Fire Walton

[SacTownKid]

While I'm not a fan of Walton, using criticism from LBJ isn't the way to prove your point. He has tried to get the coach fired at pretty much every new team he has joined. The one I know he failed was in Miami where Pat Riley refused to fire Spoelstra.

First off Spoelstra is a really good coach and that is proven, something Walton hasn't done anywhere sans keeping Kerrs seat warm. And LeBron keeps winning rings and stuffed it back on Miami personally last year. Eh, is what it is. The Walton thing was different. The Lakers cleaned up whatever mess on the quick, Walton included, before anything went further and they didn't do too bad after the fact I'd say. Once the Magic regime was coming to an end they didn't ***** foot around, they made the clean sweep unlike the Kings who have done this twice in the last few years with Vlade/Karl and now Monte/Walton.

 

[Telemachus]

while I’m far from a Vlade fan but Vlade got us Fox and Bogi and Holmes. I haven’t seen anything from McNair that supersedes those acquisitions yet.

Something else Vlade often doesn't get credit for is replenishing our scouting department and bringing in coaches with the designed purpose of developing players (Hines being the best part of that).

 

[SacTownKid]

Something else Vlade often doesn't get credit for is replenishing our scouting department and bringing in coaches with the designed purpose of developing players (Hines being the best part of that).

Vlade didn't hit grand slams but he also didn't sit on his hands. When he had to move he did. Monte was a ghost last year and it's looking more likely that's exactly why he was brought in. Who knows how much is financially motivated but they made moves last year that we can look at in totality now that we're on the back end of it that certainly looked like cost cutting moves. The Bogdan move was smart considering we all know it wasn't going to work here, but was that actually more financially motivated? I mean, when teams start signing players like Metu, Jones, etc. that aren't exactly fresh faces and try to sell them as building blocks of the future it looks a little bit sketchy to me. We'll see this summer. I don't think going all in salary wise on this roster is anything other than a gamble but if they are just being cheap we'll see it.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Yeah and the Kings picked up those table scraps and how's it working so far? LeBron has some rings to his name at least. Beggars can't be choosers

What the hell are you talking about here?

LBJ's accomplishments as a player don't have any relation or comparison to Walton's coaching career.

Walton was part of 2 title winning teams as a player and does have "rings to his name" as you say.

So freaking what? The rings won as a player have nothing to do with his career as a head coach.

LBJ's accomplishments as a player have even less relevance.

Anything else you'd like to mention that also has no relevance whatsoever?

 

[steelevt]

while I’m far from a Vlade fan but Vlade got us Fox and Bogi and Holmes. I haven’t seen anything from McNair that supersedes those acquisitions yet.

you are comparing years of work from vlade to 1 shortened year by mcnair. that's not really fair. if anything if you compared vlade's first year to monte's, then you will see a big difference. You will see WCS #6 vs Haliburton #12 in the draft. Free agency acquisitions of rondo ($9.5 mil), belinelli (3/$19mil), and koufos (4/$32.8 mil) vs Whiteside (vet minimum) , Metu , DJ. Then we have trades: for vlade we have "The Trade." The infamous trade with the sixers. The draft rights to Arturas Gudaitis, the draft rights to Luka Mitrovic and multiple TPEs were acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Philadelphia Sixers in exchange for Carl Landry, Nik Stauskas, Jason Thompson, a Swap 2016 1st round picks, a Swap 2017 1st round picks and a conditional 2019 1st round pick (it hurts just having to look up the details of this trade) vs wright for cojo and 2nd rounder, moe for bjeli, and TD for 2nd rounders. In my opinion, Monte hasnt blown my socks off, but I'd say he already has a leg up on vlade based on their first year. Whole body of work will be determined in time.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Monte was a ghost last year and it's looking more likely that's exactly why he was brought in.

This isn't directed at you STK, but some people think Monte was too active, you think he's a ghost. I saw a guy who really did shuffle the talent around, moving us in a more defensive direction. I was under the impression the start-the-season moves were made with a develop/rebuilding in mind, that wouldn't net us many wins. We had a few streaks (good and bad, and I am on record that the bad ones warrant Walton's firing). We did make moves at the deadline that a) seemed to be marginal improvements with an eye towards the new defensive identity and b) to make sure that in a year we are operating at the salary cap we have some contracts that continue into next season after loading up on one year deals at season's start.

