Vet free agents and filling out the roster

[Mike]

Despite the many opinions above that we should no spend much n vets and get vets that are reasonable backups and mentors, I think this emphasis is wrong and not useful FO a team developing young players. Spend bucks to get the best vets available at PF, SF and PG maybe easing back a little at PG because we have two capable rooks who are closer to big minute guys. It's best for the team, the coach and rooks that we have quality and real competition. I believe this can be done without spending inordinate bucks. Let's push the players and the opposition. Makes for better, fine tuned team and more quality minutes for our rooks. Spend.

The issue with spending at PG and PF is that if you spend big bucks on free agents - let's say Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap - then those two guys walk straight into the starting line up. Fox and Skal end up coming off the bench. Does that help their development at this pivotal stage in their career? Not at all, it actually hurts their development because the place where you really learn how to put things into motion is on the court playing meaningful minutes. Anyone can knock down shots for fun in practice, but can they do it when the pressures on? Can they make that game changing or game sealing play? Well, if we turn to high priced vets we'll probably not know what our youngsters can or can't do because they won't be playing at the death, it will be the vets.

Now perhaps you were suggesting veterans at a Darren Collison like level, someone good enough to start and keep Fox on his toes. But again, with that starting price it leaves coach with an awkward decision: start the guy you've just paid or start the guy you drafted fifth overall. What happens if Fox starts slow, do you bench him for Collison? What if Collison starts and plays so well that he limits Fox's minutes and in turn hinders his development?

I do agree that we need veterans on this roster, but I feel they need to be there to help support and aid the development of the young players. This team needs to turn over the starting PG, SG, PF, and C positions to our young players. If we spend, we need to spend on a SF that can be part of our future alongside those young players (e.g. Otto Porter as one example), not spend on veterans that can block playing time for our young players. Those major minutes need to go to our young players, not veterans that aren't going to make us title contenders. The youngsters in time might get us to that level, and for them to get to that level, they need to be the priority and supported by good solid veterans like Temple, Tolliver and co.

 

[twslam07]

You are entitled to your opinion but you don't have to be rude about it.

You are entitled to your opinion about thinking my comment was rude.

 

[Blob]

Kings as the 6th seed? Homerism at it's finest. Take a step back and really think about what you just said. This team is going to have 9 rookies and 2nd year players. We have good potential, but that's all it is at this point. They still need to learn how to play at the NBA level. That takes time.

Did you miss the question mark? Are you having a bad day? It seems so. You don't even know what we have yet. Neither do I. We haven't even seen the rookies in Summer League. We don't even know what we will get in free agency this summer or trades. And you already want to declare a 25 win season? What a joke! The point I made above is that the West is in decline. I watched a lot of teams in the bottom of the West to end the season because I was rooting for them to win. They let me down. There are few formidable teams in the West.

And you know what it doesn't even matter what you or I think. It matters what the players think. And there was a collective confidence and resolve that they could play together and run their offense and get good shots. There's guys in the half court including Skal, Willie and Buddy that are capable of smart interior passes. We add to this with guys like Fox, Mason maybe Millsap and you have a team that is compelling and hard to defend. Over the last 10 years we have been so woeful because we have had few guys who can initiate offense in the half court. It took Boogie six years to get better than 1:1 assist to turnovers.

The year we had Rondo he was the only guy on that team who could create a good shot for a teammate. Then we had to bear witness to guys like Ben, Affalo, Nik. Marco, T-Rob and Jason Scrub Thompson who did nothing to facilitate cohesiveness in the half court. That is slowly changing with the talent we are putting together. This is called synergy. With synergy you can do great things! But if you automatically conclude just because the teams is composed of a bunch of young guys that a 50 to 60 loss season is predestined, then you would be oblivious to this fact.

I am not suggesting the Kings are a playoff team or a 6th seed (hence the question mark). I am strongly suggesting that there is a reason the games are played, the West is in decline, the West is wide open, and perhaps we should wait to see how the summer plays out before writing off the season and rolling over like a dog who wants his belly scratched as you are seemingly want to do.

 

[pshn80]

The issue with spending at PG and PF is that if you spend big bucks on free agents - let's say Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap - then those two guys walk straight into the starting line up. Fox and Skal end up coming off the bench. Does that help their development at this pivotal stage in their career? Not at all, it actually hurts their development because the place where you really learn how to put things into motion is on the court playing meaningful minutes. Anyone can knock down shots for fun in practice, but can they do it when the pressures on? Can they make that game changing or game sealing play? Well, if we turn to high priced vets we'll probably not know what our youngsters can or can't do because they won't be playing at the death, it will be the vets.

Now perhaps you were suggesting veterans at a Darren Collison like level, someone good enough to start and keep Fox on his toes. But again, with that starting price it leaves coach with an awkward decision: start the guy you've just paid or start the guy you drafted fifth overall. What happens if Fox starts slow, do you bench him for Collison? What if Collison starts and plays so well that he limits Fox's minutes and in turn hinders his development?

