Bagley.
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
I
its not my fault that u don’t want to understand me. I think I made my case clear enough. But again it’s not marvins fault that our FO picked him. And maybe some day he can really become a winning basketball player.
But I’m really concerned about his basketball talent. It’s just so weird idk how to explain when i watch him play I kinda try really hard to find good things to hope that he may be somehow a potential all star, but he don’t looks like he can match that kind of expectation at all.
its not my fault that u don’t want to understand me. I think I made my case clear enough. But again it’s not marvins fault that our FO picked him. And maybe some day he can really become a winning basketball player.
But I’m really concerned about his basketball talent. It’s just so weird idk how to explain when i watch him play I kinda try really hard to find good things to hope that he may be somehow a potential all star, but he don’t looks like he can match that kind of expectation at all.
I understand you. It feeds into Marvin's faults being greatly exaggerated. I listed Marvin's accomplishments to show that he was not a reach pick. That is all. He has the proven record of being a high performer everywhere he's gone. Marvin didn't trick the NBA into drafting him, or into putting him on the NBA rookie team, or on the USA basketball team. Organizations whose job it is to evaluate talent keep picking Marvin.
You know, Marvin is still really engaged on the bench and genuinely celebratory of the team when they win. Honestly, I didn’t think we’d see that from him, and it speaks volumes. I’m glad to have been wrong. This has been a tough year for him. If he’s still a King next year, I think he’ll have a major bounce back year.
Preytell, just exactly what is that your looking for in the way of talent. He came into this league as a young 19 year old. He was a young man out there with seasoned veteran players, and he managed to average 14 ppg, and 7 boards a game. That by the way doubles what Giannis did in his first year in the NBA. At the same point in time, Bagley is a better ballhandler than Giannis was his rookie year. Yes, he's gotten by with his athleticism to a large degree, but then wouldn't you, as 15 or 16 year old if you could dominate the competition.
I've watched NBA basketball for over 50 years, and trust me, most of your elite athlete's that come into the league, especially big's, have gotten by mostly on their athleticism. And I referring to one and done players. Those that stay in college for 3 or 4 years come in far more skilled and ready to play. There have been one and done's that have taken 4 to 5 years to finally reach their peak. Bagley is loaded with potential. Does that mean he'll reach that potential? My guess, if he can stay healthy, is yes. He's a known hard worker, and those that put in the work usually reach their goals.
Bagley only has one problem, and that's his health. We have to hope it's just been a run of bad luck. None of his injuries really concerned me except for the foot injury. I've seen too many players have their careers shortened by chronic foot problems. A healthy bagley with underdeveloped skills is capable of averaging 20 pt's and 10 boards. To me, that's his floor. He's capable of much more.
I've watched NBA basketball for over 50 years, and trust me, most of your elite athlete's that come into the league, especially big's, have gotten by mostly on their athleticism. And I referring to one and done players. Those that stay in college for 3 or 4 years come in far more skilled and ready to play. There have been one and done's that have taken 4 to 5 years to finally reach their peak. Bagley is loaded with potential. Does that mean he'll reach that potential? My guess, if he can stay healthy, is yes. He's a known hard worker, and those that put in the work usually reach their goals.
Bagley only has one problem, and that's his health. We have to hope it's just been a run of bad luck. None of his injuries really concerned me except for the foot injury. I've seen too many players have their careers shortened by chronic foot problems. A healthy bagley with underdeveloped skills is capable of averaging 20 pt's and 10 boards. To me, that's his floor. He's capable of much more.
