Kings / Suns Game Thread
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It’s about Bagley. He needs to stop playing like a bust. We can’t afford it. I’ll live with a quality starter. If Luke turns out to be generational, I’ll want the FO fired of course, but I’ll accept Bagley just being a quality starter. As of now I’m doubting he will, so his play needs to increase, substantially
Everyone IMO should want the FO, who is already on unstable ground, fired for missing out on a generational player they were supposed to pick. Everyone should feel slighted by it (if Luka turns out)
The reason why half the game thread complains about Bagley in real time is he’s performing like a bust. If he performs at a level that we can feel good about him being a quality starter, there would not be a lot of, or any comments in real time on the game threads about him negatively
The reason why half the game thread complains about Bagley in real time is he’s performing like a bust. If he performs at a level that we can feel good about him being a quality starter, there would not be a lot of, or any comments in real time on the game threads about him negatively
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There is a difference between evaluating Bagley's in-game performance in the context of a game thread, and re-litigating the draft decision not to pick Doncic at every turn. I realize it's preseason, and this may be a fine line that shifts over the context of the year, but this thread crossed the line from the former to the latter. If this continues in each game thread, it will get old quickly, if it hasn't already. And I say this as someone who had Doncic above Bagley on my draft board.
There are maybe 2 people on this board pushing the Doncic agenda. If you don’t want to keep hearing their take just block them.
It’s obviously too early to decide if Bagley is a star or bust but it’s certainly fair to be critical of him when he doesn’t play well. Bagley was the 2nd overall pick, he’s going to be held to a different standards then a late round pick or 2nd rounder.
Bagley needs to prove why he was picked where he was picked, just like every other rookie will need to prove worthy of their draft position. Unfortunately when you’re picked 2nd the spotlight is a little brighter
It’s obviously too early to decide if Bagley is a star or bust but it’s certainly fair to be critical of him when he doesn’t play well. Bagley was the 2nd overall pick, he’s going to be held to a different standards then a late round pick or 2nd rounder.
Bagley needs to prove why he was picked where he was picked, just like every other rookie will need to prove worthy of their draft position. Unfortunately when you’re picked 2nd the spotlight is a little brighter
Ah, I knew my new avatar would draw out an "ignorant old fart" joke.
Yes. it's 2018, and there's lots of information available about all the players. Based on what we've seen of Bagley so far, he's a bust. I agree with you on that. The thing you are completely overlooking is that players can develop and get better. Surely I don't have to recite the litany of players who stunk at first and became great later.
Part of evaluating players when deciding who to draft is determining what their potential is, not just what they can do now. That, as you know, is not an exact science. TRob looked great at draft time, but turned to be a bust. I'm hoping that Bagley can develop into what they envision, and that they got it right this time. I agree with you that we haven't seen anything positive yet from Bagley. I'm obviously much more willing to give him some time to develop than you are. No argument there -- just a difference of opinion.
It's easy to sit at a keyboard and make grand pronouncements about what should have been done when you don't have to live with your decisions. In the real world you have to be more cautious. Yes, you can see footage of practices and interviews, so you're obviously well informed. The Kings staff sees a lot more than you do, and they've been around basketball teams all their lives. No one know yet whether Bagley will turn out to be a bust or not.
Oh, and the 'Everybody's prejudiced against me, while acting like a jerk ' thing -- I realize that's SOP on most of the Internet. Here, most of us are just doing the eyeroll.
Yes. it's 2018, and there's lots of information available about all the players. Based on what we've seen of Bagley so far, he's a bust. I agree with you on that. The thing you are completely overlooking is that players can develop and get better. Surely I don't have to recite the litany of players who stunk at first and became great later.
Part of evaluating players when deciding who to draft is determining what their potential is, not just what they can do now. That, as you know, is not an exact science. TRob looked great at draft time, but turned to be a bust. I'm hoping that Bagley can develop into what they envision, and that they got it right this time. I agree with you that we haven't seen anything positive yet from Bagley. I'm obviously much more willing to give him some time to develop than you are. No argument there -- just a difference of opinion.
It's easy to sit at a keyboard and make grand pronouncements about what should have been done when you don't have to live with your decisions. In the real world you have to be more cautious. Yes, you can see footage of practices and interviews, so you're obviously well informed. The Kings staff sees a lot more than you do, and they've been around basketball teams all their lives. No one know yet whether Bagley will turn out to be a bust or not.
Oh, and the 'Everybody's prejudiced against me, while acting like a jerk ' thing -- I realize that's SOP on most of the Internet. Here, most of us are just doing the eyeroll.
