Looking to the year ahead.
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
The problem is that you are comparing reality and fantasy. It is easy to say "this is what I would have done, and it is better than what Monte did," because Monte operates in reality, and we all have the luxury of operating in fantasy. You ask "Would you rather have DiVincenzo, Duarte, Vassell, O'Neale, Holiday, #9, & 2023 SAC 1st or Monk, Huerter, & Murray?" as if that is a reality that Monte said no to. Getting Vassel and #9 sounds great. Getting studs from Toronto sounds great. Getting Royce O'Neale sounds great. But do we know any of that was actually available to Monte?
What we know is:
- we could have traded #4 for #6 and Durate
- Detroit says that it was "blown away" by the offers it got for #5, but Detroit didn't take any of those franchise altering deals, and nothing has been leaked about what was on the table
- lots of teams talked about "being interested" in moving up to #4 or #5, but we aren't aware of what any of those packages were, or how real they were
- we did trade for Huerter (so we know that offer was actually available)
- San Antonio did not trade #9 or Vassel
- Toronto has not traded anyone
My point is that, yeah, it is easy to say what we would do, and then judge Monte around that. But the reality is that we have no idea whether any of the things we would "do" are actually doable. It takes two to trade. I would think that if Anunoby is available we have called and made an offer. Same for Vassel. Same for all of these deals. I mean it is Monte's full time job (a job he is desperately trying to cling to) to make these calls and explore these options. The problem is that this board sees a deal not get done and assumes it is because we didn't do the work (Vlade PTSD) when the reality is that we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, what other teams are offering, and what teams like San Antonio and Toronto really want.
What we know is:
- we could have traded #4 for #6 and Durate
- Detroit says that it was "blown away" by the offers it got for #5, but Detroit didn't take any of those franchise altering deals, and nothing has been leaked about what was on the table
- lots of teams talked about "being interested" in moving up to #4 or #5, but we aren't aware of what any of those packages were, or how real they were
- we did trade for Huerter (so we know that offer was actually available)
- San Antonio did not trade #9 or Vassel
- Toronto has not traded anyone
My point is that, yeah, it is easy to say what we would do, and then judge Monte around that. But the reality is that we have no idea whether any of the things we would "do" are actually doable. It takes two to trade. I would think that if Anunoby is available we have called and made an offer. Same for Vassel. Same for all of these deals. I mean it is Monte's full time job (a job he is desperately trying to cling to) to make these calls and explore these options. The problem is that this board sees a deal not get done and assumes it is because we didn't do the work (Vlade PTSD) when the reality is that we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, what other teams are offering, and what teams like San Antonio and Toronto really want.
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He wasn't a good defender in college and his advanced impact defensive stats last season don't suggest he was a good defender either.
DRAPM = -0.69
LA-DRAPM = -0.63
DLEBRON = -1.33
DRAPTOR = -1.2
DRPM = -1.01
DBPM = -1.0
Def On/Off = +3.0
I think Huerter's defense is okay, but I don't look at him as someone who is going to improve our 27th ranked defense. His calling card is his shooting, playmaking, & IQ.
Davion obviously has tremendous defensive potential, but he's a bench player on our roster as him & Fox on the floor together were a very ineffective pairing last year with our other core starters. Meanwhile, Fox & DiVincenzo were a very effective pairing last year with our other core starters:
DRAPM = -0.69
LA-DRAPM = -0.63
DLEBRON = -1.33
DRAPTOR = -1.2
DRPM = -1.01
DBPM = -1.0
Def On/Off = +3.0
I think Huerter's defense is okay, but I don't look at him as someone who is going to improve our 27th ranked defense. His calling card is his shooting, playmaking, & IQ.
