Athletic Article On the Kings Today
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I have another forum I belong to that i have tons of friends that have become real life friends, but besides Mike briefly in passing at a rally, and I guess @carmichaeldave briefly as well. I've never met a sole from here in person.
Actually, I take that back. I have met John Galt, we had seats next to each other for a while.
Actually, I take that back. I have met John Galt, we had seats next to each other for a while.
Legit question - if next year we gave Fox an extension, then benched him for CoJo, do you think he would be happy, even if the team was winning more?
Fact is that there is a difference between how good starters and good sixth men are viewed in the league. These guys are early on in their careers, are ambitious, and still have a lot left to prove. Keep in mind as well that it's not as if we are winning a lot of games and the coaches can point to that. I don't think Buddy is content with just being viewed as a scoring 6 man for the rest of his career, and I can't blame him for that. If you're concerned about this you should also be concerned about Kawhi and AD and a whole host of other players in this day and age who clearly have visions for their careers and are not just content with "getting paid" once.
Fact is that there is a difference between how good starters and good sixth men are viewed in the league. These guys are early on in their careers, are ambitious, and still have a lot left to prove. Keep in mind as well that it's not as if we are winning a lot of games and the coaches can point to that. I don't think Buddy is content with just being viewed as a scoring 6 man for the rest of his career, and I can't blame him for that. If you're concerned about this you should also be concerned about Kawhi and AD and a whole host of other players in this day and age who clearly have visions for their careers and are not just content with "getting paid" once.
AD/Kawhi shouldn’t even be in this discussion there too 5 players. Fox is worlds better than CJ benching him for that is not realistic, Buddy and Bogi are the same level in talent so it’s not disrespect to come off the bench. If you’re closing the game why would you care if you start that’s when everyone wants to play.
In theory yes, but that just isn't reality. You're changing the argument here - it's not a matter of who you're being benched for; it's about being a starter or not. Why is benching Fox not realistic in your scenario, if as you say he's still closing the game, getting minutes etc? Buddy's reported gripe (whether true or not) is about being a starter. It's not about being a starter over Bogdan Bogdanovic. Oh by the way, Walton started CoJo over Buddy the last game - so is that disrespect or not? In any case, I disagree with "same level in talent". When looking overall at last season and this one, Buddy has been at worst our second-best player, even with his lousy December/Jan.
This is a separate issue from being professional by the way. I fully expect Buddy to continue to cheer his team mates on, be a good locker room guy, play his heart out. I don't expect him to accept being a 6 man for the foreseeable rest of his prime on a team not making the playoffs, just because he got his first big payday. Players are human too and they all have their personal motivations. True or false; being a starter, playing big minutes and finishing the game sounds better than coming off the bench, playing big minutes and finishing the game?
This is a separate issue from being professional by the way. I fully expect Buddy to continue to cheer his team mates on, be a good locker room guy, play his heart out. I don't expect him to accept being a 6 man for the foreseeable rest of his prime on a team not making the playoffs, just because he got his first big payday. Players are human too and they all have their personal motivations. True or false; being a starter, playing big minutes and finishing the game sounds better than coming off the bench, playing big minutes and finishing the game?
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Unfortunately, going back to youth ball and HS, a majority of kids are wired to believe that being a starter makes them more important. Coming off the bench is an insult. Case in point with Buddy.
It takes a special type of player to realize that total minutes on the floor and playing in crunch time is more important than starting.
With regard to caring about putting up stats, Buddy does have incentives built into his contract. But he will equally be able to reach those whether he starts or not since he’ll play 30+ minutes per game no matter what. So, again, it shouldn’t matter.
But unfortunately with most these guys, it does.
It takes a special type of player to realize that total minutes on the floor and playing in crunch time is more important than starting.
With regard to caring about putting up stats, Buddy does have incentives built into his contract. But he will equally be able to reach those whether he starts or not since he’ll play 30+ minutes per game no matter what. So, again, it shouldn’t matter.
But unfortunately with most these guys, it does.
I listened to the interview and, to me, rather than suggesting Buddy is unhappy and wants out, it sounded more like Buddy may not identify as a bench player and he may one day request a trade. So it's speculative.
If Buddy did want out, he would have high value. Much more so than when he fetched NO Cousins. I like Buddy by if the worst happened we would be able to cope, possibly profit.
If Buddy did want out, he would have high value. Much more so than when he fetched NO Cousins. I like Buddy by if the worst happened we would be able to cope, possibly profit.
