Looking ahead to the 2023 Draft

[Ozymandias]

Trayce Jackson Davis comes in at 6'8.25" without shoes, 8'10 standing reach and a 7'1" wingspan ---- I'd have thought he'd have tested slightly more explosive than 36.5" max vert but thats rather inconsequential... All in all, I'd say he had an as expected combine, not a winner not a loser, par for the course.

 

[Ozymandias]

So Anthony Black registered a 39" vert! thats very good for him, didnt expect him to outjump his Razorback teammates Jordan Walsh and Ricky Council IV

 

[Ozymandias]

Anyone know where I can find DaRon Holmes strength and conditioning results?

Measurements were good, for sure, he's an inch taller than Adem Bona. 6'9 without shoes is very good for him, 9'1" standing reach good, over 7'foot wingspan decent.

 

[Ozymandias]

Omari Moore's listed standing reach of 9'1.5" has to be a data entry error, right?

 

[iowamcnabb]

 

[Ozymandias]

Did Jamie Jaquez pull a Pat Connaughton? (sandbagging his standing reach measurement to boost his vertical)

If anyone pulled a Pat Connaughton this year, I'm gonna say it was Jamie Jacquez, 8'3.5" standing reach is suspiciously low for a player standing 6'6 barefoot resulting in a 39" vert..

 

[SacTownKid]

Did Jamie Jaquez pull a Pat Connaughton? (sandbagging his standing reach measurement to boost his vertical)

If anyone pulled a Pat Connaughton this year, I'm gonna say it was Jamie Jacquez, 8'3.5" standing reach is suspiciously low for a player standing 6'6 barefoot resulting in a 39" vert..

Combine measurements are iffy anyway. Such a meat market. I watched a youtube video by the Raptors after they drafted Scottie Barnes and the combine had Barnes at like 7'2 1/2" or something on wingspan and the Raptors measurement on camera came out at like 7'4" and some change or something.

 

[Ozymandias]

Combine measurements are iffy anyway. Such a meat market. I watched a youtube video by the Raptors after they drafted Scottie Barnes and the combine had Barnes at like 7'2 1/2" or something on wingspan and the Raptors measurement on camera came out at like 7'4" and some change or something.

It sucks DX doesnt have their measurement database available to the public, but I highly agree with this, there's some margin for error, things can change day to day. Having the same players back at the combine multiple years, which is increasingly a thing, is gonna highlight that even more, you can see it with Drew Timme's measurements for example.

But that being said some measurements for some players are a matter of importance, or illustrate progress a classic example would be a skinny player who put on good weight or a hefty bigman who leaned down and tested well on vert.

I do remember sorting thru DX's database and concluding that at about 18% bodyfat there was a signifigant decrease in the quality of player down to fringe/3rd string guys or what we'd refer to now as g-leaguers.

 

[Ozymandias]

So the Spurs and Coach Pop are the big winners of the Wembanyama sweepstakes! Wembanyama's PF moving forward will be Jeremy Sochan, they sure lucked out.

I have to say, it's better for the Kings if he landed in the east, this only sways the balance of power further out west.


What a weird spot the Trailblazers find themselves in at #3 (unless Charlotte takes Scoot Henderson 2nd)... You'd think they'd want to trade that pick if Wembanyama and then Brandon Miller go 1-2. Houston and Detroit can't be all that happy with landing 4 and 5 either.. I wonder if we'll see some turbulence in the top5..

 

[sactowndog]

So the Spurs and Coach Pop are the big winners of the Wembanyama sweepstakes! Wembanyama's PF moving forward will be Jeremy Sochan, they sure lucked out.

I have to say, it's better for the Kings if he landed in the east, this only sways the balance of power further out west.


What a weird spot the Trailblazers find themselves in at #3 (unless Charlotte takes Scoot Henderson 2nd)... You'd think they'd want to trade that pick if Wembanyama and then Brandon Miller go 1-2. Houston and Detroit can't be all that happy with landing 4 and 5 either.. I wonder if we'll see some turbulence in the top5..

Blazers are going to have to make a call. Go all in on Dame and trade Scoot or trade Dame and build around a Scoot / Sharpe backcourt.

 

[sactowndog]

Did Jamie Jaquez pull a Pat Connaughton? (sandbagging his standing reach measurement to boost his vertical)

If anyone pulled a Pat Connaughton this year, I'm gonna say it was Jamie Jacquez, 8'3.5" standing reach is suspiciously low for a player standing 6'6 barefoot resulting in a 39" vert..

would be dumb as lots of teams consider standing reach as one of the most important measurements

 

[sactowndog]

Look at his FT%. Many poor FT shooters that have one year where their 3pt% pops in college wind up being AAAA players that can't shoot well enough to stay in the big show. Davion Mitchell had a very similar shooting progression himself at Baylor. He would more than likely be struggling to stay in the league if he didn't have an elite defensive skillset.

