Grades/post-game discussion v. Raptors - 12/10
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
Definetly a “damn kids” game.
Missing easy shots
Passing up other easy shots for harder shots
Silly turnovers
Getting many big stops but never getting the rebound
The Kings couldn’t get back over the hump after Fox botched that easy layup.
Oh well, expected. I thought the defensive effort and the overall effort was strong. Just really struggled to get out of their own way.
Missing easy shots
Passing up other easy shots for harder shots
Silly turnovers
Getting many big stops but never getting the rebound
The Kings couldn’t get back over the hump after Fox botched that easy layup.
Oh well, expected. I thought the defensive effort and the overall effort was strong. Just really struggled to get out of their own way.
Tough start, but a couple of the kids showed flashes.
It’s just me, but if there total pages are going to remain low, there aren’t going to be grades because people are understandably too busy, and most of the posts are just continuations of long and ongoing fights, perhaps the post game threads can stop for a while?
I’m not sure and splitting the content associated with a 36 hour period is helpful at this time.
It’s just me, but if there total pages are going to remain low, there aren’t going to be grades because people are understandably too busy, and most of the posts are just continuations of long and ongoing fights, perhaps the post game threads can stop for a while?
I’m not sure and splitting the content associated with a 36 hour period is helpful at this time.
Unfortunately our two young PGs didn't play so well. Fox had more turnovers than assists and only 6 points. Mason had no turnovers, but only hit 1 of 10 shots.
Temple is our best defender, but we're going to suffer when he brings no offense to the table. If he's going to be our Michael Cooper, he shouldn't be starting.
I enjoyed watching the 2nd unit bring us back after the near-disastrous start. Well, ok, disastrous start. And Buddy get's lots of credit for that.
Second half not so enjoyable. Ultimately the Raptors are a veteran team that doesn't make many mistakes. And we're a young team that makes lots of mistakes. Buddy, for example, can be a turnover machine, and he had 6 turnovers in this game.
Bogie had another nice game, but only one assist. So who led us in assists? Nobody! Justin Jackson and Frank Mason had 3 each.
Did anyone notice that Sampson hit another three? He looks better with the corner 3 than he does from 3 feet! It'll be interesting to see how we feel about Sampson at the end of the year. My money is still on Jackson for becoming our small forward. And Bogie (and VC, this year) can play some minutes there, too. But Sampson's energy is contagious, and if the Kings can help him develop some offensive skills, he might be worth a contract next year. Especially if our lottery pick goes for a big fella.
Temple is our best defender, but we're going to suffer when he brings no offense to the table. If he's going to be our Michael Cooper, he shouldn't be starting.
I enjoyed watching the 2nd unit bring us back after the near-disastrous start. Well, ok, disastrous start. And Buddy get's lots of credit for that.
Second half not so enjoyable. Ultimately the Raptors are a veteran team that doesn't make many mistakes. And we're a young team that makes lots of mistakes. Buddy, for example, can be a turnover machine, and he had 6 turnovers in this game.
Bogie had another nice game, but only one assist. So who led us in assists? Nobody! Justin Jackson and Frank Mason had 3 each.
Did anyone notice that Sampson hit another three? He looks better with the corner 3 than he does from 3 feet! It'll be interesting to see how we feel about Sampson at the end of the year. My money is still on Jackson for becoming our small forward. And Bogie (and VC, this year) can play some minutes there, too. But Sampson's energy is contagious, and if the Kings can help him develop some offensive skills, he might be worth a contract next year. Especially if our lottery pick goes for a big fella.
Personally, I like the post game threads, too bad they are at times hijacked by people just wanting to be contrarian. We have a couple on here who are pushing the limits of trolldom. Despite their claims to the contrary, it appears to me they are just looking to sow discord by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages, the definition of an Internet troll. They hide behind "I'm just expressing my opinion", but they always come back to the same hot button topics, they never post anything constructive or of value, but they post a lot. I guess it is probably just best to put them on ignore, but I suppose that would leave a bunch of "holes" in the thread which they may find satisfying, too.
