Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)
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Seems like a variation of the "greener grass" fallacy: "Oh, those people over there don't root for my team. Therefore, their opinions about the players on my team must be objective!" I'm going into my second full season of not being a Kings fan, and I don't know anyone here who would classify my opinions about the Kings as "objective."
Then there's that whole, "Well, these Kings fans at this other website co-sign what I believe in, so obviously their takes are fair and balanced! Not like you homers!"-thing that happened in the follow-up post. The only thing missing was a "Harrumph!"
Then there's that whole, "Well, these Kings fans at this other website co-sign what I believe in, so obviously their takes are fair and balanced! Not like you homers!"-thing that happened in the follow-up post. The only thing missing was a "Harrumph!"
The fallacy is in assuming, just because they're not Kings homers, that they're objective. No stake in the game? No stake in the Kings, maybe: it doesn't necessarily follow that they don't have any stake in Doncic turning out better than Bagley. The only thing that proves is that their interest doesn't revolve around whether the Kings are successful or not; they still could be biased, we don't know.
Ask hockey fans?
Non-facetious answer: you really can't get an unbiased sample about the NBA from people who watch the NBA. And, real talk, you can't really get an unbiased sample about the NBA from people who don't watch the NBA, either. I mean, sure, you can get a random sample easily enough, but 'random' and 'objective' are not synonyms. My objection has more to do with your use of RealGM as an example of a source of "objective" opinions about the Kings, as if:
Looking for objectivity, in the aggregate, on an internet message board borders on Quixotic. The best you can hope for is to engage people one-on-one, and do the message board equivalent of checking their timeline for receipts. The best gauge of whether someone is objective about their opinions is probably to see how they conduct themselves when they get it right, and how they conduct themselves when they get it wrong.
Non-facetious answer: you really can't get an unbiased sample about the NBA from people who watch the NBA. And, real talk, you can't really get an unbiased sample about the NBA from people who don't watch the NBA, either. I mean, sure, you can get a random sample easily enough, but 'random' and 'objective' are not synonyms. My objection has more to do with your use of RealGM as an example of a source of "objective" opinions about the Kings, as if:
- Objectivity is the opposite of homerism
- Your baseline for objectivity is "not a Kings fan"
- RealGM is inherently more objective than other message boards.
Looking for objectivity, in the aggregate, on an internet message board borders on Quixotic. The best you can hope for is to engage people one-on-one, and do the message board equivalent of checking their timeline for receipts. The best gauge of whether someone is objective about their opinions is probably to see how they conduct themselves when they get it right, and how they conduct themselves when they get it wrong.
About the only thing we can do on here is put emphasis on our own opinions.
All I'm going to say is there are two types of posters here. There are the people who like talking about the Kings and there are the people who like talking about the people who like talking about the Kings. Lets talk Kings.
All I'm going to say is there are two types of posters here. There are the people who like talking about the Kings and there are the people who like talking about the people who like talking about the Kings. Lets talk Kings.
Well, that's weird. I mean, I haven't read the whole thread, but a perusal through the last four pages worth of posts, which account for all the posts made in this calendar month, indicates that the only poster in the thread who's mentioned another KingsFans.com poster is ( :: checks notes :: ) @ESP47. So, I guess at least most people can avoid talking about other KingsFans posters.
LOL! Because if there's anybody who's posting to "get likes," it's definitely not the guy who takes unprovoked cheap shots at the mods. </s>
LOL! Because if there's anybody who's posting to "get likes," it's definitely not the guy who takes unprovoked cheap shots at the mods. </s>
even though I wanted Luka for this team I have not expressed my dissapointment at the decision out of support for Bagley who I think will become a very good player. However, given the lack of bbiq on our team, and the loads of it on display in the game i am watching I am going to allow myself this one transgresion: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
The more and more I watch how the Mavs use Luka, the more and more I think that he's ultimately a supercharged Hedo-style point forward. I'm not sure he would have really been able to help our SF woes. He was having trouble outrunning Cody Zeller at times today.
