Luka Doncic - performance discussion

[ESP47]

But that's the thing, is the Kings have a ton of shooters and added a big guy who in a year or two is going to be unstoppable. Having a major inside presence opens up more space for the shooters, and when your shots aren't falling from deep, you bang it inside for easier (but less valuable) buckets.

Even if we concede that Doncic will have the better career (which I think is far from a foregone conclusion); the Kings needed an elite inside guy more than they needed Doncic who represents an incremental upgrade on players they already have.

The problem with Davis was that they've been married to one of the worst coaches in the league and despite that Davis has always been good enough to keep them from drafting serious talent to build around. Incidentally - I fear this for Doncic now as well. Even after they trade everyone for a giant question mark; the guy is still willing them to win games and is probably going to insure they lose their first rounder this year, forcing them to bank everything on winning big in free agency. Yet I don't hear any players saying "DALLAS!" in their trade demands.

The good news for us is we already have fox and hield.

The Rockets, Warriors and LeBron Cavs didn't open up space for shooters by having an offensive minded big man down low. They opened up space for shooters by having perimeter players that could drive, kick and shoot at a moments notice. All the big men on theses teams have to do is defend.

It would kind of be like the Warriors saying "Nah we don't want Durant because we already have Klay and Steph". Now with Durant they are nearly unbeatable regardless of whether they employ McGee, Looney, Jones or whoever at the center position. All they need is a guy down there who can put up some sort of resistance on the defensive end and set screens. Everything else is taken care of by the wings. The Rockets were a Chris Paul injury away from beating the Warriors using a more exaggerated version of the same strategy. They had Capela at C and Tucker at PF and almost all of their points are assisted from their perimeter players. Having a big man operate in the post only takes away from the perimeter players shooting more efficient 3s. I bet you D'antoni wouldn't even take a guy like Lamarcus Aldridge because his 20ppg on a bunch of turnaround 2 point shots just isn't as efficient as the rag tag wings getting assisted on 3s all game by Harden and Paul.

 

[midtowner]

I agree with most of this post - except Bagley could develop into way more than a typical post up player. He may develop a perimeter game. And he may be able to shot fake, take one dribble, and be at the rim. Lots of unknowns regarding the type of player that he will become.

 

[ESP47]

I agree with most of this post - except Bagley could develop into way more than a typical post up player. He may develop a perimeter game. And he may be able to shot fake, take one dribble, and be at the rim. Lots of unknowns regarding the type of player that he will become.

He absolutely could. At that point he would kind of be like Cousins which then brings me back to my original point a couple posts ago. In the end I still think Doncic's skill set is more important.

Like let's say last week the Pels traded AD straight up for Doncic and kept Mitotic and then signed WCS next year. I think a lineup of

WCS
Mirotic
Doncic
Moore
Holiday

would be much better suited to play in the NBA right now and would win a lot more games than the roster with AD this year. A lot of the time we get caught up in thinking what would have won in the NBA 10-20 years ago and those tactics have become outdated in a hurry the last few years.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

but what good is comparing Doncic on a mostly clean slate vs. adding Bagley to complete our team?

We had a nice core. The fact that Bags is being held back to properly develop and we are still above .500 at the ASB for the first time in a dozen years shows that he's the star on the tree not the base holding it up (arguably that's Fox for us and that's what Doncic would be).

And like the Mavs we'd probably be chopping down the tree at the deadline instead of finding some pretty decorations like we did.

 

[ESP47]

but what good is comparing Doncic on a mostly clean slate vs. adding Bagley to complete our team?

We had a nice core. The fact that Bags is being held back to properly develop and we are still above .500 at the ASB for the first time in a dozen years shows that he's the star on the tree not the base holding it up (arguably that's Fox for us and that's what Doncic would be).

And like the Mavs we'd probably be chopping down the tree at the deadline instead of finding some pretty decorations like we did.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison. The Mavs had Doncic, a veteran Jordan, an underachieving young Smith Jr and a bunch of nobodies. Why would the Kings rebuild if they drafted Doncic over Bagley? My whole point here is offensive big men aren't what's needed to complete teams. It's the Doncic type players of the world.

 

[midtowner]

Or Giannis, or LeBron, or Jokic...

 

[Showtime]

The question is how many generational players can you have at the same time?

I'll put my 2 cents on that. A generational player is one that comes around once every 15 - 20 years or so and completely dominates or revolutionizes the game and there is no disputing his status while he is playing.

The current generational player is Lebron. His dominant run has been unquestioned. Put him on almost any team in the league and he will elevate them to the playoffs and possible title contenders. He changed how much control players have over their own careers and how players choose to combine with other players to form super teams rather than just hope the team that drafted them is competent enough to produce a title run.

