Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)

[Gguod]

Luka will need to be catered to...a difficult task with a salary cap. This is not the BS half-measure of FFP, but real financial restrictions. Bagley, OTOH, is a young, sleek Ronaldo just waiting to blossom.

Thats just a weird opinion. Luka doesnt need to be catered to. Thats the exact point on this valuing different positions, skillsets and roles. Luka creates offense. He creates it to himself and others. Players who need to be catered to are more often big men who arent able to beat their man off the dribble behind the three point line. Players who need to be catered to are those who are more finishers, like Bagley, Ayton and JJJ (offensively). You have to cater to those guys to get them the ball in situations where they can be succesful. Guys you dont need to cater to are guys who are ball handling offensive creators. Those are the guys you absolutely need and are the most valuable if you want to be a good offensive team. Those are the guys who cater for others.

Players who create for others aka cater for other players are: Ball handling offensive creators. For example players like Fox, Doncic, Kyrie Irving, Kemb Walker ect.
Players who need to be catered to: Finishers and pure catch and shooters who cant create effective offense by simply giving them the ball. Guys like Bagley, Deandre Jordan, Clint Capela, Ryan Anderson ect.

You can always improve the effectiveness of these ball handling creators for example by surounding them with shooters and creating good offensive sets but if you want anything significant offensively from finishers, you need to cater for them very heavily and that happens by defense focusing on players like Fox or Luka and that opening opportunities for finishers.

 

[Gguod]

I wanted Doncic because of his pro experience, I'm not moving the friggin goal post. I wanted the guy that would come in NBA ready because I saw a team in dire need that was still 2-3 years away from a 40 win season.

But that was always a legit question even among the die-hards was how much growth potential he has compared to the average raw American college prospect.

Not sure why I got suckered back in here.

The thing about what people often mix with potential is the 'absolute ceiling' of a player. In reality potential is really about how good this player can develope realisticly and how probable that outcome is.

Going for the guy with the absolute highest ceiling imo is the wrong way to look at things. You want the guy who has a high realistic chance becoming a very good player. Thats potential.

Also your "potential" or ceiling is limited a lot if you are a certain type of player and/or play a certain type of role. If you have a realistically high chance of becoming a very good player playing the most valuable position in the whole game, your potential is great. If you have a realistically high chance of becoming a very good player playing a less important role, then that limits your "potential" and potential value

 

[Joshoua]

Thats just a weird opinion. Luka doesnt need to be catered to. Thats the exact point on this valuing different positions, skillsets and roles. Luka creates offense. He creates it to himself and others. Players who need to be catered to are more often big men who arent able to beat their man off the dribble behind the three point line. Players who need to be catered to are those who are more finishers, like Bagley, Ayton and JJJ (offensively). You have to cater to those guys to get them the ball in situations where they can be succesful. Guys you dont need to cater to are guys who are ball handling offensive creators. Those are the guys you absolutely need and are the most valuable if you want to be a good offensive team. Those are the guys who cater for others.

Players who create for others aka cater for other players are: Ball handling offensive creators. For example players like Fox, Doncic, Kyrie Irving, Kemb Walker ect.
Players who need to be catered to: Finishers and pure catch and shooters who cant create effective offense by simply giving them the ball. Guys like Bagley, Deandre Jordan, Clint Capela, Ryan Anderson ect.

You can always improve the effectiveness of these ball handling creators for example by surounding them with shooters and creating good offensive sets but if you want anything significant offensively from finishers, you need to cater for them very heavily and that happens by defense focusing on players like Fox or Luka and that opening opportunities for finishers.

Ya if anything it’s Bagley who needs to be catered not the guy who can play 2-4, create, and is an elite shooter.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The thing about what people often mix with potential is the 'absolute ceiling' of a player. In reality potential is really about how good this player can develope realisticly and how probable that outcome is.

Going for the guy with the absolute highest ceiling imo is the wrong way to look at things. You want the guy who has a high realistic chance becoming a very good player. Thats potential.

Also your "potential" or ceiling is limited a lot if you are a certain type of player and/or play a certain type of role. If you have a realistically high chance of becoming a very good player playing the most valuable position in the whole game, your potential is great. If you have a realistically high chance of becoming a very good player playing a less important role, then that limits your "potential" and potential value

It was my belief entering the draft that Doncic had the potential to be extremely good at many roles and was an extremely valuable piece in building a team in the modern NBA.