I do agree that we need veterans on this roster, but I feel they need to be there to help support and aid the development of the young players. This team needs to turn over the starting PG, SG, PF, and C positions to our young players. If we spend, we need to spend on a SF that can be part of our future alongside those young players (e.g. Otto Porter as one example), not spend on veterans that can block playing time for our young players. Those major minutes need to go to our young players, not veterans that aren't going to make us title contenders. The youngsters in time might get us to that level, and for them to get to that level, they need to be the priority and supported by good solid veterans like Temple, Tolliver and co.

I understand the merits of your points but have to disagree wth your emphasis. It's not "big bucks" guys I'm suggesting it's big quality guys I'm suggesting. Put a team out that compete with rooks and vets. I's OK to take out a good quality vet and give a rising rook more minutes. That kind of a decision is right up our good caches alley. He and the layers would shine in that setting and as coach has said "win, make it tough on the opponent".

Edit: if this team and are rooks develop we don't have to stand on our head to get a high draft pick next year.

 

[twslam07]

Did you miss the question mark? Are you having a bad day? It seems so. You don't even know what we have yet. Neither do I. We haven't even seen the rookies in Summer League. We don't even know what we will get in free agency this summer or trades. And you already want to declare a 25 win season? What a joke! The point I made above is that the West is in decline. I watched a lot of teams in the bottom of the West to end the season because I was rooting for them to win. They let me down. There are few formidable teams in the West.

And you know what it doesn't even matter what you or I think. It matters what the players think. And there was a collective confidence and resolve that they could play together and run their offense and get good shots. There's guys in the half court including Skal, Willie and Buddy that are capable of smart interior passes. We add to this with guys like Fox, Mason maybe Millsap and you have a team that is compelling and hard to defend. Over the last 10 years we have been so woeful because we have had few guys who can initiate offense in the half court. It took Boogie six years to get better than 1:1 assist to turnovers.

The year we had Rondo he was the only guy on that team who could create a good shot for a teammate. Then we had to bear witness to guys like Ben, Affalo, Nik. Marco, T-Rob and Jason Scrub Thompson who did nothing to facilitate cohesiveness in the half court. That is slowly changing with the talent we are putting together. This is called synergy. With synergy you can do great things! But if you automatically conclude just because the teams is composed of a bunch of young guys that a 50 to 60 loss season is predestined, then you would be oblivious to this fact.

I am not suggesting the Kings are a playoff team or a 6th seed (hence the question mark). I am strongly suggesting that there is a reason the games are played, the West is in decline, the West is wide open, and perhaps we should wait to see how the summer plays out before writing off the season and rolling over like a dog who wants his belly scratched as you are seemingly want to do.

I didn't realize I was declaring a 25 win season. What I have said is that we should be maximizing our chances at finishing towards the bottom because WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE HAVE. Fox could end up doing what Dunn did last year. Giles could never see the court. Cauley-Stein could never develop his rim protection, reboudning, and jumpshot. We don't KNOW if any of these guys will be stars.

So then I'll ask you this, why would you limit our chances at finding a star by signing a guy like Millsap? Sure you can say Millsap is a star, but he's not going to be a star when it comes time to be serious about competing for a deep playoff run/title. What you are doing by signing a guy like Millsap is potentially taking away our chance at finding a franchise player and thus becoming a treadmill team. Congratulations, you did it!

When you don't know who will pan out, who will be stars, who will be your franchise players, etc., you maintain your cap flexibility, continue to collect young assets, and try to limit the veteran talent you have on your roster to keep your own pick as high as possible. Until a couple of those guys hit, you stay patient. That is how you build a formidable team. That is how you get out of 30-40 win mediocrity.

And if you are so confident that Fox, Hield, Giles, & Labissiere will be stars, why would you still not want to add yet another potential star in next year's draft to make us that much better! Are you scared of having too much talent? How awesome would it be to have Fox/Hield/M. Porter/Laissiere/Giles as a starting five with all of them hitting. How dare I recommend that we put ourselves in a position to have another young stud on this roster. Shame on me!

 

[Blob]

The issue with spending at PG and PF is that if you spend big bucks on free agents - let's say Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap - then those two guys walk straight into the starting line up. Fox and Skal end up coming off the bench. Does that help their development at this pivotal stage in their career? Not at all, it actually hurts their development because the place where you really learn how to put things into motion is on the court playing meaningful minutes. Anyone can knock down shots for fun in practice, but can they do it when the pressures on? Can they make that game changing or game sealing play? Well, if we turn to high priced vets we'll probably not know what our youngsters can or can't do because they won't be playing at the death, it will be the vets.

Now perhaps you were suggesting veterans at a Darren Collison like level, someone good enough to start and keep Fox on his toes. But again, with that starting price it leaves coach with an awkward decision: start the guy you've just paid or start the guy you drafted fifth overall. What happens if Fox starts slow, do you bench him for Collison? What if Collison starts and plays so well that he limits Fox's minutes and in turn hinders his development?

I do agree that we need veterans on this roster, but I feel they need to be there to help support and aid the development of the young players. This team needs to turn over the starting PG, SG, PF, and C positions to our young players. If we spend, we need to spend on a SF that can be part of our future alongside those young players (e.g. Otto Porter as one example), not spend on veterans that can block playing time for our young players. Those major minutes need to go to our young players, not veterans that aren't going to make us title contenders. The youngsters in time might get us to that level, and for them to get to that level, they need to be the priority and supported by good solid veterans like Temple, Tolliver and co.