Bogdan's bread and butter in Europe was the pick and roll and he's the best guy on our team when it comes to running it. Bogdan, Mason and Fox are all more than capable of running it and WCS, Skal and Papa are all big targets to find on lobs. You can't tell me that we don't have the personnel to run it because we do.
I agree with you. When someone posts negative post after negative post it becomes obvious they have another agenda than being a Kings Fan. It is almost as if they hate Joerger so much they have made it a goal to post here constantly about Joerger in a negative fashion.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Can't you say that about the posters here who only repeatly see sunshine and rainbows, after all this is one of the worst teams in the laegue. Some of the people here who post the most have never said anything negative about one of the worst teams in the league. The team is in the basement and some here post like we're going to make a run at the ring. As annoying as the negative comments are to you, the positive ones about this basement team are just as frustrating for the people who view this team different then you.
I don't think Joeger or Vlade will be with this team when they finally make the playoffs. Does that make me a troll? I don't think Fox and Mason will be our PG's for the next ten years does that make me a troll too?
I'll be very happy if I'm wrong and will have no problem admitting it. I hope the Kings fans on this board who defend Joeger as a great coach and have labeled some of our players HOFers do the same. Only time will tell.
Will anyone be surprised if we give up a top 3 pick in the 2019 NBA draft? Will that be a major problem to some of you? Will most here give Vlade a pass? Do you want the owner of an NBA team to give a guy a pass like that? Sorry if that's negative for some of you, I like to hold the front office accountable for the moves they make good or bad
I don't think Joeger or Vlade will be with this team when they finally make the playoffs. Does that make me a troll? I don't think Fox and Mason will be our PG's for the next ten years does that make me a troll too?
I'll be very happy if I'm wrong and will have no problem admitting it. I hope the Kings fans on this board who defend Joeger as a great coach and have labeled some of our players HOFers do the same. Only time will tell.
Will anyone be surprised if we give up a top 3 pick in the 2019 NBA draft? Will that be a major problem to some of you? Will most here give Vlade a pass? Do you want the owner of an NBA team to give a guy a pass like that? Sorry if that's negative for some of you, I like to hold the front office accountable for the moves they make good or bad
Exactly “only time will tell”. But there are posters on here who are not willing to give it time. They are not willing to give Joerger and the front office time. They never waste an opportunity to attack Joerger or the front office because they appear to have an agenda that either involves hating Joerger and Vlade or whomever or they are just seeking attention. I think a couple of them fall into that last category.
You’re right, this is a bad team right now, it’s a rebuilding team, what do you expect? Do you think Red Auerbach could take this team right now to even the playoffs? I think most of us want to give them time to see how it develops. Rebuilding at team is a crapshoot, just like the draft. A lot of posters are consumed with losing games so that they can get that mythical franchise player in a top 3 draft. Even getting the number 1 pick is no guarantee. I am just not seeing those comments about Joerger being a “great” coach and future HOF players, please provide some recent quotes. If you want to see comments hating on Joerger, just look at this thread. I think the people that defend Joerger think he has shown to be a good coach, he is still young still learning, has a completely revamped team from what he signed on for, so let’s just give him time to see how he does. What would you do? Fire him and start over again? Who would you get?
Has the front office made mistakes? Sure, which FO hasn’t. Move on from past mistakes, some people just can’t let it go, they bring up the same old stuff over and over like a broken record.
Frankly, I am a little disappointed in you. I have seen your posts on here before and for the most part I found you to be reasonable. But if you want to throw your hat in the ring with constant complainers and haters and belittlers, then so be it.
You’re right, this is a bad team right now, it’s a rebuilding team, what do you expect? Do you think Red Auerbach could take this team right now to even the playoffs? I think most of us want to give them time to see how it develops. Rebuilding at team is a crapshoot, just like the draft. A lot of posters are consumed with losing games so that they can get that mythical franchise player in a top 3 draft. Even getting the number 1 pick is no guarantee. I am just not seeing those comments about Joerger being a “great” coach and future HOF players, please provide some recent quotes. If you want to see comments hating on Joerger, just look at this thread. I think the people that defend Joerger think he has shown to be a good coach, he is still young still learning, has a completely revamped team from what he signed on for, so let’s just give him time to see how he does. What would you do? Fire him and start over again? Who would you get?
