Analyzing the Murray pick (Split from the Welcome thread)

[pdxKingsFan]

He did say that. But he did have a point. I’m pissed Mr. Jason Jones doesn’t cover the Kings for the Athletic anymore. And it’s because our team has been crap for too long.

I don't know what the Athletic pays per article. A few years back I dated this gal who was a freelance writer for various websites and she got $50 per article. The reason James doesn't have a TV job is because old media is dead. It's not a Sacramento thing, it's a national thing.

The bulk of Athletic articles I read are MLS and soccer related. Soccer fans are passionate and known for paying their own way and even refusing to work with management/be on payroll. So I am sure those writers are probably working for peanutes.

If I had to guess Jason was just not making a comfortable living working for the Athletic. He took that when the Kings dumped a full time beat reporter, so it was already likely a downgrade. And that's a thing that is just happening across the board. Local teams are being dumped for studio teams that can work multiple games across the country in an evening. Our media is a sorry state of affairs and that is it's own issue, much of it not fit for discussion here since it delves into verboten topics. James is a victim of that, to the extent he is a victim.

 

[captain bill]

I don't know what the Athletic pays per article. A few years back I dated this gal who was a freelance writer for various websites and she got $50 per article. The reason James doesn't have a TV job is because old media is dead. It's not a Sacramento thing, it's a national thing.

The bulk of Athletic articles I read are MLS and soccer related. Soccer fans are passionate and known for paying their own way and even refusing to work with management/be on payroll. So I am sure those writers are probably working for peanutes.

If I had to guess Jason was just not making a comfortable living working for the Athletic. He took that when the Kings dumped a full time beat reporter, so it was already likely a downgrade. And that's a thing that is just happening across the board. Local teams are being dumped for studio teams that can work multiple games across the country in an evening. Our media is a sorry state of affairs and that is it's own issue, much of it not fit for discussion here since it delves into verboten topics. James is a victim of that, to the extent he is a victim.

Jason Jones really obviously was never invested in the Kings. Honestly shocked to look him up and realize he’s been with the Bee for 16 years. Sure he’s from LA but Amick is too IIRC and he’s actually connected with the team and city in a real way and has an investment in the team that’s hard to fake. Ham seems to have that genuine connection but just not the chops. Morgan Ragan is a breath of fresh air and obviously the franchise has recognized that and is investing in her and Deuce & Mo podcast is showing there’s way to really put in work and dedication that people will respond to (no idea how their numbers are but the org gigs speak for themselves). I suspect she’ll be moving on to something bigger but there really just hasn’t been anyone worth paying attention on the Kings beat
to outside Amick for a long time but it’s clearly posdible

and let’s be honest sports writing has always been something of a side show outside of the few and far between , which is why forums and internet discussion have so easily supplanted the vast majority of columnists who’s output is barely distinguishable from the best fan content

 

[Tetsujin]

He did say that. But he did have a point. I’m pissed Mr. Jason Jones doesn’t cover the Kings for the Athletic anymore. And it’s because our team has been crap for too long.

Jason Jones also got promoted to being a culture feature writer for the Athletic so probably not the entire story

 

[KingsFanSince85]

The philosophy was supposedly that they get all their information on these guys during the season and the pre-draft stuff is really just a distraction that might tip their hand. I actually believe that, whether or not it's the right way to go is something different.

But it is a separate thing than Ham and others baselessly speculating that Monte passes over guys that don't kiss his ring. We didn't work out Haliburton or Mitchell. Mitchell in fact had no clue he was a target and seemed really confused when we drafted him, but I get the impression that he is fairly happy so far?

I believe you got this nailed. I’ve read a beat writer (don’t recall who it was now) say essentially the same thing. And it makes complete sense to me.

Not only that, the Hali and Davion examples you cited support the belief.

The KINGS would have had a ton of info on both players and clearly liked them considering they drafted them but didn’t feel the need to bring them in for workouts.

And nobody really connected either to McNair and the KINGS. Which is a positive thing that very well could have dissuaded others from trading up in front of them.

It’s always been my opinion that these front offices in the NFL and NBA over complicate the process by overvaluing private workouts vs the resume the player has built up over 1-4 seasons.

If they are good evaluators they should be trusting the latter more than the former. There are always exceptions and players you just have to get more data on but for the most part trust the things you already know and have seen.

Lastly, if a top prospect doesn’t prefer a particular team/situation they are less likely to put forth their best effort anyway — if they opt to workout at all. But that doesn’t mean they won’t come around to like the situation eventually (e.g., Chris Webber trade).

All the workout might do is provide an excuse to not draft the BPA.

