Is Cauley-Stein a Good Defender?

[twslam07]

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to find statistical evidence that Cauley-Stein is a good defender (see below) so I wanted to throw it all out there and have a discussion around his defensive abilities.

Total Impact
DRAPM = 0.44 (32nd among Cs)
DRPM = 2.11 (19th among Cs)
Def On/Off = -1.3 (6th on team)

Paint
Def Rebounds per 36 min = 7.8 (41st among Cs)
Def Box Outs per 36 min = 7.5 (51st among Cs)
Blocks per 36 min = 0.9 (68th among Cs)
Charger per 36 min = 0.0 (T-26th among Cs)
2PT Contested Shots per 36 min = 10.8 (73rd among Cs)
Opponent % at Rim when Defended = 67.9% (79th among Cs)

Perimeter
Steals per 36 min = 1.6 (9th among Cs)
Deflections per 36 min = 2.9 (9th among Cs)
Def Loose Balls Recovered per 36 min = (32nd among Cs)
3PT Contested Shots per 36 min = 10.8 (62nd among Cs)
Opponent 3PT% = 34.5% (26th among Cs)

 

[kingsboi]

so he has only two top ten ratings among his position and one of his best assets is being a player that gets some steals because he's lean and athletic and has quick hands but that doesn't necessarily make him a good defender. The stats tell us he isn't as you indicate and the eye test does the same, he plays defense when he wants to and that type of effort isn't something you commit to long term in my opinion but he would make an ideal back up big.

 

[Gguod]

Numbers suggest pretty heavily that he is not a good defender. He would be better utilized in a switch heavy scheme but we switch quite rarely.

Paying him anything significant would be a huge mistake. Every year market is filled with cheap quality centers. Dewayne Dedmon makes 6,3mil, AlexLen 4,3mil, Aron Baynes 5,2mil, Kyle O'Quinn 4,5mil, Brook Lopez 3,4mil, Kevon Looney 1,7mil, Harrell 6mil, McGee 2,3 mil, Tyson Chandler 2,1mil, Nerlens Noel 1,7mil, Noah Vonleh 1,6mil ect.

If we can get that type of production for under 6-7 mil, under no circumstances should we pay Willie over 10mil/year. Its a salary cap sport, that means the recources are limited so we need to use those recources wisely. Especially with centers, basically the dumbest thing you could do is to pay big bucks for an average starting level guy.

 

[bajaden]

Numbers suggest pretty heavily that he is not a good defender. He would be better utilized in a switch heavy scheme but we switch quite rarely.

Paying him anything significant would be a huge mistake. Every year market is filled with cheap quality centers. Dewayne Dedmon makes 6,3mil, AlexLen 4,3mil, Aron Baynes 5,2mil, Kyle O'Quinn 4,5mil, Brook Lopez 3,4mil, Kevon Looney 1,7mil, Harrell 6mil, McGee 2,3 mil, Tyson Chandler 2,1mil, Nerlens Noel 1,7mil, Noah Vonleh 1,6mil ect.

If we can get that type of production for under 6-7 mil, under no circumstances should we pay Willie over 10mil/year. Its a salary cap sport, that means the recources are limited so we need to use those recources wisely. Especially with centers, basically the dumbest thing you could do is to pay big bucks for an average starting level guy.

Actually Willie probably does more switching than any other player on the team. Most of those stats are reflective of a post defender, which Willie is seldom used as. How often do you see Willie hanging out near the basket on defense. He constantly switches onto other players. He's basically being used as a ball stopper, plugging holes in our defense. I've said it before and I'll say it one last time. Watch a game and only watch Willie, and see how many times he leaves his man to stop lane penetration, and then get back to his man. Because of his athleticism, he's being used in a way most teams wouldn't use a center.

That's not to say I don't get frustrated with him at times. Too often he's late to react to a loose ball or a rebound. I wish he would head for the basket when a shot goes up instead of watching. I don't think Willie is perfect by any means, but I also think people are far too critical of his defense. In a typical game, Willie spends half his time defending on the perimeter. That alone would affect most of those stats that are typical of a center. At Kentucky, Calipari had Willie exclusively in the post his first year, and he almost led college in blocks. It's all about how a team uses a player.

