Kings / Suns Game Thread

[63royals]

This is absolutely a reasonable take, but I also know that you're smart enough to value sample size, patience and won't write off Bagley right away. Like I think we both thought Carter Jr. had star written all over him as he was 4th on my big board, but I felt he didn't have the offensive upside that Bagley has. I don't think that disappears after 2 Summer League games and 1 preseason game. Still doesn't change the fact that Bagley put up a truly epic freshman season in a difficult conference.

What's annoying me about this thread with some people is the "Passing on Doncic is already biting us in the ass." kind of comments. Like... what. How could any reasonable "basketball analyst" actually come to that determination after Bagley has played like 70 minute of professional basketball; none of which actually counts yet. Especially when we put Bagley in extremely poor situations, expecting him to create off the bounce 20 feet away from the rim.

I think the fundamental problem is that most of us know that it's way too early to tell whether the Kings made a great choice or passed on the player of a lifetime, and have no interest in having a debate with people who are so clueless that they think Bagley's future has already been determined.

 

[Kingsfan23]

but ... I'm lol... isn't it kind of, like, really really early to be sizing up a guy as a bust? one preseason game and a few SL scrimmages??? oh my

Absolutely. Which is why I’m far from doing that. Kid is 19.

But, if we can make good declarations about what we’ve seen from Harry, Yogi etc., we can note which is faltering. Bagley, has not only been playing “subpar”, ESPN had him as the most disappointing in SL (4 games), and he was throwing up air balls last night and still lacking (aside from some late rim protection). He was been way below expectations. Not only that, he’s saying slightly deluded things (MVP), he’s tweeting passive aggressive stuff about coaches containing him.. It’s just wrong.

He needs to do better, and through 5 games it’s “concerning”. The trajectory isn’t right and I’m not sure ignoring helps

I agree about accepting things and moving on. I can do that in terms of the roster and supporting Bagley as a player. The problem for me is, the source, the FO, who I already had issues with before this, is still there. When I talk about Bagley’s performance to Luka, it’s not to dog Bagley or cry over spilt milk, it’s that I want new FO personally

 

[jcwkings]

lol you think the fans have something to do with it... and that being mad as a fan will help things become different. ok sure.

Not a lot but a fanbase that has largely accepted mediocrity over the last 12 years doesn't help. There has been little to no pressure from either the media or fans on the organization for it's crap product and bush league antics.

 

[Livinthedream]

Absolutely. Which is why I’m far from doing that. Kid is 19.

But, if we can make good declarations about what we’ve seen from Harry, Yogi etc., we can note which is faltering. Bagley, has not only been playing “subpar”, ESPN had him as the most disappointing in SL (4 games), and he was throwing up air balls last night and still lacking (aside from some late rim protection). He was been way below expectations. Not only that, he’s saying slightly deluded things (MVP), he’s tweeting passive aggressive stuff about coaches containing him.. It’s just wrong.

From ESPN and it doesn't sound like doom and gloom to me. Sounds like analysis of the overall situation.

"Han: Disappointment comes with context, as Marvin Bagley played only one game in Las Vegas after the Kings opted to shut down the No. 2 overall pick after he suffered a pelvic bone bruise. Again a victim of his guards, Bagley had little help in his lone Vegas outing, mostly relying on a face-up game out of the half court. Ultimately, there's nothing predictive to Bagley's solo match other than better assistance and more time could've been insightful"

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...best-worst-most-surprising-rookies-5-5-debate

 

[Kingsfan23]

From ESPN and it doesn't sound like doom and gloom to me. Sounds like analysis of the overall situation.

"Han: Disappointment comes with context, as Marvin Bagley played only one game in Las Vegas after the Kings opted to shut down the No. 2 overall pick after he suffered a pelvic bone bruise. Again a victim of his guards, Bagley had little help in his lone Vegas outing, mostly relying on a face-up game out of the half court. Ultimately, there's nothing predictive to Bagley's solo match other than better assistance and more time could've been insightful"

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...best-worst-most-surprising-rookies-5-5-debate

The Vegas game was one of his better games, which is the only game Han seems referencing. Kevin Pelton had another piece, referencing his SL play as the most disappointing of first round picks

 

[mac]

This is absolutely a reasonable take, but I also know that you're smart enough to value sample size, patience and won't write off Bagley right away. Like I think we both thought Carter Jr. had star written all over him as he was 4th on my big board, but I felt he didn't have the offensive upside that Bagley has. I don't think that disappears after 2 Summer League games and 1 preseason game. Still doesn't change the fact that Bagley put up a truly epic freshman season in a difficult conference.

