State of the Kings Pre-trade Deadline Edition

[SacTownKid]

As much as I love Holmes... If you could get Nesmith, Bob Williams (Holmes 2.0) and their 1st? I think you seriously consider that deal. My preference is to clean Buddy/Barnes first and sign Holmes to a longer-term deal though.

Yeah, this whole things sucks to me. These pieces can work and Holmes/Bagley could easily be your C pick and roll rotation for anyone thinking about how to make it work but oh well. Holmes has to be at an all time high value wise and while underpaid relative to value he's expiring. He's going to cost the Kings more money to stay and rather than creating this continuous issue of Holmes vs. Bagley they have to choose a direction there. We are seeing it play out without question, Bagley to be maximized is going to have to play a ton at center. He's looked good there in the small unit when used right. As a PF next to Holmes standing in the corner he disappears.

 

[SacTownKid]

I for one, would love to keep Whiteside around for now. I don’t think you need to play him big minutes but he can definitely contribute still in spurts and is a good vet presence to have on the team ala Shump x Scores days. Especially if we’re not seeing a return, I just don’t see any point in buying him out

The thing at some point becomes him having to sit some games. As a franchise you have to do the right thing and let players go. If not it will become increasingly more difficult to bring in players like him on minimum deals. That might have been part of how they landed him. He had a locked in role and in a worst case perhaps they would let him go.

 

[bajaden]

Not necessarily. Today was the guarantee date for the remainder of the season.

Bingo!

 

[ESP47]

Problem with trading Buddy is that his value is at an all time low. I don't think the Kings could get much of anything for him at the moment.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Problem with trading Buddy is that his value is at an all time low. I don't think the Kings could get much of anything for him at the moment.

id rather just hold on to him and let him come off the bench next season. If we are winning he will get over it as he is a good teammate. He knows he hasn’t been good this year

 

[iowamcnabb]

CAP TYPE CAP TOTAL
Active Roster Cap $106,152,442
Dead Money $980,930
Cap Holds $13,501,564
Total Cap Allocations $120,634,936
2020 NBA Salary Cap Max $109,140,000
Cap Max Space $-11,494,900

Can anyone explain what our cap holds for this year are?

 

[KingsFanSince85]

If I’m being honest, I think it’s clear that Tyrese Haliburton is already the best all-around player on the team.

Fox is the teams best one-on-one iso scorer. No doubts about that. And Swipa is clearly a very good facilitator, play maker and defender when he focuses on it.

IDK what the analytics say, but my eyes tell me that Tyrese plays the best wing defense on the team, or at least gives the most consistent effort and produces the most consistent results. He clearly is already the most capable and dynamic play maker. He’s proven to be a very consistent shooter as well. Outside of Richaun Holmes push shot from within 15 feet, is there another player with more consistency from the perimeter?

Hali’s only perceived weaknesses happen to be Swipa’s strengths. But beyond that, he’s looks to me to be as good or better in most other areas. All he’s lacking is experience and more strength. Something Swipa didn’t have early on either.

Very few will ever match De’Aaron’s speed and quickness. That’s honestly what sets him apart from the average player.

Both players are very smart and have high basketball IQ’s, which is why I like both players so damned much.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

If Monte wants to start some sort of reset then he should look at combining Barnes and Holmes together. I was thinking that might be a way for a team like the Celtics to really bite. A combo of those two might be able to put a team over the top.

Maybe I’m in the minority on this, but I really don’t want to lose Richaun Holmes. That kid has flourished since joining the franchise and clearly loves being here.

Furthermore, Holmes is exactly the type of player a really good team needs. He plays unselfishly, exceptionally hard and is very productive. He has a money ”go to” shot and doesn’t need the ball in his hands all the time to be effective. He converts free throws at an acceptable rate.

And he plays hard on both ends. He’s a gamer. He’s just a really good player.
Did I mention he loves playing in SAC?

He’s one player aside from Swipa and Hali that I wouldn’t be looking to move. He can very much be part of a winning solution for the KINGS.