While you're not factually wrong, I'm pretty sure Parker would have been rookie 1st team if not for his season ending injury in December. His sophomore season he was in the rising stars game. So by all accounts, he and Bagley were not too different in their production/potential at the end of their second year marks
you could go by his per 36 over the 75 games he has played. 21pts 10.8reb in his first 2 seasons. figuring progression level of a power forward thats not even 21 years old yet. I think 20/10 is a reasonable assumption. thats not the part i am worried about. i have no doubt he can put up those numbers. its what he does on defense and if he is a black hole on offense. Cousins put up great numbers with us but it lead to nothing. now if bagley can get that 20/10 and fox, buddy, bogdan, barnes still getting there 15-20 then that would be great. the lineup management of Walton is gonna be tricky if everybody returns. i am not sure what it would cost us to keep Bazemore another 3 years but i would be looking into that for sure. This is gonna be an important offseason for Vlade. we gotta lose a Center and a SG
The question at least to me is how will he develope into a winning player and what his role is going to be. I'm not worried about his point or rebound totals, I'm worried how much value would he bring for winning basketball games since even with his per36 numbers (a stat that I dont care about that much), he hasnt contributed to winning yet.
Offensively, what is he? Lets start with the asssumption that we run 4out-1in system (thats what we've been most succesfull with, thats what Walton likes to run and its hard to be an above average offense without 4 shooters at the floor). What is Bagleys role in that offense. Will he be one of the outside guys? That raises few questions:
Is he good enough shooter to provide value without ball in his hands?
Is his handles and vision good enough to handle the ball outside the arc creating offense for himself/others?
How efficent could he be as a low post iso player if the lane is clogged by another big man while also considering that post possessions are generally very low efficent?
Imo he is none of those things yet and based on his college and Nba film I dont know how probable it is that he developes his shooting or handling enough. I really hope he does and I'm not saying its impossible. I dont have any percentages to give but developing those things isnt a sure thing imo
To me ideally he would be the only inside guy offensively. Setting screens, catching lobs, being a play finisher. Thats his strength and thats where he could be really good at. But thats the problem. In order to do that, he needs four shooters around him. Would he be the center and is he good enough defender to be the primary rim protector AND the primary defender of the pick n roll? To this date he isnt nearly good enough to do that and its quite rare you develope from bad to good in this area closely related on bbiq. Thats why we felt we had to overpay for Dedmon. There just arent many decent defending stretch 5 type of guys.
Then there is the question about his overall defense. His role/fit wont matter unless he improves a lot on basic understanding of the rotations and where and when you should move in certain situations.
So the two questions remains to me: How will he develope to a winning player and whats his fit. Can he provide more value than average (or slightly below) starter type of guys like Bjelica or Holmes that both provide value by doing their specific role that itself is valuable. Bjelicas presence itself provides value because him being behind the 3point line provides spacing and that leads to a more efficent offense. Holmes is efficent as a play finisher plus he is a good defender.
Offensively, what is he? Lets start with the asssumption that we run 4out-1in system (thats what we've been most succesfull with, thats what Walton likes to run and its hard to be an above average offense without 4 shooters at the floor). What is Bagleys role in that offense. Will he be one of the outside guys? That raises few questions:
Is he good enough shooter to provide value without ball in his hands?
Is his handles and vision good enough to handle the ball outside the arc creating offense for himself/others?
How efficent could he be as a low post iso player if the lane is clogged by another big man while also considering that post possessions are generally very low efficent?
Imo he is none of those things yet and based on his college and Nba film I dont know how probable it is that he developes his shooting or handling enough. I really hope he does and I'm not saying its impossible. I dont have any percentages to give but developing those things isnt a sure thing imo
To me ideally he would be the only inside guy offensively. Setting screens, catching lobs, being a play finisher. Thats his strength and thats where he could be really good at. But thats the problem. In order to do that, he needs four shooters around him. Would he be the center and is he good enough defender to be the primary rim protector AND the primary defender of the pick n roll? To this date he isnt nearly good enough to do that and its quite rare you develope from bad to good in this area closely related on bbiq. Thats why we felt we had to overpay for Dedmon. There just arent many decent defending stretch 5 type of guys.
Then there is the question about his overall defense. His role/fit wont matter unless he improves a lot on basic understanding of the rotations and where and when you should move in certain situations.
