Does Bagley remind you of Siakam?

[KainLear]

Watching Raptors in the Playoffs, I'm starting to see the resemblance of Bagley as Siakam. Both got a pretty lethal inside game, if Bagley gets better with his right hand and works on a more reliable outside shot/3-pointers, with Bagley's slightly taller frame and his athleticism, he could also have a similar impact on defense as Siakam.

Here are both players' highlight reels this season to remind everybody on them, what do you think?

 

[kingsboi]

not at all. I think Bagley has star potential, where as Siakam is a borderline All-Star player.

 

[SacTownKid]

Bagley has more potential with the ball in his hands and is quicker off the floor but both are largely finesse/athlete bigs so they are similar. That and Siakam is like 5 years older which with bigs means a ton. Siakam could certainly see his numbers improve but he's already knocking on the door of his physical prime. Bagley barely exited his teen years. Rebounding and all in all physicality probably goes to Bagley too.

 

[jcassio]

Siakam is an old man. He and Bagley aren't even in the same generation. No comparison!
Seriously, though, Siakam is impressive. But different than Bagley, other than both being uber athletic.

 

[Chupacabra]

I don't think Siakam is near the player that Bagley is. Thats not a knock on Siakam, either.

 

[The_Jamal]

I don't think Siakam is near the player that Bagley is. Thats not a knock on Siakam, either.

You're right, he's significantly better than Bagley right now.

Siakam is quickly developing into Draymond 2.0 on defense. He's an absolute terror and can (and has) spent defending all 5 positions on the floor. The big difference is he's got real chops as an offensive player and a threat to score from pretty much anywhere on the floor. Toronto was one of the best teams in the NBA because of his development this season.

Bagley probably has the higher ceiling as a scorer and certainly is better on the glass than Siakam, but has a long, long, long way to go before matching his defensive impact. The good news is Siakam is a real nice blueprint for Bagley to follow to show him how to be a serious impact defender. Same body type, both extremely good atheltes.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

You're right, he's significantly better than Bagley right now.

Significantly. SMH. C'mon now. Not even you believe that.

I mean, on what possibly basis could that be true?

Was Pascal better defensively this season? Yes. Did he play on a better team this season. Yes.

But as an all-around player?

Bagley started 75 less games and averaged 6.6 fewer minutes per game. Yet, he averaged more rebounds, more blocks and only 2 fewer points per game. And accomplished that despite being just short of 5 years younger with 2 seasons less experience.

Siakam did produce higher FG%'s both on 2's and 3's ... but, again, is also 5 years older and has 2 more seasons under his belt. He also didn't draw the same attention as MB3 once Marvin hit his stride and defenses began to focus more on him. Siakam also has the benefit of playing alongside arguably the best 2 way player in the NBA -- a player that's undoubtedly in the top 3.

If you had said that Siakam was a marginally better player this season that still would have been debatable (while probably true). But 'significantly' is hyperbole and a flat lie and you know it.

 

[Chupacabra]

You're right, he's significantly better than Bagley right now.

Siakam is quickly developing into Draymond 2.0 on defense. He's an absolute terror and can (and has) spent defending all 5 positions on the floor. The big difference is he's got real chops as an offensive player and a threat to score from pretty much anywhere on the floor. Toronto was one of the best teams in the NBA because of his development this season.

Bagley probably has the higher ceiling as a scorer and certainly is better on the glass than Siakam, but has a long, long, long way to go before matching his defensive impact. The good news is Siakam is a real nice blueprint for Bagley to follow to show him how to be a serious impact defender. Same body type, both extremely good atheltes.

I was making the point that I know Bagley to be much better at basketball than Siakam. Don't get me wrong, Siakam is a really good, unique player. He is helped tremendously by playing for a really good team and alongside one of the best players in the world currently. Whereas Bagley is in the mold of a player that can't be stopped. They're in different tiers; Bagley being in the higher tier, of course. In terms of role and importance, I like the Green comparison for Siakam, although I generally dislike player comparisons. Be that as it may, when we talking about Bagley we're talking about an Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett type of player. Bagley > Siakam.