What's annoying me about this thread with some people is the "Passing on Doncic is already biting us in the ass." kind of comments. Like... what. How could any reasonable "basketball analyst" actually come to that determination after Bagley has played like 70 minute of professional basketball; none of which actually counts yet. Especially when we put Bagley in extremely poor situations, expecting him to create off the bounce 20 feet away from the rim.

And again, I say that alot of the angst isn't personally against Bagley, it's against the organization's choice. And if game after game (of course, still early now) we keep saying that Bagley is being put in poor situations, then it only solidifies the angst against the FO. The objective truth is that it would have been easier to fit Doncic into the roster than having Bagley (who can't play on the perimeter offensively) and a multitude of other bigs. If the team can't develop Bagley properly or put him in a position to be confident and to succeed, then it remains that we shouldn't have drafted him. That is the angst that comes with seeing him not produce, whether due to lack of skill on his part or due to not being played in the right position. We already saw what happened when we did that to Tyreke. Too early to write anybody off or call for any heads to roll, but undeniably drafting Bagley isn't LOOKING good. Hopefully that will soon change quickly.

Here's another question looking way into the future. How long can we afford to pin our hopes on Bagley, given he's a #2 pick and expectations are for him to be a big part of our future? Can we afford the same patience as we did WCS? Or does a supposed star picked at 2 need to have a breakout season by year 2/3?

 

[TaxMan]

Not a lot but a fanbase that has largely accepted mediocrity over the last 12 years doesn't help. There has been little to no pressure from either the media or fans on the organization for it's crap product and bush league antics.

LOL....mediocrity is putting it kindly!! I would die for mediocrity!!!

 

[ESP47]

This is absolutely a reasonable take, but I also know that you're smart enough to value sample size, patience and won't write off Bagley right away. Like I think we both thought Carter Jr. had star written all over him as he was 4th on my big board, but I felt he didn't have the offensive upside that Bagley has. I don't think that disappears after 2 Summer League games and 1 preseason game. Still doesn't change the fact that Bagley put up a truly epic freshman season in a difficult conference.

What's annoying me about this thread with some people is the "Passing on Doncic is already biting us in the ass." kind of comments. Like... what. How could any reasonable "basketball analyst" actually come to that determination after Bagley has played like 70 minute of professional basketball; none of which actually counts yet. Especially when we put Bagley in extremely poor situations, expecting him to create off the bounce 20 feet away from the rim.

I didn't think Carter had the scoring upside that Bagley had either but I thought he had passing chops where if he averages say 14pts a game, he could also give you 3-4 assists a game and be a plus defender a few years down the road. Not to mention he can shoot so he can be plugged into multiple lineups without needing specific players around him to succeed since he's sort of a swiss army knife of his own. He just seemed like a really good modern big. A guy who doesn't need to score 20ppg to be as effective as a guy like Bagley who will need to score 20 to have the same effectiveness.

Yeah we don't know which player is going to be better but the people who wanted Doncic aren't all the sudden going to stop wanting Doncic and just sit and patiently wait 3 years to see what happens. I'm not going to bring it up all year because that'll be annoying but what's going to annoy both of us and probably a lot of other fans is going to be the almost inevitable misuse of Bagley this year. Making him look even worse than he is.

I'm watching Mason Plumlee go 11/11 last night and guys like JaVale McGee get set up easily at the rim by multiple players and it's like why can't our Kings do that? Other teams offenses are set up to let their big guys finish at the rim and their shooters shoot from distance and our team is set up to have everyone shoot from midrange and no one really finish at the rim because pick and rolls are so far and few between. It's frustrating. Everyone keeps saying be patient but it's a fundamentally flawed way to play basketball because you'll never consistently beat teams that shoot more threes and score high percentage buckets at the rim all game.