It's a fine line because if you say anything about him in the context of the game, everyone will just jump on you for jumping to conclusions after one game. If you say you didn't want to draft him in the first place, you're re-litigating the draft decisions all over again. It's difficult to even have an in depth conversation about it without everyone getting mad. Remember, 60% of the fans polled wanted Doncic so it should be of no surprise to hear his name talked about constantly. This isn't like when we drafted Jimmer and some people wanted Klay or Kawhi. This is 60% of the fans wanting one guy while the GM went another direction. It's going to be a tough pill to swallow if this doesn't all work out.
People always talk about how others are obsessed with instant gratification but that's not the case. The players that look good their rookie years are overwhelmingly more likely to become good players for their careers than the players who take a few years to develop. People always point to Tyreke vs. Steph or a guy like Michael Carter Williams. They point to outlier situations while ignoring the fact that you'd have one hell of a super team if you put all the other rookies of the year together on a team. It's not about instant gratification, it's about being able to picture what this whole situation might look like in the future and if the player is giving you almost nothing on the court, you can't see where the success is going to come from.
People always talk about how others are obsessed with instant gratification but that's not the case. The players that look good their rookie years are overwhelmingly more likely to become good players for their careers than the players who take a few years to develop. People always point to Tyreke vs. Steph or a guy like Michael Carter Williams. They point to outlier situations while ignoring the fact that you'd have one hell of a super team if you put all the other rookies of the year together on a team. It's not about instant gratification, it's about being able to picture what this whole situation might look like in the future and if the player is giving you almost nothing on the court, you can't see where the success is going to come from.
Mentioning its 2018 has nothing to do with your age, didnt even notice your avatar. Just about the amount of information we have acces to nowadays.
And yeah Bagley can improve or not but thats not the conversation. The conversation started long before the draft. The conversation isnt definitive. The conversation is about how the situation looked before the draft and how it looks at the moment. Doncic was the obvious choise and there were a lot of quality discussion about Doncic vs Bagley vs JJJ vs Bamba. Now since we passed on the most obvious choise, the conversation continues. It will and should continue throughout the season and the more games we play, the bigger the sample size is.
Trying to forbid the conversation because we need a couple of years to see where the prospects are at is not right. Might as well close the whole board during draft season. This is a forum and there will be discussions on numerous subjects where we are forced to predict and speculate since we cant see into the future. Bagley vs Doncic will be one of those.
And yet again, these Gm's doesnt deserve that type of benefit of the doubt just because they have seen couple of private workouts and "they've been around basketball teams all their lives.". As I said in a previous post, the average Kings fan has been drafting a lot better than Kings GM's for the past years. Even though these GM's and staff have been " around basketball teams all their lives.". You have so much information available that you can form an educated opinion yourself and if it differs from our Gm, then so be it and discuss about it.
And yeah Bagley can improve or not but thats not the conversation. The conversation started long before the draft. The conversation isnt definitive. The conversation is about how the situation looked before the draft and how it looks at the moment. Doncic was the obvious choise and there were a lot of quality discussion about Doncic vs Bagley vs JJJ vs Bamba. Now since we passed on the most obvious choise, the conversation continues. It will and should continue throughout the season and the more games we play, the bigger the sample size is.
Trying to forbid the conversation because we need a couple of years to see where the prospects are at is not right. Might as well close the whole board during draft season. This is a forum and there will be discussions on numerous subjects where we are forced to predict and speculate since we cant see into the future. Bagley vs Doncic will be one of those.
And yet again, these Gm's doesnt deserve that type of benefit of the doubt just because they have seen couple of private workouts and "they've been around basketball teams all their lives.". As I said in a previous post, the average Kings fan has been drafting a lot better than Kings GM's for the past years. Even though these GM's and staff have been " around basketball teams all their lives.". You have so much information available that you can form an educated opinion yourself and if it differs from our Gm, then so be it and discuss about it.
I’m not sure the information they had was objective though, in terms of just straight picking the better talent, which could be an issue.
Fit was greatly weighed IMO. In terms of who would make the team better now, and in terms of who fit the running style they are trying to implement and who fit off ball with some of the more ball dominant players on the current Kings team. It could also be argued Vlade/Joerger we’re under pressure to win now to keep jobs, and they needed the more seamless fit.
