Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)
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I'd like to get clarification from coach on this, but I doubt anyone will ask. I took this "unfortunately" as being because we are playing against him tonight, not as in he wanted Luka as our draft pick. Coach doesn't throw shade at our team or FO like that. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Chemistry is a fickle thing. Everybody loves to treat NBA rosters like the league is a video game. “Team X is good this year!! Imagine how good they would be if they added Player Y!!” As if it’s that simple. Trevor Ariza and Luc Mbah a Moute departed the Rockets in the offseason, and they’ve completely imploded. Nobody saw that coming. Sometimes you just need the right combination of guys.
You put Luka in a Kings uni and he’s forced to trade off playmaking duties with Fox. He basically becomes Bogdan Bogdanovic in that scenario, thus negating what makes him so special as a primary ballhandler (particularly since Fox isn't as well-equipped to spend a significant portion of his time off-ball). And since Bogdan Bogdanovic is already in a Kings uni, it’s hardly a mental stretch to understand why the Kings drafted Bagley.
Chemistry. Fit. Balance. These things matter to winning teams. Could Luka have fit in on this team as presently-constructed? Sure. Is it the best use of his talent to squeeze his playmaking skills into the starting unit alongside Fox’s? Probably not.
You put Luka in a Kings uni and he’s forced to trade off playmaking duties with Fox. He basically becomes Bogdan Bogdanovic in that scenario, thus negating what makes him so special as a primary ballhandler (particularly since Fox isn't as well-equipped to spend a significant portion of his time off-ball). And since Bogdan Bogdanovic is already in a Kings uni, it’s hardly a mental stretch to understand why the Kings drafted Bagley.
Chemistry. Fit. Balance. These things matter to winning teams. Could Luka have fit in on this team as presently-constructed? Sure. Is it the best use of his talent to squeeze his playmaking skills into the starting unit alongside Fox’s? Probably not.
I agree why he was responding. I don't really care what arguments have been made for or against Luka. He isn't a King, Bagley is, and that is all that matters now.
The making a molehill comment is in regards to those thinking the coach is throwing shade at the FO about Bagley, which would be totally out of character for the coach and with no rational basis other than in a few poster's melons. Coach has never said anything about not being happy with the Bagley pick or wanting Luka instead. And now, all of a sudden, he's supposed to be talking smack about the pick? Huh?
The making a molehill comment is in regards to those thinking the coach is throwing shade at the FO about Bagley, which would be totally out of character for the coach and with no rational basis other than in a few poster's melons. Coach has never said anything about not being happy with the Bagley pick or wanting Luka instead. And now, all of a sudden, he's supposed to be talking smack about the pick? Huh?
Tell that to all the best teams in the league that have multiple stars, championships and perennial playoff berths.
Teams don't necessarily play their best basketball when their best player reaches his maximum statistical output. Stacking multiple #1 options on the team is how almost all the best teams have been built. Durant/Steph, Lebron/Kyrie, Harden/Paul. Even Wall/Beal, Lowry/DeRozan etc to a lesser extent. The talents of these players all conflict with each other but it makes the team better overall because it makes for max coverage over the course of a game and it gives the team multiple options every time down the court.
If two players can shoot and pass the ball, you don't pass up on one of them because it affects the stats of the first player. You pick them both because it means maximum TEAM stats...which is more important.
Teams don't necessarily play their best basketball when their best player reaches his maximum statistical output. Stacking multiple #1 options on the team is how almost all the best teams have been built. Durant/Steph, Lebron/Kyrie, Harden/Paul. Even Wall/Beal, Lowry/DeRozan etc to a lesser extent. The talents of these players all conflict with each other but it makes the team better overall because it makes for max coverage over the course of a game and it gives the team multiple options every time down the court.
If two players can shoot and pass the ball, you don't pass up on one of them because it affects the stats of the first player. You pick them both because it means maximum TEAM stats...which is more important.
The difference is that I don’t think Luka is going to be in the same class as some of those names you mentioned. My opinion may be in the minority, but I think Dallas is headed for a fall in the standings, and I think Luka’s going to be a high usage/big stats/bad team kinda player for several years. I’ve said it before, but many of the advanced metrics suggest a player who’s closer to rookie Tyreke Evans than rookie James Harden.
He’s got an undeniable “it” factor. I understand why so many wish the Kings drafted him. But he’s not likely to be a plus on the defensive end anytime soon. His assist to turnover ratio is unnerving for a primary ballhandler. His first step is slow. He struggles to get by NBA wing defenders. He doesn’t get to the rim/free throw line at anywhere near the rate of a lotta the guys you listed during their respective rookie seasons. I just don’t see the “generational” talent that lots of other people see. Don’t get me wrong; he’s damn good already. He could be special. And I certainly see all-star berths in his future, but Bagley’s likely got that kind of future, as well.