 

[MizzouKing]

Drugs will mess you up. It will take you from highest of highs to lowest of lows and quickly. It takes no prisoners. Also, Tyreke never spent any real time improving his deficiencies. An absolute savant driving to the hoop and a solid understanding of basketball, but terrible shot selection and a broken jumper doomed him, along with bad advice from those he trusted. I remember him just playing streetball during the off-season, which is great and all, but that won’t make you a better shooter.

I heard rumors he liked to party but I also heard the drugs that got him kicked were opioids and this is probably where the health educator in me kicks in and says this team made him play through a bunch of ankle stuff and its likely his addiction issues sprung from pain management drugs he needed to play through his pain.

Reke may not have been the highest BBIQ guy on the board, but he almost certainly fell off as hard as he did due to mismanagement by this organization. Overplaying him, not rehabbing him when needed, and then jerking him around the court. One year he was the PG of the future, the following year he's a SF project. What the hell.

He had three brothers that hung around all the time. Anyone have insights on how they played into all of this?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

He had three brothers that hung around all the time. Anyone have insights on how they played into all of this?

I recall him coming here with a big brother who practically raised him and was supposed to be a positive influence, but I think Reke or a different brother was involved in a shooting when he was 18?

 

[Livinthedream]

Reading between the lines I think here's how it worked out. Monte was in love with Murray from the start and way before the draft process started. The reason no players were considered and brought in was because his mind was made up. Now, this is a problem in some ways but if he's that sold on his peoples talent evaulation then cool. However, that's bit this franchise before. The negative side could say WTF, stay flexible, make moves, be aggressive and don't play your cards that far out in the open. Monte basically had one option to trade back and still get Murray, so the trade thing was basically a 2% chance and as soon as it was known that Murray was hanging around with this franchise guys it was over. The Pistons were feeling great. The moved Grant elsewhere and got the guy they wanted. The key now is to not treat Murray like the new Metu/Lyles. Let him perform. I think he and Harrison could really work together moving on as system guys. If they don't then moves are still possible.

This is true. We're still in the honeymoon phase with the pick and people don't want to talk about the negative. I get it. But all indications are that Monte locked in on a pick, and didn't speak to any other candidates when he had the opportunity.

The pick may end up being the correct one, but the process was faulty. The whole charade of dangling the 4th pick out there when the Kings wanted Murray and the only possible trade partner was Detroit wasted a lot of people's time. Including Woj, who did the Kings bidding during the NBA finals. Monte is establishing his reputation around the league.

 

[Livinthedream]

I don't think Morey ever had a pick this high. He was known to trade some picks though.

Morey never seemed to want to draft. Wanted veterans. Known quantities.

 

[Turgenev]

That's not exactly the whole story. James is mad that as the self proclaimed "Kings Insider" he is no longer privy to inside dirt because Monte cut all the leaks out. James doesn't care about the Kings, James cares about James.

For years we've heard from the folks who worked on the Bigger than Basketball and Crown Downtown projects what James was like to work with and we've had to take them at their word.

Yesterday, on his post draft podcast, in his airing of grievances, Ham actually claimed that he doesn't really care about Monte, if he wants to tank his own career that's his prerogative, but he's very upset that he is ruining other people's livelihoods in the process. And in case you weren't sure what that meant, he cleared it up by stating that as a direct result of the Kings sucking and losing fan engagement poor little James lost his TV job.

Seriously, he said this. Out loud.

F* James Ham. The Kings were always a vehicle for him to feed whatever need it was for him to be a big man about town and the well has run dry.

I haven’t commented on Ham previously here and am only commenting now to distract myself from work I should be doing. And as I have no history with Ham and pay absolutely no attention to him, it might be a bit unfair that I comment at all. But that is one of his issues. Dude is boring. He could be super bright or a bitter old hag, but I wouldn’t know because his content is as appealing as dry toast so I avoid it. You can make posts about the death of local media, but that issue goes way beyond the Sacramento Kings. In this case, some dude called Ham has enough fight in him to maintain some sort of an online presence despite changes to the media landscape but not enough about him to do anything with that presence.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I haven’t commented on Ham previously here and am only commenting now to distract myself from work I should be doing. And as I have no history with Ham and pay absolutely no attention to him, it might be a bit unfair that I comment at all. But that is one of his issues. Dude is boring. He could be super bright or a bitter old hag, but I wouldn’t know because his content is as appealing as dry toast so I avoid it. You can make posts about the death of local media, but that issue goes way beyond the Sacramento Kings. In this case, some dude called Ham has enough fight in him to maintain some sort of an online presence despite changes to the media landscape but not enough about him to do anything with that presence.