I think HB can be part of it too.

Really, Buddy is the only starter I’m not sold on. And MB3 still has much to prove. But Holmes, HB, Swipa, and Hali can all be part of a winning core.

It’s all the other pieces they need to figure out.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Maybe I’m in the minority on this, but I really don’t want to lose Richaun Holmes. That kid has flourished since joining the franchise and clearly loves being here.

Furthermore, Holmes is exactly the type of player a really good team needs. He plays unselfishly, exceptionally hard and is very productive. He has a money ”go to” shot and doesn’t need the ball in his hands all the time to be effective. He converts free throws at an acceptable rate.

And he plays hard on both ends. He’s a gamer. He’s just a really good player.
Did I mention he loves playing in SAC?

He’s one player aside from Swipa and Hali that I wouldn’t be looking to move. He can very much be part of a winning solution for the KINGS.

We are probably going to need to move Barnes or Hield to afford Holmes next contract. The trade deadline can't get here soon enough so we know the direction on the team going forward.

 

[ppine]

Trading Harrison Barnes would be a huge mistake. The Kings' have the worst defense in the league. Barnes and Fox are the two best defenders. Halliburton is good. Either Hield or Bagley probably have to go because they are both defensive liabilities. Bagley has improved some though.
I would be very sad to see Mista Holmes get traded.

Coach Walton does not seem to have much support here, but it remains to be seen what the FO thinks. I have never seen a team win 7 of 8 and then lose 8 in a row. I don't get it really.

 

[steelevt]

Maybe I’m in the minority on this, but I really don’t want to lose Richaun Holmes. That kid has flourished since joining the franchise and clearly loves being here.

Furthermore, Holmes is exactly the type of player a really good team needs. He plays unselfishly, exceptionally hard and is very productive. He has a money ”go to” shot and doesn’t need the ball in his hands all the time to be effective. He converts free throws at an acceptable rate.

And he plays hard on both ends. He’s a gamer. He’s just a really good player.
Did I mention he loves playing in SAC?

He’s one player aside from Swipa and Hali that I wouldn’t be looking to move. He can very much be part of a winning solution for the KINGS.

I think HB can be part of it too.

Really, Buddy is the only starter I’m not sold on. And MB3 still has much to prove. But Holmes, HB, Swipa, and Hali can all be part of a winning core.

It’s all the other pieces they need to figure out.

I don’t really want to lose him either. Not every championship team needs 5 all stars. Holmes can be our glue guy/consistent role player. What’s the most you would pay to keep him though?

 

[mbkings10]

Who would be your dream coach to go after? Does anyone see a scenario where Denver struggles to a low seed and either lose in the play in game or lose in 4 or 5 in the first round and they fire Malone? Then Malone coming back? Crazier things have happened like Phil Jackson writing a book trashing the star player, then coming back a year later to coach said star player.

 

[macadocious]

Lol

Malone is N E V E R coming back.

 

[Turgenev]

Nice summary. Fox and Hali can both become all stars - so hopefully they will be equally great but different.

So far this season, for me:
- Whiteside has shown the value of having a big body and genuine rim protector on the floor. Last year Len did similar re the size.
- Bagley is putting games together and getting better. Still has a ways to go. I think he is more of a long term 4 than a 5, but know there is at least one person here who will disagree.
- Buddy's on court production has decreased. I think some of that is how he is utilised. Some of it might be him.
- We are very thin.
- Although the team is thin, we have veteran players who we do not use. Belly's range and basketball skills should make him an attractive option for a contender. I have no idea what Jabari offers. Given he looked pretty good early on in his career, we have players on minutes restrictions, and several prolonged losing streaks, seems like a missed opportunity to learn more about JP.
- Cory Joseph is not suited to Luke Walton's read and react offence (if that's what it is) and isn't all that good defensively either.
- Although Guy has been touted as a good shooter, I haven't seen him hit much since pre season. I'm sure he is a good shooter, but you only get so many shots. Maybe if his minutes were more consistent...
- Not going to over react to Woodard's G league stats but hope he gets some run in the last month or two. It's not like they don't have the games.
- Luke still isn't the coach for me. He wasn't during the bubble and nothing that he has shown prior to his Kings tenure or over the course of the season has changed that. But I will acknowledge that he has had a young and thin roster, as well as some injuries.
- Monte had a great draft. But since his free agent acquisitions seem like ring ins, and since he's mostly sat still while Walton has lead us to the worst defensive record and several prolonged losing streaks, I feel he is thinking about the long game.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I don’t really want to lose him either. Not every championship team needs 5 all stars. Holmes can be our glue guy/consistent role player. What’s the most you would pay to keep him though?