The best players start. They just do. Read down the HoF list and find me a bench player. And bringing up Ginobili as an example is as weak an argument as saying height doesn't matter because Muggsy Bogues played in the NBA. We all know height matters and we all know the best players start. If you think Lou Williams was hyped to be a bench player, read his quotes. He had to learn to accept it. He wasn't just ok with it.
If you're early in your career with high expectations, you're going to want to start. Starting doesn't matter is what coaches tell players who aren't good enough to start.
If you're early in your career with high expectations, you're going to want to start. Starting doesn't matter is what coaches tell players who aren't good enough to start.
Exactly, how anyone can support this dude for that is beyond me. You got paid so do what’s best for the team, you’re playing more ****ing minutes anyways if he was as good as he though he was they’d be no thinking about bringing him off the bench.
Lou didn’t demand a trade though, how selfish do you have to be to not see that you and the team got better when you became a 6th man. I’d gladly honor his request if he wanted to seems he has that Carmelo mindset of winning
Lou didn’t demand a trade though, how selfish do you have to be to not see that you and the team got better when you became a 6th man. I’d gladly honor his request if he wanted to seems he has that Carmelo mindset of winning
Exactly right.
There‘s also a dude named Jamal Crawford that discovered coming off the bench wasn’t a big deal too. And flourished. Often was the best scorer on the floor.
There’s actually been many players of Buddy’s level or better to accept coming off the bench. This list is actually quite long.
Elite HOF caliber players don’t typically come off the bench. That’s where the disconnect is. Buddy is not one of those players. He’s a good shooter and scorer. Not someone that has a legitimate gripe in believing that a 6th man role is beneath him.
I‘m a Buddy Hield fan, but that notion is a joke.
There‘s also a dude named Jamal Crawford that discovered coming off the bench wasn’t a big deal too. And flourished. Often was the best scorer on the floor.
There’s actually been many players of Buddy’s level or better to accept coming off the bench. This list is actually quite long.
Elite HOF caliber players don’t typically come off the bench. That’s where the disconnect is. Buddy is not one of those players. He’s a good shooter and scorer. Not someone that has a legitimate gripe in believing that a 6th man role is beneath him.
I‘m a Buddy Hield fan, but that notion is a joke.
Well to begin with, Crawford only became this well-known bench dude from his time in Atlanta, which was his 11th season. From year 4-10 he started in 80% of games played overall, and if you take out year 6 (under Larry Brown) and year 7 (he was injured, played only 59 games and started 36) that becomes 96%.
Jamal Crawford averaged 10 points his 3rd year and was never in the upper echelon in terms of salary. He was never an all-star and played on 8 different teams. He was a fantastic scorer, but I really doubt you'll find many young NBA players who are aspiring to have a career like Jamal Crawford's as the best case scenario.
Yes, Buddy believes that he can be a star and is trying to get there. He is in his 4th season as a pro, still on a rookie contract, and is one of the better players from his draft class. He has been the Kings best or second-best player over the course of this season and last; there's simply no debate around that. Is it so wrong that he still envisions himself as a starter?
Jamal Crawford averaged 10 points his 3rd year and was never in the upper echelon in terms of salary. He was never an all-star and played on 8 different teams. He was a fantastic scorer, but I really doubt you'll find many young NBA players who are aspiring to have a career like Jamal Crawford's as the best case scenario.
Yes, Buddy believes that he can be a star and is trying to get there. He is in his 4th season as a pro, still on a rookie contract, and is one of the better players from his draft class. He has been the Kings best or second-best player over the course of this season and last; there's simply no debate around that. Is it so wrong that he still envisions himself as a starter?
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It doesn't matter if he starts or not. This team is going no where with him as a key piece.
We've had a couple of nice mini runs this season but clearly with the roster the way it is were always going to be a largely inconsistent 30-35 win team at best.
When things supposedly all clicked into place last year we still didn't even hit .500.
We've had a couple of nice mini runs this season but clearly with the roster the way it is were always going to be a largely inconsistent 30-35 win team at best.
When things supposedly all clicked into place last year we still didn't even hit .500.
Not true. At all.
If Buddy’s a 6th man, theoretically you should have a really good team.
That’s the point. To have 5 players that are better in the starting lineup than Buddy. Just like when Bobby Jackson was the 6th man, but could and would have started for lesser teams.