He’s got an undeniable “it” factor. I understand why so many wish the Kings drafted him. But he’s not likely to be a plus on the defensive end anytime soon. His assist to turnover ratio is unnerving for a primary ballhandler. His first step is slow. He struggles to get by NBA wing defenders. He doesn’t get to the rim/free throw line at anywhere near the rate of a lotta the guys you listed during their respective rookie seasons. I just don’t see the “generational” talent that lots of other people see. Don’t get me wrong; he’s damn good already. He could be special. And I certainly see all-star berths in his future, but Bagley’s likely got that kind of future, as well.
The Kings have something working that involves all of their team.....it’s not a Harden or CP3 iso and then everyone go spot up except maybe Capela.
We are more like the Spurs with ball movement and contributions across the board while the main guys are getting theirs. The Mavs are like the Rockets. It appears to be iso heavy for Doncic and let him create. I personally think the Mavs may be doing the kid a disservice but I haven’t watched him enough.
But back to my point, Spurs and Rockets. Completely different ways to run a team.
We are more like the Spurs with ball movement and contributions across the board while the main guys are getting theirs. The Mavs are like the Rockets. It appears to be iso heavy for Doncic and let him create. I personally think the Mavs may be doing the kid a disservice but I haven’t watched him enough.
But back to my point, Spurs and Rockets. Completely different ways to run a team.
That's a nice straw man you're constructing there. Passing on Luka did not occur in a vacuum. The Kings didn't say no to Doncic only to walk away with nothing. They selected Marvin Bagley in the draft instead. So if the choice you're offering is between James Harden and a comparable big name talent like, say, Anthony Davis, then yes, I absolutely say no to Harden. I take Davis instead, because he fits better with our core pieces.
My problem with the way many talk about Doncic in this thread is the notion that there is somehow a massive gulf between Doncic's talent level and Bagley's talent level. Personally, I just don't see what they're seeing. I don't see a "generational" talent in Luka Doncic. Yet. There are huge gaps in Luka's game currently, just like there are huge gaps in Marvin's game currently. Either of them could be hampered by those gaps. Both of them could be hampered by those gaps. Either of them could be headed for stardom. Both of them could be headed for stardom.
Simply put, Doncic is not a sure thing. There is no combination of advanced metrics that we could throw together that illustrate how Doncic is a "generational" talent, a future hall of famer. Yes, the raw stats are impressive, but they come by way of extraordinarily high usage, and more to the point, we should be wary of all raw stats for every player in the 2018-2019 season. The freedom of movement rules and the quickening pace of the game are juicing the counting stats league-wide. It's as if steroids have come to the NBA. Per game numbers are on the rise. Guys are scoring 50 with regularity. It doesn't tell us much about what's happening on the floor.
It's taken me years to get on board with advanced metrics, but I've finally come around in the last few seasons. And there's never been a more important time to rely on advanced metrics to explain what's actually happening on an NBA court because of how deceptive the raw stats are becoming in the modern NBA. The names that get used as comparison points to Doncic are not yet instructive names to be offering. Compare the metrics of Doncic's rookie season so far to Lebron's, to Durant's, to Harden's, hell, compare it to Tyreke's. You'll see a defensively-deficient turnover machine who is shooting very well from outside, but struggles to get to the rim and isn't exactly having a very big impact on winning (especially when you take the time to examine Dallas' bench, from which much of their positive production is coming as a team).
Some of you act as if the Kings passed on a Lebron James-level talent when they passed on Luka, and that heads should roll, and that front office executives should be fired. Such a comparison is just not there. I'm not even convinced that the Kings passed on a James Harden-level talent yet. Harden could get to the rim at will as early as his rookie season.
All of this is to say, once again, that I think Luka Doncic is already very good today. But will he be great tomorrow? That's a question that is very much up for debate, despite what some of you are choosing to believe. And because it's up for debate, because it's not yet clear that Doncic is some godsend to the league, a generational talent the likes of which the NBA has never seen, I don't see how it's some massive error that the Kings' front office chose to draft Marvin Bagley, a young player who clearly has a lot of upside and an unstoppable motor to match.
My problem with the way many talk about Doncic in this thread is the notion that there is somehow a massive gulf between Doncic's talent level and Bagley's talent level. Personally, I just don't see what they're seeing. I don't see a "generational" talent in Luka Doncic. Yet. There are huge gaps in Luka's game currently, just like there are huge gaps in Marvin's game currently. Either of them could be hampered by those gaps. Both of them could be hampered by those gaps. Either of them could be headed for stardom. Both of them could be headed for stardom.