Has the front office made mistakes? Sure, which FO hasn’t. Move on from past mistakes, some people just can’t let it go, they bring up the same old stuff over and over like a broken record.
Frankly, I am a little disappointed in you. I have seen your posts on here before and for the most part I found you to be reasonable. But if you want to throw your hat in the ring with constant complainers and haters and belittlers, then so be it.
"Mason reminds me of a current HOF'er and a future HOF'er.
I think a good comparison would be Houston Rockets great, Calvin Murphy with Some Chris Paul passing savvy BBIQ.
Mason could be that good."
That quote was from THIS Saturday.
You asked if I would fire Joeger. I wouldn't right now but I'm not goin to jump on a poster because they think that. THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. Most of the time when a team is in the basement the coach is one of the first to go. Doesn't seem that far fetched.
You say let the FO mistakes go. What job in America can you make major mistakes and hurt your company (like the possibility of the giving up a top pick) and not be held accountable? Do you give the FO a pass on everything they do?
One could criticize Joerger for not treating this team like a rebuilding team. He says he doesn't have much planned for Sampson because he's not part of our long-term plans. I find a major flaw in this argument when he decides to give Temple and Hill 25mins each. Neither of those guys are part of our long-term plans. Yes we're contractually bound to them for 1 more year, but both guys are 31 at the peak/decline of their career.
I want to be wrong about joeger. I really do. But I'm not. And in the coming weeks radio personalities will finally voice what some here have been saying. Joeger is not the right coach for this team.
Unfortunately the kings FO has backed themselves into a corner. They cannot fire joeger. Even if he's not the right coach our history of being a coaching carousel will assure joeger being our coach for the foreseeable future. We need the stability, Even if it does ruin our youngsters. That coaching extension will go
Down as another black mark for our FO.
Unfortunately the kings FO has backed themselves into a corner. They cannot fire joeger. Even if he's not the right coach our history of being a coaching carousel will assure joeger being our coach for the foreseeable future. We need the stability, Even if it does ruin our youngsters. That coaching extension will go
Down as another black mark for our FO.
Regarding Sampson, Joerger was just being truthful. If you pay close attention to his statement, he stopped himself from making a caveat that "unless Vlade makes a deal" Sampson can't stay with the big club. Divac needs to do something to free up a roster spot for Sampson. He's only 24 years old. It's not like he's an aged vet. He's shown tremendous energy, good defense, good rebounding, and for crying out loud, he's even hit a couple of 3 pointers. Not only would it improve the quality of the overall roster , it would send a message that management values heart, energy, and fire, and isn't wedded to draft picks just because they are Kings' picks.
As far as the Raptors game is concerned, this game shows the difference between a very cohesive well coached Raptors team and the Pels, who are much less cohesive and individualistic in their play, both defensively and offensively. The Kings just aren't up to playing a veteran team that plays as a team, has been with each other for years, and has good talent to boot. When the Kings play the Suns, there is no such excuse. It would be nice to see the Kings win against them by double digits.
As far as the Raptors game is concerned, this game shows the difference between a very cohesive well coached Raptors team and the Pels, who are much less cohesive and individualistic in their play, both defensively and offensively. The Kings just aren't up to playing a veteran team that plays as a team, has been with each other for years, and has good talent to boot. When the Kings play the Suns, there is no such excuse. It would be nice to see the Kings win against them by double digits.
It's almost as if people who bash people who think negatively about our front office and coaching staff don't realize that we haven't been a competitive team since 2006. To put that in perspective, the first Iphone was 1 year away, The Dark Knight was 2 years away, and the death of Michael Jackson was 3 years away. I don't think these posters are trolling so much as they are literally losing their minds and grasping at straws for any sign of hope or light at the end of the tunnel. Every attempt at a rebuild has been botched by this team and this is the first year it has looked like it was going in the correct direction. Yet instead of doing what a typical rebuilding team does, which is to give as much time and experience to your youngest most promising players as possible, we are running an outdated offense around veteran players who have no business being in our long term plans in an attempt to win as many games as possible. Whether this proves beneficial or not has yet to be seen, but it's clear that it isn't a direction many people are content with seeing.