On the flip, I thought Bagley had the potential to be elite at a very narrow role but was also in danger of being an empty points guy on a bad team. The thing is, I didn't think we had the right pieces to unlock that, but after seeing Fox this year, I think we are exactly the right team to unlock his potential. Even WCS who has frustrated us for 3 years looks dazzling in the Fox lead attack.

And while I don't think that Doncic and Fox couldn't play together, I think that you would sacrifice pieces of what makes each special to do so. So we grabbed the guy that plays and builds on our strengths rather than having a jack of all trades lineup.

Somewhat interesting side note: I recently did my Strengths Finder test and one of my top 5 was Maximizer, which would sum up my last paragraph.

 

[Dime Dropper]

It was my belief entering the draft that Doncic had the potential to be extremely good at many roles and was an extremely valuable piece in building a team in the modern NBA.

On the flip, I thought Bagley had the potential to be elite at a very narrow role but was also in danger of being an empty points guy on a bad team. The thing is, I didn't think we had the right pieces to unlock that, but after seeing Fox this year, I think we are exactly the right team to unlock his potential. Even WCS who has frustrated us for 3 years looks dazzling in the Fox lead attack.

And while I don't think that Doncic and Fox couldn't play together, I think that you would sacrifice pieces of what makes each special to do so. So we grabbed the guy that plays and builds on our strengths rather than having a jack of all trades lineup.

Somewhat interesting side note: I recently did my Strengths Finder test and one of my top 5 was Maximizer, which would sum up my last paragraph.

Hey dude, the last thing I want you to think is that you're being attacked from all angles. It sure looks that way from the last page or so. I don't think your pre-draft analysis was far off at all. I think this post is pretty spot on and I've always enjoyed your posts.

Just a reminder because things can get pretty heated even when we're having a good season. We all want the same results for our guys.

 

[rainmaker]

Kings coach Dave Joerger on Luka Doncic: "Perhaps there was an idea that there was a ceiling on him. I don't see it, unfortunately for us. But he's great for them and he's great for our league."


Dave, unfortunate you see what many don't.

 

[Joshoua]

Kings coach Dave Joerger on Luka Doncic: "Perhaps there was an idea that there was a ceiling on him. I don't see it, unfortunately for us. But he's great for them and he's great for our league."


Dave, unfortunate you see what many don't.

https://twitter.com/statuses/1074449191894769664

https://twitter.com/statuses/1074459665344323584

Was just gonna post this wow I think if Joerger what’d draft input Luka/Fox would be running circles around the league

 

[Kingsfan23]

Someone needs to be held accountable

Fox was a consensus pick, Buddy was part of a trade where we had a large trade chip.

That doesn’t excuse this

 

[Kingsfan23]

With that said, slight goofball move from Joerger to put it like that. We have Marvin now, no need to discourage him or pee him off as eventually he will be a FA

 

[burekijogurt]

Someone needs to be held accountable

I know what we can do, lets fire the guy who took only 3 years to build the first Kings team to truly compete for the playoffs in 11 years. That sounds like a winning move to me.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I know what we can do, lets fire the guy who took only 3 years to build the first Kings team to truly compete for the playoffs in 11 years. That sounds like a winning move to me.

Took no acumen. He bundled Cousins trade and got panned for return (even as I’m Buddy’s number 1 fan, lost a pick in that deal), traded Collins for Giles/Jackson after a bad first several years. He was trying to give max money to LaVine this summer who would’ve thwarted our backcourt development

Not taking Luka will haunt the team for a decade

He’s done nothing but pick a consensus player and hire a good coach. Bogdan is good too, but doesn’t make up for his resume

I want a vetted mind in there

 

[Hansel]

I won't discuss about him anymore.
Anyone know how much an NBA team invests on scouting, on average?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Took no acumen. He bundled Cousins trade and got panned for return (even as I’m Buddy’s number 1 fan, lost a pick in that deal), traded Collins for Giles/Jackson after a bad first several years. He was trying to give max money to LaVine this summer who would’ve thwarted our backcourt development

Not taking Luka will haunt the team for a decade

He’s done nothing but pick a consensus player and hire a good coach. Bogdan is good too, but doesn’t make up for his resume

I want a vetted mind in there

Wow, you’re really something. I’m not saying Vlade is the brightest mind in the league and probably not even a“top flight” gm in the league but to continually call for him to be “held accountable” aka be fired, for not picking Luka is really something. This team is the most improved team in the league, has one of the most talented young rosters in the league and has the most cap flexibility in the league and he’s done this in what 2.5 years? And you want to fire him? Ok chief.