So I actually think Monte did an admirable job working with what we have if the demand was this team try to win as many games as possible. I don't know why we went that approach, and given the low bar to reach the play-in, our inability to do so is again reason to fire Walton, but I guess there are reasons I'll never understand be it money or that people really genuinely do like Walton, that he's going to be back.

So I'm going to give Monte a C+ for the season with the caveat that the decision to shoot for the play-in and retain Walton may have come from above and those are my primary negatives. Positives - Haliburton, Davis and Wright. Hopefully Woodard and Ramsey develop into usable pieces, it is unfortunate the G-League was cut back so heavily that they really got short changed from what you might expect from project 2nd rounders, so they are incompletes. Louis King also showed himself in the dying embers of the season that maybe he is worth a look to start next year as well. I wouldn't mind keeping Harkless around as a depth piece. From a player acquisition side, I think he's doing better than Vlade. We can give Vlade a few big wins but he also has some major Ls in Bagley and Dedmon - who represents that last time we probably ever will have cap with this core to sign a FA.

 

[Turgenev]

I do think the Kings Fans spotlight was directed more strongly on the less popular moves Vlade made while he was here. Rather than re examining his tenure and saying he maybe he did have some wins, McNair must be no good, perhaps we can be sure to be more balanced with guys like McNair?

 

[SacTownKid]

What the hell are you talking about here?

LBJ's accomplishments as a player don't have any relation or comparison to Walton's coaching career.

Walton was part of 2 title winning teams as a player and does have "rings to his name" as you say.

So freaking what? The rings won as a player have nothing to do with his career as a head coach.

LBJ's accomplishments as a player have even less relevance.

Anything else you'd like to mention that also has no relevance whatsoever?

Yeah they do, he helped Walton get the axe and the very next season he won a ring. See the connection?

 

[SacTownKid]

This isn't directed at you STK, but some people think Monte was too active, you think he's a ghost. I saw a guy who really did shuffle the talent around, moving us in a more defensive direction. I was under the impression the start-the-season moves were made with a develop/rebuilding in mind, that wouldn't net us many wins. We had a few streaks (good and bad, and I am on record that the bad ones warrant Walton's firing). We did make moves at the deadline that a) seemed to be marginal improvements with an eye towards the new defensive identity and b) to make sure that in a year we are operating at the salary cap we have some contracts that continue into next season after loading up on one year deals at season's start.

So I actually think Monte did an admirable job working with what we have if the demand was this team try to win as many games as possible. I don't know why we went that approach, and given the low bar to reach the play-in, our inability to do so is again reason to fire Walton, but I guess there are reasons I'll never understand be it money or that people really genuinely do like Walton, that he's going to be back.

So I'm going to give Monte a C+ for the season with the caveat that the decision to shoot for the play-in and retain Walton may have come from above and those are my primary negatives. Positives - Haliburton, Davis and Wright. Hopefully Woodard and Ramsey develop into usable pieces, it is unfortunate the G-League was cut back so heavily that they really got short changed from what you might expect from project 2nd rounders, so they are incompletes. Louis King also showed himself in the dying embers of the season that maybe he is worth a look to start next year as well. I wouldn't mind keeping Harkless around as a depth piece. From a player acquisition side, I think he's doing better than Vlade. We can give Vlade a few big wins but he also has some major Ls in Bagley and Dedmon - who represents that last time we probably ever will have cap with this core to sign a FA.

He wasn't seen or heard for much of the year. This guy is supposed to be the head of the franchise here and 9 game losing streaks and all went by largely unattended. As you said he made some marginal moves at the deadline and they had marginal results. He signed end of the bench guys and 10 day contractors. He waived some guys. Yes, business at some points but mostly he was not even there. On the surface he didn't do a bad job, the issue is what is he being given to work with both in terms of true power structure and money. This summer is the proving ground. The honeymoon is now over and if these are part of the same issues that have plagued this organization since Vivek came aboard it should be fairly obvious.