Also Dallas's color commentating team spent the entire game talking about them sneaking into the 7th/8th seed for some reason which I don't really see being a possibility so I may have spent the entire game grinding my teeth.
Also Dallas's color commentating team spent the entire game talking about them sneaking into the 7th/8th seed for some reason which I don't really see being a possibility so I may have spent the entire game grinding my teeth.
No. The point of “RealGM” is to illustrate popular opinion is down on Bagley, and agrees with his skeptics, despite sentiment on here (prior to last two games where he’s shown life). If you know of some other way to get a handle on popular thought, please let us know.
RealGM is the most popular basketball forum on the internet, so that’s the place many would think to get public opinion
RealGM is the most popular basketball forum on the internet, so that’s the place many would think to get public opinion
Then go post on RealGM. This continual blather is just that ... blather, especially in a thread devoted to one NBA player. THIS THREAD isn't about Bagley. What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?
"If you know of some other way to get a handle on popular thought, please let us know"? Exactly who is this "US" of whom you speak? Thus far, you're the ONLY ONE playing this tune ad nauseum.
"If you know of some other way to get a handle on popular thought, please let us know"? Exactly who is this "US" of whom you speak? Thus far, you're the ONLY ONE playing this tune ad nauseum.
The discussion will involve whatever it needs to if it doesn’t break the forums rules.
I will continue to post that public opinion agrees with me on any issue I think it does and be willing to put the issue to test with anyone if called into question
Luka was who we passed on to select Marvin so it will naturally be a link for many on this board
I will continue to post that public opinion agrees with me on any issue I think it does and be willing to put the issue to test with anyone if called into question
Luka was who we passed on to select Marvin so it will naturally be a link for many on this board
Thank you for identifying for us so clearly why you don't get it. The national media will only pay attention to the Kings when the Kings do something worth noting. For a lot of the national media, they just go with the usual '10 years of incompetence from this lousy team' theme. The 'my team may be bad but at least they're better than the Kings' story is a very popular one in the sports world, and then of course there are those who are just looking for something to ridicule.
The fact is that anything that happened while the Maloofs owned the team is completely irrelevant. They ran out of money and tried to run the team on the cheap, and we all saw how well that didn't go. Then, it took the new owner a while to learn to stand back and let the basketball people run that part of the business. It looks to many of us like there's real cause for optimism now. They certainly have a lot to prove, but it looks they're beginning to get it right.
Most of the people in the public opinion you're citing base their knowledge of the Kings on the national story, so they don't know what's going on NOW. Thus, their opinion is uninformed and completely irrelevant. The majority of the people at draft night booed when the Kings chose Peja. Do you remember who they wanted the Kings to draft instead? Believe it or not, the Kings staff knew more than the general public. At one time most people thought the earth was flat -- did that make them right?
So the fact that a majority wanted the Kings to take Doncic is completely irrelevant. I've said before that if it were up to me, I would have chosen Doncic. The difference is that I'm willing to admit that the Kings staff might know more than I do, and wait and see how things develop. Anyone who thinks the 'who's better, Doncic or Bagley' question has already been decided doesn't know enough about basketball to contribute anything useful to this forum.
So we're left with the fact that you keep making the same argument over and over again, and you're claiming a whole horde of people supporting your position. Maybe on realgm but not here. And if you think people on realgm know more about the Kings, why are you here? If you don't have anything new to say, why waste our time? You're not convincing anyone.
The fact is that anything that happened while the Maloofs owned the team is completely irrelevant. They ran out of money and tried to run the team on the cheap, and we all saw how well that didn't go. Then, it took the new owner a while to learn to stand back and let the basketball people run that part of the business. It looks to many of us like there's real cause for optimism now. They certainly have a lot to prove, but it looks they're beginning to get it right.
Most of the people in the public opinion you're citing base their knowledge of the Kings on the national story, so they don't know what's going on NOW. Thus, their opinion is uninformed and completely irrelevant. The majority of the people at draft night booed when the Kings chose Peja. Do you remember who they wanted the Kings to draft instead? Believe it or not, the Kings staff knew more than the general public. At one time most people thought the earth was flat -- did that make them right?
