Willie is below average in my book. Yep, not even average. Occasionally showing flash, but if you average it out, he's terrible. You can do pick n roll against him and your man will be free wide open straight for a dunk. His team help defense is also bad due to lack of awareness. If his teammate got beat by his man, don't expect Willie to protect them. He's still wondering what the hell just happened lol. Transition defense is also bad...his movement, angle and speed is like that of jogging while everyone is running.
Is Cauley-Stein a Good Defender?
- Thread starter twslam07
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I highly doubt they are putting the player they drafted some 8 months ago as a long term project on the market. The front office in Orlando originates from the Bucks where they are clearly following the identical pattern of drafting talent as they did with the Bucks....i.e. draft players with length. In Orlando they have done this two drafts in a row by drafting Isaac and Bamba in back to back drafts.
In terms of how they afford it, its a matter of timing their contract and deals in a right manner. One thing the Kings have done exceptionally well in the last couple of years is manage the cap really well thanks to Ken Catanella.
We still have a big number coming off the books in the off-season which would around the mark it would take to bring Vucevic in. This of course means waving goodbye to WCS, not bringing Burks back. Barnes comes off the books after next season if he picks up his player option. His annual salary will come down no doubt. Bogdan and Buddy will warrant a significant pay increases (bigger increase with Buddy) before Fox's extension kicks in at which point Vicevic is close to an expiing deal.
I think the cap situation is very healthy with the Kings who will have enoug cap room to bring in a quality FA before extending the core.
I highly doubt they are putting the player they drafted some 8 months ago as a long term project on the market. The front office in Orlando originates from the Bucks where they are clearly following the identical pattern of drafting talent as they did with the Bucks....i.e. draft players with length. In Orlando they have done this two drafts in a row by drafting Isaac and Bamba in back to back drafts.
In terms of how they afford it, its a matter of timing their contract and deals in a right manner. One thing the Kings have done exceptionally well in the last couple of years is manage the cap really well thanks to Ken Catanella.
We still have a big number coming off the books in the off-season which would around the mark it would take to bring Vucevic in. This of course means waving goodbye to WCS, not bringing Burks back. Barnes comes off the books after next season if he picks up his player option. His annual salary will come down no doubt. Bogdan and Buddy will warrant a significant pay increases (bigger increase with Buddy) before Fox's extension kicks in at which point Vicevic is close to an expiing deal.
I think the cap situation is very healthy with the Kings who will have enoug cap room to bring in a quality FA before extending the core.
I kinda hope Willie goes elsewhere, just so we can see who the next scapegoat will be.
Willie is not the best center in the world, but he is FAR from being as bad as many would like to make him out to be.He is well suited for the style we run. Just because another center might block a few more shots or grab a few more rebounds, does not account for what they wont be able to do that Willie can and does. The few games he has missed, it was very noticeable.
I mostly stay out of the "bash" Willie threads because, thankfully, no one on this board is the GM. You don't have to love what Willie brings, but all his detractors pretending he is easily replaceable in our system and plain garbage are fooling themselves for the sake of playing armchair GM.
Willie is not the best center in the world, but he is FAR from being as bad as many would like to make him out to be.He is well suited for the style we run. Just because another center might block a few more shots or grab a few more rebounds, does not account for what they wont be able to do that Willie can and does. The few games he has missed, it was very noticeable.
I mostly stay out of the "bash" Willie threads because, thankfully, no one on this board is the GM. You don't have to love what Willie brings, but all his detractors pretending he is easily replaceable in our system and plain garbage are fooling themselves for the sake of playing armchair GM.