There are always star players in the league who are amazing and put up big time stats and break records. But they aren't all generational. The jury is out on who the next guy will be.

Generational in his ability to potentially be this era's Larry Bird: incredibly clutch performer with an all around game and finishing ability that only comes around every 15-20 years.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Reminds me of a another young man we had in Sacramento as a rookie, albeit he’s a better shooter and passer, who was given carte blanche as a rookie to the tune of 20-5-5 and all sorts of accolades. Not trying to take anything away from Doncic, as he is very good, but the hype is a bit much . I think Bagley was the right pick. We shall see how it all plays out

 

[ESP47]

Reminds me of a another young man we had in Sacramento as a rookie, albeit he’s a better shooter and passer, who was given carte blanche as a rookie to the tune of 20-5-5 and all sorts of accolades. Not trying to take anything away from Doncic, as he is very good, but the hype is a bit much . I think Bagley was the right pick. We shall see how it all plays out

Tyreke is such an outlier. How often has a rookie put up 20-5-5 and been a bit of a bust? Just once ever. Go down the list of all time great rookie seasons and for every Tyreke there's a dozen of other great players.

 

[Hoovtrain]

 

[Joshoua]

I'm not sure I understand the comparison. The Mavs had Doncic, a veteran Jordan, an underachieving young Smith Jr and a bunch of nobodies. Why would the Kings rebuild if they drafted Doncic over Bagley? My whole point here is offensive big men aren't what's needed to complete teams. It's the Doncic type players of the world.

I guess it’s hard for some people to put Luka at 3 or 4 like he can’t play that position. If you can’t see Fox/Buddy/Luka/Bjlecia/WCS working than I don’t know what to tell you. This ball dominate crap people are trying to feed is hilarious, Fox becomes an even better defender in that lineup, how many open 3s is Buddy gonna get with 2 playmakers.

but what good is comparing Doncic on a mostly clean slate vs. adding Bagley to complete our team?

We had a nice core. The fact that Bags is being held back to properly develop and we are still above .500 at the ASB for the first time in a dozen years shows that he's the star on the tree not the base holding it up (arguably that's Fox for us and that's what Doncic would be).

And like the Mavs we'd probably be chopping down the tree at the deadline instead of finding some pretty decorations like we did.

Dallas rebuild smh you wouldn’t give up Smith for Porzingis who wouldn’t do that deal I bet Philadelphia wishes they didn’t wait to trade Faultz.

 

[roasthawg]

I guess it’s hard for some people to put Luka at 3 or 4 like he can’t play that position. If you can’t see Fox/Buddy/Luka/Bjlecia/WCS working than I don’t know what to tell you. This ball dominate crap people are trying to feed is hilarious, Fox becomes an even better defender in that lineup, how many open 3s is Buddy gonna get with 2 playmakers.



Dallas rebuild smh you wouldn’t give up Smith for Porzingis who wouldn’t do that deal I bet Philadelphia wishes they didn’t wait to trade Faultz.

It's not just us, valde and co. didn't like the fit either. Not that it couldn't have worked, just that Bagley was a better all around option all things considered.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Dallas rebuild smh you wouldn’t give up Smith for Porzingis who wouldn’t do that deal I bet Philadelphia wishes they didn’t wait to trade Faultz.

It's not that the trade was made, it's that whatever they were building in Dallas before Luka they have thrown away. Along with all their draft capital. There were multiple first rounders in that trade for a guy with an injury. Great on paper but it has the Boogie trade written all over it.

It's taken us a dozen seasons to get where we are and I'm happy. I honestly think Dallas will be looking up at us in the standings for years to come.

 

[Showtime]

It's not just us, valde and co. didn't like the fit either. Not that it couldn't have worked, just that Bagley was a better all around option all things considered.

It isn't that they didn't like the fit, its that they thought MB3 was a better fit next to Fox being an inside-outside duo vs having two talented perimeter guys that need the ball. Its good vs better, not that they didn't like it. But that's a judgement call, not a definitive conclusion. Hell, the Kings might be in the fourth spot right now with Luka, but we will never know.

Nobody thinks it is bad to want a modern era Stockton and Malone combo, but when you pass up a Larry Bird to get your Malone, expect criticism.

 

[andjel]

... and when you bring such comparisons for players less than a year in the league expect push back.

 

[Joshoua]

It's not that the trade was made, it's that whatever they were building in Dallas before Luka they have thrown away. Along with all their draft capital. There were multiple first rounders in that trade for a guy with an injury. Great on paper but it has the Boogie trade written all over it.

