Grade the Kings off-season so far

[Jkbiker]

Buddy is our best player and if Bogie averages 32mpg, that leaves 16mpg off the bench for Hield. The plan should have been to allow Hield or Bogie to play the backup SF minutes so they can both be on the court for 30mpg minimum.

I can almost guarantee you that KK and/or ZBo will get minutes and now you have a crunch where one of the guys I mentioned won't get very many minutes and it'll likely be Skal or JJ because Bjelica will be spending plenty of time at the 4. It's way too early to put those guys on the back burner. Especially during a season where they aren't expected to win more than 30 games.

Last year Buddy played 24 min per game , Bogi played 28 per game
You want to increase the pace and increase their minutes to over 30 min ea?

Lets comprimise: Bogi 22 SG and Buddy 26
Beli 22 SF,Bogi 8,JJ 18
I would like the starter min for Bogi /Beli to be 22 with both on the floor
I think they will work very well together

Bogi shifts to SF when Beli comes out for Buddy
I dont mind cutting JJ min

Skal will get least min of what I consider our 4 big rotation

 

[Blob]

I pretty much agree with this. He bet on Bagley and doubled down. We'll see how it turns out.



What I meant was that they can both handle a role of being the primary ball handler. If they are on the same team they could've been the primary guy when the other is resting. When playing at the same time they could've shared the dutie. And as I said previously, you cant have only one player creating the offense. Maybe Lebron can but even he had to rest on defense in order to do that. Even if you think Fox is superior to Luka in creating, you still have to have other creators on the floor with Fox.

Actually neither of Fox or Luka is proven Nba offensive creator. But for the sake of argument lets assume thet both are.



Great offenses have multiple good offensive creators. Also as I said above, you cant have only one guy creating offense. That guy needs to be off the ball either way.



None of those guys you listed are succesful playoff caliber offensive creators. At least yet. Bogdanovic looks like he can be the sixth man/3rd option on a good team. Have to see more what Bjelica can do with more ball on his hands.



Bagley is good enough when he shows he is good enough. He didnt show that in summer league but hopefully he shows it in real games.



That couldnt have been the thought process for the FO, thats my whole point. If we want to be a championship caliber team, we would need another offensive creator either way. Our thought process might have been that Bagley was the best player available and thats ok. Saying we passed on Luka because we already have one good offensive creator is not possible. Or it would be very dumb reason to do so.

Not only could it have been the FO thought process, it was, because they said so. Remember the tweet about "not wanting to take the ball out of Fox's hands" ? The other creators on the team with Fox (primary creator) and Boggy (secondary creator) are Giles (allegedly the teams best passer), Yogi and Mason. Even Buddy showed nice passes off drive kicks. His handles are tightening up and a focus of his offseason.

I don't think you can trust Willie as a passer but he will sometimes surprise you with interior dimes. Skal, KK, Jackson, Ben and Bagley (until he proves otherwise) I would consider non shot creators. But if you look at the plus shot creation at off-guard (Boggy) and likely out of the post (Giles; maybe Bagley), we have guys who can make nifty passes. With the addition of Yogi and Bjelica (who has height to see over the top for post entry) I would say this is potentially the best passing team we have had in over a decade!

On Luka I made the point about the Warriors having multiple ball-handlers (KD, Green, Iggy, Curry) which speaks to the type of team we want but the difference there is there isn't a true PG. You want Curry off the ball and you want to have Green to initiate a lot of offense from the top of the key where he can drive and kick. Their talent is more acclimated to sharing creation duties. De'Aaron doesn't need the ball 100% of the time, but I want the ball in his hands 70% of the time when he is on the floor. He's that fast and quick and a constant threat to get into the key and force help. If you disagree I think you are underrating what he can do and who he can be.

If De'Aaron has the ball 70% of the time, leading breaks and initiating in the half-court to maximize his All-Star potential, plus the shot creation offered by Boggy and Giles, and others, there isn't enough possessions for Luka to get the most out of him. It is a problem waiting to happen. I think Luka should have the ball 40-50% of the time he's on the floor or more. That was NOT plausible with us. If our FO was blown away by how Luka shredded opponents with the ball in his hands and he was comparable to De'Aaron in his ability to run breaks and half-court, then he would have made more sense.

But no one was blown away by Luka playing PG. He was good but not devastating. He was guard-able. A Luka-Fox hypothetical pairing would be analogous to Fultz-Simmons in Philadelphia. Fultz needs the ball. Simmons needs the ball. Simmons is more deserving to have the ball. I don't think Fultz is going to maximize his ability there. Fultz is going to try to have success off the ball. He's going to experience mixed results and get frustrated. If Fox was asked to play off the ball as much as Fultz will be asked to play off the ball, I think you are asking for trouble. And this is when players get discontent and seasons unravel.