While another center might not account for the specifics Willie can do, hopefully they can account for what Willie doesn’t do (defend the rim/rebound)
This goes to how one views the game, and I realize that interior defense can be a more subjective concept. But we are a bad interior defending/rebounding team, per stats, and for those who note it, it’s nails to the chalk board to see the layups and “not getting the rebound on one” as I yell to the tv
I think a tough paint presence will more than mitigate WCS running the floor and rim running IMO. I think it would catapult us greatly
This goes to how one views the game, and I realize that interior defense can be a more subjective concept. But we are a bad interior defending/rebounding team, per stats, and for those who note it, it’s nails to the chalk board to see the layups and “not getting the rebound on one” as I yell to the tv
I think a tough paint presence will more than mitigate WCS running the floor and rim running IMO. I think it would catapult us greatly
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-in-trades-mavericks-attempted-to-land-rookie
Those guys are very reliable sources. Bamba has been a big disappointment considering how high they drafted him. He was always a big project, but there were so many other players who would've been better picks. Doesn't help that their best player on the team is a C who was also an all-star this year.
There's rumors that Dallas is serious about going after Vucevic in FA. While you brought up 2 of our Serbs, Dallas themselves have a half serb in Doncic and a Latvian in Porzingis. It'll be hard to compete against Dallas. I think we have a more attractive team, but Doncic-Porzingis are 10x better than Bogdan-Bjelica who at this point, are more like role players than stars.
Those guys are very reliable sources. Bamba has been a big disappointment considering how high they drafted him. He was always a big project, but there were so many other players who would've been better picks. Doesn't help that their best player on the team is a C who was also an all-star this year.
There's rumors that Dallas is serious about going after Vucevic in FA. While you brought up 2 of our Serbs, Dallas themselves have a half serb in Doncic and a Latvian in Porzingis. It'll be hard to compete against Dallas. I think we have a more attractive team, but Doncic-Porzingis are 10x better than Bogdan-Bjelica who at this point, are more like role players than stars.
Windhorst had it, you can google that. He’s usually reputable, but maybe I should have said it’s been reported.
Fox/Buddy/Bogdan/Bagley/Barnes/Vucevic would all be making 8 figures at some point if Vuc is maxed. Seems a tough fit economically but we’ll see. He will garner some attention for sure, as an all star.
Fox/Buddy/Bogdan/Bagley/Barnes/Vucevic would all be making 8 figures at some point if Vuc is maxed. Seems a tough fit economically but we’ll see. He will garner some attention for sure, as an all star.
Except Vucevic is friends with Bogdan and Bjelica, they speak the same language etc..then there is the Vlade and Peja factor.
I am not saying Vucevic will sign with the Kings but we are not as out of the running as some people seem to think. FWIW, I think Orlando would be the favorites to get his signature because he likes the place there but if he is seriously considering moving teams, then I am very confident that the Kings will be a serious contender for his signature. No guarantees but I don't think we are out of the running.
I am not saying Vucevic will sign with the Kings but we are not as out of the running as some people seem to think. FWIW, I think Orlando would be the favorites to get his signature because he likes the place there but if he is seriously considering moving teams, then I am very confident that the Kings will be a serious contender for his signature. No guarantees but I don't think we are out of the running.
Theoretically, it shouldn't skew the stat as it is supposed to control for level of competition. However, I think it is skewed for another reason. When players play less minutes, they tend to be able to exert themselves in a way that isn't sustainable over long periods of time.
I tend to agree. His lack of size gives me a pause as a C.
I have similar concerns with him as a I do with Davis...size. He was 206 lbs coming out of college. Willie was 242 lbs (although he was older).
A 3pt shooting Kosta is nothing to scoff at. That's a pretty darn useful player.
Lopez is my top option out of those guys as well. He has:
- Size (6'11.25" w/o shoes & 9'5" standing reach)
- Length (7'5.5" wingspan)
- Strength (260 lbs)
- Rim Protection (2.7 BLK per 36 min & Opponents FG% at the Rim was 53.4%)
- Floor Spacinng (37% 3PT%)
- FT% (82%)
He would easily allow Bagley to play PF due to his shooting and Bagley can obviously help with the rebounding.