It's not a foregone conclusion that Colby can't shoot but it's a big enough red flag for me to take a harder look at other players that have the same shooting red flags with bigger upside potential if that's all that's available when it's time to pick.

yep as Davion has shown FT% is the most predictive in projecting pro shooting ability.

 

[sactowndog]

We're sitting pretty right now if players like Max Lewis and GG Jackson are projected lower than our pick. Feeling confident we get a good player in the first.

If Lewis and Murray are both their which one do you take

 

[The_Jamal]

If Lewis and Murray are both their which one do you take

Murray. I have them basically in the same tier and I think off-court/chemistry stuff by playing with Keegan would boost him in this situation for me. I'm also far more confident Murray is going to be a good pro than Max Lewis, who has a much larger range of outcomes with his development.

May be a leak in my thinking though where I'm overrating the brother connection. I'd still rank Murray ahead of Max Lewis, even without Keegan on the squad, but there's no doubt you can dream bigger with Lewis in what he can develop into. I'm not used to thinking about late round FRP and how much you should value just taking an upside swing and not worrying too much if that guy busts out or not.

 

[Ozymandias]

I am personally of the belief we simply wont be in such a dire situation as to have to choose between Kris Murray and Max, I feel like wing players projected infront of us will fall and its more likely we'd be choosing between one of them and Murray / Max.

Max is much more of a SG to me while Murray is the combo forward, so its not exactly an apples to apples deal either.

Kris Murray is a guy who I've said before, if you believe that his 3pt shooting will flourish in a situation like ours, a situation very different from how he was defended this season at Iowa, that is a big reason to select him. Stands to reason he'd be one of the most ready to contribute right away, but there's also a matter of how many minutes there is for him.

Max Lewis is a guy you take so you can throw him the ball on offense and he can do some fancy crossovers and try and score the ball without draining the shotclock, and you try and bring along other aspects of his game at babysteps, so it's a bit different. Max offers this sort of exotic offensive look for us though, in a best case scenario.

 

[Ozymandias]

Rumor is Chris Livingston thinks he's gonna get drafted.

He was a guy who there was some rumors that his camp wanted to pull him out of school mid-season, he wanted to finish the season and ended up doing very well in the final like 15 games or so.

word is his camp simply thinks hes built like a pro and some team is gonna take him. Measured 6'6" barefoot, 6'11.25" wingspan and 219lbs at the combine and one of the slower lane agility drills that was tested.

 

[Ozymandias]

This years combine invites failed the Rudy Gay max vert mark btw, most classes do I think.

I'm pretty sure, IIRC, Rudy Gay touched 12'3" at the combine.

Looks like only 3 players touched over 12' this year, Zach Edey, Julian Phillips and Olivier Maxence-Prosper

 

[SacTownKid]

This years combine invites failed the Rudy Gay max vert mark btw, most classes do I think.

I'm pretty sure, IIRC, Rudy Gay touched 12'3" at the combine.

Looks like only 3 players touched over 12' this year, Zach Edey, Julian Phillips and Olivier Maxence-Prosper

Wouldn't mind seeing the Kings land Timme or Edey with a 2nd rounder.

 

[206Fan]

I think it's going to be really interesting to see what Charlotte does with the #2 pick. Do they draft Scoot, or will it be a Fox-Haliburton situation? Neither guy strikes me with Fox's ego (going back to when he didn't want the Kings to draft Luka), but you want both guys to have the ball in their hands at the same time to be effective.

Do they go with Brandon Miller and his off-court controversy while very likely bringing back Miles Bridges at the same time? Seems like a PR nightmare.. but people would quickly shut up if they're good.

Or do they swing for the fences and go with Amen? You run into the same issue with Scoot... but you'd have a 6'7 backcourt and I think Amen could compliment Melo better.

 

[206Fan]

Blazers are going to have to make a call. Go all in on Dame and trade Scoot or trade Dame and build around a Scoot / Sharpe backcourt.

I don't think they'd need to pick at all. If Scoot or Miller is the pick at #3, they're NBA ready day 1. I know Wemby is a GOAT prospect, but they'd easily be leading ROY candidates any other year. I think they could play with Dame. Maybe have Scoot come off the bench first because you also have Simmons at SG. I think Amen could be the dark horse pick at #3. They really swung for the fences with Sharpe last year, and do they do it again? Not sure

 

[Ozymandias]

Wouldn't mind seeing the Kings land Timme or Edey with a 2nd rounder.