 

[The_Jamal]

And again, I say that alot of the angst isn't personally against Bagley, it's against the organization's choice. And if game after game (of course, still early now) we keep saying that Bagley is being put in poor situations, then it only solidifies the angst against the FO. The objective truth is that it would have been easier to fit Doncic into the roster than having Bagley (who can't play on the perimeter offensively) and a multitude of other bigs. If the team can't develop Bagley properly or put him in a position to be confident and to succeed, then it remains that we shouldn't have drafted him. That is the angst that comes with seeing him not produce, whether due to lack of skill on his part or due to not being played in the right position. We already saw what happened when we did that to Tyreke. Too early to write anybody off or call for any heads to roll, but undeniably drafting Bagley isn't LOOKING good. Hopefully that will soon change quickly.

Here's another question looking way into the future. How long can we afford to pin our hopes on Bagley, given he's a #2 pick and expectations are for him to be a big part of our future? Can we afford the same patience as we did WCS? Or does a supposed star picked at 2 need to have a breakout season by year 2/3?

All good points and nothing I disagree with. But if the problem runs that deep in the organization, then it really wouldn't matter who we drafted at #2, they wouldn't have a chance in hell at succeeding.

I mean with Bagley, we have no choice but to be patient and hope he's a star. Vlade put us in that position after we gave away our likely top 5 pick in this upcoming draft.

It's interesting I kind of got caught on #teamdefendBagley, but I had him behind Doncic on my big board the entire process. But he's a damn talented prospect with unbelievable athleticism and did things as a college prospect that we've never really seen before.

 

[The_Jamal]

I didn't think Carter had the scoring upside that Bagley had either but I thought he had passing chops where if he averages say 14pts a game, he could also give you 3-4 assists a game and be a plus defender a few years down the road. Not to mention he can shoot so he can be plugged into multiple lineups without needing specific players around him to succeed since he's sort of a swiss army knife of his own. He just seemed like a really good modern big. A guy who doesn't need to score 20ppg to be as effective as a guy like Bagley who will need to score 20 to have the same effectiveness.

Yeah we don't know which player is going to be better but the people who wanted Doncic aren't all the sudden going to stop wanting Doncic and just sit and patiently wait 3 years to see what happens. I'm not going to bring it up all year because that'll be annoying but what's going to annoy both of us and probably a lot of other fans is going to be the almost inevitable misuse of Bagley this year. Making him look even worse than he is.

I'm watching Mason Plumlee go 11/11 last night and guys like JaVale McGee get set up easily at the rim by multiple players and it's like why can't our Kings do that? Other teams offenses are set up to let their big guys finish at the rim and their shooters shoot from distance and our team is set up to have everyone shoot from midrange and no one really finish at the rim because pick and rolls are so far and few between. It's frustrating. Everyone keeps saying be patient but it's a fundamentally flawed way to play basketball because you'll never consistently beat teams that shoot more threes and score high percentage buckets at the rim all game.

Absolutely, but that's not a Bagley problem, that's a "our coach and FO sucks" problem. I do agree Doncic would be an easier plug and play just naturally as a wing and ball-handler, but if we can't properly use Bagley and build offensive sets around him (which we should be doing as our #2 pick), I don't have any confidence we'd do the same for Doncic and continue to do the same high post crap. That'd probably be even more tilting watching Doncic stand in the corner in the JJ role, while we run the offense through WCS.

Maybe it'll take a coaching change, but I truly think a Fox-Bagley PnR has the upside to be truly great in 2 years. Just a matter if the coaching staff ever wakes up and realizes that.

 

[Nokidding]

Based on preseason/SL to this point Bagley plays like what I imagined WCS would be his rookie season, still a super long way to go I'm still hoping for Shawn Marion minus the elite perimeter defense. Also the other thing I have learnt is whenever the Kings draft someone that's most "NBA ready" they are not even close to it.

Love Yogi the guy goes hard all the time and can every now and than light it up you know exactly what your getting from him every night with the occasional explosion.

 

[Hansel]

The thing is, it isn't even about Bagley. It's a tired segment of the fan base that wanted one player that they didn't get and are upset with the front office and ownership. Bagley is taking all of the punishment because of it. It's too bad.