The one thing that is extremely interesting about Lopez when it comes to rebounding is the team rebounding. The last 7 seasons, Lopez's team has a higher DRB% & TRB% when he is on the court vs. off the court. How does a C achieve that when he averages the following amount of rebounds per36 for the past 7 seasons...
- 5.0 DRB / 5.5 TRB
- 4.6 DRB / 6.1 TRB
- 4.6 DRB / 6.5 TRB
- 5.4 DRB / 8.4 TRB
- 5.5 DRB / 9.2 TRB
- 4.3 DRB / 6.9 TRB
- 4.9 DRB / 8.2 TRB
...he boxes out. He has a .986 % Def Box Outs (2nd among Cs who have played more than 15 games this year). Last year, he was at .934 (4th among Cs who have played more than 15 games).
Compare this to Cauley-Stein who's team has only had a higher DRB% once in his 4 seasons when he is on the court vs. off the court (last year).
I still haven't made my mind up on Vucevic yet, but the point I'd make is that we really shouldn't be investing that type of money in a C. Our best lineup/death lineup (in the future) likely will have Bagley at C. Why would we pay a C big bucks when they are off the floor to finish games?
Signing Lopez for $6-8 mil a year for 2-3 years would be an under the radar move that would likely pay dividends. This is really only if Cauley-Stein is not willing to take a smaller deal like that or gets offered a big deal by another team.
It's not so much about upgrading from Cauley-Stein as it is recognizing the value of the C position vs. the perimeter and recognizing that our best lineup in the future will likely have Bagley playing C.
I tend to agree. His lack of size gives me a pause as a C.
I have similar concerns with him as a I do with Davis...size. He was 206 lbs coming out of college. Willie was 242 lbs (although he was older).
A 3pt shooting Kosta is nothing to scoff at. That's a pretty darn useful player.
Lopez is my top option out of those guys as well. He has:
- Size (6'11.25" w/o shoes & 9'5" standing reach)
- Length (7'5.5" wingspan)
- Strength (260 lbs)
- Rim Protection (2.7 BLK per 36 min & Opponents FG% at the Rim was 53.4%)
- Floor Spacinng (37% 3PT%)
- FT% (82%)
He would easily allow Bagley to play PF due to his shooting and Bagley can obviously help with the rebounding.
The one thing that is extremely interesting about Lopez when it comes to rebounding is the team rebounding. The last 7 seasons, Lopez's team has a higher DRB% & TRB% when he is on the court vs. off the court. How does a C achieve that when he averages the following amount of rebounds per36 for the past 7 seasons...
- 5.0 DRB / 5.5 TRB
- 4.6 DRB / 6.1 TRB
- 4.6 DRB / 6.5 TRB
- 5.4 DRB / 8.4 TRB
- 5.5 DRB / 9.2 TRB
- 4.3 DRB / 6.9 TRB
- 4.9 DRB / 8.2 TRB
...he boxes out. He has a .986 % Def Box Outs (2nd among Cs who have played more than 15 games this year). Last year, he was at .934 (4th among Cs who have played more than 15 games).
Compare this to Cauley-Stein who's team has only had a higher DRB% once in his 4 seasons when he is on the court vs. off the court (last year).
I still haven't made my mind up on Vucevic yet, but the point I'd make is that we really shouldn't be investing that type of money in a C. Our best lineup/death lineup (in the future) likely will have Bagley at C. Why would we pay a C big bucks when they are off the floor to finish games?
Signing Lopez for $6-8 mil a year for 2-3 years would be an under the radar move that would likely pay dividends. This is really only if Cauley-Stein is not willing to take a smaller deal like that or gets offered a big deal by another team.
It's not so much about upgrading from Cauley-Stein as it is recognizing the value of the C position vs. the perimeter and recognizing that our best lineup in the future will likely have Bagley playing C.
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To answer the question, I'd take WCS if the contracts are equal. If there is a 3rd possible option available to me, I would walk away from both.