I don‘t believe it’s been a coincidence that Buddy’s numbers spiked again after going to bench. Because he’s largely going against lesser, 2nd team players that aren’t as adept at taking his higher percentage looks away from him.
If Buddy’s a 6th man, theoretically you should have a really good team.
That’s the point. To have 5 players that are better in the starting lineup than Buddy. Just like when Bobby Jackson was the 6th man, but could and would have started for lesser teams.
I don‘t believe it’s been a coincidence that Buddy’s numbers spiked again after going to bench. Because he’s largely going against lesser, 2nd team players that aren’t as adept at taking his higher percentage looks away from him.
But we don't.
And to the second bolded point, you (not necessarily you specifically, but the general argument that has been made) can't make this argument that he's coming off the bench, playing 30+ minutes a game, and being on the floor to finish the game, but somehow doing all that while going against lesser 2nd team players.
The "Buddy is a 6th man" argument is a not a new one, and one that was soon thrown out last year as Buddy was our best player and a starter. He was doing fine. Shooters go through slumps and sometimes just need something to get them out of it. But in any case, to be clear, I'm not really trying to argue whether Buddy should or should not be a 6th man; I'm arguing that it is completely understandable to not want to be a bench player at this early point of his career.
And to the second bolded point, you (not necessarily you specifically, but the general argument that has been made) can't make this argument that he's coming off the bench, playing 30+ minutes a game, and being on the floor to finish the game, but somehow doing all that while going against lesser 2nd team players.
The "Buddy is a 6th man" argument is a not a new one, and one that was soon thrown out last year as Buddy was our best player and a starter. He was doing fine. Shooters go through slumps and sometimes just need something to get them out of it. But in any case, to be clear, I'm not really trying to argue whether Buddy should or should not be a 6th man; I'm arguing that it is completely understandable to not want to be a bench player at this early point of his career.
Buddy hasn't requested a trade.
The team all season has played better with Bogi on the court, starting or not. The team plays better when Barnes is shooting/scoring well. The team also plays better when they have a stable set of players for more than 3 or 4 games in a row, no matter who it is on the court. When Fox and Bagley were out early and the team was winning games, Buddy was a starter and he was killing it. The lineup was stable for an extended period of time. Sometimes the answer is just that simple.
The team all season has played better with Bogi on the court, starting or not. The team plays better when Barnes is shooting/scoring well. The team also plays better when they have a stable set of players for more than 3 or 4 games in a row, no matter who it is on the court. When Fox and Bagley were out early and the team was winning games, Buddy was a starter and he was killing it. The lineup was stable for an extended period of time. Sometimes the answer is just that simple.
Buddy makes stupid decisions in very important times which leads to losing games. So until he figures out how to not turn the ball over, shoot better looks, and play adequate team defense he needs to shut up and ball. Plain and simple. And Cojo is not on the same talent level as Fox, you are comparing apples and strawberries.
I think the main question is not if Hield is better off the bench or playing as a starter, but whether Hield is indeed so unhappy that he would demand a trade if he won't start.
I understand that this is a player's league, and some people are much more invested in their own stats/image/brand or whatever you call it. I don't like it, but I understand it. However, IMO, only superstars get away with it. We have no superstars yet, and the chance that Hield will become one is slim.
We have a team with a talent level where we need everyone to buy in and play hard for each other (see Toronto) in order to have success and play to their perceived level, let alone overachieve. If there are players here who believe that he is bigger than the team, we are better off trading him.
I don't know if Buddy is indeed at that point, BTW, but I believe that two of the three writers are very good and reputable.
I understand that this is a player's league, and some people are much more invested in their own stats/image/brand or whatever you call it. I don't like it, but I understand it. However, IMO, only superstars get away with it. We have no superstars yet, and the chance that Hield will become one is slim.
We have a team with a talent level where we need everyone to buy in and play hard for each other (see Toronto) in order to have success and play to their perceived level, let alone overachieve. If there are players here who believe that he is bigger than the team, we are better off trading him.
I don't know if Buddy is indeed at that point, BTW, but I believe that two of the three writers are very good and reputable.
