That's fair. I'm willing to give Bagley at least two more years. One thing I see often these days is players take more time to develop out of college since most are drafted at age 19. There are mental and physical developments that do keep happening. I saw a flash of brilliance, consistently, over the last 25 games last year. This year Bagley has essentially been written off to injury. I'm frankly baffled at how quickly people are writing him off after being essentially injured all year. It's like they don't even remember how fantastic he was last year. He may not work out. But calling that now at this point doesn't make you right about it now if it turns out to be true later just by coincidence. What I see is a great young player that needs time to settle in after an injury.
Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)
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I have defended Vlade, mostly because many of his criticisms are based on hindsight biases. That said, I do think it is time for a change if the Kings continue to suck this year. My reasons follow:
Cons:
1. Luka vs. Bags. He should’ve picked Luka, because of the value that Luka has already provided on his rookie contract. Those years and the second contract (to a lesser extent) are critical, because the player is cost controlled. Bags simply hasn’t and won’t provide similar value during his first two contracts. And for the record, I’m still high on Bags—I do think he needs to work on his physicality to accelerate his development.
2. Vlade has shown that he’s all about winning now—not later. I hate arguments from loud minorities, who say he’s stupid or that their is a language or cultural issue, which prevents him from executing a Hinkie tank job. Cantenelka and him are fully capable of doing so, they choose not to (see: vet signings, see trading away picks). He’s trying to recreate the 2001 mix of adding vets and hoping for lightening. I don’t necessarily fault him for it, but it hasn’t work. N he has to bear that accountability.
3. Shifting identities. From Joeger’s grind to Joeger’s pace to Walton NBA 3.0.
4. Drafting, Acquiring, n Signing players who operate best as black holes—Barnes, Buddy, Bags, n Bogi.
Pros:
1. Walton. Dude can coach. Needs time.
2. Fox. Needs consistency n health, but given time, he’s a stud.
3. Stabilizing the culture.
4. Firing Brandon Williams.
5. Winning Boogie n Bogi trades.
6. Managing the salary cap with short commitments.
Cons:
1. Luka vs. Bags. He should’ve picked Luka, because of the value that Luka has already provided on his rookie contract. Those years and the second contract (to a lesser extent) are critical, because the player is cost controlled. Bags simply hasn’t and won’t provide similar value during his first two contracts. And for the record, I’m still high on Bags—I do think he needs to work on his physicality to accelerate his development.
2. Vlade has shown that he’s all about winning now—not later. I hate arguments from loud minorities, who say he’s stupid or that their is a language or cultural issue, which prevents him from executing a Hinkie tank job. Cantenelka and him are fully capable of doing so, they choose not to (see: vet signings, see trading away picks). He’s trying to recreate the 2001 mix of adding vets and hoping for lightening. I don’t necessarily fault him for it, but it hasn’t work. N he has to bear that accountability.
3. Shifting identities. From Joeger’s grind to Joeger’s pace to Walton NBA 3.0.
4. Drafting, Acquiring, n Signing players who operate best as black holes—Barnes, Buddy, Bags, n Bogi.
Pros:
1. Walton. Dude can coach. Needs time.
2. Fox. Needs consistency n health, but given time, he’s a stud.
3. Stabilizing the culture.
4. Firing Brandon Williams.
5. Winning Boogie n Bogi trades.
6. Managing the salary cap with short commitments.
Can Walton coach though? Dude has been square pegging a round hole all year and has this team 10 games under .500. We were 18-16 at this time last year which would have us 3 games up in the 8th seed and in the playoffs.
Instead they've thrown away what would have been the easiest year to make the playoffs since I can remember and are working on half court sets to go deep into the playoffs when they can't even make the damn playoffs in the first place.
I'll call him a good coach when he plays to our players strengths. If that's not good enough to make the playoffs, then it's the GM's fault.
Instead they've thrown away what would have been the easiest year to make the playoffs since I can remember and are working on half court sets to go deep into the playoffs when they can't even make the damn playoffs in the first place.
I'll call him a good coach when he plays to our players strengths. If that's not good enough to make the playoffs, then it's the GM's fault.
