Off season targets

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#91
Rajon Rondo and Jason Kidd say "hi".

If those two could help their teams contend every season and even win a title w/ essentially the same flaws, why can't Simmons?

Historically, Rondo is as statistically bad from the FT line as Simmons and Kidd's FT% was in the 60's his first 5 seasons.

Kidd became a pretty good 3pt shooter as he got older, but neither Kidd nor Rondo were strong shooters or great scorers.
Kidd's average PPG usually hovered in the mid-teens just like Simmons.

Would you not have wanted either of those players in their primes?
Jason Kidd was a far more aggressive playmaker than Simmons and didn't win his title until he was a role player who mostly played good D, hit open shots, and made smart plays while deferring to Dirk all game. When Kidd was "in his prime" the closest he got was the time the Nets got absolutely curbstomped by the Lakers and Spurs after beating out a really weak eastern conference two years in a row because his team was built primarily around his ability to pass but not score.

Rondo won his ring as the 4th option on a Celtics team featuring KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen right before they got too old to play. Also while he wasn't ever a particularly explosive scorer, he still would have a handful of aggressive drives per game that would open up the floor for his stars later in the game. He also got a ring later on as a Laker but that barely counts because he was the 3rd pg on a Lakers team featuring King James and AD and in the bubble.

If Ben Simmons weren't getting paid like a superstar and a slightly more aggressive offensive player, I'd agree with your comparison but as a max player in the modern NBA, he's not exactly what you'd call a positive asset.
 
#92
Rajon Rondo and Jason Kidd say "hi".

If those two could help their teams contend every season and even win a title w/ essentially the same flaws, why can't Simmons?

Historically, Rondo is as statistically bad from the FT line as Simmons and Kidd's FT% was in the 60's his first 5 seasons.

Kidd became a pretty good 3pt shooter as he got older, but neither Kidd nor Rondo were strong shooters or great scorers.
Kidd's average PPG usually hovered in the mid-teens just like Simmons.

Would you not have wanted either of those players in their primes?
I would have wanted Jason Kidd and Rajon Rondo in the era during which they reached their primes, when the three-point shot was yet to eat up the share of FGA's that it represents today. But prime Kidd and prime Rondo would likely struggle to reach their ceilings in 2021, just as Simmons has. There's certainly room for playmakers who defer when it comes to shooting/scoring in the modern NBA, but they're not really counted among all-stars anymore.

That said, Ben Simmons has been an all-star already. He's such a strange player. He's an anomaly, and not exactly after the fashion of a "unicorn"-styled all-star level talent. He should be something like Scottie Pippen 2.0, a do-it-all playmaker and scorer who can smother on the defensive end while covering positions 1-5 on any given night. But instead, he's alarmingly timid, and his flat-out refusal to work on improving as a shooter is kind of appalling. It registers as unearned arrogance, which is a bizarre quality in a player as meek on the offensive end as Simmons.

I mean, it'd be one thing if he was just a bad shooter. But often he's afraid to shoot, and despite his obvious talent, you're not going to win a title in the modern NBA if one of your two best players is scared to engage offensively from the moment he steps on the court. Again, he's such a strange player. It is so odd that someone with his natural gift for seeing and reading the floor cannot seem to get out of his own head.

Of course, Simmons' flaws are not solely the result of a problem between the ears or a lack of killer instinct. Philly's roster construction has certainly helped to magnify his flaws. He's always been a terrible fit next to Embiid. Plenty of sports writers have twisted themselves into knots the last few years trying describe that fit as nothing worse than "awkward," when in truth, it's just never really worked at all. When he's not on-ball, Philly treats him a bit like a center, dropping him on the low block, where he doesn't really accomplish much offensively and rarely even screens for his teammates.

The problem has always been that Simmons occupies the same exact space as Embiid, and the Sixers have weirdly tried to contort Embiid's game to make it work with Simmons' game. But as Embiid has continued to ascend to legitimate superstar status, Simmons has essentially been stuck in place, making it less-than-ideal that their best player is having to accommodate the quirks of their second best player. Why has Simmons made no adjustments whatsoever? Why is it always "I am what I am" with him? He barely bothers to pay lip service to striving for improvement anymore.