If we are prudent about it, I don't think any veterans we add will "block" playing time of youngsters with Joerger dispersing playing time based on performance, time and situation and wanting to see these young players grow at an optimal rate. I don't see us adding Teague. That's not going to happen. Because Teague and his agent are going to want to sign with team where he play 30+ MPG. We are not going to be able to accommodate him in this regard. Millsap is another story. Millsap sharing playing time with Skal at PF and play spot minutes at SF is a compelling proposition. Then you only have to ask Skal to perform for 20-25 MPG and develop into the stud he can be, with minutes increased up and decreased down based on his development and performance. There's more need for a player like Millsap as a hub offensively and defensively. Teague is not a good fit. Millsap is a tremendous fit. I wish he was 28 instead of 32, but I think his professionalism and savvy as a player can prolong his effectiveness.

 

[Kingsroots]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...um=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national

With the news that John Wall is trying to get PG to Washington, could it give us an avenue to either Oubre Jr or Porter? If the Wizards are serious about acquiring George they'll need to shed salary. With Porter being a rfa I think we can be the conduit and maybe without giving up much but taking more salary back. Might be too optimistic though.

 

[twslam07]

What about a trade with Toronto?

Kings Get: Carroll, Joseph, & 2019 1st (Top 3 protected)
Raptors Get: 2nd round pick (top 55 protected)

Why for the Kings? Gives them two hard working vets who value defense that Joerger can use to bring the rookies along slowly. Since they are just role players, they shouldn't really improve our win total that much. And we get a 2019 1st round pick. Also, Carroll & Joseph would both be off the books for the 2019 offseason (the offseason before we will have to pay any of the rookies/sophomores which allows us max cap space for big FA signings).
Why for the Raptors? That gives the raptors ~$40 mil in cap space with the following players under contract:

PG - Wright / VanVleet
SG - DeRozan
SF - Anunoby
PF - Siakim
C - Valanciunas / Nogueira / Poeltl

If I were them, I'd try to move Valanciunas for value at another position/cap space and let Noguira/Poeltl handle the C position at a very discounted rate. Nogueira had the 7th highest RPM among Centers last year and had a +6.0 On/Off. That would be another $15.5 mil they can spend elsewhere. Then you're looking at being able to add some big pieces next to Lowry/DeRozan/???/???/Nogueira (Hayward, Iguodala, Porter, Griffin, Ibaka, & Millsap)

 

[Blob]

I didn't realize I was declaring a 25 win season. What I have said is that we should be maximizing our chances at finishing towards the bottom because WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE HAVE. Fox could end up doing what Dunn did last year. Giles could never see the court. Cauley-Stein could never develop his rim protection, reboudning, and jumpshot. We don't KNOW if any of these guys will be stars.

So then I'll ask you this, why would you limit our chances at finding a star by signing a guy like Millsap? Sure you can say Millsap is a star, but he's not going to be a star when it comes time to be serious about competing for a deep playoff run/title. What you are doing by signing a guy like Millsap is potentially taking away our chance at finding a franchise player and thus becoming a treadmill team. Congratulations, you did it!

When you don't know who will pan out, who will be stars, who will be your franchise players, etc., you maintain your cap flexibility, continue to collect young assets, and try to limit the veteran talent you have on your roster to keep your own pick as high as possible. Until a couple of those guys hit, you stay patient. That is how you build a formidable team. That is how you get out of 30-40 win mediocrity.

And if you are so confident that Fox, Hield, Giles, & Labissiere will be stars, why would you still not want to add yet another potential star in next year's draft to make us that much better! Are you scared of having too much talent? How awesome would it be to have Fox/Hield/M. Porter/Laissiere/Giles as a starting five with all of them hitting. How dare I recommend that we put ourselves in a position to have another young stud on this roster. Shame on me!

"We should maximize our chances at finishing towards the bottom" ???? That's another way of saying we should tank. I vehemently disagree. Tanking is not a good idea. In fact it is terrible idea.

The Suns and Mavs and Knicks tanked hard. Look where it got them. Nowhere. Suns dropped 2 spots. Mavs picked 9th. Knicks picked 8th. Kings won their fair share down the stretch and the Basketball Gods shined a light down on us to grant to us the one player we needed more than any other in this years draft. This was a blessing. De'Aaron Fox was a blessing! The PG who will take us somewhere special over the next 10 years! What a joyous turn of fate! And you want to celebrate this occurrence with more intentional losing?!? We honor this blessing by venturing forth and competing with the highest degree of heart body and soul....A decade of futility is long enough. The best way to win in the future is to strive to win in the present. Profound notion I know.

There is another problem with your post... You seemingly have a fundamental distrust of our coach. I don't. I think Joerger can dispense playing time to veterans and rookies and 2nd year players to maximize our competitiveness and development individually and collectively. That's his job as a coach. Joerger has proved his merit and competency in Memphis and in the D League and elsewhere. He has an impressive track record of success. He didn't just fall off the turnip truck. He had Conley as a player. Now he has a Fox, another lefty PG who is faster and longer and will face many of the same challenges as Conley who turned himself into the highest paid player in NBA history.