But that's not how things work in real life. What if it's Noel for $5 mil a year and WCS for $12 mil a year?
I don't think we should be giving Cauley-Stein a big contract. If we can sign him for a reasonable price (looking at the contracts given to Randle, Harrell, & Bjelica) then keep him. If he wants more, we should look elsewhere. We shouldn't be giving a big payday to someone who isn't an ideal fit, isn't a great player, isn't a guy that says the right things (which makes me question what drives him as a player), isn't a guy who's known for putting in effort, isn't a guy who (likely) will be finishing games for us in the future considering Bagley seems like the type of player that would slide up to C in the 4th.
But that's not how things work in real life. What if it's Noel for $5 mil a year and WCS for $12 mil a year?
I don't think we should be giving Cauley-Stein a big contract. If we can sign him for a reasonable price (looking at the contracts given to Randle, Harrell, & Bjelica) then keep him. If he wants more, we should look elsewhere. We shouldn't be giving a big payday to someone who isn't an ideal fit, isn't a great player, isn't a guy that says the right things (which makes me question what drives him as a player), isn't a guy who's known for putting in effort, isn't a guy who (likely) will be finishing games for us in the future considering Bagley seems like the type of player that would slide up to C in the 4th.
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This is more or less the point.
I don't know yet if Bagley is a guy that can start at C (as you suggest), but I can easily see him as a guy who can close out games for us at C. If that's the case, why would we pay someone a pretty penny just to sit the bench at the end of the game? I'd rather invest in our death lineup than our regular season, starting lineup.
And the reason I would suggest Bagley at PF and a cheap C starting alongside him is to take some of the pounding off of him. He can probably fight through it for a solid 8-12 minutes a game but if he's exclusively playing 30 minutes a night against 250-275 lbs grown men, we may see diminishing returns from him later in games or as the season progresses.
I don't know yet if Bagley is a guy that can start at C (as you suggest), but I can easily see him as a guy who can close out games for us at C. If that's the case, why would we pay someone a pretty penny just to sit the bench at the end of the game? I'd rather invest in our death lineup than our regular season, starting lineup.
And the reason I would suggest Bagley at PF and a cheap C starting alongside him is to take some of the pounding off of him. He can probably fight through it for a solid 8-12 minutes a game but if he's exclusively playing 30 minutes a night against 250-275 lbs grown men, we may see diminishing returns from him later in games or as the season progresses.
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It might be surprising to some since I don't hate on Willie, but good defense is more enjoyable to me than watching teams jacking up 3's. Ben Wallace,KG,Ron Artest etc. are some of my favorite players.
With regards to the layup drills it has been pointed out by several others that just because the points were scored in the paint does not = Willie failed to defend said paint. How many of those layups are from bigs? How many are because our guards or SF let their man get by and either scores or causes someone else (Willie for example) to have to rotate? When they rotate does someone cover the big they were covering? It's not so simple as some would like to make it seem and Willie takes the fall every time. Maybe the problem is scheme based. Maybe the guards and forwards need to do a better job at containing. Maybe the other bigs need to recognize the situations quicker when a guard or SF gets beat and cover for when Willie or whoever has to switch. Maybe it's a lot of these and more? I think so.
I don't want to spend on Willie anymore than the market dictates he is worth. Vucevic would be great here and I would be happy with the signing. However everywhere one can consume information about the Kings it's the same divided opinions regarding replacing Willie. Opinions wouldn't be so divided across numerous Kings related outlets if it was simply a matter of "one side doesn't value interior defense and one does".
With regards to the layup drills it has been pointed out by several others that just because the points were scored in the paint does not = Willie failed to defend said paint. How many of those layups are from bigs? How many are because our guards or SF let their man get by and either scores or causes someone else (Willie for example) to have to rotate? When they rotate does someone cover the big they were covering? It's not so simple as some would like to make it seem and Willie takes the fall every time. Maybe the problem is scheme based. Maybe the guards and forwards need to do a better job at containing. Maybe the other bigs need to recognize the situations quicker when a guard or SF gets beat and cover for when Willie or whoever has to switch. Maybe it's a lot of these and more? I think so.