I was so amazed by the way Bagley was able to impose his will during the season that I started watching for how the defense was behaving around him and how they were reacting once Bagley had his way; it was as though they were not prepared to brace for impact every time Bagley got the ball. Thats the kind of thing that requires special defensive schemes to try to curtail. No defense will ever be helpless when trying to stop Pascal Siakam.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I was making the point that I know Bagley to be much better at basketball than Siakam. Don't get me wrong, Siakam is a really good, unique player. He is helped tremendously by playing for a really good team and alongside one of the best players in the world currently. Whereas Bagley is in the mold of a player that can't be stopped. They're in different tiers; Bagley being in the higher tier, of course. In terms of role and importance, I like the Green comparison for Siakam, although I generally dislike player comparisons. Be that as it may, when we talking about Bagley we're talking about an Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett type of player. Bagley > Siakam.

You get it.

 

[jcassio]

You're right, he's significantly better than Bagley right now.

Siakam is quickly developing into Draymond 2.0 on defense. He's an absolute terror and can (and has) spent defending all 5 positions on the floor. The big difference is he's got real chops as an offensive player and a threat to score from pretty much anywhere on the floor. Toronto was one of the best teams in the NBA because of his development this season.

Bagley probably has the higher ceiling as a scorer and certainly is better on the glass than Siakam, but has a long, long, long way to go before matching his defensive impact. The good news is Siakam is a real nice blueprint for Bagley to follow to show him how to be a serious impact defender. Same body type, both extremely good atheltes.

Good assessment. Except for concluding that Siakam is significantly better than Bagley. Siakam may be two years ahead of Bagley right now, but Bags is barely 20. Siakam is 25. I'm not convinced that Bagley has the higher ceiling, however. And I think Bagley has a very high ceiling! Siakam will be an all star next year. He could become an MVP candidate with the way he is progressing on both offense and defense. Bagley's story has not been written yet. Clearly he has great potential. In a head to head rebound contest, I think Bagley gets 3 out of 5 rebounds. But I don't think Bagley can stop Siakam from scoring. Can Siakam stop Bagley from scoring? I think so. At least sometimes.
Same body type you say? Well, somewhat. They're both athletic and slender. I think Siakam is slightly faster. Bagley has the quicker jump. Bagley is 2" taller, but Siakam has 2" more on his wingspan.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how these two players develop and what their actual ceilings turn out to be.

 

[The_Jamal]

Good assessment. Except for concluding that Siakam is significantly better than Bagley. Siakam may be two years ahead of Bagley right now, but Bags is barely 20. Siakam is 25. I'm not convinced that Bagley has the higher ceiling, however. And I think Bagley has a very high ceiling! Siakam will be an all star next year. He could become an MVP candidate with the way he is progressing on both offense and defense. Bagley's story has not been written yet. Clearly he has great potential. In a head to head rebound contest, I think Bagley gets 3 out of 5 rebounds. But I don't think Bagley can stop Siakam from scoring. Can Siakam stop Bagley from scoring? I think so. At least sometimes.
Same body type you say? Well, somewhat. They're both athletic and slender. I think Siakam is slightly faster. Bagley has the quicker jump. Bagley is 2" taller, but Siakam has 2" more on his wingspan.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how these two players develop and what their actual ceilings turn out to be.

Completely agree. I dont think it's the likeliest outcome, but there's a non-zero chance that Siakam can be a top 5-10 player in the league at some point. His skill-set is so tailor-made perfect as a new-age big and he's a legitimate difference maker on the defensive end that can defend all 5 positions. It'll depend on how well his offense can keep progressing and if he can somewhat maintain this efficiency when he takes a 25-26% USG rate for him to take that leap. I don't think it could be argued he was a top 30 guy this past season.

 

[The_Jamal]

Significantly. SMH. C'mon now. Not even you believe that.

I mean, on what possibly basis could that be true?

Was Pascal better defensively this season? Yes. Did he play on a better team this season. Yes.

But as an all-around player?

Bagley started 75 less games and averaged 6.6 fewer minutes per game. Yet, he averaged more rebounds, more blocks and only 2 fewer points per game. And accomplished that despite being just short of 5 years younger with 2 seasons less experience.

Siakam did produce higher FG%'s both on 2's and 3's ... but, again, is also 5 years older and has 2 more seasons under his belt. He also didn't draw the same attention as MB3 once Marvin hit his stride and defenses began to focus more on him. Siakam also has the benefit of playing alongside arguably the best 2 way player in the NBA -- a player that's undoubtedly in the top 3.