Excuse me if I bet on Joerger. Excuse me if I think he knows is best for our prized rookie and his accelerated development curve. Here's your problem: You have already concluded next year is a "lost cause". Whether you project 25 wins or not or less or more is not the point. You have already concluded next season is about getting the best draft spot you can get. I don't concur with that defeatist perspective. 2017-18 is about excitement, competitiveness, cohesiveness, transforming the culture after the weightiness and toxicity of Boogie wherever that leads. This is exciting! This is the thrill of discovery! This is not about calling the season off before it begins. This is where you and I differ. I am not throwing in the towel. I say wipe your brow with the towel and go slay the opponent. I could go on and on but I have to clean my house. Check back later when you want me to drop more truth bombs

I leave you with this: The Kings have been bad for a long time. This long time has often coincided with Boogie. Boogie has been eradicated. His narcissistic personality and ego has been eradicated. This may be enough to alter our fortunes. Why should we not pursue this potential in his absence?!? Why should we delay success until 2018-19??? There's no time like the present. This is how winners think. I know so because I am one.

 

[LA King Fan II]

I agree. Tanking is a bad idea. It's as simple as that.

 

[kingsboi]

I think you missed the point. Farmar is the type of player that won't take minutes away from Fox or Mason. He'd be the 3rd string guy who only gets emergency or garbage minutes. Also, I thought Farmar played well for us during the exhibition season. You bring in Collison or Lawson, they're going to expect minutes. Yeah, we might lose a lot of games with two rookie PG's getting the bulk of the minutes, but the point of next season is get the rookies experience. If that ends up getting us win's, great! But if not, it doesn't matter.

I hardly missed the point. I simply stated Lawson and Collison because they've done more in the league rather than a Farmar. Why not learn from guards that are better than you rather than one who is a journeyman? Besides, if one of Lawson and Collison do decide to sign here, they know exactly what's going on here, they aren't senile. 5 rookies, 3 sophomores and one junior are on this squad.

 

[dude12]

It actually wouldn't. Why can't these low level veterans take pressure off the rookies? Why do the veterans we sign have to be good to take the pressure off the rookies? Bring in veterans that are hard working and don't quit, and let them take the punishment if you are worried about the rookie's confidence.

You trying to develop a losing mentality or are you trying to put our young guys in quality minutes with games on the line. Winning 18 games with our kids and low level vets is a terrible,way to go about it. I mean, it's a team full of 1st and 2nd year guys....and a few role playing vets.

Spurs seem to develop guys while winning. What would DeJounte Murray be like if he got stuck playing 28-30 minutes a game on a losing team? Ben McLemore

 

[kingjatt]

1. No big name free agent who can move us into playoff position is coming here. Do we want to sign Milsap/anyone at this point to a long 150 mil contract to win 35 games? Thats ridiculous.

2. No free agent is going to make us a playoff team period unless KD or maybe Steph decide they want to take on the challenge(good luck).

3. No other team with 9 1-2 year young guys in the rotation who have not played a single game together has gone out and paid prime vets and actually been successful. (Unless 2-3 top 10 guys decide to collude and come together in Sacramento...a fairytale.)

You never advocate a tank job. You always push for playing tough and hard while instructing the coaches, trainers etc to do anything they can to win...as always.

As management you have to be smart and accept reality. Our big chip is next years draft pick and perhaps other picks we may acquire via cap rental. Those acquired picks don't necessarily have to be made they can be used to trade for a star as boston/t-wolves are doing.

Boston/T-Wolves/Philly have put themselves in positions of power by acquiring assets until management felt they could truly contend, then they swung for the star and did so in a very patient and calculated manor. Notice how Philly wont even swing for a star yet and they more of a talent base on paper than us, they are STILL reluctant because they have not seen exactly what they have.

These teams suffered with losing (sans boston) but can now dictate which star they want via trade instead of praying someone jumps ship and comes to them. Free agency for trying to get cornerstone players is a joke these days anyways, Sacramento has almost zero chance to get someone via free agency that actually moves the needle.

Ignore free agency for now (for the most part) and develop your program/winning habits, show those free agents down the line what we have and maybe we get the Iggy type piece to help make us into a monster. But this is NOT the year, and thats okay, Ive suffered for 11 years, another 2-4 will not kill me if done the right way. Keep trying to load up via the draft/savy trades until we get some sort of proven core established.

 

[jcassio]

Jordan Farmar has a history with Coach Joeger too. He fits the bill as a reliable 3rd point guard that could be available for the vet min.
He could be a good pick up.

Farmar might be just what we need. Competent enough to start at the beginning of the season, and then give most of his minutes up to the rookies as they prove themselves worthy of bigger roles. Best case scenario is he ends up the 3rd PG by the end of the season. And if we lose one of them to injury, he's capable enough to step back in to the larger role.
I also liked the Mario Chalmers and Beno Udrih suggestions. I would also be OK with Collison or Lawson if they understood (and agreed to) their roles. I think that's key for whoever the Kings bring in. Worst case scenario is we get a veteran who stews over not getting enough minutes, doesn't value the mentor role, and upsets the good chemistry.

 

[twslam07]

"We should maximize our chances at finishing towards the bottom" ???? That's another way of saying we should tank. I vehemently disagree. Tanking is not a good idea. In fact it is terrible idea.

You've always been good at misrepresenting posts. Why should I expect anything different...