So the fact that a majority wanted the Kings to take Doncic is completely irrelevant. I've said before that if it were up to me, I would have chosen Doncic. The difference is that I'm willing to admit that the Kings staff might know more than I do, and wait and see how things develop. Anyone who thinks the 'who's better, Doncic or Bagley' question has already been decided doesn't know enough about basketball to contribute anything useful to this forum.
So we're left with the fact that you keep making the same argument over and over again, and you're claiming a whole horde of people supporting your position. Maybe on realgm but not here. And if you think people on realgm know more about the Kings, why are you here? If you don't have anything new to say, why waste our time? You're not convincing anyone.
But asking a team of older guys to stay healthy is dubious at best and they inexplicably have a logjam at the PF/SF spot between Dirk, Luka, and Harrison Barnes. All their guards aside from Dennis Smith (and Brunson, who I wouldn't expect much from out of the gate) are older than dirt thanks to Yogi and Seth leaving in free agency. And Deandre hasn't really been a great defensive player in like three years.
Jordan/(Dirk?)/Powell/Mejri
Dirk/Barnes/Luka
Barnes/Luka/Finney-Smith
Wes/Harris
DSJ/Barrea/Brunson
Just doesn't exactly scream playoff team to me, even with the Wolves imploding on themselves.
GS
Houston
Utah
OKC
Portland
Denver
Lakers
New Orleans
Memphis
All probably have stronger cases for the playoffs than Dallas does at this point, even if Luka and DSJ come out of the gates playing like Lebron and Kyrie. Maybe in last year's division, sure.
Jordan/(Dirk?)/Powell/Mejri
Dirk/Barnes/Luka
Barnes/Luka/Finney-Smith
Wes/Harris
DSJ/Barrea/Brunson
Just doesn't exactly scream playoff team to me, even with the Wolves imploding on themselves.
GS
Houston
Utah
OKC
Portland
Denver
Lakers
New Orleans
Memphis
All probably have stronger cases for the playoffs than Dallas does at this point, even if Luka and DSJ come out of the gates playing like Lebron and Kyrie. Maybe in last year's division, sure.
Say what you want about Luka put regardless the guy is insanely entertaining to watch some of the crafty, nifty and quick thinking stuff he does is insane he will probably replace Manu in that regard who's combo off amazing natural instincts with high IQ was beyond freakish. The guy brings something different than what your use to seeing from "elite" prospects and that's always nice a bit of variety. I have been impressed by a lot of the rookies in preseason including Luka/Bagley(last game)/Bridges (Hornets)/Ayton/Sexton/Knox and that SGA looks like he was literally born to be a starting PG in the NBA looks like a 15 year vet.
There is nothing to get. Before the last two games, which this conversation took place, I thought Bagley unconvinced as a two pick to that point. I think random NBA fans along with media agreed with that assessment (and Luka has still looked better, but it won’t be as much an issue outside of Divac/FO for me if Marvin continues on the last two games of showing hope). I was (am) willing to prove that by cultivating a random, objective sample, and if you have another idea of getting to the objectivity of the issue between optimists and pessimists please state it. They IMO aren’t worried about Maloofs this or that, just how the prospects have looked. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, and I don’t really mind what you think.
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It's quite simple actually. You have to wait until they've played some NBA games. Mark your calendar for next summer, because then we'll have enough evidence to make meaningful comparisons of the two. I would think that would be the most important measurement of how well the team leadership is doing. Is Vlade as bad as some people are saying, or is he doing great?
Right now, we have the same information we had before the draft. Debating Bagley vs. Doncic NOW is just rehashing the same argument. Once the season starts, THEN there will be something to talk about.
One final question: Do you really think that claiming the national media or a majority on the Internet agrees with you is a way to bolster your argument on a Sacramento Kings fan forum?
Right now, we have the same information we had before the draft. Debating Bagley vs. Doncic NOW is just rehashing the same argument. Once the season starts, THEN there will be something to talk about.
One final question: Do you really think that claiming the national media or a majority on the Internet agrees with you is a way to bolster your argument on a Sacramento Kings fan forum?
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