Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28
- Thread starter kb02
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I'm the biggest Morey fanboy out there, but it's impossible for him to have blown this situation more than he has. Took a 24 year old DPOY candidate that's been a top 15-25 player the last few years and has made him a toxic asset around the league where no one is willing to offer even close to his actual on-court value.
It's honestly insane to me they're willing to waste a year of a very uncertain prime window of Embiid. He's not someone you can rely on staying healthy the next 7+ years where you can slow-play a situation like this.
Even if you don't get fair value, why would you want this toxic cloud over your team the whole year? Because this isn't going to go away, especially if the Sixers struggle out the gate.
Even if you don't get fair value, why would you want this toxic cloud over your team the whole year? Because this isn't going to go away, especially if the Sixers struggle out the gate.
Indeed.
More to the point, "a player who'll help keep them a championship contender" does not need to be a star. Embiid needs shooters around him, and Simmons as a trade chip has always been the ticket to facilitating the arrival of more elite shooters in Philly. But now that Morey's and Simmons' horn-locking has effectively damaged Simmons' trade value beyond repair, Morey would be lucky to get a shooter of Buddy Hield's caliber back in a trade.
Instead, the Sixers are holding onto a tarnished asset who's value diminishes weekly, who doesn't want to be there, who doesn't want to buy in, and who doesn't want to play for them, which means that Philly has very little to show for their role in the current stalemate. Simmons ultimately did report to the team, but these recent events suggest it's not entirely clear that Simmons reporting to the team was of benefit to either a) returning some value to their diminished asset, or b) keeping the Sixers fit to compete for a title.
More to the point, "a player who'll help keep them a championship contender" does not need to be a star. Embiid needs shooters around him, and Simmons as a trade chip has always been the ticket to facilitating the arrival of more elite shooters in Philly. But now that Morey's and Simmons' horn-locking has effectively damaged Simmons' trade value beyond repair, Morey would be lucky to get a shooter of Buddy Hield's caliber back in a trade.
Instead, the Sixers are holding onto a tarnished asset who's value diminishes weekly, who doesn't want to be there, who doesn't want to buy in, and who doesn't want to play for them, which means that Philly has very little to show for their role in the current stalemate. Simmons ultimately did report to the team, but these recent events suggest it's not entirely clear that Simmons reporting to the team was of benefit to either a) returning some value to their diminished asset, or b) keeping the Sixers fit to compete for a title.
If Fox showed up tomorrow and demanded to be traded to an east coast team would we trade him to the Wiz for a Corey Kispert and Kyle Kuzma? That’s the equivalent of what a lot of Kings fans are expecting Morey to do.
Morey was never going to get an all star and multiple firsts but I think he has to try to do better then Bagley and Buddy.
As much as I dislike how Ben handled this situation, I would love to trade Buddy, Bags and a first for the bet on talent.
Morey was never going to get an all star and multiple firsts but I think he has to try to do better then Bagley and Buddy.
As much as I dislike how Ben handled this situation, I would love to trade Buddy, Bags and a first for the bet on talent.
And they're kind of screwed either way tbh. If they're really bad to start the year without Simmons... then yeah some return for their 2nd best player. If they're really good, teams can just say "Well, Simmons actually didn't help you, so why am I giving you any value for a player who doesn't want to be there?"
Or if Simmons does actually play, but if he's bad? Plays poorly? Shows no effort?
No, it's not even close. It's like if we publicly blamed the last 5 years of not making the playoffs on Fox, saying our team would be there if only our star player was better, fans berating Fox on social media for "not getting better", ignoring Fox's trade request, Hali talking to the media about "how I don't care about that dude, we aren't babysitting him" and then expecting teams to give us full value for him.
Of course not, but the Sacramento Kings are not a playoff team, and they're certainly not competing for a championship. There would be no urgency whatsoever for Monte McNair to comply with such a trade demand and receive so little in return.
Daryl Morey, on the other hand, is managing a franchise with clear championship aspirations, and his offense- and defense-anchoring superstar has a finite window to compete for a title due to his size and terrifyingly checkered medical history. There is serious urgency to resolve the Ben Simmons situation at a minimum of disruption to both the locker room and the pursuit of home-court advantage in the playoffs this season (which is, by the way, back to the demanding grind of 82 games).
There's a reason that most teams who are forced into trading a star player receive unfair value in return. With leverage or without it, you can't waste a season dithering when a star demands a trade. Unfortunately for the Sixers, Ben Simmons is not James Harden. The lack of "fair value" will likely be considerably more stark in the case of any eventual Simmons trade. Will it be as low as Hield/Bagley/future first rounder? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But dealing Simmons also isn't going to bring back a superstar in his prime like Damian Lillard.
Daryl Morey, on the other hand, is managing a franchise with clear championship aspirations, and his offense- and defense-anchoring superstar has a finite window to compete for a title due to his size and terrifyingly checkered medical history. There is serious urgency to resolve the Ben Simmons situation at a minimum of disruption to both the locker room and the pursuit of home-court advantage in the playoffs this season (which is, by the way, back to the demanding grind of 82 games).
There's a reason that most teams who are forced into trading a star player receive unfair value in return. With leverage or without it, you can't waste a season dithering when a star demands a trade. Unfortunately for the Sixers, Ben Simmons is not James Harden. The lack of "fair value" will likely be considerably more stark in the case of any eventual Simmons trade. Will it be as low as Hield/Bagley/future first rounder? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But dealing Simmons also isn't going to bring back a superstar in his prime like Damian Lillard.