I don't want to spend on Willie anymore than the market dictates he is worth. Vucevic would be great here and I would be happy with the signing. However everywhere one can consume information about the Kings it's the same divided opinions regarding replacing Willie. Opinions wouldn't be so divided across numerous Kings related outlets if it was simply a matter of "one side doesn't value interior defense and one does".
I mentioned earlier in another post that I'm still undecided on Vucevic.
On one hand, he would make us better right now. I don't doubt that. He's very skilled offensively and can stretch the floor. He's underrated defensively and is a very good rebounder. His floor spacing makes for a good fit next to Bagley.
The reason I pause on him right now is a much more long term question and when thinking through to the endgame. When I think of our current core pieces, I try to think of which position is (or will be) their best position if we needed to close a game out for the last 7 minutes.
I'm having trouble seeing Giles as a "death lineup" piece when considering our other core pieces. His lack of size at C and his lack of shooting at PF lay that to rest for me.
So really we have 1 PG, 2 SGs, 1 SF/PF, & 1 C.
I think we can get by with a Fox / Hield / Bogdan / Barnes / Bagley death/closing lineup. That is still very good. However, if we wanted to optimize the potential of our core pieces, I'm locking Fox in at PG, Hield at SG, Barnes at SF or PF, and Bagley at C. That means I would look for another SF/PF to complete this death lineup of the future. This is why I brought up Porter Jr. (still holding out hope
) in another thread.
A Fox / Hield / Barnes / Porter / Bagley death lineup would be very impressive and tough to beat as it grows together.
Now I understand that's a lot of words and you're probably dozing off by now, but the reason I wrote all of that was to circle back and say, why would we pay Vucevic $20+ mil a year knowing he would have to play the position that would be Bagley's most effective position in late game situations? If we're trying to optimize our lineup and have this core take us as far as they can, I see Bagley sliding up to C and having that money spent on a SF/PF.
I'm willing to listen and be convinced otherwise in regards to Vucevic, but that's where my head is at right now. Do we take one step forward by signing Vucevic (admitting we would be better by signing him) only to limit the remaining amount of steps we can take after that move?
On one hand, he would make us better right now. I don't doubt that. He's very skilled offensively and can stretch the floor. He's underrated defensively and is a very good rebounder. His floor spacing makes for a good fit next to Bagley.
The reason I pause on him right now is a much more long term question and when thinking through to the endgame. When I think of our current core pieces, I try to think of which position is (or will be) their best position if we needed to close a game out for the last 7 minutes.
- Fox: no question it's PG
- Hield: no question it's SG. His length limits his potential to guard SFs regularly
- Bogdan: I lean SG here but I would still consider him effective in a SF role considering he has excellent length for a SG
- Barnes: I think he can easily be a SF or PF without there being much difference. I lean towards SF because his length isn't great but he's deceptively very strong.
- Giles: I don't think he'll ever have the size, rim protection, rebounding ability to play C so I have to say PF here. However, his shooting very much would hurt a "death lineup"
- Bagley: easily picking C here. He's already a good sized rookie. He doesn't have great length for C, but his aggresiveness, energy, and hops make up for it. He operates best around the rim and on the offensive glass. He can clear the boards on defense and provide some interior defense as well. His shot may never be very consistent which is why I said "easily picking C here". If he was a knockdown shooter (e.g., Bjelica, Barnes, Bogdan, etc. level), I think you're probably looking at either PF or C without much of a difference.
I'm having trouble seeing Giles as a "death lineup" piece when considering our other core pieces. His lack of size at C and his lack of shooting at PF lay that to rest for me.
So really we have 1 PG, 2 SGs, 1 SF/PF, & 1 C.