Great question. IDK.

If he loves being in SAC as much as he professes, hopefully they can convince him to agree to something less than the average going rate for a player of his ability, production and impact.

 

[mac]

I thought it would be a good time to evaluate where we are and discuss the big decisions Monte has in the next month.

Fox- has improved this year and has shown flashes of being a legitimate star. Doesn't make as much of an impact on defense as I think he should. Still can't hit free throws (He must improve this by next season. Anything less than 75 percent is a total failure on his part)

Haliburton- His ascension continues as he gains more minutes and confidence. The tools are there for him to be an all star level player and he has the determination to do it.

Buddy- I don't see the team moving him, but I do think we need to transition him to a bench role. My guess is we let him start the remainder of the year but id like to see him slim down this offseason (more yoga less weights) and settle into the deadly sniper off the bench

Bagley- I like his progress the last couple weeks. He has a long way to go but we need to see heavy minutes out of him after the deadline. We have until next years trade deadline to decide whether we want to keep him or ship him off.

Holmes- I want to sign Rich to a contract extension. He isn't perfect, but I love his energy and efficiency. However, if Monte doesn't plan to re-sign him (and he should know by now) then we need to trade him.

Barnes- Love Harrison but he is the most logical to go. We would be selling high as he will probably never have more value.

DQJ- more minutes for him to figure out where he fits. He is a great depth piece by my view

Edit forgot Belly- who will Nemanja end up with? Philly or Miami seem the most interested?

Whiteside- Could make an argument that we should keep him and try to sign him to small deal this offseason. Seems like a good locker room guy and would be best suited for about 12 minutes a game sharing the floor with a bunch of guys that can score.

Woodard- the G league season is over fairly soon and I would expect we see him getting minutes after the deadline. I am not going to get too excited over his tape just yet

Walton- Will he be fired in or after season? That is really the only question at this point.

James/Guy/Ramsey/Metu- probably not a ton to discuss with these guys. I like Metu's potential but who knows if we will even see him again this season.

Great objective assessment, props! Extra points for leaving CoJo off the roster.

 

[mac]

Who would be your dream coach to go after? Does anyone see a scenario where Denver struggles to a low seed and either lose in the play in game or lose in 4 or 5 in the first round and they fire Malone? Then Malone coming back? Crazier things have happened like Phil Jackson writing a book trashing the star player, then coming back a year later to coach said star player.

Honestly, I wish we'd just go for D'Antoni and be done with it. I'm not about to sit here chanting Championship or Bust after not even tasting the playoffs for a decade and a half, while simultaneously whining about losing culture in the organization and being mad when people say nobody wants to come to Sac. D'Antoni gets our roster to the playoffs, and with a better one maybe the second round at some point. Then you re-evaluate and see what moves you need to make to get over the hump. You don't go from THE perennial wors teams in the league to championship contender in one step, both in terms of roster/talent and coaching.

 

[whozit]

CAP TYPE CAP TOTAL
Active Roster Cap $106,152,442
Dead Money $980,930
Cap Holds $13,501,564
Total Cap Allocations $120,634,936
2020 NBA Salary Cap Max $109,140,000
Cap Max Space $-11,494,900

Can anyone explain what our cap holds for this year are?

I am thinking they are the mid-level exception, biannual exception and a TPE from the Dedmon trade.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

Great question. IDK.