 

[Joshoua]

I won't discuss about him anymore.
Anyone know how much an NBA team invests on scouting, on average?

Are they moving the goal post too much for you

 

[VF21]

Took no acumen. He bundled Cousins trade and got panned for return (even as I’m Buddy’s number 1 fan, lost a pick in that deal), traded Collins for Giles/Jackson after a bad first several years. He was trying to give max money to LaVine this summer who would’ve thwarted our backcourt development

Not taking Luka will haunt the team for a decade

He’s done nothing but pick a consensus player and hire a good coach. Bogdan is good too, but doesn’t make up for his resume

I want a vetted mind in there

OMG. You're just delusional and I don't care if that is personal. I truly believe you make comments like this just to stir the pot. You know what that makes you? A troll. And not a very good one at that.

This isn't the BASH VLADE thread. Maybe you need to check over at RealGM.

 

[VF21]

With that said, slight goofball move from Joerger to put it like that. We have Marvin now, no need to discourage him or pee him off as eventually he will be a FA

Joerger was being diplomatic with a comment about a young player right before the Kings played his team. What did you think he'd say? Your dislike of Joerger and Vlade is pathological. Do you not see what's happening to the Kings? How the excitement is back? Your agenda is puzzling to say the least.

 

[Kingsfan23]

OMG. You're just delusional and I don't care if that is personal. I truly believe you make comments like this just to stir the pot. You know what that makes you? A troll. And not a very good one at that.

This isn't the BASH VLADE thread. Maybe you need to check over at RealGM.

The fact that you can’t discuss these matters without getting personal makes you classless and the complaint will be registered

He needs to be fired for not being a good GM IMO, and not taking Luka at this point looks unforgivable under any circumstances

This isn’t the board for you to go around throwing out negativity towards Vlade. Not your board. There will be a lot of it with this Luka situation

 

[Kingsfan23]

Wow, you’re really something. I’m not saying Vlade is the brightest mind in the league and probably not even a“top flight” gm in the league but to continually call for him to be “held accountable” aka be fired, for not picking Luka is really something. This team is the most improved team in the league, has one of the most talented young rosters in the league and has the most cap flexibility in the league and he’s done this in what 2.5 years? And you want to fire him? Ok chief.

So, which part of it to give Vlade specific credit to

Taking Fox, who was the consensus at that point, who the entire fanbase wanted

Hield was part of the Cousins trade that was bundled

I’ll give him some for Joerger, who I think is instrumental.

But not seeing where his acumen is to be given the credit

I can only see years of moves I’ve disagreed with. IMO keep Joerger but I’d like a professional mind as head FO

 

[LoungeLizard]

Things that impressed me about Luka:

1. The game looks slow to him, you can tell the speed of NBA doesn’t phase him
2. Step back J. Very impressive. Hit one in the first half in the corner that I thought there was no way he was going to make and it was clean, barely hit the rim.
3. Playmaking. With Barea and DSJ out, I imagine he had the ball in his hands a lot more than usual. He created a lot of open looks for his teammates.

I thought he got a few calls tonight that rookies don’t usually get, already getting a little star treatment?

Would I love to have seen Luka as a King? Sure, he’s a special talent. Do I lament the fact we picked Bagley? No. He’s also a special talent, just not Lukas level.....yet. I believe they will both have long careers in the league and be stars for their respective teams.

I definitely think the “Luka crowd” (as many of you all have been called) would have a lot more followers if Fox didn’t turn into a bonafide Star this year. I may have been one of them. For now I will continue to hope and expect the Kings to develop into an elite team over the next two years as Bagley reaches his potential along side our Superstar Fox.

 

[burekijogurt]

The fact that you can’t discuss these matters without getting personal makes you classless and the complaint will be registered

He needs to be fired for not being a good GM IMO, and not taking Luka at this point looks unforgivable under any circumstances

This isn’t the board for you to go around throwing out negativity towards Vlade. Not your board. There will be a lot of it with this Luka situation

Being a good GM is creating a good team, a good product, showing results. Vlade has certainly done that in his 3 years of tenure in my opinion.