All that said, I'm not for overpaying him. However, he's a better player than almost everyone one of those players listed above, with emphasis on almost. Everyone loves Harrell, as do I, but Harrell has a defensive rating of 108, while Willie has a defensive rating of 107. Willie has the lowest defensive rating of any player on our team, and yet, there's no criticism of anyone else. A bit strange me thinks. Willie isn't perfect, but he's hardly the problem. Hey, if you can trade him for AD I'm on board. But lets try to be fair, and not point to one mistake, while ignoring three good plays.

Just generalizing and not referring to you by the way.

 

[Gguod]

Actually Willie probably does more switching than any other player on the team. Most of those stats are reflective of a post defender, which Willie is seldom used as. How often do you see Willie hanging out near the basket on defense. He constantly switches onto other players. He's basically being used as a ball stopper, plugging holes in our defense. I've said it before and I'll say it one last time. Watch a game and only watch Willie, and see how many times he leaves his man to stop lane penetration, and then get back to his man. Because of his athleticism, he's being used in a way most teams wouldn't use a center.

That's not to say I don't get frustrated with him at times. Too often he's late to react to a loose ball or a rebound. I wish he would head for the basket when a shot goes up instead of watching. I don't think Willie is perfect by any means, but I also think people are far too critical of his defense. In a typical game, Willie spends half his time defending on the perimeter. That alone would affect most of those stats that are typical of a center. At Kentucky, Calipari had Willie exclusively in the post his first year, and he almost led college in blocks. It's all about how a team uses a player.

All that said, I'm not for overpaying him. However, he's a better player than almost everyone one of those players listed above, with emphasis on almost. Everyone loves Harrell, as do I, but Harrell has a defensive rating of 108, while Willie has a defensive rating of 107. Willie has the lowest defensive rating of any player on our team, and yet, there's no criticism of anyone else. A bit strange me thinks. Willie isn't perfect, but he's hardly the problem. Hey, if you can trade him for AD I'm on board. But lets try to be fair, and not point to one mistake, while ignoring three good plays.

Just generalizing and not referring to you by the way.

WCS is easily an average starting level center in this league, hes a usefull player. I think his skillset would be best utilized in a team like Houston since he could switch a lot (while being easily an above average switching center) and offensively he would be a much more efficent while being just a lob catcher and finisher. He could also be productive here and hes been solid this year.

The point of listing those players was that you 100% would like to have any of those players with their current contracts rather than WCS for 13-15mil/year. And thats the thing, you can find cheap and good enough production at center so you really shouldnt put any significant money for an average starter.

 

[ESP47]

Actually Willie probably does more switching than any other player on the team. Most of those stats are reflective of a post defender, which Willie is seldom used as. How often do you see Willie hanging out near the basket on defense. He constantly switches onto other players. He's basically being used as a ball stopper, plugging holes in our defense. I've said it before and I'll say it one last time. Watch a game and only watch Willie, and see how many times he leaves his man to stop lane penetration, and then get back to his man. Because of his athleticism, he's being used in a way most teams wouldn't use a center.

That's not to say I don't get frustrated with him at times. Too often he's late to react to a loose ball or a rebound. I wish he would head for the basket when a shot goes up instead of watching. I don't think Willie is perfect by any means, but I also think people are far too critical of his defense. In a typical game, Willie spends half his time defending on the perimeter. That alone would affect most of those stats that are typical of a center. At Kentucky, Calipari had Willie exclusively in the post his first year, and he almost led college in blocks. It's all about how a team uses a player.

All that said, I'm not for overpaying him. However, he's a better player than almost everyone one of those players listed above, with emphasis on almost. Everyone loves Harrell, as do I, but Harrell has a defensive rating of 108, while Willie has a defensive rating of 107. Willie has the lowest defensive rating of any player on our team, and yet, there's no criticism of anyone else. A bit strange me thinks. Willie isn't perfect, but he's hardly the problem. Hey, if you can trade him for AD I'm on board. But lets try to be fair, and not point to one mistake, while ignoring three good plays.

Just generalizing and not referring to you by the way.

Willie has a gift and it's length and athleticism. Since the moment he's stepped on the court, he's been trying to be something he's not. Willie has no interest in being Tyson Chandler or Rudy Gobert. He wants to be an offensive force and that takes precedent over everything else. He doesn't use his god given elite gifts to impact the game. It would kind of be like Buddy refusing to shoot 3s or Fox refusing to drive past guys to get to the rim.