Davion obviously has tremendous defensive potential, but he's a bench player on our roster as him & Fox on the floor together were a very ineffective pairing last year with our other core starters. Meanwhile, Fox & DiVincenzo were a very effective pairing last year with our other core starters:
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, & Sabonis / Off Court: NA = 113.6 OFF RTG / 117.5 DEF RTG / -3.9 NET RTG (278 minutes)
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, Sabonis, & DiVincenzo / Off Court: NA = 111.0 OFF RTG / 105.2 DEF RTG / +5.8 NET RTG (83 minutes)
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, Sabonis, & Mitchell / Off Court: NA = 109.6 OFF RTG / 130.8 DEF RTG / -21.2 NET RTG (51 minutes)
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, Sabonis, & DiVincenzo / Off Court: Mitchell = 115.7 OFF RTG / 97.9 DEF RTG / +17.8 NET RTG (66 minutes)
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, Sabonis, & Mitchell / Off Court: DiVincenzo= 118.1 OFF RTG / 127.8 DEF RTG / -9.7 NET RTG (34 minutes)
Seems like a double standard. You get to state conclusively that we should have signed DDV for 4.5M per year (or with a little more for a Sacramento tax), but gilly can't state that it wasn't available? We are all peddling in assumptions and belief. That is a message board. You don't know the reality any more than he does. Nobody is going to be able to produce any facts about what DDV would have signed for because DDV didn't sign with us. It is all guesswork about what his value to us would have been.
I'm basing that on his agent publicly crapping on the team and his role last year. Seems obvious to me that those comments represent Ddv and him not wanting to be here. Can't blame him, coming from a championship Bucks team to lowly Sacramento.
If the Kings and Ddv had a future together, the minimum starting point was 3 years x 7mil QO. My belief is the Ddv/Kings trial run was over at the end of last year. Makes sense for him to go to GS and be a guy off the bench. Good role for him and hunting for jewelry with Steph and Klay.
If the Kings and Ddv had a future together, the minimum starting point was 3 years x 7mil QO. My belief is the Ddv/Kings trial run was over at the end of last year. Makes sense for him to go to GS and be a guy off the bench. Good role for him and hunting for jewelry with Steph and Klay.
Unreal that there is still defense of DDV and…now all of the sudden Holiday and Harkless were keepers?
The reality was DDV and Holiday for that matter were checkers on offense. Holiday age wise, does not fit this team. He still has some game left but no thanks to him.
DDV clearly has his own agenda which is to build his own value based on how he played when he was with us. He does some good things on the defensive side but offensively, Huerter is flat out better, Monk is flat out better. The non-playoff teams are the worst 3 point shooting teams, that is a fact. Monte just helped Fox and Ox potentially play better with these additions. Defensively, Monte hired defensive whiz Mike Brown. The team is improved talent wise. The team chemistry has great potential compared to when Buddy and Bagley were here and now apparently whatever crap DDV and his agent were creating.
The reality was DDV and Holiday for that matter were checkers on offense. Holiday age wise, does not fit this team. He still has some game left but no thanks to him.
DDV clearly has his own agenda which is to build his own value based on how he played when he was with us. He does some good things on the defensive side but offensively, Huerter is flat out better, Monk is flat out better. The non-playoff teams are the worst 3 point shooting teams, that is a fact. Monte just helped Fox and Ox potentially play better with these additions. Defensively, Monte hired defensive whiz Mike Brown. The team is improved talent wise. The team chemistry has great potential compared to when Buddy and Bagley were here and now apparently whatever crap DDV and his agent were creating.
The podcast rattled off 4 or 5 defensive metrics that were really good and suggested he might be on the upswing.
I wouldn’t call him a good defender either but maybe he has some potential there.
Ultimately, Monte may be betting on potential with Monk not to mention the face Donte didnt want to be here
I wouldn’t call him a good defender either but maybe he has some potential there.
Ultimately, Monte may be betting on potential with Monk not to mention the face Donte didnt want to be here
We have no way of knowing what trades were available. Totally agree. I just wanted to give my take on how I would have approached the offseason. I think it's fair to say that I could have worded some of that better to make it seem like not everything was 100% on the table.
If nobody was looking to make a deal for #4 or let's just say nobody was willing to make any trades with us for any player (Barnes, Holmes, etc.), I would have...
That would have left us with a roster of...
PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - DiVincenzo / Davis / Ellis
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Harkless
PF - Murray / Lyles / Liddell / Metu
C - Sabonis / Holmes / Len
...while still having ownership over all of our future picks and ~$40 mil in cap space next offseason with Fox, Mitchell, DiVincenzo, Ellis, Murray, Liddell, Sabonis, Holmes, & 2023 SAC 1st under contract. DiVincenzo would have at least given us one reliable defender in the starting unit. Fox is below average, Barnes is below average to average, Sabonis is below average, and Murray will hopefully be good one day but not many rookies are good defenders right out of the gate.