It's taken us a dozen seasons to get where we are and I'm happy. I honestly think Dallas will be looking up at us in the standings for years to come.

You do whatever it take to get players like Doncic and Porzingis Doncic even more. If they don’t make that trade they have Smith/Wendell Carter going for not bright at all. With that they can’t go all in for Porzingis cause he’d threaten not to resign. There future would’ve been bleak and in for a long rebuild. Now you have an all star type big and Luka who looks like a future mvp type player all of a sudden that rebuild can end this off season.

Also in 2-3 years I think the west will be ran by Sacramento/Dallas which is great **** the LA/GSW teams.

It's not just us, valde and co. didn't like the fit either. Not that it couldn't have worked, just that Bagley was a better all around option all things considered.

I hate using fit the draft at 2 now if it’s cause they think Bagley has a higher cieling that fine, although i strongly disagree with that as well

 

[Joshoua]

 

[Livinthedream]

The Dallas squad to start the season should have been better than what they were. They had proven vets surrounding an generational player.

 

[Telemachus]

I haven't read through the last couple pages but I agree with that. I like Bagley and am rooting for him as hard as I am for any King but I can't help but think about how difficult it's been for Anthony Davis to get to the playoffs when he is essentially Bagley at his ceiling with even better defense. If AD can't get anything going, then how important are offensive minded big men these days to winning basketball games?

It seems as if big men led teams kind of top out around .500 depending on who their help is. Embiid without Simmons was somewhere around .500 and with Simmons he's a perennial playoff contender. KAT can't get anything going without Butler. Cousins had the least amount of talent around him but he still had Gay, IT and Rondo at some points. The Lemarcus Aldridge led Spurs are just "meh".

These days if you don't shoot a ton of 3s, you don't compete. The NBA really needs to push the 3 point line back by a couple feet to restore order in the league because it's tilted way too far in the favor of perimeter players. All teams need to do to win is load up on perimeter players that can shoot and then counteract your all star big man with a solid defending big man who just rebounds, blocks shots and catches lobs. At that point it doesn't matter if your all star big man scores 35 because he can't out efficiency all these perimeter players jacking up 3s. Your big has to shoot 50% from 2 to be able to compete with a G League no name who shoots 33% from 3. These days everyone is shooting well above 33% so your big has to be extremely efficient and has to get to the line a ton to be able to compete with average NBA players shooting average NBA 3 pointers. I wish the league would do something about it honestly but until then, the big man is not nearly as important as the wing....especially one who does it all like Doncic.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it is pretty much true of any player regardless of position. The only player in recent history to carry his team by himself is LaBron, and even he has had some top talent on most of those teams. You need more than one really good or great player to be successful in the NBA.

 

[Hoovtrain]

So now Doncic is being compared to Bird? Ok

 

[SLAB]

The Dallas squad to start the season should have been better than what they were. They had proven vets surrounding an generational player.

You can’t be serious...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You can’t be serious...

Can't he? Dallas' opening night roster including the following players:

1. DeAndre Jordan
   • Regular Season Experience: 750 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 57 games
2. Wesley Matthews
   • Regular Season Experience: 655 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 32 games
3. Salah Mejri
   • Regular Season Experience: 184 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 4 games
4. Dwight Powell
   • Regular Season Experience: 254 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 6 games
5. Devin Harris
   • Regular Season Experience: 917 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 64 games
6. JJ Barea
   • Regular Season Experience: 764 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 49 games

All of those guys came into the 2018-19 season with at least three years NBA experience, all of them have played in at least one playoff series, four of them have been out of the first round, and two of them have been to the NBA Finals. And that's just under half their opening night roster. So... what definition of "proven vets" are we using, that it doesn't apply to these guys?

 

[VF21]

It isn't that they didn't like the fit, its that they thought MB3 was a better fit next to Fox being an inside-outside duo vs having two talented perimeter guys that need the ball. Its good vs better, not that they didn't like it. But that's a judgement call, not a definitive conclusion. Hell, the Kings might be in the fourth spot right now with Luka, but we will never know.

Nobody thinks it is bad to want a modern era Stockton and Malone combo, but when you pass up a Larry Bird to get your Malone, expect criticism.

And that's why people jump in with both feet. Let the kid complete his first season at least before you anoint him to be Larry Bird.

 

[Joshoua]

Can't he? Dallas' opening night roster including the following players:

1. DeAndre Jordan
   • Regular Season Experience: 750 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 57 games
2. Wesley Matthews
   • Regular Season Experience: 655 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 32 games
3. Salah Mejri
   • Regular Season Experience: 184 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 4 games
4. Dwight Powell
   • Regular Season Experience: 254 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 6 games
5. Devin Harris
   • Regular Season Experience: 917 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 64 games
6. JJ Barea
   • Regular Season Experience: 764 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 49 games

All of those guys came into the 2018-19 season with at least three years NBA experience, all of them have played in at least one playoff series, four of them have been out of the first round, and two of them have been to the NBA Finals. And that's just under half their opening night roster. So... what definition of "proven vets" are we using, that it doesn't apply to these guys?