If he loves being in SAC as much as he professes, hopefully they can convince him to agree to something less than the average going rate for a player of his ability, production and impact.

Dwight Powell makes $12M a year. Cody Zeller makes $15M a year. Gorgui Dieng makes $17M. Looking at all centers salaries it's hard for me to see him making anything less than $18M. A good, high energy center who can hit free throws at almost an 80% clip is a major commodity to teams. I would love to see him stay but also wouldn't be upset to see him leave because of a major contract. He and his family seem like great people.

 

[Tetsujin]

Dwight Powell makes $12M a year. Cody Zeller makes $15M a year. Gorgui Dieng makes $17M. Looking at all centers salaries it's hard for me to see him making anything less than $18M. A good, high energy center who can hit free throws at almost an 80% clip is a major commodity to teams. I would love to see him stay but also wouldn't be upset to see him leave because of a major contract. He and his family seem like great people.

To be fair, all those contracts were considered massive overpays at the time of their signing and have only gotten worse with age.

 

[macadocious]

Someone recently said on here that Barnes was overpaid by 3-4MM per year and we'd be luck to dump him.

I've listen to a couple podcasts now where people have discussed him being worth up to to 1st RD picks and a young player, maybe with a not so great contract to match.

I'll be interested to see what happens with him in the next 2 weeks.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Someone recently said on here that Barnes was overpaid by 3-4MM per year and we'd be luck to dump him.

I've listen to a couple podcasts now where people have discussed him being worth up to to 1st RD picks and a young player, maybe with a not so great contract to match.

I'll be interested to see what happens with him in the next 2 weeks.

I think he is worth a first rounder for sure but I am curious who the potential buyers are. Boston is playing .500 ball and will probably have to hook a bigger fish to get back in contention. I have recently brought up the Knicks and Bulls as teams that might be interested. Not sure who else is out there

 

[206Fan]

For me, what makes Haliburton special is his passing and playmaking ability (in that order). His bball IQ is off the charts. Everything he does is very calculated and there's very little wasted motion. However, I don't think he'll ever be able to reach his true playmaking potential playing next to a PG (Fox). For guards to be stars in the league, scoring is the most important thing. Haliburton will need to get better at creating his own shots. He'll have to learn to be more aggressive attacking the rim. I think he has one of the lowest FT rates in the league. He only averages 0.7 attempts a game. While you may argue that 5.4/10.2 field goal attempts a game are from 3pt line, Buddy is at 10.2/14, yet still averages 1.8 FTA. His 3pt shooting isn't really an excuse for him not being able to get to the line more. It's more his aggressiveness.


In regards to Fox, while he's made improvements as a scorer this year, we need to see him be able to shoot more consistently. While he's improved at 35% from the 3pt line, he's regressed at 67.5% from the FT line. This tells me that his shooting still needs work. Fox has all the tools to be an elite defender, but he has been very underwhelming on that end. If he can become a good defender, he'd be one of the best 2-way PGs in the league... too bad he's probably average at best.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

To be fair, all those contracts were considered massive overpays at the time of their signing and have only gotten worse with age.

That was more or less my point. The center market can get wild. Teams overpay for centers all the time, often for guys way worse than Holmes. Even going back to the Omer Asik and Marcin Gortat deals from a few years ago. I still think teams are paying $10M+ to those guys today. We even gave Dedmon ~$13M a year, and he didn't show the talent that Holmes shows us now. It seems like as long as the center isn't a complete net negative that they will get a pretty lucrative contract.

 

[Livinthedream]

Can't see Holmes getting more than 10-12mil. That is more than Harrell gets right now. Kings run their offense around Fox and Holmes. I can't imagine another team that see's him as that type of focal piece. He is more than likely a bench big for most teams. This may be another situation where the Kings may value the player more than most of the rest of the league.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Can't see Holmes getting more than 10-12mil. That is more than Harrell gets right now. Kings run their offense around Fox and Holmes. I can't imagine another team that see's him as that type of focal piece. He is more than likely a bench big for most teams. This may be another situation where the Kings may value the player more than most of the rest of the league.

if he is willing to sign for 4/48 that’s a no brainer for the Kings.