Suppose Luka increases his explosiveness and becomes a knockdown shooter. Maybe that happens, right? Then he becomes more of a threat with the ball in his hands. Then with his size (6'6 to 6'8 and 220 pounds) he could challenge Fox as a primary ball handler. But this is a generic supposition that can apply to ANY player. If you envision more explosiveness and better shooting with any prospect you can talk yourself into them. As it stands Luka lacks burst and he made 31% of his threes on a ton of attempts. His three point accuracy was equal to Fox, a guy some fans say can't shoot.

Now I will conclude with Luka's fit in Dallas. I think DSJ can play off the ball 60% of the time. He wants to score. He is a 6'0" Francis or Iverson type of player who is shoot first shoot second and pass third. DSJ will like playing with Luka so he can get more shots. Luka will like playing with the Mavs because he will not be asked to score. You have Barnes and Jordan on the front line as lob finishers and spot up shooters. This is a better place for Luka. He can play with the ball 50-60% of the time he's on the floor. Whether he will be successful being a primary facilitator is still an open question. Those expecting superstar I think are going to be disappointed.

 

[Jkbiker]

Also Bogi min at SF could also come in 4th Qtr
Fox,Buddy,Bogi,Beli,Bagley could really produce some clutch buckets in 4th Qtr!!

 

[Kingster]

I really hope the reason we passed on Luka wasnt that "it would've been a vote of non confidence for Fox". First of all, while they both can be primary ball handlers, Lukas size would've allowed them to be on the court at the same time. You can never have too many guys on the floor that can create offense.

In the Nba, the most valuable skill is to being able to create offense for yourself and others. Teams are rarely succesful if you only have one guy that can do that at a high level. You would need a Lebron or Harden type of player to do that.



If Fox is ever going to be nearly as good as you say, he will have to learn to shoot threes. If he can do that, he can be effective off the ball with shooting and cutting.

Also the game is 48minutes long and season is 82 games long. You cant have one player constantly generating majority of the offense while still being able to work on defense. It doesnt really work that way. You need to be able to share the load some. You also ideally would want high level playmaking on the floor the whole game. You can do that if you have two great creators and stagger them. Both plays 35 minutes so they would be playing together 22minutes but the team would have good creator on the floor for 48 minutes.



I dont want to say anything more to that than I would never want my GM making decisions based on that type of thinking. Fear of getting fired is not a good place to make decisions.



First you need to decide wheter we can draw conclusions from the summer league or not. But since you did, based on summer league, his 16/8 would have very little value in winning. Im going to give him some time to show his abilities in real games but after his bad summer league its silly to nitpick one positive thing and ignore all the bad. Also Bagley didnt show much awareness per se. He showed he could use his athletisism in certain situations.

And Im not even commenting on wether Bagley was a good pick or not. We'll see how Doncic does, how Bagley does, how JJJ does ect . Im saying that the argument for passing on Luka couldnt/shouldnt possibly be that we already have Fox. It makes very little sence and goes against on how these great teams have been built.

It sounds like you're completely ignoring both Bogs and Giles in your thinking. When you have Fox, Giles, and Bogs you have plenty of play makers on your team (and that leaves Hield out of the equation entirely, even though we say him making plays for others at the end of last season). I think Joerger and Divac are very aware of the need for multiple play makers, despite the fact that you presume otherwise.

 

[ESP47]

Last year Buddy played 24 min per game , Bogi played 28 per game
You want to increase the pace and increase their minutes to over 30 min ea?

Lets comprimise: Bogi 22 SG and Buddy 26
Beli 22 SF,Bogi 8,JJ 18
I would like the starter min for Bogi /Beli to be 22 with both on the floor
I think they will work very well together

Bogi shifts to SF when Beli comes out for Buddy
I dont mind cutting JJ min

Skal will get least min of what I consider our 4 big rotation

Heck yeah I want to increase the pace and increase their minutes. The rest of the league can handle the pace and the minutes, why can't the Kings players?

Bjelica makes the Kings better right now. Unlike ZBo, he will actually help in the development of Fox but on the flip side of things, he's going to cause a minutes crunch that's going to affect the players I mentioned. I'm not ready to give up on Skal and I'm not high on JJ but I'm not looking to give up on him yet either. The Kings need as many young players as possible to develop in order to jump up in the standings in the future.

 

[Gguod]

Not only could it have been the FO thought process, it was, because they said so. Remember the tweet about "not wanting to take the ball out of Fox's hands" ? The other creators on the team with Fox (primary creator) and Boggy (secondary creator) are Giles (allegedly the teams best passer), Yogi and Mason. Even Buddy showed nice passes off drive kicks. His handles are tightening up and a focus of his offseason.