He's a solid defender but he should be a top 5 to top 10 defending center. His defensive RPM for centers has him ranked 19th out of 65. Other similarly built players like Chandler, Gobert, Whiteside and Jordan are all in the top 6. Also you can't compare his defensive rating to Harrell's because they're on different teams. The rating can only be compared to players on the same team since the stat relies too heavily on team defense. Koufos had a 99 rating in Memphis and it jumped to 107 the very next year with the Kings.

Willie switching isn't worth giving up the rim protection that the Kings sorely need. Capela is in a very switch heavy scheme and he still manages to defend the paint. The difference is that Capela takes on both responsibilities whereas Willie switches and seems to think that he no longer has to protect the rim since he's doing this other job. It's why you see layup drills for minutes at a time on the Kings and a lot of the time Willie could easily come from the weak side and swat the shot away but you see him just standing there watching. That's the frustrating part of all of it.

He's an above average player but it's frustrating watching a guy only fulfill a small part of his potential.

 

[twslam07]

\Most of those stats are reflective of a post defender, which Willie is seldom used as.

This is incorrect.

I reformatted the original post to make it easier for you to see how wrong this statement is.

 

[Kings_of_California]

I see some talk here and there about how Willie would be a nice backup big and a great asset off the bench, but am I the only one who sees Willie as the type of guy to complain if he gets removed from the starting lineup? He just strikes me as the type to pout about it.

 

[twslam07]

Willie has a gift and it's length and athleticism. Since the moment he's stepped on the court, he's been trying to be something he's not. Willie has no interest in being Tyson Chandler or Rudy Gobert. He wants to be an offensive force and that takes precedent over everything else. He doesn't use his god given elite gifts to impact the game. It would kind of be like Buddy refusing to shoot 3s or Fox refusing to drive past guys to get to the rim.

He's a solid defender but he should be a top 5 to top 10 defending center. His defensive RPM for centers has him ranked 19th out of 65. Other similarly built players like Chandler, Gobert, Whiteside and Jordan are all in the top 6. Also you can't compare his defensive rating to Harrell's because they're on different teams. The rating can only be compared to players on the same team since the stat relies too heavily on team defense. Koufos had a 99 rating in Memphis and it jumped to 107 the very next year with the Kings.

Willie switching isn't worth giving up the rim protection that the Kings sorely need. Capela is in a very switch heavy scheme and he still manages to defend the paint. The difference is that Capela takes on both responsibilities whereas Willie switches and seems to think that he no longer has to protect the rim since he's doing this other job. It's why you see layup drills for minutes at a time on the Kings and a lot of the time Willie could easily come from the weak side and swat the shot away but you see him just standing there watching. That's the frustrating part of all of it.

He's an above average player but it's frustrating watching a guy only fulfill a small part of his potential.

I like RAPM better than RPM, and it tends to marry up better with the eye test for me. These are the top defensive Cs in order according to RAPM:

Green = UFA
Red = RFA
Blue = PO
Black = Under Contract

1. Rudy Gobert
2. Ed Davis
3. Maxi Kleber
4. Myles Turner
5. Ivica Zubac
6. Joakim Noah
7. Jusuf Nurkic
8. Joel Embiid
9. Ian Mahinmi
10. Marc Gasol
11. Tyson Chandler
12. Nerlens Noel
13. Aron Baynes
14. Alex Len
15. Robin Lopez
16. Hassan Whiteside
17. Luke Kornet
18. Thon Maker
19. Ante Zizic
20. Steven Adams
21. Nikola Vucevic
22. Anthony Davis
23. Nene
24. Brook Lopez
25. Bam Adebayo
26. Zaza Pachulia
27. Andre Drummond
28. Jonas Valanciunas
29. DeAndre Jordan
30. Salah Mejri
31. Wendell Carter Jr.
32. Willie Cauley-Stein
33. Mitchell Robinson
34. Nikola Jokic
35. Kevon Looney
36. Al Horford
37. Karl-Anthony Towns
38. Kelly Olynyk
39. Jakob Poeltl
40. Mason Plumlee
41. Cody Zeller
42. Dwight Powell
43. LaMarcus Aldridge
44. Serge Ibaka

I feel like E. Davis, Noel, Baynes, & B. Lopez could be cheap, alternative options if Cauley-Stein gets offered a big contract.