So, bias to certain types of players may have played a role than straight attaining the best talent, which could be an arguable equation to some
Fit was greatly weighed IMO. In terms of who would make the team better now, and in terms of who fit the running style they are trying to implement and who fit off ball with some of the more ball dominant players on the current Kings team. It could also be argued Vlade/Joerger we’re under pressure to win now to keep jobs, and they needed the more seamless fit.
So, bias to certain types of players may have played a role than straight attaining the best talent, which could be an arguable equation to some
All that tells me is that Kings might join the long list of teams that made the wrong pick at #2. In almost all those cases there were better players(stars and even superstars) on the board. To just give them a pass because "hey we're not the only ones who have lived this" is weak and part of the reason the franchise is where it is. Fans should ask more than what they are being given.
At this point I just assume our FO will **** up every decision and roll with it.
It's been the M.O. for over a decade now, and it doesn't matter who's the GM. If Vlade gets fired, Vivek will replace him with somebody even more lovable and unqualified. If Vivek sells the team, it will be impulse bought by an increasingly unhinged Elon Musk.
I'm pretty sure that the Kings are nothing more than a long running experiment on the latent masochistic psychology of sports fans.
All that being said, I guess I'll give Bagley a chance. He just needs to flash something other than bust potential while talking a bunch of "I'm going to be MVP" bullmess. And we thought WCS was an egomaniac. Sheesh!
It's been the M.O. for over a decade now, and it doesn't matter who's the GM. If Vlade gets fired, Vivek will replace him with somebody even more lovable and unqualified. If Vivek sells the team, it will be impulse bought by an increasingly unhinged Elon Musk.
I'm pretty sure that the Kings are nothing more than a long running experiment on the latent masochistic psychology of sports fans.
All that being said, I guess I'll give Bagley a chance. He just needs to flash something other than bust potential while talking a bunch of "I'm going to be MVP" bullmess. And we thought WCS was an egomaniac. Sheesh!
Nothing has been determined but all we can do is observe and to this point Bagley has struggled in the same ways every time we have seen him. Meanwhile a lot of the other top guys have fared much better showing they have skills, tools, basketball IQ to say "yeah we have something here". I haven't seen anything from Bagley skillwise to tell me he will be more than an athletic energy big that catches dump off and gets put backs.
I have no data that supports this, but my feeling is that Doncic was less than enthusiastic about joining the Kings. And this was probably influenced by his agent, because Doncic does not really know that "Kings are a disfunctional franchise and that one should try to avoid them". so Vlade/Vivek had dinner with him and he was probaly like sure I would not mind playing on Kings, but that was not strong enough for Vlade/Vivek. so given all the other considerations, such as Fox etc they broke in favor of Bagley who did strongly express wish to play for Kings. That is my guess. I am not making a coment on whether this is the right way to go about things or not, I just have a feeling something like that happened.
. yeah was saying the reason Bagley was above Doncic had to do with more than just pure talent evaluation
I have a similar guess... but I think Luka threatened to go Eli Manning on us if chosen. It is only my wild hunch not supported by anything so nobody has to scold me that there is no evidence of this. If I were Luka I would rather smoke cigars with Dirk and Mark Cuban, be manufactured into a celebrity with all the Dallas women - than play on the Kings. It's what I think happened. I think Oswald and only Oswald shot Kennedy, and there are no alien beings in space ships.
I wanted the Kings to draft Luka so bad it hurt. It hurt bad on draft day. I've just completely moved on months ago that's all.
I wanted the Kings to draft Luka so bad it hurt. It hurt bad on draft day. I've just completely moved on months ago that's all.
This is absolutely a reasonable take, but I also know that you're smart enough to value sample size, patience and won't write off Bagley right away. Like I think we both thought Carter Jr. had star written all over him as he was 4th on my big board, but I felt he didn't have the offensive upside that Bagley has. I don't think that disappears after 2 Summer League games and 1 preseason game. Still doesn't change the fact that Bagley put up a truly epic freshman season in a difficult conference.
What's annoying me about this thread with some people is the "Passing on Doncic is already biting us in the ass." kind of comments. Like... what. How could any reasonable "basketball analyst" actually come to that determination after Bagley has played like 70 minute of professional basketball; none of which actually counts yet. Especially when we put Bagley in extremely poor situations, expecting him to create off the bounce 20 feet away from the rim.
What's annoying me about this thread with some people is the "Passing on Doncic is already biting us in the ass." kind of comments. Like... what. How could any reasonable "basketball analyst" actually come to that determination after Bagley has played like 70 minute of professional basketball; none of which actually counts yet. Especially when we put Bagley in extremely poor situations, expecting him to create off the bounce 20 feet away from the rim.