Tanking has negative connotations because there are individuals who have a certain image of what tanking actually is. The Front Office should be staffing this team with low level veterans who can mentor this team and allow Joerger to throw them to the fire to help develop the rookies (all while keeping our odds at landing a top pick high). The Coach will coach these kids to play hard and to win every game. There is no throwing games in my scenario. There is only strategic moves by the front office to help your rookies develop and help you get a top pick next year.

The Suns and Mavs and Knicks tanked hard. Look where it got them. Nowhere. Suns dropped 2 spots. Mavs picked 9th. Knicks picked 8th. Kings won their fair share down the stretch and the Basketball Gods shined a light down on us to grant to us the one player we needed more than any other in this years draft. This was a blessing. De'Aaron Fox was a blessing! The PG who will take us somewhere special over the next 10 years! What a joyous turn of fate! And you want to celebrate this occurrence with more intentional losing?!? We honor this blessing by venturing forth and competing with the highest degree of heart body and soul....A decade of futility is long enough. The best way to win in the future is to strive to win in the present. Profound notion I know.

Ahh that's the impatience setting in! That's how you screw up a great situation. Leave the emotion and knee jerk reactions at home if you want to talk about front office decisions.

Focusing on the exception is not how you get ahead. You play the odds. Citing exceptions as proof gives you little to stand on.

Who said anything about intentional losing?! There you go putting words in my mouth. The Front Office simply doesn't bring in top talent to mess up the pick next year. Tell Joerger to coach the kids hard and to win! Install that winning mentality from the coaching level.

There is another problem with your post... You seemingly have a fundamental distrust of our coach. I don't. I think Joerger can dispense playing time to veterans and rookies and 2nd year players to maximize our competitiveness and development individually and collectively. That's his job as a coach. Joerger has proved his merit and competency in Memphis and in the D League and elsewhere. He has an impressive track record of success. He didn't just fall off the turnip truck. He had Conley as a player. Now he has a Fox, another lefty PG who is faster and longer and will face many of the same challenges as Conley who turned himself into the highest paid player in NBA history.

Very, very incorrect. I would say that I trust our coach more than you. I trust our coach to be able to develop our young guys in the absence of a Millsap which is contrary to your beliefs. Why don't you trust our coach to be able to do his job?

Excuse me if I bet on Joerger. Excuse me if I think he knows is best for our prized rookie and his accelerated development curve. Here's your problem: You have already concluded next year is a "lost cause". Whether you project 25 wins or not or less or more is not the point. You have already concluded next season is about getting the best draft spot you can get. I don't concur with that defeatist perspective. 2017-18 is about excitement, competitiveness, cohesiveness, transforming the culture after the weightiness and toxicity of Boogie wherever that leads. This is exciting! This is the thrill of discovery! This is not about calling the season off before it begins. This is where you and I differ. I am not throwing in the towel. I say wipe your brow with the towel and go slay the opponent. I could go on and on but I have to clean my house. Check back later when you want me to drop more truth bombs

Incorrect again! You're starting to make this a habit

Next year is not JUST about landing a good pick. It's ALSO about developing our young players. Unlike you, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. You're focus on accomplishing one goal. Mine is on accomplishing two goals. Sorry mine is better! It's math!

Everything you say about competing is not something I disagree with. The coach and team can compete as hard as they want. I encourage them to do so. Not signing Millsap isn't going to send a message to the young guys to take it easy and not try because they will have Joerger in their face telling them otherwise.

I leave you with this: The Kings have been bad for a long time. This long time has often coincided with Boogie. Boogie has been eradicated. His narcissistic personality and ego has been eradicated. This may be enough to alter our fortunes. Why should we not pursue this potential in his absence?!? Why should we delay success until 2018-19??? There's no time like the present. This is how winners think. I know so because I am one.

Again, you make the mistake thinking that I don't want the team to compete hard. If they compete hard and Fox, Hield, & Labissiere lead us to #5 seed...Great! We have found stars to move forward with and we can then use our cap space to surround them with the right talent the following year, but to take that chance now and lock up long term salary while not KNOWING they are capable of that is reckless because you reduce flexibility if they don't become what we hope and we potentially miss out on another star next year.

Have Joerger play to win and instill that in the players. In the meantime, the front office will avoid adding in good talent until we know which/if any of our young guys have what it takes to be a star/franchise player.

 

[twslam07]

You trying to develop a losing mentality or are you trying to put our young guys in quality minutes with games on the line. Winning 18 games with our kids and low level vets is a terrible,way to go about it. I mean, it's a team full of 1st and 2nd year guys....and a few role playing vets.

Spurs seem to develop guys while winning. What would DeJounte Murray be like if he got stuck playing 28-30 minutes a game on a losing team? Ben McLemore

Why is it so hard for some people to comprehend balance? It is not one or the other. You can develop a winning mentality in the young guys by having Joerger coach to win every game. You can also make sure you end up with a high pick by not bringing aboard old veteran talent that would help produce more wins.

So what have we done? We now have developed a winning/paying hard at all costs mentality in our young guys all the while giving us another shot at a star next year.