I agree a little.
It's not Bagley's fault, people are upset with management. And he got some "hate" because of that. True.
At the same time, if Bagley wasn't play poorly people wouldn't be so upset with the pick.

This will have an impact one way or another on his career.

This part doesn't make any sense to me.
We drafted a guy who is so confident to predict himself as MVP of the league during his rookie year, but he's influenced by a part of fan base in love with Doncic?
Maybe this will impact his perception among the fans, not his career.

 

[206Fan]

If Bagley had a good game, no one would be bitching. Instead, he had a horrible game. It DOES raise calls for concern. He's the #2 overall pick. He's held to an extremely high standard, higher than any former Kings pick..ever. We're talking about the #2 pick!!!!

It's not unfair to criticize the lackluster skill we've seen so far throughout the SL and the 1st preseason game. For the people who have praised him, what has he done legitimately well?

Go back and read all the draft threads. I have given Bagley a ton of high praises. I'm not a Bagley hater..he's just shown me absolutely 0 to be optimistic about him so far. I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Show me something to be excited about.

 

[Joshoua]

I’m seeing a lot of Bagley needs his guards to do a better job putting him in positions to succeed. If that’s the case then he wasn’t a number 3 pick to begin with, you get picked that high and it’s your job to get other people easy shots.

 

[Joshoua]

If Bagley had a good game, no one would be bitching. Instead, he had a horrible game. It DOES raise calls for concern. He's the #2 overall pick. He's held to an extremely high standard, higher than any former Kings pick..ever. We're talking about the #2 pick!!!!

It's not unfair to criticize the lackluster skill we've seen so far throughout the SL and the 1st preseason game. For the people who have praised him, what has he done legitimately well?

Go back and read all the draft threads. I have given Bagley a ton of high praises. I'm not a Bagley hater..he's just shown me absolutely 0 to be optimistic about him so far. I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Show me something to be excited about.

And it’s also hypocritical to give praise and get all excited for Giles than turn around and bash people for having concerns for Bagley

 

[burekijogurt]

Absolutely, but that's not a Bagley problem, that's a "our coach and FO sucks" problem. I do agree Doncic would be an easier plug and play just naturally as a wing and ball-handler, but if we can't properly use Bagley and build offensive sets around him (which we should be doing as our #2 pick), I don't have any confidence we'd do the same for Doncic and continue to do the same high post crap. That'd probably be even more tilting watching Doncic stand in the corner in the JJ role, while we run the offense through WCS.

Maybe it'll take a coaching change, but I truly think a Fox-Bagley PnR has the upside to be truly great in 2 years. Just a matter if the coaching staff ever wakes up and realizes that.

They probably don't know how to run the pnr effectively yet. I remember listening to Bogdanovic in an interview last year addressing the difference between NBA practice and what he is used to in Europe and he said it was different, here they do a lot of work on individual skills such a shooting, or isolation, breaking down your man (I guess all the stuff they have guards doing) and in Europe it was just a lot of different variations of pnr that they pratice, this pnr, that pnr, the other pnr... etc...

 

[Hansel]

They probably don't know how to run the pnr effectively yet. I remember listening to Bogdanovic in an interview last year addressing the difference between NBA practice and what he is used to in Europe and he said it was different, here they do a lot of work on individual skills such a shooting, or isolation, breaking down your man (I guess all the stuff they have guards doing) and in Europe it was just a lot of different variations of pnr that they pratice, this pnr, that pnr, the other pnr... etc...

With no defensive 3 second violation is not so efficient to break down your man, then you meet the big guy to help under the basket.
With a pick n roll you open the lane to the basket as well, that's why European basketball in pick n roll-centered.

 

[The_Jamal]

If Bagley had a good game, no one would be bitching. Instead, he had a horrible game. It DOES raise calls for concern. He's the #2 overall pick. He's held to an extremely high standard, higher than any former Kings pick..ever. We're talking about the #2 pick!!!!

It's not unfair to criticize the lackluster skill we've seen so far throughout the SL and the 1st preseason game. For the people who have praised him, what has he done legitimately well?

Go back and read all the draft threads. I have given Bagley a ton of high praises. I'm not a Bagley hater..he's just shown me absolutely 0 to be optimistic about him so far. I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Show me something to be excited about.