Ed Davis
Pros:
- Defense
- Rebounds
- Athleticism
Cons:
- Size
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
- Fouls
- Age

Nerlens Noel
Pros:
- Age/Upside
- Perimeter Defense
- Rim Protection
- Rebounding
- FT%
- Athleticism
Cons:
- Strength
- Floor Spacing
- Offensive Game
- Fouls
- Injuries

Aron Baynes
Pros:
- Defense
- Rebounding
- Strength
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
Cons:
- Athleticism
- Age

Brook Lopez
Pros:
- Strength
- Rim Protection
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
- Scoring
Cons:
- Athleticism
- Rebounding
- Perimeter Defense
- Age

 

[SacTownKid]

Willie has a gift and it's length and athleticism. Since the moment he's stepped on the court, he's been trying to be something he's not. Willie has no interest in being Tyson Chandler or Rudy Gobert. He wants to be an offensive force and that takes precedent over everything else. He doesn't use his god given elite gifts to impact the game. It would kind of be like Buddy refusing to shoot 3s or Fox refusing to drive past guys to get to the rim.

He's a solid defender but he should be a top 5 to top 10 defending center. His defensive RPM for centers has him ranked 19th out of 65. Other similarly built players like Chandler, Gobert, Whiteside and Jordan are all in the top 6. Also you can't compare his defensive rating to Harrell's because they're on different teams. The rating can only be compared to players on the same team since the stat relies too heavily on team defense. Koufos had a 99 rating in Memphis and it jumped to 107 the very next year with the Kings.

Willie switching isn't worth giving up the rim protection that the Kings sorely need. Capela is in a very switch heavy scheme and he still manages to defend the paint. The difference is that Capela takes on both responsibilities whereas Willie switches and seems to think that he no longer has to protect the rim since he's doing this other job. It's why you see layup drills for minutes at a time on the Kings and a lot of the time Willie could easily come from the weak side and swat the shot away but you see him just standing there watching. That's the frustrating part of all of it.

He's an above average player but it's frustrating watching a guy only fulfill a small part of his potential.

I think this sums it up nicely. I do think if the scheme was better implemented his switch ability would be a much bigger positive but for the teams needs I don't think he's the perfect fit. I think this is yet another example of when centers are drafted into the league and they claim to be PF's or whatever other than centers they know what they are doing. They are basically saying don't get your hopes up, I'm here for offense.

 

[burekijogurt]

Its simple. Our perimeter is a sieve. WCS cannot cover for poor defending of all our guards.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Not to sound condescending, but I just don’t think those who feel WCS is a good defender note the concept of interior defense

As a team we are a poor rebounding interior defending team. These deficiencies get cleared up with new personnel

 

[KingsFanSince85]

This is incorrect.

I reformatted the original post to make it easier for you to see how wrong this statement is.

You are one of those that just loves to post and point to a bunch of analytics while foolishly believing you’ve proved some point. You haven’t.

@bajaden didn’t completely dismiss the evidence you think proves your case, while also clearly explaining how it doesn’t tell the entire story.

Per usual, your typical response is the ‘liar liar pants on fire’ defense and to regurgitate the info he already clearly explained doesn’t tell the entire story. In other words, you didn’t pay attention. That seems to be your M.O. No back and forth discussion, but rather your mind is made up already and these analytics, without entire context, say so. Whatever bro.

 

[twslam07]

You are one of those that just loves to post and point to a bunch of analytics while foolishly believing you’ve proved some point. You haven’t.

@bajaden didn’t completely dismiss the evidence you think proves your case, while also clearly explaining how it doesn’t tell the entire story.

Per usual, your typical response is the ‘liar liar pants on fire’ defense and to regurgitate the info he already clearly explained doesn’t tell the entire story. In other words, you didn’t pay attention. That seems to be your M.O. No back and forth discussion, but rather your mind is made up already and these analytics, without entire context, say so. Whatever bro.

Bajaden was wrong stating that most of those stats are reflective of a post defender. I called him on it. It’s as simple as that. No need to turn this into an emotional discussion and derail the thread.