 

[kingsfan1984]

No body is calling for the coach to do anything but try to win as best he can with the roster he has. I expect nothing else from him and the team. The young guys showed last year they are capable of being competitive on their own. I want to watch them try as hard as they can to qin ever y nigjt and will be ecstatic with each win...but only when its due to them playing well and the reward earning a hard win. Last year there was a few games that Collison playec fantaaatic in and we won but it didny feel like anything special and the win not neing worth the worae dract odds as long term it meant nothing. Compared to games we won due to Skal and Hield i hadno problem losing a spot or 2 in the draft because ot meant our future was bright with them.
Same tbing appliea now. If win on the backs of our young guys and loose a few spot s in the draft as a result them im fine qith it as it means our young talent is better than ever yone elses. But if we sign 1 or 2 solid vets that earn victories on their backs it will feel like shooting oursleves in tbe foot with each win. And IF we sign good vets i would anticipate tbis as i want Joeger to do all he can do to win. Give him the tools he will use them. But long term its foolish if your goal is to be a championship level team. Instead you increase the odds we are right back in the fight for the 8th seed for the next 7 to 8 years all over again. So don't give Joeger the proven older vet tools in the first place!

 

[Blob]

You've always been good at misrepresenting posts. Why should I expect anything different...

Tanking has negative connotations because there are individuals who have a certain image of what tanking actually is. The Front Office should be staffing this team with low level veterans who can mentor this team and allow Joerger to throw them to the fire to help develop the rookies (all while keeping our odds at landing a top pick high). The Coach will coach these kids to play hard and to win every game. There is no throwing games in my scenario. There is only strategic moves by the front office to help your rookies develop and help you get a top pick next year.



Ahh that's the impatience setting in! That's how you screw up a great situation. Leave the emotion and knee jerk reactions at home if you want to talk about front office decisions.

Focusing on the exception is not how you get ahead. You play the odds. Citing exceptions as proof gives you little to stand on.

Who said anything about intentional losing?! There you go putting words in my mouth. The Front Office simply doesn't bring in top talent to mess up the pick next year. Tell Joerger to coach the kids hard and to win! Install that winning mentality from the coaching level.



Very, very incorrect. I would say that I trust our coach more than you. I trust our coach to be able to develop our young guys in the absence of a Millsap which is contrary to your beliefs. Why don't you trust our coach to be able to do his job?



Incorrect again! You're starting to make this a habit

Next year is not JUST about landing a good pick. It's ALSO about developing our young players. Unlike you, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. You're focus on accomplishing one goal. Mine is on accomplishing two goals. Sorry mine is better! It's math!

Everything you say about competing is not something I disagree with. The coach and team can compete as hard as they want. I encourage them to do so. Not signing Millsap isn't going to send a message to the young guys to take it easy and not try because they will have Joerger in their face telling them otherwise.



Again, you make the mistake thinking that I don't want the team to compete hard. If they compete hard and Fox, Hield, & Labissiere lead us to #5 seed...Great! We have found stars to move forward with and we can then use our cap space to surround them with the right talent the following year, but to take that chance now and lock up long term salary while not KNOWING they are capable of that is reckless because you reduce flexibility if they don't become what we hope and we potentially miss out on another star next year.

Have Joerger play to win and instill that in the players. In the meantime, the front office will avoid adding in good talent until we know which/if any of our young guys have what it takes to be a star/franchise player.

Excuse me but you said we should "maximize our chances of finishing towards the bottom". Don't try to twist YOUR statement or contextualize retroactively. What you basically said was our Kings should intentionally lose as many games as possible. You cannot undo this statement. Words matter. I am paying attention to your words. You want us to lose intentionally. The majority of Kings fans (including myself) think this to be bogus assertion. We have experienced enough losing. For a decade since C-Webb and Bibby. It is time to win. It's long overdo. I don't care about 2018-2019. I care about 2017-18. This is NOT about instant gratification it is about reversing a long pattern of ineptitude and incompetence. The sooner the better. The best way to win in the future is to win now.

 

[twslam07]

Excuse me but you said we should "maximize our chances of finishing towards the bottom". Don't try to twist YOUR statement or contextualize retroactively. What you basically said was our Kings should intentionally lose as many games as possible. You cannot undo this statement. Words matter. I am paying attention to your words. You want us to lose intentionally. The majority of Kings fans (including myself) think this to be a prosperous and bogus assertion. We have experienced enough losing. For a decade since C-Webb and Bibby. It is time to win. Its long overdo. I don't care about 2018-2019. I care about 2017-18. This is NOT about instant gratification it is about reversing a long pattern of ineptitude and incompetence. The sooner the better. 2018 lottery prospects be damned!!!! I say it again the best way to win in the future is to win now. You would be well advised to adopt this attitude.

Might have been a poor choice of words, but no that is not what I mean. Feel free to try and force me into opinion if you'd like. It doesn't change my stance especially after I wrote paragraph after paragraph about how I feel about the situation. Somehow those got neglected. Interesting how that works....

Your recommendation is wrong. I've shown that here. You want to improve your shot at being a great team in the future, then you follow my path. You want to increase your odds of mediocrity, follow your plan. I still haven't seen anything from you that proves my idea would make us a less competitive team when it comes time for our young guys to actually compete deep in the playoffs. Still waiting!