I don't think you can trust Willie as a passer but he will sometimes surprise you with interior dimes. Skal, KK, Jackson, Ben and Bagley (until he proves otherwise) I would consider non shot creators. But if you look at the plus shot creation at off-guard (Boggy) and likely out of the post (Giles; maybe Bagley), we have guys who can make nifty passes. With the addition of Yogi and Bjelica (who has height to see over the top for post entry) I would say this is potentially the best passing team we have had in over a decade!

On Luka I made the point about the Warriors having multiple ball-handlers (KD, Green, Iggy, Curry) which speaks to the type of team we want but the difference there is there isn't a true PG. You want Curry off the ball and you want to have Green to initiate a lot of offense from the top of the key where he can drive and kick. Their talent is more acclimated to sharing creation duties. De'Aaron doesn't need the ball 100% of the time, but I want the ball in his hands 70% of the time when he is on the floor. He's that fast and quick and a constant threat to get into the key and force help. If you disagree I think you are underrating what he can do and who he can be.

If De'Aaron has the ball 70% of the time, leading breaks and initiating in the half-court to maximize his All-Star potential, plus the shot creation offered by Boggy and Giles, and others, there isn't enough possessions for Luka to get the most out of him. It is a problem waiting to happen. I think Luka should have the ball 40-50% of the time he's on the floor or more. That was NOT plausible with us. If our FO was blown away by how Luka shredded opponents with the ball in his hands and he was comparable to De'Aaron in his ability to run breaks and half-court, then he would have made more sense.

But no one was blown away by Luka playing PG. He was good but not devastating. He was guard-able. A Luka-Fox hypothetical pairing would be analogous to Fultz-Simmons in Philadelphia. Fultz needs the ball. Simmons needs the ball. Simmons is more deserving to have the ball. I don't think Fultz is going to maximize his ability there. Fultz is going to try to have success off the ball. He's going to experience mixed results and get frustrated. If Fox was asked to play off the ball as much as Fultz will be asked to play off the ball, I think you are asking for trouble. And this is when players get discontent and seasons unravel.

Suppose Luka increases his explosiveness and becomes a knockdown shooter. Maybe that happens, right? Then he becomes more of a threat with the ball in his hands. Then with his size (6'6 to 6'8 and 220 pounds) he could challenge Fox as a primary ball handler. But this is a generic supposition that can apply to ANY player. If you envision more explosiveness and better shooting with any prospect you can talk yourself into them. As it stands Luka lacks burst and he made 31% of his threes on a ton of attempts. His three point accuracy was equal to Fox, a guy some fans say can't shoot.

Now I will conclude with Luka's fit in Dallas. I think DSJ can play off the ball 60% of the time. He wants to score. He is a 6'0" Francis or Iverson type of player who is shoot first shoot second and pass third. DSJ will like playing with Luka so he can get more shots. Luka will like playing with the Mavs because he will not be asked to score. You have Barnes and Jordan on the front line as lob finishers and spot up shooters. This is a better place for Luka. He can play with the ball 50-60% of the time he's on the floor. Whether he will be successful being a primary facilitator is still an open question. Those expecting superstar I think are going to be disappointed.

Not completely unreasonable but all this is based on hypotheticals where a)Fox reaches his absolute ceiling, b) Bogdanovic will develope a lot to be the secondary ball handler on a contender/playoff caliber team and c) Giles will reach his ceiling/live up to the hype to be an offensive facilitator. Those are all things that imo arent guaranteed to happen.

I dont want to go too far into a conversation about how likely it is that these players hit their ceiling or improve a lot. They might or they might not and we'll see but none of them are so sure things that it should prevent us drafting certain type of player (that could easily play at the same time as that other player).

When it comes to Fox and Luka playing at the same time, to me its not hard to see how it could've been succesful. First of all as I said, staggering them. 35min for both, 22 minutes together and 48minutes of great creating. Also if Fox is going to hit his ceiling he will be able to shoot so occasionally spotting up should be fine.

One thing how Kyrie and Lebron co-existed and prospered were that they ran a lot of Kyrie - Lebron pick n rolls (actually that was all they ran on clutch time). They either got the ball to one of them with advantage over his defender or forced a switch. After the switch Kyrie had a speed advantage and Lebron had a size advantage. And thats only one simple way to co-exist with another offensive creator. Other is just run your sets that are designed to put one of them in a situation where they have the advantage. If thr defense reacts and takes that away it would open up an advantage with your another creator. But most importantly you would have 48minutes of at least one grear creator plus more options to react on how the defense plays different situations.