They aren't perfect fits for sure but they aren't sloths by any stretch and as spread role players they do. Also, Walton plays a lot of big lineups even when evidence would suggest that the team is much better in his desired style on both ends when playing small at PF with Ariza and Barnes together. Dedmon as a trail 3 point shooting big and a spot up spread big in the half court would be all he was cracked up to be. However, his erratic role from being mostly a pick and roll roller, to a high post ball handler, to a post up big, to finally for small stretches a spread 5 has completely blown up his confidence and now he's a trade fodder candidate. This is also what happens when you go out and sign too much depth at positions that aren't very interchangeable. Also the Kings aren't really trying to play a fast paced system. They say they want to shoot 3's then they go about it the hardest way you can in the half court. Walton has already said he's working on half court ball because it will pay off better in the long term or something like that. Somebody should let him know times a ticking and we've heard this many times before from individuals who once sat in his same seat. With the team, even more than being a fast paced team, they need to be a 4-5 out spread team. That will allow Fox to drive and dish, Bogdan and Buddy to come off of screens in the most advantageous way possible in a true triple threat position, Bagley and Barnes to work in the post, and Holmes to cotinue to decimate opponents in mid range face up scenarios.
Walton can certainly coach x's and o's. Easily the best the team has had since Adelman. The issue is the last thing you bring up, will he play to the players strengths even if it might be against whatever vision he has about what "good" basketball is? He played to the players strengths early when Fox and Bagley were out, but it's starting to look like that might have just been because those players happened to fit his vision of being a slug it out defensive force and teams hadn't figured a way to attack them yet. Teams are starting to play smaller against the Kings and gobble up those corner 3's the Kings give them. This period Walton is in is the true measure of a good coach. It's on him to make this work. This team can't be satisfied with mediocrity and right now they are in a stretch of losing to teams at home they have no business to even if things aren't working seamlessly on the floor.
I had this massive post about my thoughts on Vlade and his moves the last few years and then realized that it was kind of moot. Yes, Vlade has made some good, some alright, and some horrible decisions. But we have a better roster than last year and are way behind where we were last year. The biggest problem is that every level of the organization has been subpar, but the most pressing issues in my eyes are coaching and player development.
I understand the frustration with the offseason signings, but if I recall correctly, everyone loved the offseason signings because they rounded out the team perfectly right? Dedmon was the stretch 5 to space the floor for Fox and Bagley! Joseph (after trying for Beverley) and Ariza were the lockdown defenders to bolster the defense! Barnes was our only chance at filling a hole at SF, which we desperately needed filled in order to compete for a playoff spot! Holmes is awesome, so need for justification there.
What's the issue? Dedmon, Buddy, Joseph, and Barnes are shooting well below their career averages from 3 (only considering Dedmon's last two seasons when he became a 3 pt shooter). I dont think this just happens, you don't just forget how to shoot. I think it is coaching and continuity more than anything.
Why Joerger was fired after our best season in ten years is beyond me. Our roster was built to try to make the playoffs...yet we have a brand new coach and system to learn in the process. That was always gonna be a tall task. Plus you have the Fox and Bagley injuries. And shooting isn't the only issue. This team has TERRIBLE intangibles. The Kings are probably the lowest basketball IQ team in the league. They set terrible screens. No one boxes out. Quarters of offensive brilliance are followed by quarters of pure isolation basketball. One play the defense will rotate and help and cause a bad shot or turnover and the next one or more defenders will be caught ball watching or flat footed and give up an easy layup. One game we give up a 25 point lead to the struggling spurs, then we beat the Rockets, Mavs, and Thunder, only to lose to the Knicks at home in the next game. There is absolutely no consistency. That isn't Vlade's fault. And we would be a playoff team at the moment if these issues were addressed.
Neither is the fact that all the young players are not showing any progress in development. The team has given up on Giles way too early, Fox and Bagley have been injured and this team is going nowhere if they don't become stars. Every young player not named Fox on this team has regressed. Bagley looks lost on both ends of the floor despite moments of brilliance offensively, Bogi is a black hole offensively and misses wide open players, Buddy is a blacker hole offensively and has less understanding of defense than I do.
There's a lot of issues, including Vlade, but coaching and player development are the biggest ones.
I understand the frustration with the offseason signings, but if I recall correctly, everyone loved the offseason signings because they rounded out the team perfectly right? Dedmon was the stretch 5 to space the floor for Fox and Bagley! Joseph (after trying for Beverley) and Ariza were the lockdown defenders to bolster the defense! Barnes was our only chance at filling a hole at SF, which we desperately needed filled in order to compete for a playoff spot! Holmes is awesome, so need for justification there.