As I've said before and I'll say again, I don't think the moves McNair made are bad value. He didn't massively overpay Monk or sell the farm to land Huerter. What I do criticize is the vision he has for this team (e.g., offense & shooting with little regard to defense) and the constraint on our flexibility with how our 1st round picks are tied up now. I wouldn't have made the deals he made because it appears that we have stark differences on what you need to be a winning team in this league.
The X factor here is Brown. If Brown can take this collection of below average to average defenders that McNair has assembled and turn them into an average defensive team, then he's worth his weight in gold.
If nobody was looking to make a deal for #4 or let's just say nobody was willing to make any trades with us for any player (Barnes, Holmes, etc.), I would have...
- Drafted Keegan Murray at #4
- Drafted EJ Liddell at #37
- Drafted Keon Ellis at #49 (didn't know who Sasha was so not going to pretend like I did)
- Extended a qualifying offer to Donte DiVincenzo & matched him up to a deal similar to Holmes
That would have left us with a roster of...
PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - DiVincenzo / Davis / Ellis
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Harkless
PF - Murray / Lyles / Liddell / Metu
C - Sabonis / Holmes / Len
...while still having ownership over all of our future picks and ~$40 mil in cap space next offseason with Fox, Mitchell, DiVincenzo, Ellis, Murray, Liddell, Sabonis, Holmes, & 2023 SAC 1st under contract. DiVincenzo would have at least given us one reliable defender in the starting unit. Fox is below average, Barnes is below average to average, Sabonis is below average, and Murray will hopefully be good one day but not many rookies are good defenders right out of the gate.
As I've said before and I'll say again, I don't think the moves McNair made are bad value. He didn't massively overpay Monk or sell the farm to land Huerter. What I do criticize is the vision he has for this team (e.g., offense & shooting with little regard to defense) and the constraint on our flexibility with how our 1st round picks are tied up now. I wouldn't have made the deals he made because it appears that we have stark differences on what you need to be a winning team in this league.
The X factor here is Brown. If Brown can take this collection of below average to average defenders that McNair has assembled and turn them into an average defensive team, then he's worth his weight in gold.
Are you referring to the story Ham broke? Do we consider him a reliable source? Nothing on the court suggested to me that DiVincenzo was unhappy nor do I believe has he ever had that type of reputation in college or the pros. He's always seemed like a very team oriented player.
Besides, he averaged more minutes here (26.6) than he did in any other season with the exception of one season (27.7). He really considers that tanking his value? I wouldn't.
Again, DiVincenzo was a RFA. Let him go seek the best deal he can get and we can make a decision at that point.
Besides, he averaged more minutes here (26.6) than he did in any other season with the exception of one season (27.7). He really considers that tanking his value? I wouldn't.
Again, DiVincenzo was a RFA. Let him go seek the best deal he can get and we can make a decision at that point.
I was the biggest DDV fanboy on the board, but I think it's pretty clear that the Ham reports were correct and the relationship just wasn't repairable. So instead of DDV taking the QO and being pissed/locker room distraction all year; move on now and don't deal with a Bagley/Buddy situation during the season like we did last year.
And I talked with SactownKid about this with the Huerter trade; what happens if no star becomes available in the next 2 seasons? What are you realistically getting with expirings+picks if you aren't trading any of the core? And even if a star does become available, do we want to pay the Gobert-level price tag? Being aggressive and getting Huerter gives you another young starting caliber player and shows Sabonis we're serious about putting talent around him. That's what this team needs to be about; Convincing Sabonis that we're capable of being a constant playoff team the next 5-7 years so he signs his extension. Otherwise all of this is for nothing. You can sit and wait for the perfect deal to come around, but if you wait too long and don't get Sabonis the talent... he's out the door.
And I talked with SactownKid about this with the Huerter trade; what happens if no star becomes available in the next 2 seasons? What are you realistically getting with expirings+picks if you aren't trading any of the core? And even if a star does become available, do we want to pay the Gobert-level price tag? Being aggressive and getting Huerter gives you another young starting caliber player and shows Sabonis we're serious about putting talent around him. That's what this team needs to be about; Convincing Sabonis that we're capable of being a constant playoff team the next 5-7 years so he signs his extension. Otherwise all of this is for nothing. You can sit and wait for the perfect deal to come around, but if you wait too long and don't get Sabonis the talent... he's out the door.