So the two questions remains to me: How will he develope to a winning player and whats his fit. Can he provide more value than average (or slightly below) starter type of guys like Bjelica or Holmes that both provide value by doing their specific role that itself is valuable. Bjelicas presence itself provides value because him being behind the 3point line provides spacing and that leads to a more efficent offense. Holmes is efficent as a play finisher plus he is a good defender.
Last edited:
The idea that the only way to play basketball is by having 4 3pt shooters and one big man who catches lobs and blocks shot is extremely uncreative and is not the only way top teams win in the NBA. Teams win by fitting role players around their most talented 2 or 3 guys. Not by discarding talent when they don't fit a system.
There is no system that Lebron James, Giannis, Leonard or AD must fit into in order to be valuable. They ARE the system. Luka IS the system. The reason Luke Walton is not in LA now is because he didn't understand that. The reason Lonzo Ball and Ingram are thriving now is because they aren't being stiffled by a system designed to make less talented players more efficient. Kuzma don't look so good now. Draymond not so great when he isn't supported by talent. You think people in New Orleans are complaining that Zion clogs the middle or that he might get in Ingram's way? Maybe he won't work well with Favors because both are post scorers?
This isn't about comparing Bagley to any of those guys. It's to state that the team talent dictates the style of play. Trying to take away all that Marvin COULD bring and just saying he needs to hang out until someone throws him a lob is short sighted and a waste of offensive talent. Winning basketball starts with coaches putting players in winning positions. The offense Luke is trying to run is very prevalent in high school and helps even the playing field for teams that are guard heavy. It is effective in the NBA when your 2 or 3 best players are guards who are great shooter/scores. Not good. Great. But that still comes down to playing to your talent.
Dedmon was absolutely the right role player to fit around the talent. I'm not convinced Walton and Vlade are 100% on the same page.
There is no system that Lebron James, Giannis, Leonard or AD must fit into in order to be valuable. They ARE the system. Luka IS the system. The reason Luke Walton is not in LA now is because he didn't understand that. The reason Lonzo Ball and Ingram are thriving now is because they aren't being stiffled by a system designed to make less talented players more efficient. Kuzma don't look so good now. Draymond not so great when he isn't supported by talent. You think people in New Orleans are complaining that Zion clogs the middle or that he might get in Ingram's way? Maybe he won't work well with Favors because both are post scorers?
This isn't about comparing Bagley to any of those guys. It's to state that the team talent dictates the style of play. Trying to take away all that Marvin COULD bring and just saying he needs to hang out until someone throws him a lob is short sighted and a waste of offensive talent. Winning basketball starts with coaches putting players in winning positions. The offense Luke is trying to run is very prevalent in high school and helps even the playing field for teams that are guard heavy. It is effective in the NBA when your 2 or 3 best players are guards who are great shooter/scores. Not good. Great. But that still comes down to playing to your talent.
Dedmon was absolutely the right role player to fit around the talent. I'm not convinced Walton and Vlade are 100% on the same page.
What I hope for Bagley is what I hope for all Kings players. That he stays healthy/ recovers from injury and plays well. In the case of young players you want to see them develop their game to where the game slows down for them.
I like the quote of 49er great Bill Walsh, “Don’t tell what the player cannot do. Tell me what the player can do.”
IMO Bagley has the physical tools to succeed in the NBA. He will need playing time, experience and plenty of coaching.
to complain about him now is to complain about an unfinished product.
I like the quote of 49er great Bill Walsh, “Don’t tell what the player cannot do. Tell me what the player can do.”
IMO Bagley has the physical tools to succeed in the NBA. He will need playing time, experience and plenty of coaching.
to complain about him now is to complain about an unfinished product.
Everyone is disappointed that Bagley can't stay on the floor playing. His body may not be up to the grind of the NBA.
His career has come easily to him because of a lot of God given talent. He needs to mature and wake up and start working on his weaknesses. It is hard to see that part so far. Maybe all of this watching will get him motivated.
His career has come easily to him because of a lot of God given talent. He needs to mature and wake up and start working on his weaknesses. It is hard to see that part so far. Maybe all of this watching will get him motivated.