You seem to think that being a good GM is making moves which you approve of and somehow believe would manifest themselves in better results. And you are not questioning whether your judgement of these moves and their manifestations on the final product is correct, you are somehow certain of it. You are certain Vlade is making bad moves (for which he needs to be fired) despite the final product. My only guess is that you believe that this "Vetted" supermind would have had the Kings in the playoffs the 2nd year of his/her tenure?

 

[rainmaker]

Funny thing is everyone in here who says Luka has a low ceiling disagrees with the same coach they hold on a pedestal.

If Joerger was a poster people would be trying to silence him.

 

[burekijogurt]

So, which part of it to give Vlade specific credit to

....

I can only see years of moves I’ve disagreed with.

and yet the result of 3 years of moves you disagree with is the team with the best future potential we've had in 10 years. maybe YOU would be a bad GM?

 

[LoungeLizard]

So, which part of it to give Vlade specific credit to

Taking Fox, who was the consensus at that point, who the entire fanbase wanted

Hield was part of the Cousins trade that was bundled

I’ll give him some for Joerger, who I think is instrumental.

But not seeing where his acumen is to be given the credit

I can only see years of moves I’ve disagreed with. IMO keep Joerger but I’d like a professional mind as head FO

Regardless of what you think of his moves individually you have to examine the result as a whole. Are we a young team? Yes Are we talented? Yes Do we have cap flexibility? Yes Does the team have an identity? Yes Is the coach reaching the players? Yes. Are we winning? Yes Are we a finished product? I don’t think so, not yet. I do believe the team as constructed right now with two more years of seasoning and development together could become an elite team.

So basically you think Vlade stumbled and lucked his way into taking a perennial lottery team franchise 10 years running and turned the whole thing around? If Vlade has that much luck I need him to pick some numbers for me.

 

[Kingsfan23]

and yet the result of 3 years of moves you disagree with is the team with the best future potential we've had in 10 years. maybe YOU would be a bad GM?

The record may be subjective, but
Your boy may have cost the team dearly by not picking a potential top 5 player. We will see what the ownership thinks

 

[dude12]

The fact that you can’t discuss these matters without getting personal makes you classless and the complaint will be registered

He needs to be fired for not being a good GM IMO, and not taking Luka at this point looks unforgivable under any circumstances

This isn’t the board for you to go around throwing out negativity towards Vlade. Not your board. There will be a lot of it with this Luka situation

The Kings are an up and coming team. The rookie they picked is also going to be a star. You can’t be serious.

 

[burekijogurt]

The record may be subjective, but
Your boy may have cost the team dearly by not picking a potential top 5 player. We will see what the ownership thinks

So if you were the owner, you would right now fire Vlade Divac. In my opinion that would be a rash and detrimental move.

 

[burekijogurt]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1074449191894769664

https://twitter.com/statuses/1074459665344323584

Was just gonna post this wow I think if Joerger what’d draft input Luka/Fox would be running circles around the league

When Joerger says "unfortunately for us" does he mean "us the team that has to face him" or "us the team that had number 2 pick and did not pick him"?

 

[VF21]

The record may be subjective, but
Your boy may have cost the team dearly by not picking a potential top 5 player. We will see what the ownership thinks

Attendance is up. Revenue is up across the board. The Kings are garnering respect from all over the league. The national media is actually talking about the Kings with respect instead of disdain. I think it's pretty obvious what ownership thinks, as evidenced by the grin on Vivek's face at Kings games. But don't let facts stand in your way.

 

[VF21]

When Joerger says "unfortunately for us" does he mean "us the team that has to face him" or "us the team that had number 2 pick and did not pick him"?

Being discussed in the Williams Joerger drama thread in the Kings Rap forum.

 

[Kingsfan23]

So if you were the owner, you would right now fire Vlade Divac. In my opinion that would be a rash and detrimental move.

I think popular opinion was already against Vlade, hence hopping onto Google and searching NBA front office rankings prior to this situation. But why trust the mind that may have flubbed such a big decision going forward? Or how to trust in the future if it looks this was with Luka?