What's the issue? Dedmon, Buddy, Joseph, and Barnes are shooting well below their career averages from 3 (only considering Dedmon's last two seasons when he became a 3 pt shooter). I dont think this just happens, you don't just forget how to shoot. I think it is coaching and continuity more than anything.
Why Joerger was fired after our best season in ten years is beyond me. Our roster was built to try to make the playoffs...yet we have a brand new coach and system to learn in the process. That was always gonna be a tall task. Plus you have the Fox and Bagley injuries. And shooting isn't the only issue. This team has TERRIBLE intangibles. The Kings are probably the lowest basketball IQ team in the league. They set terrible screens. No one boxes out. Quarters of offensive brilliance are followed by quarters of pure isolation basketball. One play the defense will rotate and help and cause a bad shot or turnover and the next one or more defenders will be caught ball watching or flat footed and give up an easy layup. One game we give up a 25 point lead to the struggling spurs, then we beat the Rockets, Mavs, and Thunder, only to lose to the Knicks at home in the next game. There is absolutely no consistency. That isn't Vlade's fault. And we would be a playoff team at the moment if these issues were addressed.
Neither is the fact that all the young players are not showing any progress in development. The team has given up on Giles way too early, Fox and Bagley have been injured and this team is going nowhere if they don't become stars. Every young player not named Fox on this team has regressed. Bagley looks lost on both ends of the floor despite moments of brilliance offensively, Bogi is a black hole offensively and misses wide open players, Buddy is a blacker hole offensively and has less understanding of defense than I do.
There's a lot of issues, including Vlade, but coaching and player development are the biggest ones.
Olajuwon was absolutely consensus number one. Jordan actually went third. Bowie was universally consensus number two. No one ever makes the claim that they would have picked Jordan over Bowie. Jordan couldn't shoot at all in college, barely could his first three seasons. Jordan's great gift was his work ethic. He WAS the third best player at that time. He made himself the best of all time.
Trying to write of Bagley after a really great final 25 games last year in which every single one of you agreed with Grant AND DOUG that he was our future star, even above Fox, and now toss him aside after being injured almost all year... is all just a really pathetic coping mechanism in the face of Doncic's sucess. Bagley will be great. But many of you want him to be great on another team. That's not going to happen. This time next year you'll be eating crow.
Trying to write of Bagley after a really great final 25 games last year in which every single one of you agreed with Grant AND DOUG that he was our future star, even above Fox, and now toss him aside after being injured almost all year... is all just a really pathetic coping mechanism in the face of Doncic's sucess. Bagley will be great. But many of you want him to be great on another team. That's not going to happen. This time next year you'll be eating crow.
That legit made me laugh out loud!
You know whats more likely than bagley being great? Bagley's dad/agent forcing the kings to trade him. In his dads eyes his son is being wasted on this s-show of a franchise. Actually he may be right.
Like Carmichael Dave said this morning on his show, he can bet that it's not just dedmon who wants a trade. Major major props for carmichael dave and his extra long segment this morning on what is going on with the kings. He hit on everyone, from the front office to our soft players. They contributed to Joeger's firing. If this ineptitude continues they are gonna get another coach and maybe the GM fired too.
You know whats more likely than bagley being great? Bagley's dad/agent forcing the kings to trade him. In his dads eyes his son is being wasted on this s-show of a franchise. Actually he may be right.
Like Carmichael Dave said this morning on his show, he can bet that it's not just dedmon who wants a trade. Major major props for carmichael dave and his extra long segment this morning on what is going on with the kings. He hit on everyone, from the front office to our soft players. They contributed to Joeger's firing. If this ineptitude continues they are gonna get another coach and maybe the GM fired too.
The problem is that this team needs floor spacing to operate and I would say at this point, 5 out of the 9 regular rotation players don't even require defenders to stay honest when defending them on the perimeter: Joseph, Holmes, Fox, Bagley, and Barnes.
But you're right, Walton has brought this team down to operating at a snail's pace. We're dead last in pace, that is not at all what this team was built for. There's a disconnect between what Vlade is putting out there and how Walton is utilizing the team Vlade is putting out there.
But you're right, Walton has brought this team down to operating at a snail's pace. We're dead last in pace, that is not at all what this team was built for. There's a disconnect between what Vlade is putting out there and how Walton is utilizing the team Vlade is putting out there.
That's just a ridiculous claim especially the part about being even better than Fox. Hardly anybody here has said that Bagley could or will be Better than Fox. Blob may have been one of the only ones to say that.