Now Simmons' confidence is shot, he's unlikely to reacquire it in Philly, and even less likely to improve under the weight of the blame and expectations that have been thrust upon him in the wake of his timid play in these and other Philly playoff appearances. Worse for Philly, his trade value is at an all-time low. The rest of the league smells blood in the water. They know the Sixers probably need to move on from Simmons if they're ever going to achieve anything more than a second-round exit. Given his injury history, Embiid's window is shorter than most. They don't have time to wait for Simmons to make good on the promise of his talent, and Daryl Morey has never been trigger shy.

So I gather Morey will have to take less than he'd like in a swap. CJ McCollum is the name I see most often in possible trade scenarios right now. That could be beneficial for the Sixers and the Blazers. Could the Kings jump into the deep end and try their hand at buying low on Simmons? It's certainly possible, and while I've never been a very big fan of Simmons, I have to admit that it's exactly the kind of trade scenario the Kings should be looking at. Talent acquisition can be so difficult in the NBA, especially when you whiff on your draft picks the way the Kings have for much of the past decade-and-a-half. Sometimes you have to get into the rehab business and hope that a change of scenery might bring out the best in a player who's failing to live up to their promise.

However, I'd be loathe to give up either Fox or Haliburton in a trade for Ben Simmons. I really want to see more from Hali. He could be special. I would not be willing to ship him out after the great rookie season he just had. And Fox has made big leaps every year. While he's not yet much of a shooter, he has shown improvement in that area, unlike Simmons. More importantly, the kid is driven. This season, he effectively answered the question of whether or not he had the killer instinct to catapult himself into the all-star conversation. Simmons has yet to really show that he wants to be one of the league's best. So if I'm trading for Simmons, I'm taking advantage of the Sixers' poor bargaining position.

Buddy Hield, this year's pick, and maybe a future pick? I don't think that gets the deal done, but if it did, I'd roll those dice. Philly needs the shooting. And while they don't need draft picks/young players, Morey loves asset accumulation. And draft picks remain some of the most potent currency in the league, particularly if you're trying to shop for disgruntled stars (which is Morey's MO). I have no idea if Fox/Hali/Simmons could possibly work. They'd need two more above-average outside shooters in the lineup. But the playmaking versatility, fastbreak potency, and at-rim finesse would be off-the-charts.
 
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#93
Jason Kidd was a far more aggressive playmaker than Simmons and didn't win his title until he was a role player who mostly played good D, hit open shots, and made smart plays while deferring to Dirk all game. When Kidd was "in his prime" the closest he got was the time the Nets got absolutely curbstomped by the Lakers and Spurs after beating out a really weak eastern conference two years in a row because his team was built primarily around his ability to pass but not score.

Rondo won his ring as the 4th option on a Celtics team featuring KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen right before they got too old to play. Also while he wasn't ever a particularly explosive scorer, he still would have a handful of aggressive drives per game that would open up the floor for his stars later in the game. He also got a ring later on as a Laker but that barely counts because he was the 3rd pg on a Lakers team featuring King James and AD and in the bubble.

If Ben Simmons weren't getting paid like a superstar and a slightly more aggressive offensive player, I'd agree with your comparison but as a max player in the modern NBA, he's not exactly what you'd call a positive asset.
NBA rule #1: when you aren't one of the few select teams that have a clear universal level of talent to where you can wake up out of bed in the middle of the day, go straight the game, and come out with a chance at a ring, then team build is everything. Rondo had that universal talent around him and the Mavs had the exact right team build to to take out the Heat team they were facing and make up for everything Dirk couldn't give you.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#94
Rajon Rondo and Jason Kidd say "hi".

If those two could help their teams contend every season and even win a title w/ essentially the same flaws, why can't Simmons?

Historically, Rondo is as statistically bad from the FT line as Simmons and Kidd's FT% was in the 60's his first 5 seasons.

Kidd became a pretty good 3pt shooter as he got older, but neither Kidd nor Rondo were strong shooters or great scorers.
Kidd's average PPG usually hovered in the mid-teens just like Simmons.

Would you not have wanted either of those players in their primes?
They were never this bad…….Simmons salary is the biggest part of the equation.
 
#95
We’re not getting Sabonis for Hield.