I agree with most of @twslam07. Next year boils down to:
1. Surround Fox with shooters and average (everyone except Domas) and above average passers (Domas). Hope those passers will create enough connecting and ball movement to hide Fox's all pace, black holing tendencies.
2. Pray to god Brown can walk on water and develop a defensive system to hide two bad defenders (Fox and Domas), one bad to average defender (Huerter), one solid defender (Barnes), and TBD (Murray).
Essentially, the Kings trying to copy the Dubs without Curry on offense and without Draymond on defense. I got my popcorn ready:
1. Surround Fox with shooters and average (everyone except Domas) and above average passers (Domas). Hope those passers will create enough connecting and ball movement to hide Fox's all pace, black holing tendencies.
2. Pray to god Brown can walk on water and develop a defensive system to hide two bad defenders (Fox and Domas), one bad to average defender (Huerter), one solid defender (Barnes), and TBD (Murray).
Essentially, the Kings trying to copy the Dubs without Curry on offense and without Draymond on defense. I got my popcorn ready:
I don't know if the problem with Donte was Donte or his agent but the funny thing about agents is their a-holes one day and nice guys the next. I alluded to this when we signed Monk but nobody else seemed to point out - the agent who announced the signing is the very same agent who demanded his client Bagley be traded prior to opening night last season.
Someone thought DDV deserved a lot more
It seems DDV's agent was leaking to Ham. Honestly that alone might be enough in Monte land to be a cardinal sin. Monte has completely frozen Ham out and Ham isn't shy about crying about it.
I suspect it went down like this - agent tries to flex to get Kings to showcase DDV to get the higher QO. It was always going to be tough, and even with more minutes as DDV eased into the rotation he missed it. Agent told Ham they were still upset, which is why a month after the report Ham went all in on this. Agent probably told Monte they were looking for full MLE money. Monte probably offered a 3/20 type deal. They said they will shop around so Monte pulled the QO so they couldn't create another Bogi scenario and pursued the Huerter deal. Monk was probably already incoming with his Fox ties so Monte knew he didn't have to break the bank.
I could be way off base but after the failed Bogi and Lakers trade last season, I imagine he has limited time for BS and for agents trying to publicly work the angles. He may have liked DDV but the agent crossed a bridge too far and he just decided that sort of behavior would not be rewarded.
Someone thought DDV deserved a lot more
It seems DDV's agent was leaking to Ham. Honestly that alone might be enough in Monte land to be a cardinal sin. Monte has completely frozen Ham out and Ham isn't shy about crying about it.
I suspect it went down like this - agent tries to flex to get Kings to showcase DDV to get the higher QO. It was always going to be tough, and even with more minutes as DDV eased into the rotation he missed it. Agent told Ham they were still upset, which is why a month after the report Ham went all in on this. Agent probably told Monte they were looking for full MLE money. Monte probably offered a 3/20 type deal. They said they will shop around so Monte pulled the QO so they couldn't create another Bogi scenario and pursued the Huerter deal. Monk was probably already incoming with his Fox ties so Monte knew he didn't have to break the bank.
I could be way off base but after the failed Bogi and Lakers trade last season, I imagine he has limited time for BS and for agents trying to publicly work the angles. He may have liked DDV but the agent crossed a bridge too far and he just decided that sort of behavior would not be rewarded.
P
But that doesn’t make sense, OKC drafted all those players, with the exception of SGA who they traded for before he became what he is today. OKC got all these draft picks through trading their players of value. They didn’t spend any money which I think lends a hand towards The_Jamal’s initial statement. What’s salary cap do for a team like Sacramento where agents tell their clients to steer clear of?
But that doesn’t make sense, OKC drafted all those players, with the exception of SGA who they traded for before he became what he is today. OKC got all these draft picks through trading their players of value. They didn’t spend any money which I think lends a hand towards The_Jamal’s initial statement. What’s salary cap do for a team like Sacramento where agents tell their clients to steer clear of?