I prefer Kalkbrenner over Edey but all of these C's (and a few more like Vukcevic, Bona, Gueye, Grant Nelson, Colin Castleton) could be interesting.

Timme never won the chip at Gonzaga, but to me he plays winning basketball and he hustles his ass off, so I do kinda wonder how that'd fit around here too.

 

[Ozymandias]

who does Orlando take at 6 ? Thats what I wanna know..

I feel like Jordan Hawkins is good for them at 11 but I'm unsure about 6 - Cam Whitmore, Taylor Hendricks?

 

[PorchSurfin]

I thoroughly dislike this thread because of the wildly differing opinions. Baja seems to be the only one who can pretty well lock down which players will be something at the next level.

Outside of that, it's always a bunch of armchairs throwing out some seriously random guesses.

I propose a new format. Pick a non lottery player, explain why you think he will be worth something after pick #14, and after the rookie year let's reconvene to see who has the best scouting eye outside of the draft.

 

[Ozymandias]

I thoroughly dislike this thread because of the wildly differing opinions. Baja seems to be the only one who can pretty well lock down which players will be something at the next level.

Outside of that, it's always a bunch of armchairs throwing out some seriously random guesses.

I propose a new format. Pick a non lottery player, explain why you think he will be worth something after pick #14, and after the rookie year let's reconvene to see who has the best scouting eye outside of the draft.

I mean thats not really how these sorta things work..Why after the rookie year? Isnt that completely arbitrary? Isn't that going to produce biased results towards older players? isnt that putting a bunch of things on different timelines all on the same timeline for no good reason?

Seems like a fools way to measure a scouting eye, whittling the feild down to 1, I'd trust someone whos got a grasp over the whole field... Is Jerry West an incompetent front office guy because he took Thabeet over James Harden in your eyes? This is an inexact science, mistakes are made. If you follow someone who "gets it right" this year, what do you do the next year when they get it wrong, find someone else who gets it right til they get it wrong then rinse and repeat indefinitely? sounds like chasing rainbows to me.

Wildly differing opinions is why you dislike this thread? what?!?! You'd prefer if everyone agrees? what kinda discussion forum is that? sounds more like a cult.

When I see sort of instant gratification seeking comments like this I always think of Lou Williams, who averaged over 20PPG for the first time at AGE 31 in 2017-2018. Things change. I'll never understand pigeon holing choices like this unnecessarily, its like panicking in a bad situation to me, only makes things worse.

 

[Ozymandias]

I thoroughly dislike this thread because of the wildly differing opinions. Baja seems to be the only one who can pretty well lock down which players will be something at the next level.

Outside of tha, it's always a bunch of armchairs throwing out some seriously random guesses.

I propose a new format. Pick a non lottery player, explain why you think he will be worth something after pick #14, and after the rookie year let's reconvene to see who has the best scouting eye outside of the draft.

Exactly what you say you dont like, is exactly what your doing in this post.. Pot calling the kettle black..

where were you when the games were going on? now its the offseason and u show up to this thread talking about armchair opinions hahahah thats rich.. we're supposed to believe you have a grasp at knowing who knows what around here, when you're nowhere to be found during the actual games? Now that sounds like an armchair throwing out some seriously random guesses to me..

gotta love these results-oriented fans.. for me its like a hobby, a passion, its about the love of the game.. too many losers make it all about winning or losing, whos right and whos wrong, thats not what the games really about. sitting there trying to pigeon hole results is pitiful, to me, this is more like a constant celebration, an intersection of hardworking and talented individuals with stories that all redirect on one night.


We've reached the portion of the draft process where the casuals start showing up and comparing Keegan Murray to Elton Brand because he uses a dropstep.

we've reached the portion of the process where casuals start showing up to give their opinions of other posters opinions, while avoiding actually talking about the players at all... exactly like this guys post.. So thats my cue, I'll be in the 2024 thread sharing my armchair opinions.

Too many bad actors who can't even remotely hold up the guise they watched the games during the season show up right about now and start acting like they know better.. The conversations that follow are almost always listless and feel like your trying to simplify something for someone whos trying to confirm biases they've picked up from the media or someone on twitter and are really too lazy to learn empirically. So I'll bid this thread adieu. the portal and next years draft is quickly becoming more interesting to me anyways as this draft settles in more everyday. I just wanted to make it to the measurements.

 

[bajaden]

Trayce Jackson Davis comes in at 6'8.25" without shoes, 8'10 standing reach and a 7'1" wingspan ---- I'd have thought he'd have tested slightly more explosive than 36.5" max vert but thats rather inconsequential... All in all, I'd say he had an as expected combine, not a winner not a loser, par for the course.