If we look at Lebron - Kyrie situation again, you could say that "I dont want to take the ball away from Lebrons hands since he is the best player on the planet". Even so especially in the post season, Cavs were a lot better the year they had Kyrie. Its just the nature of the game. If you have two elite creators, you will be better because of that. Now of course we wont expect Luka&Fox hypothetical pairing to be as good as Lebron&Kyrie. But still that situation has some similarities to this discussion and in that case, two ball dominant offensive creators co existed very well.

My idea of a team that has contender potential is a team that has at least two great offensive creators (one of them can be a little more scorer than other but both should be able to drive from the perimeter and force defenses to collapse ect). And by great I mean Chris Paul, Lillard, Wall, Paul George, Jimmy Butler ect or close to that. Atm we dont have any but Fox might have potential to be one. You can also be good enough for playoffs with one great creator, few other good creators and good defense but for a while a lot of the contenders have been teams that have two or more the type of players that are most valuable: players that create offense for themselves and others. I find that you are more likely to be a contender with two great creators than one.

Mostly because of these things I find it impossible that any FO would think that they dont want to take an offensive creator because they already have one and couple others that might be capable. Or atlest they shouldnt think. They can think that Doncic is not that good or Bagley is a superior player but they cant/shouldnt think that they cant draft an offensive creator because one of their existing players might become good at that.

 

[AleksandarN]

My take: Vlade hasn't had a terrible off-season, nor a very good one. Objectively he is one of if not the least qualified/worst GM's in the league. I have next to no confidence in him being able to competently negotiate trades, have a full grasp of the CBA and salary cap.He was a very good player so I have confidence in him being able to recognize talent, in general. So at this point as a Kings fan you have to hope Vlade has stumbled his way onto a good team moving forward. There is a chance he has, but ultimately I would feel better as a fan if the team had owners and management I feel confidence in, and right now that is not the case.

You will give him no credit at all. Some people on here. He cannot win. Even if he does you will say he lucked out

 

[AleksandarN]

It’s teams sending bad signals to get a player to fall to them. A team picking 5 isn’t gonna let the world know they love a guy that’s supposed to go top 3. Bash the guy and hope teams pass on him, hell im doing that right now in advance for my fantasy football draft.

Yeah because running a fantasy football draft is like running a NBA franchise.

 

[ppine]

It is gratifying that the Kings were able to land some free agents. The team has plenty of size for a change. I will be surprised if any on them are more than role players coming off the bench.
Ben Mac? Really? That one makes me wonder. I would much rather have Temple.
Getting Bagley is big. A healthy Giles is big. Otherwise not much has happened except that we learned a lot about Mason and his shortcomings.

 

[Gary]

Hey EIM86, I just saw your question "who and why?" in regards to picking someone other than Bagley in the other thread.

I was thinking we could have traded down for a player plus we could have still drafted the guy I liked (Trae Young). That's all. I just didn't think Bagley is going to be aggressive enough to be a dominant player. Trae is aggressive, and I believe the odds are better he will be running the Atlanta offense from the get go, and has a good chance to be the ROY.

 

[Joshoua]

Vlade told you (and all of us) why we passed on Luka. In his assessment Bagley was the BETTER player AND fit. He went all in. This comment will validate his analytical prowess or open him to further criticism and mockery. Right or wrong I respect Vlade for being unequivocal. He did not say "it was a close call" or "it came down the wire" or it was "a decision of much consternation and agony". He didn't say one complimentary comment about Luka in his post draft press conference. I like it. He said Bagley was our guy and it was an EASY decision. He pushed in all his chips on a player he believes in. Good for you, Vlade! This earns my respect for a GM I have been highly critical of. To validate his opinion Bagley therefore has to clearly be the more impactful and effective player.

You have to redefine the word primary to say that Fox and Luka could have been primary ball handlers. This is not how it works. You are primary or secondary or roles tend to get confused. Can Luka breakdown his man with the ball in his hands? He couldn't in Europe so how is he going to do it in NBA vs better athletes with more size and mobility? He's a good player but not as transcendent as the fan boys want to assert. I do NOT want to give the ball to Luka and take the ball out of Fox's hand when the latter player is more formidable to drive by his man and create havoc. Fox is a force in the making. He can make 32-36% of 3s this year after 31% last year and thats enough to keep defenders honest. This is not a difficult determination to make. Fox is unbelievable when he is at his best. Luka is not going to take your breath away like Fox can.