 

[Gguod]

The question with Holmes isnt wether he is a good player or not or wether he is gives his all or hustles a lot. The question simply is: what is the contract you would be willing to keep him with. Every Kings fan would want to keep him in a vaccume but not many would be willing to give him 4/80mil. When discussing about keeping him one should give his absolute limit for retaining him and then evaluate wether he will able to get that from the open market. If his possible offer from the open market exceeds the percentage of cap you'd be willing to pay him, then he should be traded for what the best offer is.

Depending on what advanced metric you are looking at, hes around average starting center in this league with his strenghts and weaknesses (maybe above average). Would be nice to keep him for cheap but as we know, starting level centers are found for near minimum every year in the free agency so that shoul be accounted for when considering keeping him and the price you would be willing to keep him with.

 

[Livinthedream]

The question with Holmes isnt wether he is a good player or not or wether he is gives his all or hustles a lot. The question simply is: what is the contract you would be willing to keep him with. Every Kings fan would want to keep him in a vaccume but not many would be willing to give him 4/80mil. When discussing about keeping him one should give his absolute limit for retaining him and then evaluate wether he will able to get that from the open market. If his possible offer from the open market exceeds the percentage of cap you'd be willing to pay him, then he should be traded for what the best offer is.

Depending on what advanced metric you are looking at, hes around average starting center in this league with his strenghts and weaknesses (maybe above average). Would be nice to keep him for cheap but as we know, starting level centers are found for near minimum every year in the free agency so that shoul be accounted for when considering keeping him and the price you would be willing to keep him with.

This is pretty much it. It's not too hard to find a C that only needs to do a minimum of things. Set good screens, score garbage/gimme baskets, rebound at a decent clip and take up space on defense. Kings fans loved Len and this is pretty much all he did. It's what Holmes does. Swap out the size and taking up space with being able to move his feet better on defense makes him a small ball C.

Despite everything else, the Kings did Marvin a bit of a favor by allowing him to play the PF position and shoot 3s. The versatility to go between 2 positions and provide spacing significantly changes his value in the league.

 

[The_Jamal]

The question with Holmes isnt wether he is a good player or not or wether he is gives his all or hustles a lot. The question simply is: what is the contract you would be willing to keep him with. Every Kings fan would want to keep him in a vaccume but not many would be willing to give him 4/80mil. When discussing about keeping him one should give his absolute limit for retaining him and then evaluate wether he will able to get that from the open market. If his possible offer from the open market exceeds the percentage of cap you'd be willing to pay him, then he should be traded for what the best offer is.

Depending on what advanced metric you are looking at, hes around average starting center in this league with his strenghts and weaknesses (maybe above average). Would be nice to keep him for cheap but as we know, starting level centers are found for near minimum every year in the free agency so that shoul be accounted for when considering keeping him and the price you would be willing to keep him with.

For sure better than him:
Jokic
Embiid
KAT
Bam
Sabonis
Gobert
Vuc


Probably better than him, but at least a discussion:
Capela
Brook Lopez
Myles Turner
Ayton
Nurk (if healthy)

After that though? I think you could probably slot him 11th-13th fairly comfortably. And what makes him valuable is you can fit him with star wings and not have your offense built around him like most of the top 10 C's. Center certainly isn't as valuable a position anymore, but what Holmes does on defense with his ability to hedge the perimeter while still able to protect the rim is an incredible valuable skill-set that's hard to find. Especially in a super productive offensive player (68% TS in last 71 games).

Assuming we flipped Barnes AND Buddy, I'd be willing to go 18mil a year. His skill-set is too valuable to let walk.

 

[ppine]

There are 30 teams in the NBA and you rank him around 10th-12th.
Minimizing the contributions of a guy like Mr. Holmes is a mistake. He plays defense and rebounds. He runs the floor and leads the league in field goal percentage. He does not turn the ball over compared to most centers. He has foul issues.