 

[206Fan]

You are one of those that just loves to post and point to a bunch of analytics while foolishly believing you’ve proved some point. You haven’t.

@bajaden didn’t completely dismiss the evidence you think proves your case, while also clearly explaining how it doesn’t tell the entire story.

Per usual, your typical response is the ‘liar liar pants on fire’ defense and to regurgitate the info he already clearly explained doesn’t tell the entire story. In other words, you didn’t pay attention. That seems to be your M.O. No back and forth discussion, but rather your mind is made up already and these analytics, without entire context, say so. Whatever bro.

I like RAPM better than RPM, and it tends to marry up better with the eye test for me. These are the top defensive Cs in order according to RAPM:

Green = UFA
Red = RFA
Blue = PO
Black = Under Contract

1. Rudy Gobert
2. Ed Davis
3. Maxi Kleber
4. Myles Turner
5. Ivica Zubac
6. Joakim Noah
7. Jusuf Nurkic
8. Joel Embiid
9. Ian Mahinmi
10. Marc Gasol
11. Tyson Chandler
12. Nerlens Noel
13. Aron Baynes
14. Alex Len
15. Robin Lopez
16. Hassan Whiteside
17. Luke Kornet
18. Thon Maker
19. Ante Zizic
20. Steven Adams
21. Nikola Vucevic
22. Anthony Davis
23. Nene
24. Brook Lopez
25. Bam Adebayo
26. Zaza Pachulia
27. Andre Drummond
28. Jonas Valanciunas
29. DeAndre Jordan
30. Salah Mejri
31. Wendell Carter Jr.
32. Willie Cauley-Stein
33. Mitchell Robinson
34. Nikola Jokic
35. Kevon Looney
36. Al Horford
37. Karl-Anthony Towns
38. Kelly Olynyk
39. Jakob Poeltl
40. Mason Plumlee
41. Cody Zeller
42. Dwight Powell
43. LaMarcus Aldridge
44. Serge Ibaka

I feel like E. Davis, Noel, Baynes, & B. Lopez could be cheap, alternative options if Cauley-Stein gets offered a big contract.

Ed Davis
Pros:
- Defense
- Rebounds
- Athleticism
Cons:
- Size
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
- Fouls
- Age

Nerlens Noel
Pros:
- Age/Upside
- Perimeter Defense
- Rim Protection
- Rebounding
- FT%
- Athleticism
Cons:
- Strength
- Floor Spacing
- Offensive Game
- Fouls
- Injuries

Aron Baynes
Pros:
- Defense
- Rebounding
- Strength
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
Cons:
- Athleticism
- Age

Brook Lopez
Pros:
- Strength
- Rim Protection
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
- Scoring
Cons:
- Athleticism
- Rebounding
- Perimeter Defense
- Age

I'm not a big fan of the players you included. Mejri plays 6.8mins, Chandler 12.7, Maker 13.7, Nene 13.6, Noel 14.1, Mahinimi 14.4, Noah 14.3, Zaza 14.5, Baynes 14.9, Zubac 15.6, Kornet 15.9, and Zizic 16.4.

Willie plays 28.4mins, 10 more than any of those guys on the list. Not sure it's fair to compare him to non-starters or a team's 3rd big who goes up against bench players on a small sample size. I'm going to assume the rest of the data includes these bench bigs in the data which I think will skew some of your results a bit.

I like Ed Davis, but I see him more of a PF. He would be a good 3rd big, but I don't think he can be a Willie replacement.
Noel would be an interesting candidate. As you said, he lacks strength for the C position. I think he still has some potential left in him. Still only 24.
Baynes is kinda washed up at this stage of his career. Not sure why people like him as much...a 3pt shooting Kosta.
I really like Brook Lopez. I think he's probably the best center out of these guys. However, our team rebounding will probably very bad unless the other guys step up.

Nonetheless, this list is pretty sad.. for us I think we'll end up having to "overpay" WCS because none of these FAs deserve over $10million except for Vucevic if we're being truthful. Vuc will have a competitive market. Jordan will probably get over $10mpy, but he's already 30 and not someone you want to handicap your cap for.

ehh... I just don't see a WCS upgrade. If the FO really believes in Harry, I can see them going after a cheap vet big to bridge the gap for Harry. Even then... Harry is a pretty big risk himself. Yes we're still rebuilding, but if he doesn't progress as quickly as Fox or Bagley, then we won't have the patience to wait on him. It's why I think we'll fall back on WCS. He's a safe player for us because he can bridge the gap for Harry AND be a 26 yearold average starting C. Whereas with the other players, you're looking at 30+. I'm all for upgrading the C position, but I just don't see an upgrade available through FA.........unless you want DeMarcus back.