Simply put, Doncic is not a sure thing. There is no combination of advanced metrics that we could throw together that illustrate how Doncic is a "generational" talent, a future hall of famer. Yes, the raw stats are impressive, but they come by way of extraordinarily high usage, and more to the point, we should be wary of all raw stats for every player in the 2018-2019 season. The freedom of movement rules and the quickening pace of the game are juicing the counting stats league-wide. It's as if steroids have come to the NBA. Per game numbers are on the rise. Guys are scoring 50 with regularity. It doesn't tell us much about what's happening on the floor.
It's taken me years to get on board with advanced metrics, but I've finally come around in the last few seasons. And there's never been a more important time to rely on advanced metrics to explain what's actually happening on an NBA court because of how deceptive the raw stats are becoming in the modern NBA. The names that get used as comparison points to Doncic are not yet instructive names to be offering. Compare the metrics of Doncic's rookie season so far to Lebron's, to Durant's, to Harden's, hell, compare it to Tyreke's. You'll see a defensively-deficient turnover machine who is shooting very well from outside, but struggles to get to the rim and isn't exactly having a very big impact on winning (especially when you take the time to examine Dallas' bench, from which much of their positive production is coming as a team).
Some of you act as if the Kings passed on a Lebron James-level talent when they passed on Luka, and that heads should roll, and that front office executives should be fired. Such a comparison is just not there. I'm not even convinced that the Kings passed on a James Harden-level talent yet. Harden could get to the rim at will as early as his rookie season.
All of this is to say, once again, that I think Luka Doncic is already very good today. But will he be great tomorrow? That's a question that is very much up for debate, despite what some of you are choosing to believe. And because it's up for debate, because it's not yet clear that Doncic is some godsend to the league, a generational talent the likes of which the NBA has never seen, I don't see how it's some massive error that the Kings' front office chose to draft Marvin Bagley, a young player who clearly has a lot of upside and an unstoppable motor to match.
Probably the best breakdown I’ve read yet. I’m so,what baffled by the pedestal that Doncic has been put on. Talented? Yes. Generational? Not right now. His conditioning or lack of is fairly poor for an NBA player. I don’t recall a high level talent coming into the league with so much hype but is this poorly conditioned. The good thing is that is absolutely something he can control. I’m worried that Dallas is setting the kid up to fail.....kind of like the Tyreke Evans rookie year. It became about Tyreke and the team became secondary. It would be terrible for Dallas to go down the same path.
I meant Marvin can and will shake it off, because Marvin is not a Luka fanboy looking to distort benign compliments the coach pays the opponent. No Marvin is arguably the best NCAA talent in the draft - certainly in the convo - and he is only in Luka's shadow for a certain segment of the Kings fan base who are crazy.
You think players get butthurt when their coach says about an opponent "fill-in-the-blank is a heck of a player who really seems to have a bright future in the league. He's a handful to game plan against and I'm glad we only have to play him 2/4 times. Oh boy is he good".
Because Joerger says that stuff about players all the time man. Joerger's comments about Luka are only notable for people who are on a sidetracked reality.
You think players get butthurt when their coach says about an opponent "fill-in-the-blank is a heck of a player who really seems to have a bright future in the league. He's a handful to game plan against and I'm glad we only have to play him 2/4 times. Oh boy is he good".
Because Joerger says that stuff about players all the time man. Joerger's comments about Luka are only notable for people who are on a sidetracked reality.
It might but .....
28 PTS, 6 REBS, and 9 Assists on 50% shooting speaks for itself.
He had to handle the ball last night more than normal and too much (once they put Fox on him) because both of Dallas' top two PG's were out.
Some of you guys are reaching too hard to try and insinuate that Luka sucks and/or that he is not going to get any better. I don't know how you can watch Luka play as a 19 year old with his poise and clutch ability and not be extremely impressed.
The Tyreke Evans comparisons are getting old. Tyreke didn't have Luka's basketball IQ and ability to run an offense. Those are things that you can't teach for the most part. Doncic may not have special athletic ability but he does have rare basketball acumen and that will take him far.
Does that mean the Kings made the wrong pick? No not necessarily. Time will tell. I do know one thing if Luka were on the Kings and the situations were reversed almost everybody here would be going nuts for him.
28 PTS, 6 REBS, and 9 Assists on 50% shooting speaks for itself.
He had to handle the ball last night more than normal and too much (once they put Fox on him) because both of Dallas' top two PG's were out.
Some of you guys are reaching too hard to try and insinuate that Luka sucks and/or that he is not going to get any better. I don't know how you can watch Luka play as a 19 year old with his poise and clutch ability and not be extremely impressed.
The Tyreke Evans comparisons are getting old. Tyreke didn't have Luka's basketball IQ and ability to run an offense. Those are things that you can't teach for the most part. Doncic may not have special athletic ability but he does have rare basketball acumen and that will take him far.
Does that mean the Kings made the wrong pick? No not necessarily. Time will tell. I do know one thing if Luka were on the Kings and the situations were reversed almost everybody here would be going nuts for him.
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