Where I think he actually helped himself is in the 3 star 3 Pt shot exercise where he went 12 of 25 and his form looked very good. He proved that he does have a 3 pt shot, and it looks like something that he didn't just learn. The exercise isn't the same as shooting in a game, but for a player that didn't even take one the entire year, it's definitely a plus. Even his measurements helped a little. He was listed at 6'9" all year but it's more likely he's closer to 6'9.5" in shoes, which is the only measurement I care about. When they start playing in their bare feet, then I'll care about that.

 

[bajaden]

Murray. I have them basically in the same tier and I think off-court/chemistry stuff by playing with Keegan would boost him in this situation for me. I'm also far more confident Murray is going to be a good pro than Max Lewis, who has a much larger range of outcomes with his development.

May be a leak in my thinking though where I'm overrating the brother connection. I'd still rank Murray ahead of Max Lewis, even without Keegan on the squad, but there's no doubt you can dream bigger with Lewis in what he can develop into. I'm not used to thinking about late round FRP and how much you should value just taking an upside swing and not worrying too much if that guy busts out or not.

I love Kris Murray, but if I have to make that choice, I'm taking Max. Partly because of the upside, and because he and Murray are two entirely different kind of players. Kris is a lot like Keegan in style of play, and there's nothing wrong with that, but we already have Keegan, and I think having a different style of player on the floor makes it harder for the defense. Keegan is a let the game come to me type of player. He doesn't make many mistakes and he's efficient.

Max is a go make something happen type of player. He's aggressive, always ready and willing to attack. He can score from anywhere on the floor. He has great handles and can create his own shot. The downside is that at times he gets a bit loose with the ball and turns it over. He'll force a bad shot when double teamed, and at times still make that shot. There are players that are just average athletes but are very skilled and they become solid NBA players.

There are players that are elite athletes but lack the skill level of the other players that still become solid rotational players. And then there are players that are elite athletes but also have the great skillset. And many times, they become stars. Max Lewis falls into that last group. He has all the tools, and he's an elite athlete. I usually don't bet on athletic upside unless the player is very skilled. But I'm willing to bet on Lewis. I've been wrong of course, but I like to think I've been right more than wrong. Having said all that, if we end up drafting Kris instead of Lewis, I'll be a bit disappointed, but still happy that we got a very good player.

By the way, I do think that Kris and Keegan do have some differences. Not so much in style or skillset, but in mindset. I think that Kris is a more aggressive player overall than Keegan. Not in the same sense as Max Lewis being more aggressive, but that Kris tends to force things a bit more. I think eventually he can become a very good player!

 

[bajaden]

If Lewis and Murray are both their which one do you take

Lewis!

 

[bajaden]

Wouldn't mind seeing the Kings land Timme or Edey with a 2nd rounder.

Why? I don't think Edey is capable of playing in the NBA. He can't just stand under the basket like he did at Purdue. They happen to have a 3 second rule in the NBA. They don't in college. He has zero game away from the basket. If he ends up one on one with a PG, he's toast.

I love Timme, but he's a borderline NBA player. I do think he'd be able to score in the post in the NBA and be a decent rebounder, but I think he would suffer greatly on defense. At best Timme would be sitting at the end of the bench. I hope I'm wrong about him because I'd love to see him have a career. I think he might have a future in Europe..

 

[bajaden]

I am personally of the belief we simply wont be in such a dire situation as to have to choose between Kris Murray and Max, I feel like wing players projected infront of us will fall and its more likely we'd be choosing between one of them and Murray / Max.

Max is much more of a SG to me while Murray is the combo forward, so its not exactly an apples to apples deal either.

Kris Murray is a guy who I've said before, if you believe that his 3pt shooting will flourish in a situation like ours, a situation very different from how he was defended this season at Iowa, that is a big reason to select him. Stands to reason he'd be one of the most ready to contribute right away, but there's also a matter of how many minutes there is for him.

Max Lewis is a guy you take so you can throw him the ball on offense and he can do some fancy crossovers and try and score the ball without draining the shotclock, and you try and bring along other aspects of his game at babysteps, so it's a bit different. Max offers this sort of exotic offensive look for us though, in a best case scenario.

I think you're fairly spot on in describing both Murray and Lewis. I do think Lewis can play SF. He's going to be around 6'7.5" in shoes, but I agree that he has SG skills and plays a lot like a SG. I don't think we can go wrong with either one, I just think that Lewis has the tools to be a star down the road. But you're also right that Murray is probably more ready to step in and play right now and Max has some polishing to do. So it's pick your poison!