If you had said that Siakam was a marginally better player this season that still would have been debatable (while probably true). But 'significantly' is hyperbole and a flat lie and you know it.

I mean, i could go through a whole bevy of statistics that show the tremendous impact of Siakam because basically all of them agree he's an absolute star that impacts the game on both ends of the floor. All your qualifiers don't matter for what I said: Pascal is significantly better than Bagley right now. That can't be debated. There isn't a single relevant statistic that'll show Bagley was anywhere close to Pascal in terms of impact this season. Other than your own bias because Bagley is a King, how is close to Pascal in terms of impact?

Long-term though, who knows. Bagley showed his tremendous offensive tool-kit and put together a really impressive scoring rookie campaign: 56% TS, .371 FTr, 10.4% TOV, 24% USG is excellent and really tough to do as 19 year old big man. But he's got to add some playmaking chops to take that next leap to being a lead option and a long way on defense as well. Siakam is a pretty good model for him on defense to how he can use his athleticim and quickness to be an all-world defender.

 

[King Baller]

I don't see them as similar except for being tall and similar build. Bagley will be bigger at 25 though. Also it is not fair to compare them, it is like apples and oranges. Actually more like comparing a ripe orange to one still green on the tree.

Pascal spent two years playing college ball and is in his 3rd year playing in the NBA. Pascal also plays with 1 HOF level player, 2 former all stars and a couple of highly experienced playoff team starters. He is playing great on a high level playoff team

Bagley is 5 years younger, played 1 year of college ball and just finished his rookie year in the NBA playing for a team that is still developing.

Compare Pascal now to Bagley in 5 years, or even 3 years and I would not hesitate to say Bagley would be chosen over Pascal by most GM's in a draft type situation.

 

[ESP47]

What's funny is I was actually comparing Siakam and Skal during their rookie seasons. They were once fairly similar players and Skal was looking like he was going to turn out to be the better of the two. He was a lot more polished offensively than Siakam.

Then year 2 hit and Skal got worse and Siakam got significantly better. Went from averaging .7 assists to 3.4 assists per36 in just one season. That's staggering and to me shows how much he improved and improved in a hurry. Passing is like the 10th most important part of his game but it shows a lot in how much his game was growing in a hurry.

Fast forward to now and Skal is completely out of the picture and we're now comparing him to Bagley. Marvin is more than likely going to be a good bit better offensively and rebounding wise than Siakam but Siakam will more than likely be a much better defender. I agree with Jamal that Siakam is a much better player than Bagley is right now but in the end it's going to come down to defense for Bagley. His defensive advanced numbers are really bad. Siakam was worlds ahead of him during his rookie season but he was also 3 years older for his rookie stint as well.

Will be interesting to see going forward.

 

[Kingster]

Siakam is a poor man's Bagley. Bagley actually outplayed him when they played against each other head-to-head, despite the fact that Siakam is five years older. If you like Siakam, which I do, you're really going to like Bagley.

 

[Kings_of_California]

If Bagley topped out wherever Siakam tops out, I actually wouldn't be that upset with it. Siakam is LEGIT and he's a good defender already which Bagley is not. Bagley has a lot more potential, but if he doesn't reach that potential, a Siakam ceiling is solid.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I agree with Jamal that Siakam is a much better player than Bagley is right now

I ask again, based upon what metrics? What evidence can you possibly provide to support Siakam being "a much better player"?
You can't. It's a hyperbolic statement.

Marginally better? Probably, based upon defense, shooting percentages, and overall experience. But much better?? There's nowhere close to a preponderance of evidence to indicate that's true. Bagley's already doing some things as well or better despite averaging nearly 7 minutes fewer per game.

FWIW, for those that buy into PER:

Bagley: 18.93
Siakam: 18.74

That's nowhere close to the end all, be all .... but it helps to show that "much better" and "significantly better" are ridiculous notions.

 

[ESP47]

Bagley:

VORP: 0.1
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: -0.7 (very poor for a big man. Giles is at 0.9 which is still not great for a big man but much better than Bagley)
RPM rank: 479th

Siakam:

VORP: 3.5 (best King is WCS at 2.3)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: 1.4 (best King is WCS at 2.2. Siakam was 2.2 last year)
RPM rank: 21st


Siakam was just a much more effective player as far as helping his team win games goes. It's really not even close right now. Again, this is just talking about this last year and has nothing to do with Bagley going forward.