 

[iowamcnabb]

He wasn't seen or heard for much of the year. This guy is supposed to be the head of the franchise here and 9 game losing streaks and all went by largely unattended. As you said he made some marginal moves at the deadline and they had marginal results. He signed end of the bench guys and 10 day contractors. He waived some guys. Yes, business at some points but mostly he was not even there. On the surface he didn't do a bad job, the issue is what is he being given to work with both in terms of true power structure and money. This summer is the proving ground. The honeymoon is now over and if these are part of the same issues that have plagued this organization since Vivek came aboard it should be fairly obvious.

lets not forget what he was given to work with.

-Buddy on a bloated contract
-Former number two pick with injury history and questionable skills for the position
-a promising center on a cheap contract they want to re-sign
-the 12th pick
-an ascending potential star player but one who has not made the all star team and a relatively poor shooter.
-a versatile sf on a fairly large contract
- a couple extra second round picks
- no cap space

This is what Monte walked in to. I just don’t see how that was going to be fixed in the time span he has been here. I think he is positioning the team to be active the off season after next.

 

[SacTownKid]

lets not forget what he was given to work with.

-Buddy on a bloated contract
-Former number two pick with injury history and questionable skills for the position
-a promising center on a cheap contract they want to re-sign
-the 12th pick
-an ascending potential star player but one who has not made the all star team and a relatively poor shooter.
-a versatile sf on a fairly large contract
- a couple extra second round picks
- no cap space

This is what Monte walked in to. I just don’t see how that was going to be fixed in the time span he has been here. I think he is positioning the team to be active the off season after next.

He was also given a deep team with a lot of experience on it, a superstar PG, and was gifted a solid ready out of the box player that dropped in the draft. The issue still is whether or not he had the power to change any of that. There was talk at the deadline about all of it, trading Barnes, Bagley, Buddy, etc. but they went a different way, failed, and the first move after is to keep it heading in the same direction with a holdover coach that had more than one extended losing streak to his name in one season that saw them have a chance to get to the 10 spot and still not pull it off. Now we wait because that's all there is to it. I don't think Monte should have set the dynamite but fading into the background and going along with the plan could mean some other not so promising things that the franchise might just be going around the same bend again with somebody else at the GM spot going along for the ride. One positive, or negative depending how you rate his moves, about Vlade was that he was unquestionably in charge. The moment even a bit of that power was going to be yanked from him he bailed.

 

[sactowndog]

you are comparing years of work from vlade to 1 shortened year by mcnair. that's not really fair. if anything if you compared vlade's first year to monte's, then you will see a big difference. You will see WCS #6 vs Haliburton #12 in the draft. Free agency acquisitions of rondo ($9.5 mil), belinelli (3/$19mil), and koufos (4/$32.8 mil) vs Whiteside (vet minimum) , Metu , DJ. Then we have trades: for vlade we have "The Trade." The infamous trade with the sixers. The draft rights to Arturas Gudaitis, the draft rights to Luka Mitrovic and multiple TPEs were acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Philadelphia Sixers in exchange for Carl Landry, Nik Stauskas, Jason Thompson, a Swap 2016 1st round picks, a Swap 2017 1st round picks and a conditional 2019 1st round pick (it hurts just having to look up the details of this trade) vs wright for cojo and 2nd rounder, moe for bjeli, and TD for 2nd rounders. In my opinion, Monte hasnt blown my socks off, but I'd say he already has a leg up on vlade based on their first year. Whole body of work will be determined in time.

the direct quote I was responding to compared McNair’s work to Vlade’s entire time here.

“if we stand pat, we ended up with TD and a Wagner or Moody or some other piece. All that plus Hali is more than Vlade accomplished in his time here.”

If he had said he had a better first year then Vlade I would have agreed but that isn’t what was said.

As far as his acquisitions we have yet to see how well or not they played out. Granted he did not make the Philly trade but if your bar is not making one of the worst moves in GM history.... that’s a pretty low bar.

 

[sactowndog]

lets not forget what he was given to work with.