I don't make a habit of watching him, his podcast is really unenjoyable. Nevertheless I watched both his post-draft podcast and his segment on D-Lo and KC. What amazes me about all these analysts is they seemed most mad that Monte didn't make a bunch of middling deals that provides them with a bunch of content for the next two weeks of their podcasts. They were mad the Kings didn't setup a special area for them to do their podcast on Kings property. The Kings "wasted" their time by drafting 4th and then making them wait all night not to make another pick (LOL).

Instead of having a rational conversation about what Monte's strategy is, they then just went on to dismiss all his answers to their questions. I think the only one that called him out was Sean Cunningham once or twice.

It's just really horrible lazy media.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

This is true. We're still in the honeymoon phase with the pick and people don't want to talk about the negative. I get it. But all indications are that Monte locked in on a pick, and didn't speak to any other candidates when he had the opportunity.

The pick may end up being the correct one, but the process was faulty. The whole charade of dangling the 4th pick out there when the Kings wanted Murray and the only possible trade partner was Detroit wasted a lot of people's time. Including Woj, who did the Kings bidding during the NBA finals. Monte is establishing his reputation around the league.

You can have whatever opinion you want, of course, but to say “all indications” point to the conclusion you’ve jumped to is faulty itself.

You have zero clue about their process or what transpired behind the scenes, yet positioned your opinion above as factual. It isn’t.

You’re seriously reaching and grasping at straws here for the sake of being critical. At least that’s how it comes across to me.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I don't make a habit of watching him, his podcast is really unenjoyable. Nevertheless I watched both his post-draft podcast and his segment on D-Lo and KC. What amazes me about all these analysts is they seemed most mad that Monte didn't make a bunch of middling deals that provides them with a bunch of content for the next two weeks of their podcasts. They were mad the Kings didn't setup a special area for them to do their podcast on Kings property. The Kings "wasted" their time by drafting 4th and then making them wait all night not to make another pick (LOL).

Instead of having a rational conversation about what Monte's strategy is, they then just went on to dismiss all his answers to their questions. I think the only one that called him out was Sean Cunningham once or twice.

It's just really horrible lazy media.

Yep. Much of today’s media is just an extension of fandom. And they also carry the narcissistic entitlement gene. Professionalism is becoming all but extinct.

 

[Livinthedream]

You can have whatever opinion you want, of course, but to say “all indications” point to the conclusion you’ve jumped to is faulty itself.

You have zero clue about their process or what transpired behind the scenes, yet positioned your opinion above as factual. It isn’t.

You’re seriously reaching and grasping at straws here for the sake of being critical. At least that’s how it comes across to me.

"All indications" is in itself an admission that it's a conclusion based on what's been observed and not a hard fact.

My indications are based on Sam Amick stating Kings were locked in on Keegan due to fit. Media reports that the Kings did not interview most potential lottery picks, but most importantly importantly no interview or contact with Ivey. Listening to Sean Cunningham say that the Kings were visiting Keegan during the college season, well before the draft process.

For those who say Monte doesn't need to interview candidates, just watch film. Then why were they going to Murray's games, talking to him, having dinner with him, etc? The film should speak for itself like it did for the other candidates.

If you have hard facts to counter that the Kings were not locked in on Murray from the jump, then I'm all ears.

 

[Livinthedream]

Yep. Much of today’s media is just an extension of fandom. And they also carry the narcissistic entitlement gene. Professionalism is becoming all but extinct.

Agreed.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

"All indications" is in itself an admission that it's a conclusion based on what's been observed and not a hard fact.

My indications are based on Sam Amick stating Kings were locked in on Keegan due to fit. Media reports that the Kings did not interview most potential lottery picks, but most importantly importantly no interview or contact with Ivey. Listening to Sean Cunningham say that the Kings were visiting Keegan during the college season, well before the draft process.

For those who say Monte doesn't need to interview candidates, just watch film. Then why were they going to Murray's games, talking to him, having dinner with him, etc? The film should speak for itself like it did for the other candidates.

If you have hard facts to counter that the Kings were not locked in on Murray from the jump, then I'm all ears.

But they definitely tracked other people who were just not Ivey. It's definitely possible they considered trading down for a Daniels or Sochan. They wanted to get back into the draft around 20 but their guy was picked.

So they had a favorite and they considered getting him to be better than some of those other guys + a box of treats. It seems people are most mad that Monte didn't draft Ivey, hold him hostage and squeeze out a ton of extras.

The problem was that if Ivey was the obvious #4, Murray was the obvious #5. And the minute Detroit traded Grant - who was never in their long term plans - it became clear they would take Murray if he was there at 5.