It's not any one thing, it's just the sum total of everything -- from ownership all the way to the fans. It's a feedback loop of negativity. Most likely nobody on staff is reading this message board (though I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they are). We already know they are reading some broad synthesis of twitter comments though, because that fed into the season where we fired Malone and replaced him with George Karl. We also know they've crowd-sourced the draft at least once and are way more connected into fan feedback than any prior Kings front office. What fans do and say in the arena also matters. What fans call into radio stations and rant about matters. This message board is just the tip of the iceberg but if things spill over into pervasive negativity here, I feel like that reflects how a lot of other people are thinking. Ownership will make moves out of fear if enough fans threaten economic retaliation. Local media is heading in that direction.
And it's not exactly that reading the comments here bothers me. It does bother me but I don't read most of it (thank god) and for the most part I just try to explain how I feel and don't care too much if anyone agrees with me or not. I only bring it up because there's been so much overreaction to the Buddy comments and the Dedmon trade demand and almost anything the team does or doesn't do, frankly, that I feel like someone needs to wade in from time to time and say "wait a minute, are we really going to be upset about this?" Cause it's all rather trivial stuff. For my own sanity I've tuned it out and I think a lot of long-suffering Kings fans would be a lot happier if they learned to do the same. If we're going to be bombarded with a media blitz of player-smearing propaganda we don't actually have to lap it all up as fact. Maybe if they notice it's not working anymore they'll stop doing it? Is it my place to tell you how to fan? Of course not. I'm one very small voice in a vast... well, moderately large sea... and y'all are going to do what you want anyway. But it doesn't hurt to try.
I have had something of an epiphany recently though. I've been the conductor of the Fire Vlade train for years already and I may have been the first one on that particular train so why the sudden change of heart? Because I sat down and I read through every transaction Vlade has made on basketball-reference and I typed out from memory how each of those seasons has gone and what changes were made and why and out of that exercise I came to realize that this front office is working very very hard to get our team to the playoffs every year and I think that's a big part of the problem, actually. First we were a veteran team, then we were rebuilding with draft picks, then we were clearing out draft picks and signing veteran mentors, now we're approaching luxury tax status and salary dumping to keep our core together -- all within the span of a few years. This constant roster turnover is madness and it's unlikely to work. What we need is more stability, more forgiveness, more constructive criticism and positive change. The front office is constantly scapegoating people and shipping them out of town. I'm not going to go down the list of names but it's massive. As fans we've been at "5 minutes to Midnight" since Vivek took over almost. We've got to keep Cousins happy, we've got to win so we don't give Philly a #1 pick, we've got to justify spending all this money. It's always something new but the tone of desperation is consistent through all of it. Enough is enough. Panic is not a viable long-term strategy.
So I realize this may seem counter-intuitive, but what I've come to believe is that we need to release the pressure. Stop acting like the team owes us something. Stop whining about the 2018 draft. (yes, really) It sucks that we've missed the playoffs for 14 years but things happen. Grow up, get over it, enjoy some basketball. Vlade and his staff are doing the best they can. I don't think anyone knows how to do that job. It's always a mix of pseudo-science and gut instinct. It's something you have to learn on the job and luck plays a large role in it as well. I've been in environments before where every mistake is met with a witch hunt rather than reconciliation. The result of that is that nobody wants to risk trying anything and everybody instead is just going through the motions whether they agree with management or not. That's how organizations destroy themselves.
I've never agreed with the "blame the players, blame the coach, blame the GM, blame the owner" hierarchy. It's so pointless. Can the players play better? Yes, I think so. I hope so. Can the coach prepare them and motivate them better? I certainly think this coach should be doing a better job of both. I don't like Vlade's draft decisions but I'm okay with most of his free agent acquisitions and trades. Vivek has put his foot in his mouth more than once and has been guilty of overestimating his own basketball expertise, especially early on in his tenure. But you don't trade owners so that's moot. It's far too easy for us to pat each other on the back and say we, the fans, deserve better. Is it really all that awful though? We have a young team with hard-working kids who want to win. I think maybe we've just been grumpy for so long that we've forgotten how to be anything else. 14 years of dedication and patience doesn't give us free license to now be jerks. Absolutely change needs to happen but change for the sake of change has been this organization's MO for this entire period. That's not working. There's a more rational way to go about building a team and I think a very small part of that could be us fans backing off a bit and allowing growth to happen at it's own pace. And failing that, lowering expectations might actually make the losing easier to tolerate.
Does any of that make sense? That's where I'm coming from. I don't mean to be rude about it, I'm just wading against the current in a lot of these discussions so it's hard to get people to understand what I'm trying to say.
