First Preseason Game v. Lakers 10/4

[Jimbob]

Just some thought in regards to PapaG.

The pick had me frustrated as well and I am 200% fine with him spending the entire year in Reno. Let him play major minutes there and see if he develops.
We still have Koufus and now I believe thats a good thing.

The Kings have too often given up on players early. Hassan Whiteside comes to mind. How can that guy be as good as he is now while he supposedly sucked so bad as a King.

I trust that finally we have a coaching staff that will bring out the best in players. If Papa shows promise than great, if not well I recon Bogdan, Mali, and Skal is still a pretty good draft day haul especially considering we dumped Marco in the process.

 

[CruzDude]

What does Papa have going for him other than being big? If a guy is a good "project" player he normally has something that would lead one to believe that he will eventually be good. What is there in Papa that would lead Divac to make that determination?

Papa is very good on offense down low and within 8-10 ft of bucket but he got beat by Tarik Black everytime down court on breaks and beat by his man going to bucket for a 2, 3 times I saw for sure. He needs time to get with the NBA bigs speed, if he can, and learn what is different in defending. He was close defending on a number of drives but always about 6" away. So not bad for a first game. Probably needs time in Reno then brought down for a bit then back.

 

[itzcoatl]

Just some thought in regards to PapaG.

The pick had me frustrated as well and I am 200% fine with him spending the entire year in Reno. Let him play major minutes there and see if he develops.
We still have Koufus and now I believe thats a good thing.

The Kings have too often given up on players early. Hassan Whiteside comes to mind. How can that guy be as good as he is now while he supposedly sucked do bad as a King.

I trust that finally we have a coaching staff that will bring out the best in players. If Papa shows promise than great, if not well I recon Bogdan, Mali, and Skal is still a pretty good draft day haul especially considering we dumped Marco in the process.

I think you're correct about not giving up on papa. But Hassan is a whole different issue. His problems were mental and focus. Don't forget he got dropped from several teams after the Kings. If memory serves he didn't even make it in China.

 

[The_Jamal]

Uh..the guy was 19. You really think Papa will contribute more than Mudiay did last year? You think WCS had a better year than Mudiay? He was a 19 year old point guard in the NBA, starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Someone else in this thread was trying to argue Papa was 19 and sending him to NBA D League was fine. We are talking about the 13th pick in the NBA draft, not a second round pick. Mudiay was light years better than Papa at 19 years old.

I would take Mudiay over Papa or WCS in a heartbeat. I am a Kentucky fan and watched WCS for three years. Any Kentucky fan could tell you he had major weaknesses, which is why I about croaked when we took him over Mudiay. All of Cal's players go pro after one or two years, very rarely does a player stay three years and make it to the NBA as Kentucky star players are already close to NBA talent when they arrive at Kentucky. If you don't agree show me one Kentucky player under Calipari besides WCS who went to the NBA as a junior and lasted longer than 3 years. Cal recruits two types of players 1) Almost NBA ready talented players and 2) 3-4 year role players. The role players never make it in the NBA or don't last. Mudiay was the number 1 overall high school player coming out of HS and would have been a one year player in college because he is very talented and almost NBA ready, similar to Booker, Knight, Davis, Cousins, Wall, etc. Now this year Vlade takes Papa, ugh. Ok I need a break this gave me a headache.

????

I've been one of the biggest bashers of the Papa pick on the board. Thought it was stupid from day 1. So not sure what you're reaching for with all that nonsense.

And yes, WCS was far better than Mudiay last year. Just because he started and played 30 MPG, doesn't give him a pass for completely sucking. WCS was a quality rotational big last year production wise; not what we want from the 6th pick long-term, but certainly not a cause to say he sucks and is anything close to a bust.

I know Mudiay was 19, but he wasn't even close to the other young 19 year old kids who had solid years (Booker, Towns, Kristaps, Turner, Winslow, etc).

 

[The_Jamal]

He was playing 30 minutes a game for a team that was as bad as the Kings record-wise, and worse than the Kings in margin of victory, ORtg and DRtg. Big whoop.

The point is that he played 30 absolutely bone-crushingly brutal minutes. His PER was 9.9. According to Win Shares, he cost his team 2.1 wins (at a WS/48 of -0.049). According to Box Plus/Minus he cost his team 4.3 points per 100 possessions. According to VORP, he was even worse and cost his team 3.2 wins relative to a replacement-level player.

Compare to Willie Cauley-Stein, who only played 20 minutes a game and therefore according to your thinking was not as good as Mudiay. WCS had a PER of 15.3. According to Win Shares he got the Kings 3.8 wins, and his WS/48 was 0.130, which is a good deal better than the average NBA player at 0.100. According to Box Plus/Minus he gained hte Kings 0.7 points per 10 possessions. According to VORP, he was worth 2.7 wins relative to a replacement player.

They played different positions so it's hard to equate them with standard stats and perhaps Mudiay's assist total has blinded you but it's pretty clear that WCS was actually a better than average NBA player in the 20 minutes he played and that Mudiay was quite a good deal worse than a replacement-level player.

So yes, WCS had a better year than Mudiay. By a lot.

And all of this. Great minds think alike

 

[Tetsujin]

????