 

[kb02]

Really don't understand the media shade. The problem with the Sacramento media is that there is not enough of it. Need less media kissing the ring. More media questioning the front office. This is year 3 of Monte running a draft and he's effectively whiffed on all his second rounders. He's only getting heat for it now that he's going full Brian Sabean during the last few years of Bonds' prime when dude was punting FRPs for Michael Tucker and other middling FAs--big difference though, because the Giants were in a championship window. The Kings are in the gutter. And Monte is punting the most cost efficient way to acquire premium talent in order to save his job. He's planning to save a few extra bucks for an overpaid role player that he's trying to acquire via trade.

Take some time to check out the temperament on the (few) Sac media that does not have to kiss the ring (i.e., the non-KHTK/CSN CA media). Their view of the FO and the Kings are much more realistic than the kiss the ring folks.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Not going to give Monte any credit for anything done in the second round but I believe the problem is that our main roster is too big and so we can't properly develop the guys once they get here. And that's why he passed on the second round this year, to give Queta one more year of development and to hopefully pare down the roster not inflate it to the point you have to cut guaranteed contracts.

Let's not forget that the Kings were given A's all around for their second round picks the last two years.
One more indication draft day grades are meaningless.

 

[kb02]

Not going to give Monte any credit for anything done in the second round but I believe the problem is that our main roster is too big and so we can't properly develop the guys once they get here. And that's why he passed on the second round this year, to give Queta one more year of development and to hopefully pare down the roster not inflate it to the point you have to cut guaranteed contracts.

Let's not forget that the Kings were given A's all around for their second round picks the last two years.
One more indication draft day grades are meaningless.

This is absolutely not true.

Woodard was considered a good pick, only because he filled a position of need. Hopium. Rahmsey was meh, but okay. We'll see.
Queta was who da f*ck is he, but okay, I guess.

An "A"? No one gave that rating.

 

[Woot!]

I just hope the Kings Start him day 1 instead of this bring him along slowly crap I've been accustomed too that never pan out for the Kings

I'll be very surprised if Keegan isn't a Day 1 starter. Haliburton is the obvious comp as someone who wasn't. But KM is better prepared than Tyrese was - and having Fox and Hield as the incumbent starters at your positions, as Tyrese did, is very different than having HB and Metu/Lyles/Harkless/etc.

 

[midtowner]

This is absolutely not true.

Woodard was considered a good pick, only because he filled a position of need. Hopium. Rahmsey was meh, but okay. We'll see.
Queta was who da f*ck is he, but okay, I guess.

An "A"? No one gave that rating.

The Kings need to fix their culture problem first, before they can start developing young talent. Players need to take guys under their wings and teach them how to be professionals. Hali, Davion and Keegan are professionals right out the box. Rahmsey could still turn into something with the right organization.

I have more belief that the Kings are building the right culture than I have since Joeger’s last year (and I was wrong, then).

 

[pdxKingsFan]

This is absolutely not true.

Woodard was considered a good pick, only because he filled a position of need. Hopium. Rahmsey was meh, but okay. We'll see.
Queta was who da f*ck is he, but okay, I guess.

An "A"? No one gave that rating.

Yes the ESPN draft night guys did.
They were slobbering all over Queta, actually.

 

[sauce-26]

During Ham’s podcast he went on a rant about how the team didnt set up a room for their draftnight pod, but then sean mentioned their was a concert that night and would have been difficult to do.

 

[kb02]

The Kings need to fix their culture problem first, before they can start developing young talent. Players need to take guys under their wings and teach them how to be professionals. Hali, Davion and Keegan are professionals right out the box. Rahmsey could still turn into something with the right organization.

I have more belief that the Kings are building the right culture than I have since Joeger’s last year (and I was wrong, then).

Fox and Domas are going into years 6 and 7 of their career. They set the culture. Your best players have to. This is the year or Fox needs to go (needed to go last year, IMO).

As for the second rounders, the Kings have been hyping their development team (Rico Hines, Bobby J...). You can't develop players, you never had a chance to mold.

Though, if you asked me, the player, who I would build the Kings culture around is Davion. Hardest worker. Tenacious.

 

[kb02]

Yes the ESPN draft night guys did.
They were slobbering all over Queta, actually.

When did ESPN become everyone? Slobbering? Ugh, no. The person who thought he would be good was Perk. The same Perk, who most on this board are like how the hell did he get that job?

 

[Woot!]

The Kings need to fix their culture problem first, before they can start developing young talent. Players need to take guys under their wings and teach them how to be professionals. Hali, Davion and Keegan are professionals right out the box. Rahmsey could still turn into something with the right organization.