Granted last year people were more positive about Bagley than they are now but expectations were still metered and most hoped he could become an all star and #2 to pair with Fox.
Bagley will never be a #1 star player in today's NBA because he doesn't create for others. You combine that with the fact that he's pathetic defensively and will never be a star on that side of the ball......what you are left with is best case a super scoring and rebounding big man. Useful yes but not who you build the team around........that would be Fox.
Granted last year people were more positive about Bagley than they are now but expectations were still metered and most hoped he could become an all star and #2 to pair with Fox.
Bagley will never be a #1 star player in today's NBA because he doesn't create for others. You combine that with the fact that he's pathetic defensively and will never be a star on that side of the ball......what you are left with is best case a super scoring and rebounding big man. Useful yes but not who you build the team around........that would be Fox.
If "lose their minds" is code for laughing, then yes.
I would like to refer to grant comments last week. If bagley sticks around his jersey will be up in the rafters. He will be a great player. A definite all star.
Its all amusing because I've seen nothing from bagley that contributes to this truckload of praise being heaped on him.
I would like to refer to grant comments last week. If bagley sticks around his jersey will be up in the rafters. He will be a great player. A definite all star.
Its all amusing because I've seen nothing from bagley that contributes to this truckload of praise being heaped on him.
i agree with most of ur post but 1 point. the way u say it may lead to people to think that the reason that bowie was "universally consensus" was because he was better than MJ.... and thats wrong, MJ was the best palyer in College and he can drop points like no other. teh reason he was consensus is because everyone knew Portlan will go for Bowie, because they already had a star SG in draxler and they didnt needed another SG.....
basically we did the same in 2018 draft, we pass on doncic because we wanted the ball in fox's hand instead of Doncic's.
basically we did the same in 2018 draft, we pass on doncic because we wanted the ball in fox's hand instead of Doncic's.
Again. Jordan wasn't the Bulls GMs first choice. This is well documented. Rod Thorn basically apologized for having to draft Jordan. Thorn wanted a center. The Rockets, Blazers and Bulls all wanted to build around a center, because that was the model. Jordan broke the model through hard work and sheer will.
Generational talent is someone who changes the nature of the game and there is absolutely no way to predict that. Hindsight is 20/20 and everyone likes to claim they knew something all along. But it's almost never true. Jordan was exciting and a definite scorer, but Rod Thorn literally said he's not going to be the guy to turn their franchise around.
Generational talent is someone who changes the nature of the game and there is absolutely no way to predict that. Hindsight is 20/20 and everyone likes to claim they knew something all along. But it's almost never true. Jordan was exciting and a definite scorer, but Rod Thorn literally said he's not going to be the guy to turn their franchise around.
The model was flat out wrong. Teams just didn’t know it. We have the data now that shows wings and guards have consistently been the most impactful dating back over 30 years. The best players in the 80’s were Jordan, Bird, Magic, Drexler and Barkley with Barkley being an extreme outlier.
Good ole Vlade still thinks that old model is true.
Good ole Vlade still thinks that old model is true.
Sorry i was out during holidays.
Look I think we not getting this right why we talking about the bulls? Our comparison team should be Portland cuz both passed on a generational player. it’s about drafting the right guy.
And again u didn’t understand the context in draft night u compare the drafts prospect, in this case u should compare Bowie vs MJ and it’s well documented that all the teams I’m NBA thought MJ was a better player than Bowie, The only reason Portland passed on MJ was because they thought they already got the generational SG in Draxler and they still doubted for long time that maybe draxler and MJ could’ve played together.
About the Bulls. Thorn said that the only player that he would’ve picked over MJ in that draft was Olajuwon. So he would’ve picked MJ over Bowie because MJ was better than Bowie for ALL THE NBA TEAMS in that draft. but at draft night just like u said thorn wanted to shop MJ for a cornerstone center(that was currently playing at high level in NBA) and he failed, so he apologised for not being able to get a dominant center in exchange of MJ, Not because he didnt draft a center in that draft. Why would the bull apologise for getting the best player available in 3rd pick?
The conclusion is Bowie ended 2nd and MJ 3rd strickly because Portland drafted based on team fit instead of talent.
Look I think we not getting this right why we talking about the bulls? Our comparison team should be Portland cuz both passed on a generational player. it’s about drafting the right guy.