 

[dude12]

I like RAPM better than RPM, and it tends to marry up better with the eye test for me. These are the top defensive Cs in order according to RAPM:

Green = UFA
Red = RFA
Blue = PO
Black = Under Contract

1. Rudy Gobert
2. Ed Davis
3. Maxi Kleber
4. Myles Turner
5. Ivica Zubac
6. Joakim Noah
7. Jusuf Nurkic
8. Joel Embiid
9. Ian Mahinmi
10. Marc Gasol
11. Tyson Chandler
12. Nerlens Noel
13. Aron Baynes
14. Alex Len
15. Robin Lopez
16. Hassan Whiteside
17. Luke Kornet
18. Thon Maker
19. Ante Zizic
20. Steven Adams
21. Nikola Vucevic
22. Anthony Davis
23. Nene
24. Brook Lopez
25. Bam Adebayo
26. Zaza Pachulia
27. Andre Drummond
28. Jonas Valanciunas
29. DeAndre Jordan
30. Salah Mejri
31. Wendell Carter Jr.
32. Willie Cauley-Stein
33. Mitchell Robinson
34. Nikola Jokic
35. Kevon Looney
36. Al Horford
37. Karl-Anthony Towns
38. Kelly Olynyk
39. Jakob Poeltl
40. Mason Plumlee
41. Cody Zeller
42. Dwight Powell
43. LaMarcus Aldridge
44. Serge Ibaka

I feel like E. Davis, Noel, Baynes, & B. Lopez could be cheap, alternative options if Cauley-Stein gets offered a big contract.

Ed Davis
Pros:
- Defense
- Rebounds
- Athleticism
Cons:
- Size
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
- Fouls
- Age

Nerlens Noel
Pros:
- Age/Upside
- Perimeter Defense
- Rim Protection
- Rebounding
- FT%
- Athleticism
Cons:
- Strength
- Floor Spacing
- Offensive Game
- Fouls
- Injuries

Aron Baynes
Pros:
- Defense
- Rebounding
- Strength
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
Cons:
- Athleticism
- Age

Brook Lopez
Pros:
- Strength
- Rim Protection
- Floor Spacing
- FT%
- Scoring
Cons:
- Athleticism
- Rebounding
- Perimeter Defense
- Age

Interesting list....but it seems like defensive metrics can be all over the place. I’ll keep it simpler, all of the potential replacements you listed, are flawed as much as WCS as is many on that list of 44. If you went to a GM convention and were given the chance to tell them you can select Noel or WCS for your team at $12M per, how many would take Noel over WCS?

 

[CelticsFan]

If you went to a GM convention and were given the chance to tell them you can select Noel or WCS for your team at $12M per, how many would take Noel over WCS?

But Noel makes $2M

 

[burekijogurt]

But Noel makes $2M

he was offered 70 over 4 years which he turned down

 

[CelticsFan]

he was offered 70 over 4 years which he turned down

When you bet on yourself sometimes you win like Jimmy Butler did, sometimes you lose like Noel did.

 

[funkykingston]

I think Bagley is the five man of the future. He needs to add strength/put on weight, but he can eventually be a prototypical NBA big who rebounds, offers some interior defense/paint protection and runs the floor but who can spread the floor as an outside threat.

He lacks Willie's length but he's already a more stout interior defender. So far his rebounding is about the same as WCS (which isn't great) but that will improve in time and with added strength. Where Bagley is far behind Cauley-Stein is as a passer and his defensive awareness isn't close to where you could start him for a team with playoff aspirations. But he's growing by leaps and bounds.

So the question for me is whether it's worth spending a lot of money on Trill just to be a bridge to Bagley and then as his backup. I think the Kings are better off saving that money for Hield and Bogdanovic next offseason and Fox the year after that. Just as with Fox, you take the training wheels of MB3 and let him start next season. Maybe alongside Bjelica at the 4 with Giles getting the bulk of the backup minutes at both PF and C.