I have more belief that the Kings are building the right culture than I have since Joeger’s last year (and I was wrong, then).

What do you think is wrong about the Kings' "culture"?

I think "culture" is real and important, but, for many, I think it's also a mushy inference from the fact that the Kings have lost for so long.

 

[Livinthedream]

But they definitely tracked other people who were just not Ivey. It's definitely possible they considered trading down for a Daniels or Sochan. They wanted to get back into the draft around 20 but their guy was picked.

So they had a favorite and they considered getting him to be better than some of those other guys + a box of treats. It seems people are most mad that Monte didn't draft Ivey, hold him hostage and squeeze out a ton of extras.

The problem was that if Ivey was the obvious #4, Murray was the obvious #5. And the minute Detroit traded Grant - who was never in their long term plans - it became clear they would take Murray if he was there at 5.

I think most people are mad that Monte leaked to the press continuously that this is what he would do, but all along he was taking Keegan unless something crazy came his way. Which was always unlikely. But it is possible to significantly improve your team by leveraging that pick if you're truly interested in doing so and not just trying to pick another GMs pocket.

Now, from a PR standpoint, a good portion of fans are disappointed that there was no fireworks during the draft, and it has nothing to do with Murray the player.

 

[midtowner]

What do you think is wrong about the Kings' "culture"?

I think "culture" is real and important, but, for many, I think it's also a mushy inference from the fact that the Kings have lost for so long.

It hasn’t been about the team or the organization for a long time (it’s been about personal agendas). And Fox - who I like a ton - is not a vocal leader/team organizer. So, it’s been difficult to hold players accountable for assignments/roles. And the talent hierarchy has been off (too many role players with similar talent levels competing for court time). And the Basketball IQ of the team has been lagging.

Things may change with Domas being the best player. The Kings need an alpha to own this team and others to buy in. I think Monte is doing a good job - but it is moving slower than I prefer.

 

[Woot!]

I think most people are mad that Monte leaked to the press continuously that this is what he would do, but all along he was taking Keegan unless something crazy came his way. Which was always unlikely. But it is possible to significantly improve your team by leveraging that pick if you're truly interested in doing so and not just trying to pick another GMs pocket.

Now, from a PR standpoint, a good portion of fans are disappointed that there was no fireworks during the draft, and it has nothing to do with Murray the player.

I think unhappy Kings fans are unhappy for one or more of three reasons:

• Disappointed at no fireworks, as you say
• Disappointed that the pick wasn't leveraged into more because they aren't especially high on Murray
• Disappointed that the Kings didn't manage to "pick another GMs pocket"

For his part, Monte did what he should do: make it clear that the pick was for sale at a high price given the value he saw in Keegan.

And, obviously, Monte DIDN'T think any of the trade options available to him would "significantly improve the team" relative to simply choosing Murray, not least because all of them would have meant forgoing Murray.

People can and will disagree with Monte's judgment on Murray's value vs. the value of other players and packages he might have had (most of which we'll never know). But given the value he and the team placed on Murray, he did absolutely nothing wrong there.

 

[Jc121]

Culture? We have culture as since they moved here it was and is the Sacramento kings.
we had bad decisions way before the glory years of Webber and vlade era And most of that team was traded to us.
I remember the never nervous pervis pick or the Simmons Mays causwell picks. Or the big trade for Ralph Sampson.
How about most of our trades were for players that didn’t start for other teams but started for us. I find the Richmond trade the beginning of the turn around.

Now I am seeing good decisions made again like trading for Sabonis but it starts with solid decisions on draft day or you’re never have the assets to trade with. So I am really relying on our last pick to help keep moving towards where all of us hope to be going.

 

[Woot!]

It hasn’t been about the team or the organization for a long time (it’s been about personal agendas). And Fox - who I like a ton - is not a vocal leader/team organizer. So, it’s been difficult to hold players accountable for assignments/roles. And the talent hierarchy has been off (too many role players with similar talent levels competing for court time). And the Basketball IQ of the team has been lagging.

Things may change with Domas being the best player. The Kings need an alpha to own this team and others to buy in. I think Monte is doing a good job - but it is moving slower than I prefer.

BBIQ and talent hierarchy may feed culture, but I don't think most people would say they constitute culture.

Accountability is certainly an important cultural component. In re Fox, you're pointing to him as the would-be leader who doesn't hold others accountable. IMO the bigger problem is that HE'S by far the one who most needs to held accountable. To have the team's "best player" (until Sabonis' arrival, at least), who clearly can be a very good defender when he cares to be, care NOT to be more often than not, is, to me, devastating. Especially considering that 90% of the Kings' woes are on that end and it all starts w/their perimeter defense.