 

[CelticsFan]

Siakam is the 2nd option on a team that had the 2nd most regular wins in the NBA, Siakam is a player that other teams game plan for. Bagley played mostly against second units, teams weren’t game planning against him. I think Bagley has the higher ceiling and is younger but feel Siakam had the better season.

 

[Joshoua]

Good assessment. Except for concluding that Siakam is significantly better than Bagley. Siakam may be two years ahead of Bagley right now, but Bags is barely 20. Siakam is 25. I'm not convinced that Bagley has the higher ceiling, however. And I think Bagley has a very high ceiling! Siakam will be an all star next year. He could become an MVP candidate with the way he is progressing on both offense and defense. Bagley's story has not been written yet. Clearly he has great potential. In a head to head rebound contest, I think Bagley gets 3 out of 5 rebounds. But I don't think Bagley can stop Siakam from scoring. Can Siakam stop Bagley from scoring? I think so. At least sometimes.
Same body type you say? Well, somewhat. They're both athletic and slender. I think Siakam is slightly faster. Bagley has the quicker jump. Bagley is 2" taller, but Siakam has 2" more on his wingspan.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how these two players develop and what their actual ceilings turn out to be.

Also Siakam might be 25 but I belive he started playing at 16–17 he’s not done growing as a player.

 

[The_Jamal]

What's funny is I was actually comparing Siakam and Skal during their rookie seasons. They were once fairly similar players and Skal was looking like he was going to turn out to be the better of the two. He was a lot more polished offensively than Siakam.

Then year 2 hit and Skal got worse and Siakam got significantly better. Went from averaging .7 assists to 3.4 assists per36 in just one season. That's staggering and to me shows how much he improved and improved in a hurry. Passing is like the 10th most important part of his game but it shows a lot in how much his game was growing in a hurry.

Fast forward to now and Skal is completely out of the picture and we're now comparing him to Bagley. Marvin is more than likely going to be a good bit better offensively and rebounding wise than Siakam but Siakam will more than likely be a much better defender. I agree with Jamal that Siakam is a much better player than Bagley is right now but in the end it's going to come down to defense for Bagley. His defensive advanced numbers are really bad. Siakam was worlds ahead of him during his rookie season but he was also 3 years older for his rookie stint as well.

Will be interesting to see going forward.

If Kawhi ends up leaving, it's going to be so interesting to see how Pascal responds to the increased workload. He's already a star imo, but for him to take that next leap, we got to see how he responds to a heavy USG rate and being more of the focus of the defense.

 

[The_Jamal]

Bagley:

VORP: 0.1
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: -0.7 (very poor for a big man. Giles is at 0.9 which is still not great for a big man but much better than Bagley)
RPM rank: 479th

Siakam:

VORP: 3.5 (best King is WCS at 2.3)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: 1.4 (best King is WCS at 2.2. Siakam was 2.2 last year)
RPM rank: 21st


Siakam was just a much more effective player as far as helping his team win games goes. It's really not even close right now. Again, this is just talking about this last year and has nothing to do with Bagley going forward.

Doesn't end here either. On/Off statistics are insane for Pascal:

On Court:
Off rating: 116.8
Def rating: 105.8

Off Court:

Off rating: 108.3
Def rating: 111.3

+13.9 net rating in 2530 minutes for Pascal this season.

-Hyper efficient with a 62.8% TS on 20% USG. Only 12% TOV rate
-Improved himself getting to the line with a .320 FTr. Not elite, but above average.
-Spaces the floor with a consistent enough 3-ball. 36.9% on 214 attempts.

He's the significantly better player right now. Not a debate. Like we've been saying though, that can change in the next few years.

 

[The_Jamal]

Speaking of increased workload, he's doing absolute work in the playoffs right now. Small sample of course but:

7 games:
23.3 PPG
8.0 RPG
2.7 APG
39.5% 3pt on 4 attempts,
59.5% TS
25.8% USG
6.8% TOV

.213 WS/48
5.0 BPM
0.5 VORP

His On/Off is hilarious right now too:

On court:
Off rating: 114.1
Def rating: 98.3

Off Court:
Off rating: 96.5
Def rating 96.0

+15.3 net rating with 262 minutes on the floor and 74 minutes off.