I think we can get by with a Fox / Hield / Bogdan / Barnes / Bagley death/closing lineup. That is still very good. However, if we wanted to optimize the potential of our core pieces, I'm locking Fox in at PG, Hield at SG, Barnes at SF or PF, and Bagley at C. That means I would look for another SF/PF to complete this death lineup of the future. This is why I brought up Porter Jr. (still holding out hope
) in another thread. A Fox / Hield / Barnes / Porter / Bagley death lineup would be very impressive and tough to beat as it grows together.
Now I understand that's a lot of words and you're probably dozing off by now, but the reason I wrote all of that was to circle back and say, why would we pay Vucevic $20+ mil a year knowing he would have to play the position that would be Bagley's most effective position in late game situations? If we're trying to optimize our lineup and have this core take us as far as they can, I see Bagley sliding up to C and having that money spent on a SF/PF.
I'm willing to listen and be convinced otherwise in regards to Vucevic, but that's where my head is at right now. Do we take one step forward by signing Vucevic (admitting we would be better by signing him) only to limit the remaining amount of steps we can take after that move?
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Bajaden, I respect how long you've been here and your contributions to the board. I really do. I think you have a good eye for talent and enjoy reading your take, but sometimes you tend to put words in my mouth and make assumptions on my position. Give me the opportunity to explain my position rather than misrepresent my ideas and attack statements that were never even made by myself.
I never said those stats tell the whole story. I posted a plethora of defensive stats. Some favor Cauley-Stein and some don't (the majority don't). I posed the question "is Cauley-Stein a good defender" and left it at that.
It's something to be considered when looking at the stats. That's for sure, but when you're ranked 73rd among Cs for contested 2PT shots per 36 min, 62nd among Cs for contested 3PT shots per 36 min, 79th among Cs for opponent % at rim when defended, you can't use that excuse. He simply performs poorly in those particular stats.
I don't think Thon Maker would do a better job against AD. I never said that. Again, please don't misrepresent my ideas.
No it shouldn't. I opened up a thread to discuss his defense. Why do I need to discuss his offense? If you would like to discuss his entire game, feel free to create your own thread.
I don't think Alex Len is a better player than Willie. I never said that. Again, please don't misrepresent my ideas.
Again, the thread was created to discuss his defense.
Again, the thread was created to discuss his defense.
I agree. There is a lot that goes into playing C. Thankfully, I didn't post this thread and only list his blocks per game. Thankfully, I pulled together a lot more metrics to reference.
All in all, this reply is not even on topic in regards to what I replied to you about. You said "Most of those stats are reflective of a post defender." They weren't. I replied and said so. That's really it at the end of the day.
I never said those stats tell the whole story. I posted a plethora of defensive stats. Some favor Cauley-Stein and some don't (the majority don't). I posed the question "is Cauley-Stein a good defender" and left it at that.
It's something to be considered when looking at the stats. That's for sure, but when you're ranked 73rd among Cs for contested 2PT shots per 36 min, 62nd among Cs for contested 3PT shots per 36 min, 79th among Cs for opponent % at rim when defended, you can't use that excuse. He simply performs poorly in those particular stats.
I don't think Thon Maker would do a better job against AD. I never said that. Again, please don't misrepresent my ideas.
No it shouldn't. I opened up a thread to discuss his defense. Why do I need to discuss his offense? If you would like to discuss his entire game, feel free to create your own thread.
I don't think Alex Len is a better player than Willie. I never said that. Again, please don't misrepresent my ideas.
Again, the thread was created to discuss his defense.
Again, the thread was created to discuss his defense.
I agree. There is a lot that goes into playing C. Thankfully, I didn't post this thread and only list his blocks per game. Thankfully, I pulled together a lot more metrics to reference.
All in all, this reply is not even on topic in regards to what I replied to you about. You said "Most of those stats are reflective of a post defender." They weren't. I replied and said so. That's really it at the end of the day.