Would think #9 and then some would have to go out on our side.
With the clear path to winning anything right now I wouldn't want him TBH. Great value on that deal, but I'll take shooting over skill bigs unless you have a direct need and fit for that as a team. Next to Fox? Nah. Give he and Haliburton a lob target that can switch with them on D. If they can spot shoot all the better.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#96
Jason Kidd was a far more aggressive playmaker than Simmons and didn't win his title until he was a role player who mostly played good D, hit open shots, and made smart plays while deferring to Dirk all game. When Kidd was "in his prime" the closest he got was the time the Nets got absolutely curbstomped by the Lakers and Spurs after beating out a really weak eastern conference two years in a row because his team was built primarily around his ability to pass but not score.

Rondo won his ring as the 4th option on a Celtics team featuring KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen right before they got too old to play. Also while he wasn't ever a particularly explosive scorer, he still would have a handful of aggressive drives per game that would open up the floor for his stars later in the game. He also got a ring later on as a Laker but that barely counts because he was the 3rd pg on a Lakers team featuring King James and AD and in the bubble.

If Ben Simmons weren't getting paid like a superstar and a slightly more aggressive offensive player, I'd agree with your comparison but as a max player in the modern NBA, he's not exactly what you'd call a positive asset.
The 3 wasn't remotely as significant in 2008 as it is today either. The centerpiece of the Celtics Big-3 was KG and having one Ray Allen was enough.
 
#97
Absolutely.

I think of him as a Rajon Rondo type playmaker. One that doesn’t shoot it well or even score all that much most the time, but does so many other things well that lead to winning.

Even Jason Kidd kinda fits into that category.

Both were part of title winning teams. Both were great defenders, ball handlers, and playmakers. But neither were players you wanted to take a last shot. Or even have them create for themselves in the final minutes.

That‘s what Ben Simmons is. Except he’s 6-10 with long arms.

Did anyone notice how difficult he made it on Trae Young at times to bring the ball into the front court? He turned him over once and almost another time late in GM7.

Because he’s a PG masquerading in PF’s body, some people forget what he is.

Ben Simmons can absolutely be an integral part of a championship winning team as Rondo and Kidd were. And he doesn’t have to be a shooter/scorer to do it.

Unlike Rondo or Kidd, Simmons can defend all 5 positions. He’s truly a unique player.

If I were the KINGS I’d do anything I could to pry him away from Philly. If they could manage to pair him with Fox or Hali (I assume one would have to be included in a trade for him) I believe it’d start the upward ascension.
I like the Rondo comparison with the on court strengths and weaknesses but I think the contract situation is what makes it difficult to do a true comparison to Rondo.

Rondo was only making about $1 million and some change per year when the Celtics had their finals runs. Simmons is going to be making $30 million + per year. If you ramped up Rondo's contract to match Simmons, the Celtics would not have been able to afford one of KG, Allen or Pierce, plus some role players, and more than likely would not have won the championship.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#98
I like the Rondo comparison with the on court strengths and weaknesses but I think the contract situation is what makes it difficult to do a true comparison to Rondo.

Rondo was only making about $1 million and some change per year when the Celtics had their finals runs. Simmons is going to be making $30 million + per year. If you ramped up Rondo's contract to match Simmons, the Celtics would not have been able to afford one of KG, Allen or Pierce, plus some role players, and more than likely would not have won the championship.
We'd be a luxury tax team, but since all our other cornerstones were Kings draft picks or guys we have Bird rights on, if we can swing the financials to bring him here, we'd be in pretty good shape. Depending what it cost us I do think Simmons could swing us right into the mix for 5-6 seed immediately.
 
#99
We'd be a luxury tax team, but since all our other cornerstones were Kings draft picks or guys we have Bird rights on, if we can swing the financials to bring him here, we'd be in pretty good shape. Depending what it cost us I do think Simmons could swing us right into the mix for 5-6 seed immediately.
Depending on what you gave up to get him of course. Also assuming 3 pick and roll guards essentially is going to work when 2 of them are sketchy shooters (yes, Fox improved immensely). The pain in all of this is according what anyone would see on the roster sheet this team had the tools and the star PG and depth to be in that 5-6 mix THIS year. Walton didn't win when he had his top options, he succeeded when most of them were out as he capitalized on teams winding down into playoff pushes or commencing with full on tankage. It's too bad Vivek as a data guy isn't seeing the on the dot trends and patterns in Waltons two seasons here. You can't win at a 3-4 :10 clip in the bulk of the season with no major hurdles and hope to trick your way into things at the end as your injuries have piled up. Some of which could be directly related to burning guys up with consecutive minutes to boot.
 