That’s pretty extreme. Sounds like Ben is the problem (not working to get better) (refusing to take threes) and the franchise just reached a boiling point. The guy is a big baby plain and simple. Embiid and Docs initial comments were blown way out of proportion. These are professionals not 8th graders. And after what he pulled in practice I don’t blame Embiid and his teammates for being sick of it.
I agree they won’t get fair value, I just think the trade options don’t seem even in the ballpark. If I was Morey I could probably be talked into CJ and a pick but I don’t think I could stomach a Bagley Buddy swap. The reality is without Ben Simmons or a better fitting piece that is upper echelon they are not a contender anyway. If they trade for CJ that might be the best shot they have.
What's extreme about it? That's exactly what the Philly FO/coach did the whole summer after their playoff loss. Had they just shut up, not said a word, they probably get CJ/Roco/2 FRP type of package for him if they shop him quietly. They instead spent the whole summer shoveling all their problems on Simmons and how he cost them the series and how he "hasn't got better", how the team has always been built around him, etc. THEN they ignore his trade request after all that and they expect him to just show up and be a good little boy?
Yeah, Philly is definitely screwed no matter how this plays out. They've done themselves no favors at all by tossing Ben under the bus repeatedly over the years, particularly as they moved into this offseason. Simmons' shortcomings as a player prevent him from entering the "superstar" echelon, but when it becomes clear that your second-best player doesn't at all fit with your best player and it's holding you back from winning a championship, you don't say that out loud. You don't put the burden on a second-tier star to become a top-tier superstar. You certainly don't publicly pinpoint a single play in which that second-tier star committed an error as the pivot point around which a crucial game was lost.
I know Joel Embiid is eminently meme-able and that he's a huge hit with fans and reporters because he "tells it like it is." But he did his franchise no favors by reaching for the "blame Ben" switch in the aftermath of game 7. Instead, you just offer the usual pro sports bromides about how it's a "team effort" and "we gave it our all" and "it's not on any one guy." Then, as a GM, you make your calls and line up a deal that works for you, even if it represents a considerable step down in value. The Ben Simmons situation is seriously a masterclass in how not to worsen your own bargaining position by saying the quiet parts out loud and by letting internal drama spill completely into public view.
I know Joel Embiid is eminently meme-able and that he's a huge hit with fans and reporters because he "tells it like it is." But he did his franchise no favors by reaching for the "blame Ben" switch in the aftermath of game 7. Instead, you just offer the usual pro sports bromides about how it's a "team effort" and "we gave it our all" and "it's not on any one guy." Then, as a GM, you make your calls and line up a deal that works for you, even if it represents a considerable step down in value. The Ben Simmons situation is seriously a masterclass in how not to worsen your own bargaining position by saying the quiet parts out loud and by letting internal drama spill completely into public view.
The trade options that have largely been discussed by the media and fans alike certainly wouldn't be in the ballpark if Simmons hadn't demanded a trade, if the Sixers hadn't thrown Simmons under the bus, if Morey didn't announce that he wanted the sun and the moon in return for Simmons, if Simmons hadn't held out as training camp began, and if Simmons hadn't begun poisoning the locker room upon finally reporting to the team. The situation is toxic all over, and neither Morey nor Simmons nor Embiid have done much to aid the Sixers in bolstering their bargaining position. It seems like every week that passes, someone says something or does something to make it worse.
In a vacuum, yes, Ben Simmons is worth quite a bit more than Buddy Hield/Marvin Bagley/future first rounder. But NBA trades never occur within a vacuum. You need a team willing to trade for a player who has become toxic, and you need that team to have the kind of asset you're hoping to receive in return, and you need that asset to actually be made available in exchange for the toxic entity you're attempting with which to part ways. If that team and that player don't materialize because of factors like those I mentioned in the previous paragraph, well, then you have to take less than what you desire or suffer the damage to your locker room and risk alienating those in it while still trying to pursue a championship as the distractions pile up. Good luck in that scenario.
In a vacuum, yes, Ben Simmons is worth quite a bit more than Buddy Hield/Marvin Bagley/future first rounder. But NBA trades never occur within a vacuum. You need a team willing to trade for a player who has become toxic, and you need that team to have the kind of asset you're hoping to receive in return, and you need that asset to actually be made available in exchange for the toxic entity you're attempting with which to part ways. If that team and that player don't materialize because of factors like those I mentioned in the previous paragraph, well, then you have to take less than what you desire or suffer the damage to your locker room and risk alienating those in it while still trying to pursue a championship as the distractions pile up. Good luck in that scenario.
The Sixers are in a tough spot for sure.
-If they keep Ben and he keeps being a cry baby they won’t win a championship.
-If they trade him for Buddy/Bags they won’t win a championship.
Their best shot was to get him in camp and hope this all blows over and even then they would not be the favorites to come out of the East. He gambled on this option and it appears it didn’t work out.
-If they keep Ben and he keeps being a cry baby they won’t win a championship.
-If they trade him for Buddy/Bags they won’t win a championship.
Their best shot was to get him in camp and hope this all blows over and even then they would not be the favorites to come out of the East. He gambled on this option and it appears it didn’t work out.
I don’t think the comments were that over the top bad. Everyone who has any experience with people from other countries know they tend to be more blunt and less politically correct. More often than not it’s meant to be an opinion or factual not hurtful. Doc shouldn’t have said what he did but adults should be able to work through issues like this without throwing a tantrum. 30 million dollars is also a decent reason to show up to work. Everyone played a role in this mess, I just don’t think it needed to play out like this.
Here is a thought…….76ers have defensive ace Thybulle who can eat up more of Simmons minutes and Maxey is pretty good defensively, surround Embiid with Curry AND Hield. I mean Hield can help that team win. Im just saying there are things that they can do for below value in return but they might end up being more capable in the long run.