When 95-97% of a persons posts are attack mode against a Joerger or Vlade....posting the same thing over and over, seems may think that person is a troll. When people post other things while keeping that negative view of Joerger and or Vlade,or whomever, then it's less trollsy. Most people on here are in the latter category....some are not.
I really don't like the way you closed with that paragraph. As if to say if someone doesn't agree with Joerger or what the FO has done, they're instantly considered a complainer, hater and belittler. Why should there be a negative label placed upon someone for voicing their opinion of the team? If you don't agree with something the team is doing, you aren't hating or belittling anyone. You just simply don't agree with how the team is being ran.
No one expects this team to be winning a bunch of games or making the playoffs. We want to see the young guys developing. We should be complaining that a certain young guy isn't ready for the spotlight and is getting too much playing time. We should be complaining that a certain young guy is too selfish and holding the ball for too long. We should be complaining about how these guys are making dumb mistakes and don't know where to be on the court.
We shouldn't be complaining about their lack of playing time, confusing G League call ups/send downs, why they're running a system that works against their strengths and why they're just dumping the ball to ZBo every possession while standing around watching. The complaints in the paragraph above should be the complaints of a developing team. The complaints in this paragraph defy logic because they are the exact opposite of what should be done to develop these guys.
Our main guy Fox looks absolutely terrible out there. You wouldn't know it because everyone keeps saying they aren't worried about him and this and that but you better be prepared for this guy to possibly not turn out to be one of the better Kings players because his value has dropped a lot since we drafted him. I think it's about 70/30 bad coaching compared to bad play but either way our star is playing very poorly compared to the other lottery picks and that's something to be concerned about. I'm not saying he's never going to develop but the odds are starting to slip lower and lower as time goes on. Personally, I don't believe it's his fault right at the moment because I think he's been mishandled more than anyone on the squad, including Skal.
No one expects this team to be winning a bunch of games or making the playoffs. We want to see the young guys developing. We should be complaining that a certain young guy isn't ready for the spotlight and is getting too much playing time. We should be complaining that a certain young guy is too selfish and holding the ball for too long. We should be complaining about how these guys are making dumb mistakes and don't know where to be on the court.
We shouldn't be complaining about their lack of playing time, confusing G League call ups/send downs, why they're running a system that works against their strengths and why they're just dumping the ball to ZBo every possession while standing around watching. The complaints in the paragraph above should be the complaints of a developing team. The complaints in this paragraph defy logic because they are the exact opposite of what should be done to develop these guys.
Our main guy Fox looks absolutely terrible out there. You wouldn't know it because everyone keeps saying they aren't worried about him and this and that but you better be prepared for this guy to possibly not turn out to be one of the better Kings players because his value has dropped a lot since we drafted him. I think it's about 70/30 bad coaching compared to bad play but either way our star is playing very poorly compared to the other lottery picks and that's something to be concerned about. I'm not saying he's never going to develop but the odds are starting to slip lower and lower as time goes on. Personally, I don't believe it's his fault right at the moment because I think he's been mishandled more than anyone on the squad, including Skal.
Last edited by a moderator:
I dont understand way we spend so much time talking about each other, when we should be talking about the Kings. Wether its bricklayer or vladizzle it seems like some people around here are more motivated to trash those guys or other users than they are talking about the Team. This board is extremely quick with labeling users and if you happen to have an opinion which upsets some people the bully thing will get going quickly.
Like Celticsfan wrote- there are good reasons to be critical as a Kings fan right now.
Like Celticsfan wrote- there are good reasons to be critical as a Kings fan right now.
I've been pretty dismal this season as well and I used to be 100% optimistic even though this team has been "lowly" and "struggling" for 10 years.