Legit question though - are we perpetually going to blame our defense on our guards? Isn't Fox supposed to be a good defender?
Perhaps more constructively - the question is what do we need out of our center from a defensive POV? I think this is the right question because offense isn't the priority when we have Fox, Hield, Barnes, Bagley etc. Looking at the team's weakness, I'm inclined to say rim protection and rebounding are more crucial than the ability to switch into guards.
Perhaps more constructively - the question is what do we need out of our center from a defensive POV? I think this is the right question because offense isn't the priority when we have Fox, Hield, Barnes, Bagley etc. Looking at the team's weakness, I'm inclined to say rim protection and rebounding are more crucial than the ability to switch into guards.
The point that keeps going over your head is that he's not wrong. So it's clearly not as 'simple as that'. Baja has elaborated, again, why your advanced statistical data is misleading and not at all comprehensive or absolute. Several others have chimed in to essentially say the same thing. Your problem is that you have convinced yourself that advanced statistical data that doesn't factor certain context is the end-all-be-all truth. This is far from the first time you've employed the same tactic and now you've been called on it. Only seems fair, right?
I believe you are missing the point, and similar to Baja, you're misrepresenting my stance.
In my reply to Baja, I was not saying that he is wrong by dismissing or challenging any of the stats in my original post. In fact, stats should be scrutinized and dissected while keeping things in context. With that in mind, you can see why this comment from you is quite silly & misleading of my stance:
What I called Baja on was claiming that most of the stats in my original post were "reflective of a post defender." That is inherently incorrect and I called it out. For some reason, you're trying to take that statement and extrapolate it to a stance that YOU want me to have.
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you're fighting with yourself right now.
In my reply to Baja, I was not saying that he is wrong by dismissing or challenging any of the stats in my original post. In fact, stats should be scrutinized and dissected while keeping things in context. With that in mind, you can see why this comment from you is quite silly & misleading of my stance:
What I called Baja on was claiming that most of the stats in my original post were "reflective of a post defender." That is inherently incorrect and I called it out. For some reason, you're trying to take that statement and extrapolate it to a stance that YOU want me to have.
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you're fighting with yourself right now.
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Well it has also been called the anchor of the defense.
This line of argument is constantly baffles me. Clearly it's a team game. NOTHING is ever the sole fault of one player or position. Does that mean that we never criticize individuals? Or does every criticism have to be prefaced with a paragraph stating how despite the criticisms to follow said player does bring other things to the table? It's a forum and ideas are going to be repeated multiple times by multiple posters - I kind of assume that any argument or point being made should be taken in context of the historical bias of the poster, previous points made etc.
Again to my honest question - do you or do you not agree that defensive rebounding is one of our biggest problems? Do you or do you not agree that interior defense is another one of our biggest problems? If you do, don't you think that we should care less about switching our center onto Steph Curry and more about securing more boards? I'm not setting out to bash anyone, my intention is team improvement, but I don't see how you answer that question without in some way or another implicating Willie Cauley Stein.
Just for the fun of it, here are some of the old pre-draft WCS threads to see how perceptions have shifted.
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willy-cauley-stein-interview.60866/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/can-wcss-d-make-up-for-his-lack-of-o.60447/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/2015-draft-prospects.57720/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willie-cauley-stein-is-your-newest-sacramento-king.61353/
Some great gems include:
@gunks
This line of argument is constantly baffles me. Clearly it's a team game. NOTHING is ever the sole fault of one player or position. Does that mean that we never criticize individuals? Or does every criticism have to be prefaced with a paragraph stating how despite the criticisms to follow said player does bring other things to the table? It's a forum and ideas are going to be repeated multiple times by multiple posters - I kind of assume that any argument or point being made should be taken in context of the historical bias of the poster, previous points made etc.