Maybe one day you will start to see things clearly. Fans are impatient in general. They want instant gratification and to be entertained. Unfortunately, you have fallen sick to this way of thinking which is fine! But if you want to jump on a forum and talk about what our Front Office should do, check your impatient & emotional responses at the door.

 

[LA King Fan II]

Might have been a poor choice of words, but no that is not what I mean. Feel free to try and force me into opinion if you'd like. It doesn't change my stance especially after I wrote paragraph after paragraph about how I feel about the situation. Somehow those got neglected. Interesting how that works....

Your recommendation is wrong. I've shown that here. You want to improve your shot at being a great team in the future, then you follow my path. You want to increase your odds of mediocrity, follow your plan. I still haven't seen anything from you that proves my idea would make us a less competitive team when it comes time for our young guys to actually compete deep in the playoffs. Still waiting!

Maybe one day you will start to see things clearly. Fans are impatient in general. They want instant gratification and to be entertained. Unfortunately, you have fallen sick to this way of thinking which is fine! But if you want to jump on a forum and talk about what our Front Office should do, check your impatience & emotional responses at the door.

Your confidence in your own words is kinda gross twslam. I think someone told you that you're a lot smarter than you are. You are only another opinion like the rest. Get over the pompous certainty.

 

[twslam07]

Your confidence in your own words is kinda gross twslam. I think someone told you that you're a lot smarter than you are. You are only another opinion like the rest. Get over the pompous certainty.

Thank you for the reality check.

Now let's get back to the matter at hand...why do you think my plan is not the best option?

 

[dude12]

Why is it so hard for some people to comprehend balance? It is not one or the other. You can develop a winning mentality in the young guys by having Joerger coach to win every game. You can also make sure you end up with a high pick by not bringing aboard old veteran talent that would help produce more wins.

So what have we done? We now have developed a winning/paying hard at all costs mentality in our young guys all the while giving us another shot at a star next year.

Basically, your wanting low level role playing vets so we can tank. You just don't want to say and. I'm advocating bringing in 1 very good vet who can be focal point for a few years to help us be competitive, a vet PG who can help ake pressure of Fox and Mason( they would both play and get their minutes), it would be great to have a real starting SF. These moves are not going to get us to 35 wins. More like 25 wins and lottery bound.


We don't need to see this team get blown out repeatedly. 9 first and second year guys is going to make it tough......and of course they will pay hard, but they need to be able to succeed a bit.

 

[ParniValjak]

After giving this some thought, I think we should go after:

(1) Paul Millsap
(2) Tony Snell (or Andre Roberson)
(3) Ty Lawson

I know Millsap is expensive and long in the tooth, but he will make everyone on our team better and ease pressure on all the young guys. He can be the cog to our offense and defense and give Buddy, Fox and Skal the freedom to excel. Millsap can initiate the offense from the high post AND run pick and roll with our PGs. This is what SI has to say about Millsap:

Paul Millsap
Millsap will be paid like a star because he is one, no matter how he might be regarded by the most casual NBA fans. What they often fail to see are the things that coaches fret over and teammates appreciate. Millsap is one of the best in the league at making up for his teammates’ mistakes, whether by switching outright, holding his rotation longer than he’d like, or popping up to defend the rim. His hands are ridiculously disruptive for his position. He also lives in that space between positions, where to guard Millsap with a wing leaves a defense vulnerable to post-ups and drives but a more traditional big might not be able to keep up with him. His presence makes a team smarter; teammates understand where to go based on where Millsap sets them up with his interior passes and they grasp the nuances of a team defense from how he executes. A pro’s pro.

Millsap is an interesting one. I can see the merit in getting someone like Millsap. He is a great veteran for youngsters to learn from and he still has game.

Obviously there are couple of issues there. One being the cost and the other being playing time for young players, more specifically Skal.

If Millsap comes in, then he will play 32-35 minutes per game. That might be taking too much away from Skal's minutes. IMHO, Skal should be getting 20-25 minutes next season and then take on the starter mantle the season after that. Can you play Skal, Millsap and WCS on the court at the same time?

Then the next question is type of deal he would want. I can understand the two year deal at MAX or near MAX money with maybe a partial guarantee in the second year BUT I doubt Millsap would accept that. Sacramento would have to overpay significantly just to get him to consider the possibility. If it is anything more than two years, it would be irresponsible and definitely a wrong move by the franchise given his age especially when you consider that you already have guys like Skal and Giles on the roster that you are keen to develop and that you really like.

Bottom line is that team will need to spend and spend pretty big this off-season. They need to get someone who can be a scorer on this team. The roster as currently constructed would struggle to score 90 ppg next season and that is a a very poor return for a team that is expected to run and be up there in terms of pace.

 

[LA King Fan II]

Thank you for the reality check.

Now let's get back to the matter at hand...why do you think my plan is not the best option?

Hell, milsap won't come here anyway....

I don't like the mentality that we should stay bad. It serves no purpose in my mind. Let's get as good as we can. Let's have a good team.

Here we are...entertain us.

 

[dude12]

Millsap is an interesting one. I can see the merit in getting someone like Millsap. He is a great veteran for youngsters to learn from and he still has game.

Obviously there are couple of issues there. One being the cost and the other being playing time for young players, more specifically Skal.