Jason Kidd was a far more aggressive playmaker than Simmons and didn't win his title until he was a role player who mostly played good D, hit open shots, and made smart plays while deferring to Dirk all game.
None of this matters. You‘re getting too granular.

The comparison wasn’t meant to be 100% exact. It doesn’t have to be.

The main point was that Simmons doesn’t have to be scorer or a go to player to be a super valuable star player or a major part of a championship level team.

Like Kidd and Rondo he’s a ball handler that can create for others and play elite level defense at any position you play him. Like Kidd and Rondo, he’s not a shooter or volume scorer. Like Kidd and Rondo, he’s struggles at the FT.

Those two players were still integral parts of championship contending teams, all-stars and at least one of them a HOF’er.
Simmons can be too.
 
I like the Rondo comparison with the on court strengths and weaknesses but I think the contract situation is what makes it difficult to do a true comparison to Rondo.

Rondo was only making about $1 million and some change per year when the Celtics had their finals runs. Simmons is going to be making $30 million + per year. If you ramped up Rondo's contract to match Simmons, the Celtics would not have been able to afford one of KG, Allen or Pierce, plus some role players, and more than likely would not have won the championship.
Probably not. But we fans don’t have to pay his contract. If they can find a way to make it work, do it.

I’d rather have Simmons making too much money than Buddy Hield.
 
I do this trade every day and twice on sunday. Getting back Sabonis for Buddy even if i gotta throw the 9th in is a done deal. I can then try to package bagley and Barnes if necessary for other pieces and still have and MLE to swing around. I think even Walton would be able to get a playoff push from this group. I would prefer to throw next years pick instead of this years and go for Sengun who i can see fitting very well next to Sabonis, holmes or Bagley (gives me Jokic vibes).
 
I’m going to put Jock Landale on the list. I’m a homer - SMC Gaels fan (they are going to be dope next year btw). But the kid has worked on his game. At 26 - he gives you a big body with stretch potential (his 3 is now nice). He’s an OK minus rim protector and won’t look good on switches. But on nights when the Kings are playing giant centers, he’ll hold his own in the post and bring the bigs away from the basket. Plus - good dude. And he will help change the soft culture.
 
Hamidou Diallo - with the Pistons drafting another wing - and Bey, Josh Jackson, and J Grant already there - I think Diallo will be available. This dude keeps getting better. He doesn’t have the 3 - but he has the D and the kind of energy the Kings need.
 
I do this trade every day and twice on sunday. Getting back Sabonis for Buddy even if i gotta throw the 9th in is a done deal. I can then try to package bagley and Barnes if necessary for other pieces and still have and MLE to swing around. I think even Walton would be able to get a playoff push from this group. I would prefer to throw next years pick instead of this years and go for Sengun who i can see fitting very well next to Sabonis, holmes or Bagley (gives me Jokic vibes).
It's about as big of a no brainer trade for the Kings as you could ever imagine but I don't see the Pacers doing it. That's taking on $55 million for two players with big issues with their games, while trading away one of the most well rounded players in the league with very few issues.
 
Kawhi Leonard reportedly wants out like he did with the Spurs because of their medical staff. Bagley wants out here and we want to trade Buddy. If Kawhi Leonard decided to sign with Sacramento (unlikely, but the same type of player that could jumpstart the Kings as Paul did for Phoenix), and you had to trade Buddy and Marvin to a team with Capspace like OKC, and it cost you a first rd pick, possibly #9 but ideally a future protected first, do you do it?

Deal is essentially
Buddy, Marvin to OKC along w a 1st #9 or a future first for capspace

Capspace then used to sign Kawhi Leonard

Thoughts?
 
Kawhi Leonard reportedly wants out like he did with the Spurs because of their medical staff. Bagley wants out here and we want to trade Buddy. If Kawhi Leonard decided to sign with Sacramento (unlikely, but the same type of player that could jumpstart the Kings as Paul did for Phoenix), and you had to trade Buddy and Marvin to a team with Capspace like OKC, and it cost you a first rd pick, possibly #9 but ideally a future protected first, do you do it?