Of course it is nice to have players who can create shots for themselves and others. That is who the Warriors are after all and their results speak for themselves. But if you believe in Fox why do you want to take the ball out of his hands? Why do you want him off the ball? Boggy can create. He's really good in the half court picking apart defenses as you have probably noticed. His assist rate was in the 80% percentile for guards. Giles can pass. Bjelica and Yogi can pass. What you need to complement this group is finishers. A hyper-athletic and hyper-active MBIII is a finisher. His numbers as 18 year olf in the ACC were record breaking. Is that not good enough?! As a lefty dominant with evolving post game and face-up game, he is not flawless or finished product but just turning 19 years old why should he be?!

This was our front office's thought process I am certain. It is sound. It may prove wrong but the odds are in their (our) favor. I could go on an on but I will resist that urge. I am not even saying Bagley is a superstar or Luka is going to disappoint. I don't think that. But I think based on risk / reward analysis the correct decision was made. I am not ashamed to say that I was higher on Mario H before his draft than Luka. I loved Mario. I liked Luka. Mario could shoot and jump out of the gym. Then he struggled mightily in Orlando before finally starting to put it together a little last year. Results in Europe can be deceptive if you are not able to handle the rigors of a major step up in quickness and strength in the opposition. This is challenge that Luka will face. Good luck to him. I like the odds Bagley responds with more force and effectiveness. I think Vlade will be vindicated. Good times are ahead.

Fox wasn’t and isn’t good enough to justify passing on a player for fit so that fit y’all from Vlade is an embarrassment. And if we’re gonna go fit haven’t we been hearing that Giles was our best player in practice how does picking a non shooting big help him out.

Look at all the good teams they have common things multiple shooters, multiple playmakers, and there rosters is made up of wings. Look at Boston took Brown 2 year the next year we’re down to Jackson/Tatum and this year we’re rumored to love Donicic. You build with multiple 6’6- 6’8 players Doncic is literally perfect for this era. What wings do we have Bogdan and Buddy as our core.

Now Bagley people acting like he’s a sure bet because of what he did at Duke. He’s gonna have to gain massive strength to post up players as he proved in summer he’s not nearly strong enough. Add to that his only post move is a running hook found left teams will take that away.

I loved Mario too but the two can’t be compared. Mario was unproven and got no playing time Luka was out there leading his team to titles

Still support Bagley but I believe a mistake was made at worst Luka is a 6’8 player who could play 1-3 and shoot. Bagley would be a non shooting PF clogging the lane rebounder and finisher

 

[Kingster]

Not only could it have been the FO thought process, it was, because they said so. Remember the tweet about "not wanting to take the ball out of Fox's hands" ? The other creators on the team with Fox (primary creator) and Boggy (secondary creator) are Giles (allegedly the teams best passer), Yogi and Mason. Even Buddy showed nice passes off drive kicks. His handles are tightening up and a focus of his offseason.

I don't think you can trust Willie as a passer but he will sometimes surprise you with interior dimes. Skal, KK, Jackson, Ben and Bagley (until he proves otherwise) I would consider non shot creators. But if you look at the plus shot creation at off-guard (Boggy) and likely out of the post (Giles; maybe Bagley), we have guys who can make nifty passes. With the addition of Yogi and Bjelica (who has height to see over the top for post entry) I would say this is potentially the best passing team we have had in over a decade!

On Luka I made the point about the Warriors having multiple ball-handlers (KD, Green, Iggy, Curry) which speaks to the type of team we want but the difference there is there isn't a true PG. You want Curry off the ball and you want to have Green to initiate a lot of offense from the top of the key where he can drive and kick. Their talent is more acclimated to sharing creation duties. De'Aaron doesn't need the ball 100% of the time, but I want the ball in his hands 70% of the time when he is on the floor. He's that fast and quick and a constant threat to get into the key and force help. If you disagree I think you are underrating what he can do and who he can be.

If De'Aaron has the ball 70% of the time, leading breaks and initiating in the half-court to maximize his All-Star potential, plus the shot creation offered by Boggy and Giles, and others, there isn't enough possessions for Luka to get the most out of him. It is a problem waiting to happen. I think Luka should have the ball 40-50% of the time he's on the floor or more. That was NOT plausible with us. If our FO was blown away by how Luka shredded opponents with the ball in his hands and he was comparable to De'Aaron in his ability to run breaks and half-court, then he would have made more sense.

But no one was blown away by Luka playing PG. He was good but not devastating. He was guard-able. A Luka-Fox hypothetical pairing would be analogous to Fultz-Simmons in Philadelphia. Fultz needs the ball. Simmons needs the ball. Simmons is more deserving to have the ball. I don't think Fultz is going to maximize his ability there. Fultz is going to try to have success off the ball. He's going to experience mixed results and get frustrated. If Fox was asked to play off the ball as much as Fultz will be asked to play off the ball, I think you are asking for trouble. And this is when players get discontent and seasons unravel.