If Millsap comes in, then he will play 32-35 minutes per game. That might be taking too much away from Skal's minutes. IMHO, Skal should be getting 20-25 minutes next season and then take on the starter mantle the season after that. Can you play Skal, Millsap and WCS on the court at the same time?

Then the next question is type of deal he would want. I can understand the two year deal at MAX or near MAX money with maybe a partial guarantee in the second year BUT I doubt Millsap would accept that. Sacramento would have to overpay significantly just to get him to consider the possibility. If it is anything more than two years, it would be irresponsible and definitely a wrong move by the franchise given his age especially when you consider that you already have guys like Skal and Giles on the roster that you are keen to develop and that you really like.

Bottom line is that team will need to spend and spend pretty big this off-season. They need to get someone who can be a scorer on this team. The roster as currently constructed would struggle to score 90 ppg next season and that is a a very poor return for a team that is expected to run and be up there in terms of pace.

While the debating is going on, I agree Millsap wouldn't come over for 2 years. But I'm not opposed with the Kings grabbing 1 talented guy to be a focal point/leader for a few years until the 9 1st and 2nd year guys are up to speed.

Make no mistake, this team will be losing quite a bit with that many young guys

 

[twslam07]

Basically, your wanting low level role playing vets so we can tank. You just don't want to say and. I'm advocating bringing in 1 very good vet who can be focal point for a few years to help us be competitive, a vet PG who can help ake pressure of Fox and Mason( they would both play and get their minutes), it would be great to have a real starting SF. These moves are not going to get us to 35 wins. More like 25 wins and lottery bound.


We don't need to see this team get blown out repeatedly. 9 first and second year guys is going to make it tough......and of course they will pay hard, but they need to be able to succeed a bit.

No, I will say it. I want low level role playing vets so we can tank! There it's out in the open for you!

But tanking by not signing any good veterans vs. tanking by a coach telling his players not to win are two completely different things. The first one (which I'm advocating) will probably end up in more wins than the second one, but it is also developing good habits with our young guys because the coach is in their ear getting them to play as hard as they can and to play to win every night. They will never experience someone telling them not to win. That right there makes sure our young guys are developed the right way while setting yourself up for another shot at drafting a star next draft.

Signing good vets and improving the roster as much as possible this year will help develop that winning mindset too because the coach will be saying the same thing. The only difference is you now have the 8th pick instead of the 3rd pick. Congratulations! You hurt your future!

 

[DesertFox]

Take a look at when the thunder went from bad to good. Lots of young guys, Nick Collison as the only vet getting real PT, then a bunch of mediocre old guys. They didn't need veterans starting ahead of them, taking valuable NBA reps so they could "compete."

We could use another mediocre PG, SF, and maybe PF so if Fox or Skal or whomever absolutely fall on their face, they don't have to go out for 35 minutes and destroy their confidence. But we should expect them to go out, compete, and learn. Pencil them in for 30 minutes, then adjust as Joeger sees fit.

 

[twslam07]

Hell, milsap won't come here anyway....

I don't like the mentality that we should stay bad. It serves no purpose in my mind. Let's get as good as we can. Let's have a good team.

Here we are...entertain us.

But I guess I don't want to settle for good. I want an elite team. I want a team that makes me think "you know, this team has a shot at a title in 5-7 years." That is what I am striving for.

To do that, we need to be patient and not hurt that future 5-7 years down the line. Before making any moves, we need to ask ourselves, "does this move make us better in 5-7 years?" If it doesn't, we probably shouldn't do it. If it does, we probably should do it. Signing Millsap hurts us in 5-7 years. Signing hard working, high character vets on short deals helps us in 5-7 years.

 

[dude12]

No, I will say it. I want low level role playing vets so we can tank! There it's out in the open for you!

But tanking by not signing any good veterans vs. tanking by a coach telling his players not to win are two completely different things. The first one (which I'm advocating) will probably end up in more wins than the second one, but it is also developing good habits with our young guys because the coach is in their ear getting them to play as hard as they can and to play to win every night. They will never experience someone telling them not to win. That right there makes sure our young guys are developed the right way while setting yourself up for another shot at drafting a star next draft.

Signing good vets and improving the roster as much as possible this year will help develop that winning mindset too because the coach will be saying the same thing. The only difference is you now have the 8th pick instead of the 3rd pick. Congratulations! You hurt your future!

Who are you wanting us to sign? Would be good to know that. And no one is saying that the team shouldn't play hard irregardless of who we have. I think it's a given that Joerger's teams play hard and play to win.

 

[ParniValjak]

Take a look at when the thunder went from bad to good. Lots of young guys, Nick Collison as the only vet getting real PT, then a bunch of mediocre old guys. They didn't need veterans starting ahead of them, taking valuable NBA reps so they could "compete."

We could use another mediocre PG, SF, and maybe PF so if Fox or Skal or whomever absolutely fall on their face, they don't have to go out for 35 minutes and destroy their confidence. But we should expect them to go out, compete, and learn. Pencil them in for 30 minutes, then adjust as Joeger sees fit.

Thunder also had elite franchise changing talents in Durant, Westbrook and Harden and damn good young PF/C in Ibaka. We might have the Ibaka angle covered but I am not sure we have the 3 franchise changing talents part covered. Massive difference.