Most of the sad thoughts are about things that can't be changed now. Like, what if none of our young talents develop into a superstar? The other big one: we have no draft pick next season. This is catastrophic for a rebuilding team. But can't help that either.
I think the people like me are just worried cuz we love this team. We can't bear the thought of another failed rebuild, yet we think about it every time the game is won by Zach Randolph or we're down 12 with 9 minutes left in the first quarter.
I don't think crying over spilled milk helps until it comes time to fire or trade someone. Which brings me to Joerger.
The two major gripes with him are:
He plays the Vets too much
His system is for post-players
The vets playing is easily defended by the need for rookies to have confidence. If we had 1 win right now, the development of our young players would be retarded.
As for his system, I have to guess at this one. I think he is teaching Defense first and the fundamentals one at a time. I just don't think he's reached the "modern phase" in their training, but it will come. Teach them the most important things first, especially those that you know best.
Most of the sad thoughts are about things that can't be changed now. Like, what if none of our young talents develop into a superstar? The other big one: we have no draft pick next season. This is catastrophic for a rebuilding team. But can't help that either.
I think the people like me are just worried cuz we love this team. We can't bear the thought of another failed rebuild, yet we think about it every time the game is won by Zach Randolph or we're down 12 with 9 minutes left in the first quarter.
I don't think crying over spilled milk helps until it comes time to fire or trade someone. Which brings me to Joerger.
The two major gripes with him are:
He plays the Vets too much
His system is for post-players
The vets playing is easily defended by the need for rookies to have confidence. If we had 1 win right now, the development of our young players would be retarded.
As for his system, I have to guess at this one. I think he is teaching Defense first and the fundamentals one at a time. I just don't think he's reached the "modern phase" in their training, but it will come. Teach them the most important things first, especially those that you know best.
Fox just looks completely scared. He was somewhat successful with his style of play early in the season, but then he realized the NBA has it figured out already. He has effectively become neutered and is unsure of himself.
The great thing is though, that to defend someone who is that good at driving means there are weaknesses in other areas. He can drive and dish, stop and pop, or shoot a 3. If he can figure at least 2 of those 3 things out, you have a franchise player. If he can do all 3, now we're talkin.
He can also draw a foul to change the pace. He can defend at a high level with his speed. He has the innate tools that a ring-chasing team needs.
The great thing is though, that to defend someone who is that good at driving means there are weaknesses in other areas. He can drive and dish, stop and pop, or shoot a 3. If he can figure at least 2 of those 3 things out, you have a franchise player. If he can do all 3, now we're talkin.
He can also draw a foul to change the pace. He can defend at a high level with his speed. He has the innate tools that a ring-chasing team needs.
Look there is basically one guy on here who does nothing but complain about Joerger and the front office, I doubt he even really cares, he just wants attention. He will twist anything Joerger says or does, even the most trivial thing, to suit his own personal agenda. He hijacks threads repeating some variation of the same old spiel over and over. It accomplishes nothing but taking up space. I don't have a problem with legitimate criticism. But make your point and let it go. He does not. Same thing over and over. He is enabled by people defending his kind of behavior because they may sympathize with some of his opinions. I didn't start out talking about any of the people that responded to my comments, or at least any I have seen since yesterday, because I have put him on ignore, but some others wanted to try on the shoe and loudly proclaim "It fits". Let him hijack all the threads he wants. He's sitting back laughing at all of us right now. My bad, I made his day for him. I'm done with it.
He looks so lost out there. Forcing entry passes, driving into traffic, camping at the 3 point line even though he is a bad shooter, shooting unnecessary floaters because he doesn't want to get blocked, etc. His confidence is gone right now. He doesn't even look like he belongs in the NBA. I really hope he can correct himself. It'd be terrible to watch a guy who wanted to be here and who we all wanted to be here not pan out.
Some teams can really stop the Kings offense in their tracks. That especially true in the 4th quarter. Some teams have an end of game defense which is different and more intense. The Raptors certainly were able to do that. It is hard to win in the NBA with 20 point or under production in the 4th.
Joerger is the least of the Kings' problems.
Joerger is the least of the Kings' problems.