Doubt it. #TeamDoncic is strong on this forum.

 

[SLAB]

Doubt it. #TeamDoncic is strong on this forum.

It isn’t that strong. The reason people are freaking is because Bagley isn’t showing out. Not in SL. Not in his first preseason game.

When Bagley has his first 20/10 game I can guarantee the Doncic talk will be dead for at least a thread.

 

[Larry David]

Far too early to call Bagley a bust. Plus, it's not whether he's a bust. It's whether he's better than Doncic.

By far, the conventional wizdom is that most teams would take Doncic over Bagley at 2. Many many fans in region wanted Doncic. The Kings went against the grain. If they were right, they look smart.

With a pick that high and going against the grain, whether they were right is going to asked among fans for years. I think it's a fair question.

 

[The Effort Police]

They probably don't know how to run the pnr effectively yet. I remember listening to Bogdanovic in an interview last year addressing the difference between NBA practice and what he is used to in Europe and he said it was different, here they do a lot of work on individual skills such a shooting, or isolation, breaking down your man (I guess all the stuff they have guards doing) and in Europe it was just a lot of different variations of pnr that they pratice, this pnr, that pnr, the other pnr... etc...

I don't buy it.

They don't know how to run the pnr effectively and that's why they're not using it, but they run the high post offense that they don't know how to run and in fact don't have the personnel for instead?

Let's call a spade a spade. They're running this offense because it's the coach's style.

 

[63royals]

Far too early to call Bagley a bust. Plus, it's not whether he's a bust. It's whether he's better than Doncic.

By far, the conventional wizdom is that most teams would take Doncic over Bagley at 2. Many many fans in region wanted Doncic. The Kings went against the grain. If they were right, they look smart.

With a pick that high and going against the grain, whether they were right is going to asked among fans for years. I think it's a fair question.

Not only is it a fair question, it's a really important one. We just need to see more of the two of them before we can make productive comparisons. Then, there's who's better after half a season, a whole season, etc. Ultimately it's about this - they thought Bagley was a good pick, were they right? If not, what needs to be fixed, and does someone need to go? The posters who think Bagley's enter career path has already been determined need to be reminded that these are human beings, not video game characters, and they can get better. I hope the front office was right about Bagley - we'll begin to find out when the season starts.

 

[Kingsfan23]

The Luka stuff is becoming just as much of an excuse for the ultra Bagley apologists who want to give a number 2 pick not inspiring confidence a free ticket. They somehow think a number 2 pick playing poorly in SL/preseason should inspire no criticism and that’s there way of admonishing any

Bagley needs to show signs starting tonight

 

[dude12]

The Luka stuff is becoming just as much of an excuse for the ultra Bagley apologists who want to give a number 2 pick not inspiring confidence a free ticket. They somehow think a number 2 pick playing poorly in SL/preseason should inspire no criticism and that’s there way of admonishing any

Bagley needs to show signs starting tonight

Hahaha.

 

[Livinthedream]

The Luka stuff is becoming just as much of an excuse for the ultra Bagley apologists who want to give a number 2 pick not inspiring confidence a free ticket. They somehow think a number 2 pick playing poorly in SL/preseason should inspire no criticism and that’s there way of admonishing any

Bagley needs to show signs starting tonight

Or what?

 

[Kangztillidie]

Or what?

Or hes gonna take his ball and go root for the Mavs?

 

[SLAB]

Or what?

People will continue to rightfully complain. Dude should flash... something at some point.

 

[Joshoua]

People will continue to rightfully complain. Dude should flash... something at some point.

He shouldn’t flash for 3 years

 

[Livinthedream]

People will continue to rightfully complain. Dude should flash... something at some point.

People are going to complain no matter what and move the goal posts when convenient.

 

[63royals]

The Luka stuff is becoming just as much of an excuse for the ultra Bagley apologists who want to give a number 2 pick not inspiring confidence a free ticket. They somehow think a number 2 pick playing poorly in SL/preseason should inspire no criticism and that’s there way of admonishing any

Bagley needs to show signs starting tonight

"Ultra-Bagley apologists" ???? What world are you living in? All I'm saying is there isn't enough information yet to make a definitive assessment. Do you understand the difference?