-Buddy on a bloated contract
-Former number two pick with injury history and questionable skills for the position
-a promising center on a cheap contract they want to re-sign
-the 12th pick
-an ascending potential star player but one who has not made the all star team and a relatively poor shooter.
-a versatile sf on a fairly large contract
- a handful extra second round picks
- no cap space
- a 2 guard that averaged over 20 ppg as a starter on a 5 seed team this year
- Non-Guaranteed Salary
* Nemanja Bjelica ($7,150,000) 1
* Kyle Guy (two-way)


This is what Monte walked in to. I just don’t see how that was going to be fixed in the time span he has been here. I think he is positioning the team to be active the off season after next.

you left a number of items off the list. In his first year he:

1. finished in a worse position but still long shot lottery land
2. Guaranteed Nemanja then got nothing for him
3. lost draft capital,
4. tied up more cap space with Delon.
5. Lost your (at the time) second most valuable asset for nothing
6. Put yourself in position to lose another valuable asset for nothing in Holmes

 

[kingsboi]

First, why would anyone want LeBron’s opinion on anything? While an all-time great talent, he’s proven himself to be an overly sensitive, mentally weak pansy. He can’t handle criticism of any kind, historically shrinks and defers to others under pressure and surrounds himself with ‘Yes’ people.

As for the reason it went down as it did, re-read the above paragraph. LBJ is the problem. He’s had issues with other coaches too, along with GM’s, owners, etc. and has to hand pick his own guy. An LBJ yes man.

This is the same dude that had the audacity to complain to the media that he didn’t have enough help a season after winning the title with Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving and Co. Same dude that had to defer to Dwayne Wade to see how it’s supposed to be done. Same dude that couldn’t hack it in the Western Conference w/o Anthony Davis. But I digress.

I’m not a proponent for Luke Walton. Like others, I see him as a big part of the problem. But I’m also not closed off to the idea that, like players, perhaps the guy can improve. And with the KINGS financial situation, Walton’s contract extending 3 more seasons and Swipa’s recent semi-endorsement of him — I’m not against his return for one more season come hell or high water.

Regardless of my feeling about that, I still feel it’s important to be accurate and fair. Some of you aren’t being accurate and fair. But that doesn’t mean I feel he’s a great coach. Or the right coach. Whatever the truth is, how LeBron James feels about him doesn’t factor in at all for me. For the reasons stated. That dude would probably have problems with Phil Jackson’s mental approach. He doesn’t work well with anyone that has an ego half as large as his own and that doesn’t run the team as he sees fit.

didn't he want Spoelstra out as head coach during his Miami tenure?

 

[iowamcnabb]

you left a number of items off the list. In his first year he:

1. finished in a worse position but still long shot lottery land
2. Guaranteed Nemanja then got nothing for him
3. lost draft capital,
4. tied up more cap space with Delon.
5. Lost your (at the time) second most valuable asset for nothing
6. Put yourself in position to lose another valuable asset for nothing in Holmes

i don’t consider TD lost draft capital. I also think he realized he would have no cap space next year so he tied up delon as an upgrade over Joseph. Nemanja apparently had no value so I’m not sure what else he could have got for him. We have been over the Bogi stuff

 

[steelevt]

the direct quote I was responding to compared McNair’s work to Vlade’s entire time here.

“if we stand pat, we ended up with TD and a Wagner or Moody or some other piece. All that plus Hali is more than Vlade accomplished in his time here.”

If he had said he had a better first year then Vlade I would have agreed but that isn’t what was said.

As far as his acquisitions we have yet to see how well or not they played out. Granted he did not make the Philly trade but if your bar is not making one of the worst moves in GM history.... that’s a pretty low bar.

My bad. I didn’t see that part you were responding to.

 

[Noble]

What concerns me most, regardless of coach, is this ultimate goal of making the playoffs. That right there is already a losers mentality, top down. You play to win the CHAMPIONSHIP.

 

[SLAB]

What concerns me most, regardless of coach, is this ultimate goal of making the playoffs. That right there is already a losers mentality, top down. You play to win the CHAMPIONSHIP.

The Sacramento Kings play for the play-in tournament. Lmao

 

[iowamcnabb]

What concerns me most, regardless of coach, is this ultimate goal of making the playoffs. That right there is already a losers mentality, top down. You play to win the CHAMPIONSHIP.

the NBA is not a league where everyone has a shot at the championship. You basically need to be in one of the 3 or 4 big markets or get really really lucky in the draft. There are a couple exceptions but not many. Making the playoffs consistently would be a major accomplishment for the Kings franchise.