Absolute beast.

 

[KainLear]

I was simply pointing out that there are similarities. I think Bagley will eventually be the better player of the two as well. I guess I didn't make it clear in my original post.

As somewhat of an unmolded clay, I think Bagley can be pushed into different directions as a player. He could be a heavy hitting offensive juggernaut like Shawn Kemp, a well-rounded technician in offense like Blake Griffin, or an agile big man with good ball handling like C-Webb or KG, (or even the old school traditional inside big man who dominates the half court game, I mean Ayton was still drafted first overall just 2018) I just meant that I wouldn't mind seeing Bagley going into this direction of an athlete physical big man who plays both ends. He can match Siakam's type of production for the Raptors, and Bagley will arguably be immediately better than Siakam at offense, if he develops a reliable outside shot.

I just meant Siakam could be one of the blueprints for Bagley to develop.

 

[Livinthedream]

Siakim got much better once Leonard stepped on the floor for Toronto. All the stats are fine and everything, but the conversation starts Leonard. Siakim is good, but we're all smart enough basketball fans to know the impact a superstar has on a team and its players.

 

[bajaden]

Siakim is an interesting player, and I would love to have him on the Kings. But does anyone believe that Siakim has superstar potential? I don't! I think he's being played to his strengths, which happen to compliment those of his teammates perfectly. Put Siakim on the Suns and how good will he be? Would he be able to have the same success when he's the center of attention of the other teams defense.

To me, that's the difference. I think Bagley can play on any team in any offense anywhere and still succeed. It took 4 years of professional ball for Siakim to reach the level he's at right now, and that level has already been reached to some degree by Bagley in his first year. And Bagley has been the center of attention of the other teams defense. He regularly gets doubled, and has a hard time sneaking in for a backdoor. Siakim doesn't get that same attention.

None of this is a knock on Siakim. I think what he's accomplished has been remarkable and more power to him. But to my mind, Siakim is a role player that performs that role like a star. He knows what he can do, and what he can't do, and sticks to what he can do. And what he can do, is pretty dam good.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I was simply pointing out that there are similarities. I think Bagley will eventually be the better player of the two as well. I guess I didn't make it clear in my original post.

As somewhat of an unmolded clay, I think Bagley can be pushed into different directions as a player. He could be a heavy hitting offensive juggernaut like Shawn Kemp, a well-rounded technician in offense like Blake Griffin, or an agile big man with good ball handling like C-Webb or KG, (or even the old school traditional inside big man who dominates the half court game, I mean Ayton was still drafted first overall just 2018) I just meant that I wouldn't mind seeing Bagley going into this direction of an athlete physical big man who plays both ends. He can match Siakam's type of production for the Raptors, and Bagley will arguably be immediately better than Siakam at offense, if he develops a reliable outside shot.

I just meant Siakam could be one of the blueprints for Bagley to develop.

Your original post was clear enough. Some folks just like to argue

 

[Warhawk]

Your original post was clear enough. Some folks just like to argue

You mean here at KingsFans? Really? Hadn't noticed.

 

[KainLear]

Your original post was clear enough. Some folks just like to argue

Ha! I enjoy the debate too. I think Bagley can be overall much better than Siakam. His ceiling seems to be higher, and just already how efficient he is on the offensive end in his rookie season. Although next year will be the real test, now that everyone in the league has experienced and prepared for the pacey Kings and sophomore season of Bagley.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Bagley:

VORP: 0.1
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: -0.7 (very poor for a big man. Giles is at 0.9 which is still not great for a big man but much better than Bagley)
RPM rank: 479th

Siakam:

VORP: 3.5 (best King is WCS at 2.3)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: 1.4 (best King is WCS at 2.2. Siakam was 2.2 last year)
RPM rank: 21st


Siakam was just a much more effective player as far as helping his team win games goes. It's really not even close right now. Again, this is just talking about this last year and has nothing to do with Bagley going forward.

None of these stats prove your hyperbolic statement. We can cherry pick stats that favor one side or the other all day. But nothing you’ll post will show Siakam to be clearly a ‘much better player’. As an all-around player, he was marginally better at best.

From the get go you and Jamal overstated and just don’t want to admit it. No problem, I’ll drop it and move on.