Suppose Luka increases his explosiveness and becomes a knockdown shooter. Maybe that happens, right? Then he becomes more of a threat with the ball in his hands. Then with his size (6'6 to 6'8 and 220 pounds) he could challenge Fox as a primary ball handler. But this is a generic supposition that can apply to ANY player. If you envision more explosiveness and better shooting with any prospect you can talk yourself into them. As it stands Luka lacks burst and he made 31% of his threes on a ton of attempts. His three point accuracy was equal to Fox, a guy some fans say can't shoot.

Now I will conclude with Luka's fit in Dallas. I think DSJ can play off the ball 60% of the time. He wants to score. He is a 6'0" Francis or Iverson type of player who is shoot first shoot second and pass third. DSJ will like playing with Luka so he can get more shots. Luka will like playing with the Mavs because he will not be asked to score. You have Barnes and Jordan on the front line as lob finishers and spot up shooters. This is a better place for Luka. He can play with the ball 50-60% of the time he's on the floor. Whether he will be successful being a primary facilitator is still an open question. Those expecting superstar I think are going to be disappointed.

Agreed on the passing. The fact that the best purported passer, Giles, is an alpha dog, is important. He's going to be setting the tone for the entire team, along with Fox. It's also the most athletic Kings' team I've ever seen, bar none.

The other situation that is useful for the Fox-Doncic discussion is LBJ and Ball. Ball is going to become an irrelevancy in L.A. His entire existence concerns handling the ball, and we know LBJ wants to be the heart of the concentric circle on offense. If you think Fultz, a good shooter, is going to have trouble without the ball in his hands, think of what happens to Ball. And think about how Ball's father reacts to his son being an afterthought on a team that last year drafted him second overall.

 

[Blob]

Not completely unreasonable but all this is based on hypotheticals where a)Fox reaches his absolute ceiling, b) Bogdanovic will develope a lot to be the secondary ball handler on a contender/playoff caliber team and c) Giles will reach his ceiling/live up to the hype to be an offensive facilitator. Those are all things that imo arent guaranteed to happen.

I dont want to go too far into a conversation about how likely it is that these players hit their ceiling or improve a lot. They might or they might not and we'll see but none of them are so sure things that it should prevent us drafting certain type of player (that could easily play at the same time as that other player).

When it comes to Fox and Luka playing at the same time, to me its not hard to see how it could've been succesful. First of all as I said, staggering them. 35min for both, 22 minutes together and 48minutes of great creating. Also if Fox is going to hit his ceiling he will be able to shoot so occasionally spotting up should be fine.

One thing how Kyrie and Lebron co-existed and prospered were that they ran a lot of Kyrie - Lebron pick n rolls (actually that was all they ran on clutch time). They either got the ball to one of them with advantage over his defender or forced a switch. After the switch Kyrie had a speed advantage and Lebron had a size advantage. And thats only one simple way to co-exist with another offensive creator. Other is just run your sets that are designed to put one of them in a situation where they have the advantage. If thr defense reacts and takes that away it would open up an advantage with your another creator. But most importantly you would have 48minutes of at least one grear creator plus more options to react on how the defense plays different situations.

If we look at Lebron - Kyrie situation again, you could say that "I dont want to take the ball away from Lebrons hands since he is the best player on the planet". Even so especially in the post season, Cavs were a lot better the year they had Kyrie. Its just the nature of the game. If you have two elite creators, you will be better because of that. Now of course we wont expect Luka&Fox hypothetical pairing to be as good as Lebron&Kyrie. But still that situation has some similarities to this discussion and in that case, two ball dominant offensive creators co existed very well.

My idea of a team that has contender potential is a team that has at least two great offensive creators (one of them can be a little more scorer than other but both should be able to drive from the perimeter and force defenses to collapse ect). And by great I mean Chris Paul, Lillard, Wall, Paul George, Jimmy Butler ect or close to that. Atm we dont have any but Fox might have potential to be one. You can also be good enough for playoffs with one great creator, few other good creators and good defense but for a while a lot of the contenders have been teams that have two or more the type of players that are most valuable: players that create offense for themselves and others. I find that you are more likely to be a contender with two great creators than one.

Mostly because of these things I find it impossible that any FO would think that they dont want to take an offensive creator because they already have one and couple others that might be capable. Or atlest they shouldnt think. They can think that Doncic is not that good or Bagley is a superior player but they cant/shouldnt think that they cant draft an offensive creator because one of their existing players might become good at that.