We should pick up Carmelo than he has vet experience and will be a hall of fame player

 

[Livinthedream]

Can't he? Dallas' opening night roster including the following players:

1. DeAndre Jordan
   • Regular Season Experience: 750 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 57 games
2. Wesley Matthews
   • Regular Season Experience: 655 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 32 games
3. Salah Mejri
   • Regular Season Experience: 184 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 4 games
4. Dwight Powell
   • Regular Season Experience: 254 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 6 games
5. Devin Harris
   • Regular Season Experience: 917 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 64 games
6. JJ Barea
   • Regular Season Experience: 764 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 49 games

All of those guys came into the 2018-19 season with at least three years NBA experience, all of them have played in at least one playoff series, four of them have been out of the first round, and two of them have been to the NBA Finals. And that's just under half their opening night roster. So... what definition of "proven vets" are we using, that it doesn't apply to these guys?

Still had Harrison Barnes as well, who missed the first few games. 514 regular season games. 64 playoff games.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

We should pick up Carmelo than he has vet experience and will be a hall of fame player

Your tone is facetious, but I dare you to find one player with Anthony's résumé who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

In any case, Anthony's biggest problem is that he's shown no indication that he's willing to accept a role commensurate with his declining abilities. There's no indication that that applies to any of the guys on the Mavericks. Plus, those guys are all generally considered to be way more coachable; they've certainly all proven that they can play around a star.

 

[Livinthedream]

You can’t be serious...

The Dallas starting 5 looked more solid than what we believed the Kings starting 5 would be capable of. Even more so if you think Luka is a top player in the league.

1. Luka Doncic
2. DSJ
3. Wesley Matthews
4. Harrison Barnes
5. DeAndre Jordan

Vs.

1. DeAron Fox
2. Buddy Hield
3. Iman Shumper
4. Nemenja Bjelica
4. WCS

 

[Joshoua]

Your tone is facetious, but I dare you to find one player with Anthony's résumé who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

In any case, Anthony's biggest problem is that he's shown no indication that he's willing to accept a role commensurate with his declining abilities. There's no indication that that applies to any of the guys on the Mavericks. Plus, those guys are all generally considered to be way more coachable; they've certainly all proven that they can play around a star.

No I’m implying the players you named arnt what there resume says they are there just names at this point. DJ/Wes are half of what they were 3-4 years ago so what if they have vet experience. It’s like people saying we have vets in KK/ZBo

 

[burekijogurt]

Can't he? Dallas' opening night roster including the following players:

1. DeAndre Jordan
   • Regular Season Experience: 750 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 57 games
2. Wesley Matthews
   • Regular Season Experience: 655 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 32 games
3. Salah Mejri
   • Regular Season Experience: 184 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 4 games
4. Dwight Powell
   • Regular Season Experience: 254 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 6 games
5. Devin Harris
   • Regular Season Experience: 917 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 64 games
6. JJ Barea
   • Regular Season Experience: 764 games
   • Playoffs Experience: 49 games

All of those guys came into the 2018-19 season with at least three years NBA experience, all of them have played in at least one playoff series, four of them have been out of the first round, and two of them have been to the NBA Finals. And that's just under half their opening night roster. So... what definition of "proven vets" are we using, that it doesn't apply to these guys?

I don't think SLAB is questioning the fact that those players are proven vets, I think he is questioning the assertion that a team of said proven vets should have a better record in the Western Conference the way it is.

 

[sergmatt]

I don't think SLAB is questioning the fact that those players are proven vets, I think he is questioning the assertion that a team of said proven vets should have a better record in the Western Conference the way it is.

Well said and that is Exactly what SLAB was questioning and Slim's response is exactly why I didn't want to get sucked into one of Slim's famous never ending arguments a page back. Granted Slim's response is well thought out with good research. It's also aesthetic with the bullet points but as is often the case it's missing the mark in context. End result you end up getting into an argument that has little or nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Yes "technically" Barnes, Matthews, and Jordan are well established proven veterans but 2 of the 3 suck these days and are no where near as good as they used to be. Barnes while a solid player is not a #1 or #2 option like Dallas planned for him to be. Personally I think he's a good 4th option.

Nobody knew at the beginning of the season but I think it's safe to say that the Kings roster 2 weeks ago was much more talented than the Mavericks roster.