign Lady? He pretty much HAS to make the main roster now.

Jordan Ford played really well but the Kings are maybe the worst possible team to make the roster. But other teams will see him play.

 

[PorchSurfin]

except in his role overall 3 point shooting doesn’t matter. Between Fox, Huerter and Keegan whoever plays that role isn’t going to be the 4th guy running off screens. They need to be able to space the floor on offense and shut down the opponents on defense.

I'm gonna need you to tell me who those prototypical player is in the league right now, sans OG and Bridges (1 of which we couldn't get without gutting a good team and the other is a wife beater), that was available this year and PROVEN. Don't @ me with some rookie.

 

[PorchSurfin]

It's really a shame how many top prospects end up in bad situations and their careers flounder for years or fizzle out as a result. Ideally everybody should come into the NBA with an All-NBA star to take them under their wing and exemplify a world-class work ethic and a coach who finds the right balance between encouragement and tough love.

Not sure if sarcastic as this is a rare occurrence, made even more rare it's the Kings. But yeah. It sure would be nice.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Agree. I think he has a real future. I had to laugh that he is a better overall three point shooter than Brooks. Brooks is apparently the gold standard, so it just made me laugh to discover that Kessler already shoots better (and without the annoying volume of brooks).

The fact that Brooks and his 20 mill a year contract were what was considered as making the Kings a failure when they picked up Kess and added Colby was used as an argument is rather...unorthodox?

 

[hrdboild]

Not sure if sarcastic as this is a rare occurrence, made even more rare it's the Kings. But yeah. It sure would be nice.

Sorry, I suppose I brought this on myself. That comment was not sarcastic. I like following prospects and I genuinely want all of them to succeed. It's tough watching these young guys get thrown into the NBA on terrible teams with high levels of coach and front office turnover and just never put it all together. That chance at a professional basketball career can come and go before they realize it. I don't want to take anything away from Keegan though -- he's a special player and he's clearly working hard to add to his game. I'm just really happy that we finally have a support system in place to help our young players reach their potential sooner.

 

[kingsfan101]

at what point did I not give Kessler a chance? I’m very hopeful he can do well though 0-7 is not encouraging?

I’m positive about Keegan, Queta and Jones. But none of them are 3 and D defensive wings. My complaint is putting all of our eggs in Kessler and Slawson.

I think this point has been stressed enough times, but the above statement is just wrong.

Our starting 5, which will also play the bulk of minutes is Fox, Huerter, Keegan, Barnes, and Domas. One is free to dislike this starting 5, and think that we should have someone else play the 3, but it's just not true that we are relying on Kessler and Slawson.

Now, an argument could be made that instead of bringing back Barnes, Monte could have gotten a more natural 3, and moved Keegan to 4. Without knowing what was available, at what price, what the coaching staff thinks of replacing Barnes' production on and off the court, and their thoughts on moving Keegan to 4, it is impossible to say that a better move was available.

The backup 3 minutes will be shared by Kessler, and we might also see more of Kevin/Monk there if we play 3 guard lineups. I honestly don't expect Cole-Slaw to get lots of minutes during the regular season. So, again, you can dislike this arrangement, but let's acknowledge the likely minutes distribution. Else, the entire discussion becomes meaningless.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

at what point did I not give Kessler a chance? I’m very hopeful he can do well though 0-7 is not encouraging?

I’m positive about Keegan, Queta and Jones. But none of them are 3 and D defensive wings. My complaint is putting all of our eggs in Kessler and Slawson.

I'd rather put a couple million of eggs in Kessler and Slawson than 30M of eggs in a Jerami Grant. Flexibility! It's a high value approach.

 

[sactowndog]

Agree. I think he has a real future. I had to laugh that he is a better overall three point shooter than Brooks. Brooks is apparently the gold standard, so it just made me laugh to discover that Kessler already shoots better (and without the annoying volume of brooks).

catch and shoot 3’s

Kessler Edwards. 32.1%
Dillon Brooks. 35.6%

now I agree Brooks takes a lot of dumb shots but he is a much better catch and shoot 3 point shooter than Edwards currently.

BTW. It’s not that hard too look up the data before spouting off.

 

[sactowndog]

I think this point has been stressed enough times, but the above statement is just wrong.

Our starting 5, which will also play the bulk of minutes is Fox, Huerter, Keegan, Barnes, and Domas. One is free to dislike this starting 5, and think that we should have someone else play the 3, but it's just not true that we are relying on Kessler and Slawson.

Now, an argument could be made that instead of bringing back Barnes, Monte could have gotten a more natural 3, and moved Keegan to 4. Without knowing what was available, at what price, what the coaching staff thinks of replacing Barnes' production on and off the court, and their thoughts on moving Keegan to 4, it is impossible to say that a better move was available.

The backup 3 minutes will be shared by Kessler, and we might also see more of Kevin/Monk there if we play 3 guard lineups. I honestly don't expect Cole-Slaw to get lots of minutes during the regular season. So, again, you can dislike this arrangement, but let's acknowledge the likely minutes distribution. Else, the entire discussion becomes meaningless.

maybe. We need a defensive 3 which isn’t Barnes to step up. It’s why Mike started the season starting KZ. Barnes is best at stretch 4 and would be awesome coming off the bench as he can get his own shot.