 

[dude12]

But Noel makes $2M

Wasn’t the question

 

[CelticsFan]

Wasn’t the question

Maybe I misunderstood, are you saying that’s what you expect them to make this offseason?

 

[Sac.1989]

When you bet on yourself sometimes you win like Jimmy Butler did, sometimes you lose like Noel did.

Yep, we all remember Bonzi Wells who turned down our offer and ended up in China 3 months later

 

[dude12]

Maybe I misunderstood, are you saying that’s what you expect them to make this offseason?

No, read again.....I was putting out a hypothetical scenario.....A GM gets to sign either for $12M or really you can call it any amount as long as it’s similar.......who do the GM’s take?

 

[CelticsFan]

No, read again.....I was putting out a hypothetical scenario.....A GM gets to sign either for $12M or really you can call it any amount as long as it’s similar.......who do the GM’s take?

I get it now sorry, I had no idea where the $12M came from.

I’m torn between the two at the same price. Noel is better defensively and younger, but you know what you are getting in WCS in this system on this team. Both Noel and WCS are comparable, I’m not sure who I would take. It will be interesting to see who has more teams chasing them. I would think since Noel is an URFA teams will chase him more knowing they can give him a take it or leave it offer instead of waiting to see if the Kings match WCS.

 

[RichieInRocklin]

The real question is "Who would OUR GM (Vlade) take"?

 

[ParniValjak]

The real question is "Who would OUR GM (Vlade) take"?

I have said this before and I will say it again. With the Kings trading for Harrison Barnes and addressing that SF position with a player who can also play PF in smaller line ups the next issue for us to address is rebounding. Ideally, the player would also be able to spread the floor so that you can afford to start Bagley instead of Bjelica while Marvin is still developing his 3pt range.

Vlade comes from Serbian school of basketball where fundamentals are drilled into players from a very young age. I firmly believe that the #1 target for the Kings in free agency in Nikola Vucevic. He is in the right age bracket, an UFA and a fundamentally a very good player. He can dribble, pass, shoot, rebound and provide some shot blocking. I think that he would fit really well with the current team especially when you consider that our pace is likely going to slow down when the players learn to execute at a lower pace and in half court. I am not saying we will fall off the cliff in terms of pace but I am saying that we will still be up there but a more capable team in the half court sets as the youngsters mature.

Where the Kings might have some real inside running with Vucevic is precisely because of the multiple Serbian connections with the Kings. Vlade, Peja, Bogdan and Nemanja. There is some real comfort there with the pre-existing relationships with these guys and as was the case with Bjelica, "when Vlade calls, you pick up the phone"....this might just be the case with Vucevic.

Vucevic
Bagley
Barnes
Hield
Fox

Bogdanovic
Giles
Bjelica
Farrell

That is a pretty solid young team that is good now and still has a great deal of scope for improvement in coming years.

 

[bajaden]

Bajaden was wrong stating that most of those stats are reflective of a post defender. I called him on it. It’s as simple as that. No need to turn this into an emotional discussion and derail the thread.

I didn't respond back because frankly, it's probably a waste of my time. But what the hell. I know what my eye's tell me, and if you think those stats tell the whole story, then your crazy. Willie is a starting center, which means he goes up against the other teams starting center on a nightly basis. Players like KAT, AD, Gobert, Ädams, etc. Do you honestly think that Thon Maker would do a better job against AD than Willie. Maker goes up against the bench players in the league, so does Harrell for the most part.

If your question would have been, is Willie a great defender, I would have said no. But you asked if Willie is a good defender, and he definitely is. But the question shouldn't only be about Willie's defense, it should be about his entire game. The Kings run the ball through Willie out of the high post. Try doing that with Thon Maker, or Harrell. Willie's a good passer, and seldom turns the ball over. And Willie has proved to be a very durable player, seldom missing games due to injury.

Do you really think that Alex Len, who is a stones throw away from being out of the league, is a better player than Willie? Really? I mean have you watched Len play? Would I like an upgrade at center? Your dam right I would, but that doesn't mean I think Willie isn't a good player. He's just not a great player. Everyone loves Capella, but the Kings couldn't use Capella the same way they use Willie. Take Capella away from the basket, and he's useless on offense. He has terrible handles, and is a bad passer. How often do you see Capella out at the 3 pt line going one on one with a PG. Willie does it all the time. You could never run the ball through Capella out of the high post.