And it's not exactly that reading the comments here bothers me. It does bother me but I don't read most of it (thank god) and for the most part I just try to explain how I feel and don't care too much if anyone agrees with me or not. I only bring it up because there's been so much overreaction to the Buddy comments and the Dedmon trade demand and almost anything the team does or doesn't do, frankly, that I feel like someone needs to wade in from time to time and say "wait a minute, are we really going to be upset about this?" Cause it's all rather trivial stuff. For my own sanity I've tuned it out and I think a lot of long-suffering Kings fans would be a lot happier if they learned to do the same. If we're going to be bombarded with a media blitz of player-smearing propaganda we don't actually have to lap it all up as fact. Maybe if they notice it's not working anymore they'll stop doing it? Is it my place to tell you how to fan? Of course not. I'm one very small voice in a vast... well, moderately large sea... and y'all are going to do what you want anyway. But it doesn't hurt to try.
I have had something of an epiphany recently though. I've been the conductor of the Fire Vlade train for years already and I may have been the first one on that particular train so why the sudden change of heart? Because I sat down and I read through every transaction Vlade has made on basketball-reference and I typed out from memory how each of those seasons has gone and what changes were made and why and out of that exercise I came to realize that this front office is working very very hard to get our team to the playoffs every year and I think that's a big part of the problem, actually. First we were a veteran team, then we were rebuilding with draft picks, then we were clearing out draft picks and signing veteran mentors, now we're approaching luxury tax status and salary dumping to keep our core together -- all within the span of a few years. This constant roster turnover is madness and it's unlikely to work. What we need is more stability, more forgiveness, more constructive criticism and positive change. The front office is constantly scapegoating people and shipping them out of town. I'm not going to go down the list of names but it's massive. As fans we've been at "5 minutes to Midnight" since Vivek took over almost. We've got to keep Cousins happy, we've got to win so we don't give Philly a #1 pick, we've got to justify spending all this money. It's always something new but the tone of desperation is consistent through all of it. Enough is enough. Panic is not a viable long-term strategy.
So I realize this may seem counter-intuitive, but what I've come to believe is that we need to release the pressure. Stop acting like the team owes us something. Stop whining about the 2018 draft. (yes, really) It sucks that we've missed the playoffs for 14 years but things happen. Grow up, get over it, enjoy some basketball. Vlade and his staff are doing the best they can. I don't think anyone knows how to do that job. It's always a mix of pseudo-science and gut instinct. It's something you have to learn on the job and luck plays a large role in it as well. I've been in environments before where every mistake is met with a witch hunt rather than reconciliation. The result of that is that nobody wants to risk trying anything and everybody instead is just going through the motions whether they agree with management or not. That's how organizations destroy themselves.
I've never agreed with the "blame the players, blame the coach, blame the GM, blame the owner" hierarchy. It's so pointless. Can the players play better? Yes, I think so. I hope so. Can the coach prepare them and motivate them better? I certainly think this coach should be doing a better job of both. I don't like Vlade's draft decisions but I'm okay with most of his free agent acquisitions and trades. Vivek has put his foot in his mouth more than once and has been guilty of overestimating his own basketball expertise, especially early on in his tenure. But you don't trade owners so that's moot. It's far too easy for us to pat each other on the back and say we, the fans, deserve better. Is it really all that awful though? We have a young team with hard-working kids who want to win. I think maybe we've just been grumpy for so long that we've forgotten how to be anything else. 14 years of dedication and patience doesn't give us free license to now be jerks. Absolutely change needs to happen but change for the sake of change has been this organization's MO for this entire period. That's not working. There's a more rational way to go about building a team and I think a very small part of that could be us fans backing off a bit and allowing growth to happen at it's own pace. And failing that, lowering expectations might actually make the losing easier to tolerate.
Does any of that make sense? That's where I'm coming from. I don't mean to be rude about it, I'm just wading against the current in a lot of these discussions so it's hard to get people to understand what I'm trying to say.
Bogie isnt a PG.
It's not a sound argument any way you cut it. Bogi originally was the starting 2 guard, he just got hurt and Buddy played so well there was no reason to make the change. Buddy got himself benched due to his play. If Fox got himself benched because of his play then the argument has merit. Otherwise you're just grasping at straws on this.
It's not a sound argument any way you cut it. Bogi originally was the starting 2 guard, he just got hurt and Buddy played so well there was no reason to make the change. Buddy got himself benched due to his play. If Fox got himself benched because of his play then the argument has merit. Otherwise you're just grasping at straws on this.