 

[sactowndog]

i don’t consider TD lost draft capital. I also think he realized he would have no cap space next year so he tied up delon as an upgrade over Joseph. Nemanja apparently had no value so I’m not sure what else he could have got for him. We have been over the Bogi stuff

the point being we have fewer draft picks than when he got here. We shall see if we retain TD. It isn’t a given. Nor is it a given how we will use him next year.

 

[sactowndog]

i don’t consider TD lost draft capital. I also think he realized he would have no cap space next year so he tied up delon as an upgrade over Joseph. Nemanja apparently had no value so I’m not sure what else he could have got for him. We have been over the Bogi stuff

that’s fine but you can’t magically erase what he was given. He was given Bogi on a restricted free agent deal.

 

[sactowndog]

the NBA is not a league where everyone has a shot at the championship. You basically need to be in one of the 3 or 4 big markets or get really really lucky in the draft. There are a couple exemptions but not many. Making the playoffs consistently would be a major accomplishment for the Kings franchise.

luck alone isn’t enough as Vlade has proven.

 

[pshn80]

Very happy next year’s head coach has been selected already. I have no problem with Walton. Let’s get on with it.

 

[The Effort Police]

while I’m far from a Vlade fan but Vlade got us Fox and Bogi and Holmes. I haven’t seen anything from McNair that supersedes those acquisitions yet.

That's more because Vlade was inexplicably given a five year tenure.

You can say he acquired those guys but then look behind the curtain and it's more like he went 1/9 on first round selections and 2/9 on notable free agent signings. Bogi had a subpar tenure here but I'll admit he's good value for the 27th pick that you flipped a lotto bust for.

Not to mention Haliburton is already a better acquisition than both Bogi and Holmes. And the Fox draft was pure dumb luck because he actively sabotaged his draft chances and moved up in spite of it.

At the point McNair is right now the only things Vlade had done was take WCS in the lottery and make a terrible trade.

 

[mac]

What concerns me most, regardless of coach, is this ultimate goal of making the playoffs. That right there is already a losers mentality, top down. You play to win the CHAMPIONSHIP.

Like SLAB said, Walton was distinctly asked whether the play-in tournament would qualify as "playoffs" and he said yes.

 

[sactowndog]

That's more because Vlade was inexplicably given a five year tenure.

You can say he acquired those guys but then look behind the curtain and it's more like he went 1/9 on first round selections and 2/9 on notable free agent signings. Bogi had a subpar tenure here but I'll admit he's good value for the 27th pick that you flipped a lotto bust for.

Not to mention Haliburton is already a better acquisition than both Bogi and Holmes. And the Fox draft was pure dumb luck because he actively sabotaged his draft chances and moved up in spite of it.

At the point McNair is right now the only things Vlade had done was take WCS in the lottery and make a terrible trade.

Bogi just averaged 20 plus ppg game as a starter for Atlanta. Hali could well be great and I love the pick but he is not close to a better acquisition than Bogi yet.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

And the Fox draft was pure dumb luck because he actively sabotaged his draft chances and moved up in spite of it.

You’re labeling it dumb luck because it doesn’t support the lame tanking ideas you guys have.

Was it dumb luck when SAC landed the #4 pick the season they suffered the worst record in the league?

Maybe their eventual draft position was karma in both instances.

 

[ESP47]

Bogi just averaged 20 plus ppg game as a starter for Atlanta. Hali could well be great and I love the pick but he is not close to a better acquisition than Bogi yet.

Hindsight is 20/20. No one predicted Bogi would be this good for Atlanta. It would have been a fairly easy prediction to say that his productivity would jump after getting out from under Walton but we couldn't have foreseen this kind of jump in productivity.

 

[sactowndog]

Hindsight is 20/20. No one predicted Bogi would be this good for Atlanta. It would have been a fairly easy prediction to say that his productivity would jump after getting out from under Walton but we couldn't have foreseen this kind of jump in productivity.

well I would argue if you looked at Bogi’s three point shooting percentages from catch and shoot 3’s it was predictable. Atlanta does a better job of running Bogi off the ball and getting him open weakside threes. Now to be fair, part of that is because the Kings had Buddy in that role and I agree lots of overlap exists between Buddy and Bogi.

 

[Iced Espresso]

D'Antoni interested in the Portland job.

And we have Walton.......