I've heard people complain about the Kings running their offense out of the high post. Well, if you want to spread the floor, then you don't want your center standing under the basket. Webber operated from there, and so did Cousins, and both were better from there because both could shoot the ball better than Willie. But Willie is good enough from out there, either by shooting, or by putting the ball on the floor if you leave him, or turn your head, and going to the basket. In other words, you have to guard him. Have you ever seen how closely teams guard Steven Adams when he moves out there? They don't!

My point is, there's a lot that goes into playing the center position other than how many blocked shots he has. Willie blocked 5 shots in a recent game. Can anyone tell me how many of those blocks ended up in a possession for us? I'm not saying it's not important, but it's not as important as some make it out to be. If Willie blocks a shot at the basket, and the ball ends up back in their hands, and they hit a three, what did we gain?

 

[bajaden]

I have said this before and I will say it again. With the Kings trading for Harrison Barnes and addressing that SF position with a player who can also play PF in smaller line ups the next issue for us to address is rebounding. Ideally, the player would also be able to spread the floor so that you can afford to start Bagley instead of Bjelica while Marvin is still developing his 3pt range.

Vlade comes from Serbian school of basketball where fundamentals are drilled into players from a very young age. I firmly believe that the #1 target for the Kings in free agency in Nikola Vucevic. He is in the right age bracket, an UFA and a fundamentally a very good player. He can dribble, pass, shoot, rebound and provide some shot blocking. I think that he would fit really well with the current team especially when you consider that our pace is likely going to slow down when the players learn to execute at a lower pace and in half court. I am not saying we will fall off the cliff in terms of pace but I am saying that we will still be up there but a more capable team in the half court sets as the youngsters mature.

Where the Kings might have some real inside running with Vucevic is precisely because of the multiple Serbian connections with the Kings. Vlade, Peja, Bogdan and Nemanja. There is some real comfort there with the pre-existing relationships with these guys and as was the case with Bjelica, "when Vlade calls, you pick up the phone"....this might just be the case with Vucevic.

Vucevic
Bagley
Barnes
Hield
Fox

Bogdanovic
Giles
Bjelica
Farrell

That is a pretty solid young team that is good now and still has a great deal of scope for improvement in coming years.

I agree completely. Vucevic is number one on my list. He fits the age criteria, he's a terrific rebounder, defends the post well, he's a good passer who you could run the offense through, and Oh, by the way, he's a very good offensive player who can shoot the three as well. Vucevic would automatically make us a contender in the west. Now all Vlade has to do is convince him to sign on the dotted line.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I have said this before and I will say it again. With the Kings trading for Harrison Barnes and addressing that SF position with a player who can also play PF in smaller line ups the next issue for us to address is rebounding. Ideally, the player would also be able to spread the floor so that you can afford to start Bagley instead of Bjelica while Marvin is still developing his 3pt range.

Vlade comes from Serbian school of basketball where fundamentals are drilled into players from a very young age. I firmly believe that the #1 target for the Kings in free agency in Nikola Vucevic. He is in the right age bracket, an UFA and a fundamentally a very good player. He can dribble, pass, shoot, rebound and provide some shot blocking. I think that he would fit really well with the current team especially when you consider that our pace is likely going to slow down when the players learn to execute at a lower pace and in half court. I am not saying we will fall off the cliff in terms of pace but I am saying that we will still be up there but a more capable team in the half court sets as the youngsters mature.

Where the Kings might have some real inside running with Vucevic is precisely because of the multiple Serbian connections with the Kings. Vlade, Peja, Bogdan and Nemanja. There is some real comfort there with the pre-existing relationships with these guys and as was the case with Bjelica, "when Vlade calls, you pick up the phone"....this might just be the case with Vucevic.

Vucevic
Bagley
Barnes
Hield
Fox

Bogdanovic
Giles
Bjelica
Farrell

That is a pretty solid young team that is good now and still has a great deal of scope for improvement in coming years.

How are they affording all of those players? If they sign Vucevic to any type of max I’d expect them to lose one to two of the existing core

Vucevic will be highly pursued. Starting with Orlando, a city he likes, who have already put Bamba on the market with their probable intention of keeping him