Again to my honest question - do you or do you not agree that defensive rebounding is one of our biggest problems? Do you or do you not agree that interior defense is another one of our biggest problems? If you do, don't you think that we should care less about switching our center onto Steph Curry and more about securing more boards? I'm not setting out to bash anyone, my intention is team improvement, but I don't see how you answer that question without in some way or another implicating Willie Cauley Stein.
Just for the fun of it, here are some of the old pre-draft WCS threads to see how perceptions have shifted.
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willy-cauley-stein-interview.60866/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/can-wcss-d-make-up-for-his-lack-of-o.60447/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/2015-draft-prospects.57720/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willie-cauley-stein-is-your-newest-sacramento-king.61353/
Some great gems include:
@gunks
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Well it has also been called the anchor of the defense.
This line of argument is constantly baffles me. Clearly it's a team game. NOTHING is ever the sole fault of one player or position. Does that mean that we never criticize individuals? Or does every criticism have to be prefaced with a paragraph stating how despite the criticisms to follow said player does bring other things to the table? It's a forum and ideas are going to be repeated multiple times by multiple posters - I kind of assume that any argument or point being made should be taken in context of the historical bias of the poster, previous points made etc.
Again to my honest question - do you or do you not agree that defensive rebounding is one of our biggest problems? Do you or do you not agree that interior defense is another one of our biggest problems? If you do, don't you think that we should care less about switching our center onto Steph Curry and more about securing more boards? I'm not setting out to bash anyone, my intention is team improvement, but I don't see how you answer that question without in some way or another implicating Willie Cauley Stein.
Just for the fun of it, here are some of the old pre-draft WCS threads to see how perceptions have shifted.
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willy-cauley-stein-interview.60866/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/can-wcss-d-make-up-for-his-lack-of-o.60447/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/2015-draft-prospects.57720/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willie-cauley-stein-is-your-newest-sacramento-king.61353/
Some great gems include:
@gunks
This line of argument is constantly baffles me. Clearly it's a team game. NOTHING is ever the sole fault of one player or position. Does that mean that we never criticize individuals? Or does every criticism have to be prefaced with a paragraph stating how despite the criticisms to follow said player does bring other things to the table? It's a forum and ideas are going to be repeated multiple times by multiple posters - I kind of assume that any argument or point being made should be taken in context of the historical bias of the poster, previous points made etc.
Again to my honest question - do you or do you not agree that defensive rebounding is one of our biggest problems? Do you or do you not agree that interior defense is another one of our biggest problems? If you do, don't you think that we should care less about switching our center onto Steph Curry and more about securing more boards? I'm not setting out to bash anyone, my intention is team improvement, but I don't see how you answer that question without in some way or another implicating Willie Cauley Stein.
Just for the fun of it, here are some of the old pre-draft WCS threads to see how perceptions have shifted.
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willy-cauley-stein-interview.60866/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/can-wcss-d-make-up-for-his-lack-of-o.60447/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/2015-draft-prospects.57720/
https://community.kingsfans.com/threads/willie-cauley-stein-is-your-newest-sacramento-king.61353/
Some great gems include:
@gunks
Willie came into the League with a reputation for being able to defend a lot of different positions. I am tired of watching him swat at the ball instead of moving his feet. He is slow to rotate from the weak side. (Late in games he makes some good plays). He is afraid of the rim and backs down from contact. When was the last time he took a charge? Mentally he is just not suited to playing against full grown men. I don't think there is a way to fix it. A guy like Stephen Adams would change the character of this team and get them to the next level.
Ok. Let's get to the bottom of this. WHY is WCS used as a switching perimeter defender as opposed to an interior defender? Could it be that Joerger wants to use him where he is best (perimeter) as opposed to worst (interior)? I think so. By the same token, Joerger has taken WCS out of games where he has gotten abused inside and put Kosta in his place. Thus, WCS has fewer minutes against interior bruisers, which skews his stats more favorably to him, not less. In sum, WCS does not "hang out near the basket on defense" for the very good reason that his coach wants to mask his weakness and accentuate his strength.