Not sure why there is so much hate for a player that had such a positive impact on the floor for us when playing alongside our core players? You think you'd want to keep the players that showed good chemistry with our core guys, no?
Just DiVincenzo:
DiVincenzo with our core players:
You can see how much of an impact he is contributing defensively in these lineups. It's underrated. Offensively, the ball would not have been in his hands nearly as much if he was in the starting lineup. And on top of that, his shooting was coming back as he was getting healthier and healthier. He shot 42.2% on C&S 3s with us last year and took about 5.9 C&S 3s per 36 minutes. It's his pull-up 3PT shooting which impacts his overall 3P%.
So yes, there is definitely still a "defense" of DiVincenzo, and it doesn't take much digging to arrive at that defense either.
Just DiVincenzo:
- On Court: DiVincenzo / Off Court: NA = 110.8 OFF RTG / 113.6 DEF RTG / -2.8 NET RTG (637 minutes)
- On Court: NA / Off Court: DiVincenzo = 108.7 OFF RTG / 120.1 DEF RTG / -11.4 NET RTG (537 minutes)
- DiVincenzo On/Off = +8.6
DiVincenzo with our core players:
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, Sabonis, & DiVincenzo / Off Court: NA = 111.0 OFF RTG / 105.2 DEF RTG / +5.8 NET RTG (83 minutes)
- On Court: Fox, Barnes, Sabonis, & DiVincenzo / Off Court: Mitchell = 115.7 OFF RTG / 97.9 DEF RTG / +17.8 NET RTG (66 minutes)
- On Court: NA / Off Court: NA = 109.8 OFF RTG / 116.6 DEF RTG / -6.8 NET RTG (1174 minutes)
You can see how much of an impact he is contributing defensively in these lineups. It's underrated. Offensively, the ball would not have been in his hands nearly as much if he was in the starting lineup. And on top of that, his shooting was coming back as he was getting healthier and healthier. He shot 42.2% on C&S 3s with us last year and took about 5.9 C&S 3s per 36 minutes. It's his pull-up 3PT shooting which impacts his overall 3P%.
So yes, there is definitely still a "defense" of DiVincenzo, and it doesn't take much digging to arrive at that defense either.
A lot of agents are terrible, selfish individuals who care very little about their client and their desires, but more so about the percentage they are pulling in at the end of the day once a contract is signed. Look at Freddie Freeman with the dodgers now, Freeman fired his agent after his agent didn’t tell him about the Braves last offer. Same thing happened with Le’Veon Bell before he joined the Jets.
I really liked DDV as I am sure others did as well. I'm inclined to believe most of the mess was his agent's doing. But maybe there was more. I thought he could be worth the MLE given the silly contracts that get handed out, but around the league they said no, even without having to make dumb bids to try to get the Kings to back off matching.
The DDV talk is just beating a dead horse though, he’s gone. Whether his wishes or his agents, he didn’t want to be here. That’s also an extremely small sample size that you are trying to use and relate it to an entire season. I think including his Advanced Impact numbers from when he was a Buck might give some clearer insight, and they were quite fine with the idea shipping him out.
A full Hali rebuild is just another treadmill chase. And a Presti rebuild is not an option OKC was in the finals when we were already 7-8 years into our current drought. There's no good will for a 3-4 year tank to then maybe get good. If it fails it fails. I still think we can be a playoff team with Fox-Sabonis-Murray. I'd be more than happy with a Blazers level team that is just in the playoffs every year and maybe has a surprise run to the WCF. Incidentally that is better than Philly has done despite "completing" their process five years ago.
Funny that you mention small sample size because we can definitely open this discussion up to his advanced impact stats during previous seasons prior to his injury? That bodes well for DiVincenzo.
So what's the summary? DiVincenzo has been a very impactful, winning player during his career. He got injured and had a slow start to this last season. He comes to Sacramento. His on/off is quite good & his shooting %s continue to climb as he recovers from his injury. He shows good chemistry with our core players leading to some of the most impactful lineups we had at the tail end of the season.
So what's the summary? DiVincenzo has been a very impactful, winning player during his career. He got injured and had a slow start to this last season. He comes to Sacramento. His on/off is quite good & his shooting %s continue to climb as he recovers from his injury. He shows good chemistry with our core players leading to some of the most impactful lineups we had at the tail end of the season.