And again u didn’t understand the context in draft night u compare the drafts prospect, in this case u should compare Bowie vs MJ and it’s well documented that all the teams I’m NBA thought MJ was a better player than Bowie, The only reason Portland passed on MJ was because they thought they already got the generational SG in Draxler and they still doubted for long time that maybe draxler and MJ could’ve played together.
About the Bulls. Thorn said that the only player that he would’ve picked over MJ in that draft was Olajuwon. So he would’ve picked MJ over Bowie because MJ was better than Bowie for ALL THE NBA TEAMS in that draft. but at draft night just like u said thorn wanted to shop MJ for a cornerstone center(that was currently playing at high level in NBA) and he failed, so he apologised for not being able to get a dominant center in exchange of MJ, Not because he didnt draft a center in that draft. Why would the bull apologise for getting the best player available in 3rd pick?
The conclusion is Bowie ended 2nd and MJ 3rd strickly because Portland drafted based on team fit instead of talent.
Houston is in this mix because THEY should have picked Jordan. IF Houston and Portland knew what Jordan would become, they would have chose him. The Bulls weren't even doing backflips after getting Jordan.
IF every team knows Doncic is going to be a savior, PHX, Sac and ATL would not have passed and about 24 other organizations would have thrown everything they had to trade up.
This misunderstanding is that people look back with 20/20 hindsight and act like everyone just knew how a draft pick was going to turn out, but just chose to ignore it. No one ever knows how a pick will turn out. But they all act like it.
IF every team knows Doncic is going to be a savior, PHX, Sac and ATL would not have passed and about 24 other organizations would have thrown everything they had to trade up.
This misunderstanding is that people look back with 20/20 hindsight and act like everyone just knew how a draft pick was going to turn out, but just chose to ignore it. No one ever knows how a pick will turn out. But they all act like it.
True, the thing is not trying to be a guru and predict the future, we didnt ask Vlade to foresee what luka is doing. What I’m trying to say is teams should’ve done the logic think,
Houston should’ve picked Olajuwon over MJ because it was the right thing to do... who complained about rockets decision? None did, because they make the right choise, Portland should’ve picked MJ because at that time MJ was a better player than Bowie and with 2nd overall pick u just follow the logic and chose the best player, what’s the point of teams tanking the entire season? Just to draft with 2nd pick for a better fit player?
We should’ve picked the better player at the moment who was Doncic regardless having Fox, If they don’t fit together u just throw away the bad one and keep with the good one. Just like Dallas throws DSJ drafted in 2017.
I’m just a commoner so my opinions doesn’t matter but if I were a GM. And I have a lottery pick 14th or better I will always draft talent over fit.
Houston should’ve picked Olajuwon over MJ because it was the right thing to do... who complained about rockets decision? None did, because they make the right choise, Portland should’ve picked MJ because at that time MJ was a better player than Bowie and with 2nd overall pick u just follow the logic and chose the best player, what’s the point of teams tanking the entire season? Just to draft with 2nd pick for a better fit player?
We should’ve picked the better player at the moment who was Doncic regardless having Fox, If they don’t fit together u just throw away the bad one and keep with the good one. Just like Dallas throws DSJ drafted in 2017.
I’m just a commoner so my opinions doesn’t matter but if I were a GM. And I have a lottery pick 14th or better I will always draft talent over fit.
That was also Philly’s strategy, they got Simmons and then drafted another PG in Fultz, they got Embiid the again also drafted Okafor another center, both Fultz and Okafor busted, but they were the right choices back at that time.
So u got me wrong, I didn’t say that Doncic is better than MB3 because of Lukas performances, if tomorrow luka never makes more than 10 points again and MB3 stats dropping triple doubles. Luka should’ve still gone to 2nd pick because he was a better player
So u got me wrong, I didn’t say that Doncic is better than MB3 because of Lukas performances, if tomorrow luka never makes more than 10 points again and MB3 stats dropping triple doubles. Luka should’ve still gone to 2nd pick because he was a better player
So you're saying if a player drafted at the #2 pans out better in the long run than someone who looked better at first but then faded away, it's still a bad pick because he wasn't better on draft day? Do you realize how little sense that makes? (I'm taking your statement in general terms, not using the specific examples of Bagley and Doncic.
Draft picks are crap shoots. Greg Oden is a perfect example. Do you think Portland would still pick him knowing then what they know now?
Draft picks are crap shoots. Greg Oden is a perfect example. Do you think Portland would still pick him knowing then what they know now?