Deal is essentially
Buddy, Marvin to OKC along w a 1st #9 or a future first for capspace

Capspace then used to sign Kawhi Leonard

Thoughts?
I like the idea but we’ve never been able to use any cap space for a star. So you could put kawhi, lebron, giannis or any top star in your proposal but it ain’t happening. Stars are traded to or drafted by the kings, not signed
 
Should be noted that the rumors about Kawhi are coming from human gasbag and general waste of space Skip Bayless. Might wanna wait until an actual reporter reports it before custom-making your Kings Kawhi jersey.
what about my custom luka kings jersey being processed? that still good to go right? ;)
 
I like the idea but we’ve never been able to use any cap space for a star. So you could put kawhi, lebron, giannis or any top star in your proposal but it ain’t happening. Stars are traded to or drafted by the kings, not signed
True. It's never happened before. IF it happened. I mean if you look at the Kings the guards are pretty solid Fox, Haliburton, Davis, Wright. We needs bigs and wings. I hold out the hope that players look at the Kings and say "hey I could be that guy that brings them back." Kawhi could be one of those guys IF he thought like that. It's unlikely to ever happen but all it takes is one guy to decide he wqnts to be that guy.
 
Should be noted that the rumors about Kawhi are coming from human gasbag and general waste of space Skip Bayless. Might wanna wait until an actual reporter reports it before custom-making your Kings Kawhi jersey.
True. I was using a hypothetical. Really the Kings should pursue every possible "home run" type move they can whether it's Simmons, Kawhi, Lillard or whoever else becomes available. The Kings need a difference maker and maybe one day a difference maker will want to come to the Kings.
 
https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/06...to-kings-indiana-pacers-trade-myles-turner/4/

Would love this trade. Im good with moving the 9 and either buddy, bagley (the one id most like to include) or barnes (would be the one i want to move the least) for turner.

Hahaha. laughable. If the Kings gave up Bagley and 9 for Turner, Monte McNair would be laying the groundwork for a quick wrap on his GM career. Turner should be a target but that's an overpay for what Turner actually gives you.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I think Steven Adams should be on the Kings list. If the Kings are done with Bagley I'd look their way and make an offer. Maybe the Kings could get some draft assets as well if the Pels are hard up to move him.
Adams’s contract is no bueno and I’m not sure Griffin wants the egg on his face of making a trade that was bad at the time (anyone with a brain pretty much knew that Adams next to Zion would not work), then doubling down with a contract extension, only to admit defeat and trade him a season later. That said, he’d certainly help us get rid of that “the Kings are too nice” narrative and help finish out defensive sequences.
 
Adams’s contract is no bueno and I’m not sure Griffin wants the egg on his face of making a trade that was bad at the time (anyone with a brain pretty much knew that Adams next to Zion would not work), then doubling down with a contract extension, only to admit defeat and trade him a season later. That said, he’d certainly help us get rid of that “the Kings are too nice” narrative and help finish out defensive sequences.
He's only got 2 years left though and making around 18 million per. That's not bad when you consider the possibility that's what Holmes may be looking for over more years. His contract fits into a short term win now plan that could be lined up with a 1 year run and a potential rebuild the year after if it doesn't work. Even if Holmes got paid a MLE deal I'd be more concerned about the length of his deal. Keep these deals within the span of where Barnes and Buddy start falling off the books.
 
Or, if Buddy's outgoing in an Adams deal, all of the sudden you're looking at opening up a reasonable amount of space in the summer of 2023 with Barnes and Adams both coming off the books, and Halliburton still on his rookie deal.
Where are the Pels heads at though? Are they trying to compete now or trying to reset a bit? I would assume they'd prefer something like Bagley and whatever space the Kings have currently. Buddy would certainly help them though and allow them to let the Kings development work for them. His Kings stay would be like an extended development camp, ha ha.
 
Where are the Pels heads at though? Are they trying to compete now or trying to reset a bit? I would assume they'd prefer something like Bagley and whatever space the Kings have currently. Buddy would certainly help them though and allow them to let the Kings development work for them. His Kings stay would be like an extended development camp, ha ha.
Buddy is pretty damn close to a perfect for them next to Lonzo's defense (and improved shooting) and opening up the paint for Zion and Ingram as elite paint collapsers. He's also amazing in transition and that team could easily destroy pace records in NBA history.

Would be interesting what a deal would look like to get 10+Adams for Buddy base. More likely would be something along the lines of including NAW or Hayes with Adams.