I could get more on board with your argument if Luka had more burst and was a more aggressive scorer, and if he was a legitimate 6'9; then he would create more havoc and headache. He would have done more damage against guys who could not contain him. As it is I think he's closer to 6'7" with shoes with average NBA athleticism and superior court vision. He is a smart player and deep shooting cures many ills. If he becomes a 40% three point shooter going up 10% like Tatum did from Duke to Celtics, then his prospects change. This can however be said for any player, including our own Fox and Bagley.

I might be fretting to pass on Luka if he was taller so he could easily play power 4, if he was a workout freak, if his flawless shot mechanics resulted in more makes, if he was more speedy than sluggish. He's none of these things! I think fans were somewhat sold a bill of goods the way they were sold a bill of goods on Lonzo Bust, the transcendent franchise PG, who the Lakers just tried to peddle away, the Spurs didn't want, and looks like damaged goods after an overrated season in which he was gifted minutes. Lonzo was handed the keys unlike Fox. Lonzo posted fake stats and the bias media lapped it up. His days of entitlement are over. I expect divergence with Fox taking off and Lonzo giving way to Hart and Rondo. The Lakers plans have changed. They are not deferential or dependent to Lonzo any more. The Kings by contrast are more invested in Fox than ever. And rightfully so!

When Fox has a breakout second year and Lonzo is picking the splinters from his backside remember where you heard it first.

The bloom is off the rose with Lonzo Bust and next year at this time we may be saying the same thing about Luka. The qualifier is shooting. Is he going to be money from deep? He has beautiful form and arc so maybe his shot goes in if he can gain separation. There is a simple test I like to apply to any prospect based on three metrics: (1) strength / size (2) speed (3) fundamentals. The best players rank relatively and collectively high to get to their preferred spot on defense or offense (with speed and strength) and execute (fundamentals). When the handful of teams soured on Luka (Hawks, Kings, Grizzlies, Suns) it is because they discovered he was not as big (metric #1) or fast (metric#2) as previously advertised. We never even learned his wingspan?! To compensate for this underwhelming physical and athletic profile he needed to have incredible skill (metric #3). He sees the floor and makes fundamental plays but 31% from deep is pedestrian. This is why he slipped and why I never believed the Top Two narrative of he and Ayton.

I understand your logic with comparison of Kyrie-LeBron. LeBron's best position is point forward. You could say the same thing about Luka. Where the comparison loses merit IMO is Kyrie and LeBron could be equally effective as shot creators for themselves or others. I do not anticipate that would have been case with Luka and Fox. Fox is going to break down his man with more regularity. He is going to score at three levels. Luka is more inclined to make the fundamental pass and get out of the way. With Kyrie, LeBron and Fox you have defenders who cannot stay in front of them. Luka is a player who is going to back down the smaller man. Thats his advantage. The hype train wants to put Luka in the category with Ben Simmons or LeBron as a point forward. Luka needs to make his shots (metric #3) and develop better face-up juke moves (metric #2) to rise to this esteemed category. I don't see it!

To throw Bagley into the discussion he ranks extremely well in speed (metric #2) with average size (metric #1) and above average fundamentals (#3). The speed component, changing ends, second and third jump, is his edge to exploit and largely the reason why we took him. Luka's edge in my mind is not as well-defined. Still I had Luka 4th on my board. I expect him to be a pretty good and fun player to watch. He fits in well with the Mavs personnel. The open floor and increased spacing will help. But I think if the Kings regret on passing on a player it will be Jaren Jackson or Mo Bamba. It won't be Luka.

 

[Semi]

Let's review:
1. Drafted at the #2 position, selecting Marvin Bagley III.
2. Declined to make qualifying offer to Bruno Caboclo
3, Traded Garrett Temple to Grizzlies for Ben Mclemore, Deyonte Davis, 2021 second round draft pick and Cash Considerations III
4. Signed free agent Yogi Ferrell
5. Signed free agent Nemanji Bjelica
6. Hired Bobby Jackson as assistant player development coach

IMHO that's not a bad off-season.

What do you think?

1. Too early to tell but I'm hoping he turns out to be a beast and show that it wasn't a mistake passing on Doncic.
2. Good move.
3, Not overly pleased about this trade. I understand Temple doesn't have alot of trade value but I feel that he was worth more to us than what we got. Not excited to see Ben back.
4. Good signing.
5. Good signing. Slight overpay but nothing awful.
6. Great move.

Solid offseason for the Kings. Nothing flashy but promising. I'm going to give them a B.

 

[ppine]

Many people seem very convinced that they have a handle on who is going to be starting and who will be coming of the bench and when.
I seriously doubt if Coach Jaeger feels that way at this stage of the season.

 

[Kingsfan2002]

With the Kings being I believe the last team with any real cap room to work with.

It kinda puts us in an interesting position if 2 teams get into a Hail Mary bidding war over say Clint Capela or another FA or someone else. Problem is he's basically all thats left.

Really terrible year to be the 1 of 4 or 5 teams with massive room. If only it was 2019 and we were 1 of 5.

Not all hope is lost tho. HOU may still need help

 

[Semi]

With the Kings being I believe the last team with any real cap room to work with.

It kinda puts us in an interesting position if 2 teams get into a Hail Mary bidding war over say Clint Capela or another FA or someone else. Problem is he's basically all thats left.

Really terrible year to be the 1 of 4 or 5 teams with massive room. If only it was 2019 and we were 1 of 5.

Not all hope is lost tho. HOU may still need help

I thought we spent our remaining cap space on Yogi Ferrell and Nemanji Bjelica. Am I wrong?

 

[Kingsfan2002]

I thought we spent our remaining cap space on Yogi Ferrell and Nemanji Bjelica. Am I wrong?

We reached the min a team has to spend. I think we still have about 10 mil left

 

[joemama]

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/sacramento-kings/cap/

We have approx 11 million.
*Only Bjelica's salary is estimated, all others are concrete.

 

[sactowndog]

Not only could it have been the FO thought process, it was, because they said so. Remember the tweet about "not wanting to take the ball out of Fox's hands" ? The other creators on the team with Fox (primary creator) and Boggy (secondary creator) are Giles (allegedly the teams best passer), Yogi and Mason. Even Buddy showed nice passes off drive kicks. His handles are tightening up and a focus of his offseason.

I don't think you can trust Willie as a passer but he will sometimes surprise you with interior dimes. Skal, KK, Jackson, Ben and Bagley (until he proves otherwise) I would consider non shot creators. But if you look at the plus shot creation at off-guard (Boggy) and likely out of the post (Giles; maybe Bagley), we have guys who can make nifty passes. With the addition of Yogi and Bjelica (who has height to see over the top for post entry) I would say this is potentially the best passing team we have had in over a decade!

On Luka I made the point about the Warriors having multiple ball-handlers (KD, Green, Iggy, Curry) which speaks to the type of team we want but the difference there is there isn't a true PG. You want Curry off the ball and you want to have Green to initiate a lot of offense from the top of the key where he can drive and kick. Their talent is more acclimated to sharing creation duties. De'Aaron doesn't need the ball 100% of the time, but I want the ball in his hands 70% of the time when he is on the floor. He's that fast and quick and a constant threat to get into the key and force help. If you disagree I think you are underrating what he can do and who he can be.

If De'Aaron has the ball 70% of the time, leading breaks and initiating in the half-court to maximize his All-Star potential, plus the shot creation offered by Boggy and Giles, and others, there isn't enough possessions for Luka to get the most out of him. It is a problem waiting to happen. I think Luka should have the ball 40-50% of the time he's on the floor or more. That was NOT plausible with us. If our FO was blown away by how Luka shredded opponents with the ball in his hands and he was comparable to De'Aaron in his ability to run breaks and half-court, then he would have made more sense.

But no one was blown away by Luka playing PG. He was good but not devastating. He was guard-able. A Luka-Fox hypothetical pairing would be analogous to Fultz-Simmons in Philadelphia. Fultz needs the ball. Simmons needs the ball. Simmons is more deserving to have the ball. I don't think Fultz is going to maximize his ability there. Fultz is going to try to have success off the ball. He's going to experience mixed results and get frustrated. If Fox was asked to play off the ball as much as Fultz will be asked to play off the ball, I think you are asking for trouble. And this is when players get discontent and seasons unravel.

Suppose Luka increases his explosiveness and becomes a knockdown shooter. Maybe that happens, right? Then he becomes more of a threat with the ball in his hands. Then with his size (6'6 to 6'8 and 220 pounds) he could challenge Fox as a primary ball handler. But this is a generic supposition that can apply to ANY player. If you envision more explosiveness and better shooting with any prospect you can talk yourself into them. As it stands Luka lacks burst and he made 31% of his threes on a ton of attempts. His three point accuracy was equal to Fox, a guy some fans say can't shoot.

Now I will conclude with Luka's fit in Dallas. I think DSJ can play off the ball 60% of the time. He wants to score. He is a 6'0" Francis or Iverson type of player who is shoot first shoot second and pass third. DSJ will like playing with Luka so he can get more shots. Luka will like playing with the Mavs because he will not be asked to score. You have Barnes and Jordan on the front line as lob finishers and spot up shooters. This is a better place for Luka. He can play with the ball 50-60% of the time he's on the floor. Whether he will be successful being a primary facilitator is still an open question. Those expecting superstar I think are going to be disappointed.

I think your point is valid not to mention having DeAndre as a rim protector when NBA Guard blow past Luka.