I've been one of the biggest bashers of the Papa pick on the board. Thought it was stupid from day 1. So not sure what you're reaching for with all that nonsense.

And yes, WCS was far better than Mudiay last year. Just because he started and played 30 MPG, doesn't give him a pass for completely sucking. WCS was a quality rotational big last year production wise; not what we want from the 6th pick long-term, but certainly not a cause to say he sucks and is anything close to a bust.

I know Mudiay was 19, but he wasn't even close to the other young 19 year old kids who had solid years (Booker, Towns, Kristaps, Turner, Winslow, etc).

I mean, the thing is that if he had picked almost any 19-year-old kid from last year's draft he'd at least have an argument but, between Gary Harris, Will Barton, and Jameer Nelson, Mudiay was the fourth best guard on his team with a lot of that production coming simply because Michael Malone stubbornly kept the guy in games to help him grow.

 

[Tetsujin]

Uh..the guy was 19. You really think Papa will contribute more than Mudiay did last year? You think WCS had a better year than Mudiay? He was a 19 year old point guard in the NBA, starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Someone else in this thread was trying to argue Papa was 19 and sending him to NBA D League was fine. We are talking about the 13th pick in the NBA draft, not a second round pick. Mudiay was light years better than Papa at 19 years old.

I would take Mudiay over Papa or WCS in a heartbeat. I am a Kentucky fan and watched WCS for three years. Any Kentucky fan could tell you he had major weaknesses, which is why I about croaked when we took him over Mudiay. All of Cal's players go pro after one or two years, very rarely does a player stay three years and make it to the NBA as Kentucky star players are already close to NBA talent when they arrive at Kentucky. If you don't agree show me one Kentucky player under Calipari besides WCS who went to the NBA as a junior and lasted longer than 3 years. Cal recruits two types of players 1) Almost NBA ready talented players and 2) 3-4 year role players. The role players never make it in the NBA or don't last. Mudiay was the number 1 overall high school player coming out of HS and would have been a one year player in college because he is very talented and almost NBA ready, similar to Booker, Knight, Davis, Cousins, Wall, etc. Now this year Vlade takes Papa, ugh. Ok I need a break this gave me a headache.

Well, okay. Patrick Patterson.

I find the whole Cal only recruits stars and role players thing patently ridiculous in that EVERY SINGLE coach of a major program in college basketball is doing the same thing aside. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the modern NBA who came into the league after his junior season of college, let alone a guy to come out of a one-and-done system like Kentucky. The NBA isn't built like that anymore. Most college stars who make it to the NBA wind up being NBA role players, so you can't fault college role players for not somehow making it into the NBA.

To Willie's credit, there was almost no doubt among most scouts that the dude would be a lottery pick after his freshman and sophomore seasons. He just happened to, for whatever reason, decide to play a couple more seasons than most other guys of his talent level did.

 

[KingMilz]

Well, okay. Patrick Patterson.

I find the whole Cal only recruits stars and role players thing patently ridiculous in that EVERY SINGLE coach of a major program in college basketball is doing the same thing aside. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the modern NBA who came into the league after his junior season of college, let alone a guy to come out of a one-and-done system like Kentucky. The NBA isn't built like that anymore. Most college stars who make it to the NBA wind up being NBA role players, so you can't fault college role players for not somehow making it into the NBA.

To Willie's credit, there was almost no doubt among most scouts that the dude would be a lottery pick after his freshman and sophomore seasons. He just happened to, for whatever reason, decide to play a couple more seasons than most other guys of his talent level did.

Patterson only spent one season (out of 3)under Cal nor was he ever recruited by him to Kentucky since he was already there

 

[New Era]

I hate to say it because I love Vlade, but if Papa ends up playing the bulk of this season in Reno then that's a DISASTER of a pick. You don't pick a guy at 13 with the intention of shipping him off to play in the fricking D League. I know it's only been summer league and one pre-season game, but this guy who he stretched for his looking like a huge mistake.

 

[mac]

Papa is very good on offense down low and within 8-10 ft of bucket but he got beat by Tarik Black everytime down court on breaks and beat by his man going to bucket for a 2, 3 times I saw for sure. He needs time to get with the NBA bigs speed, if he can, and learn what is different in defending. He was close defending on a number of drives but always about 6" away. So not bad for a first game. Probably needs time in Reno then brought down for a bit then back.

Did you get all that from the 5 baskets or whatever he's made in all Kings games played?

 

[King Baller]

I also wanted Baldwin but this is beginning to sound like a witch hunt Ease up folks, it was just the first preseason game. At this rate you all will be crowded around G1 Arena with torches and pitchforks by Halloween

 

[whozit]

I also wanted Baldwin but this is beginning to sound like a witch hunt Ease up folks, it was just the first preseason game. At this rate you all will be crowded around G1 Arena with torches and pitchforks by Halloween

While this pick may OR may not have been a mistake, I do believe Vlade's response to the criticism was. Instead of easing the expectations for this young man, he doubled down by giving his glowing report on him. While I may not have agreed with all of Vlade's decisions so far, I think this may be first time he majorly miss-stepped in terms of communication. Hopefully in a year or two, Vlade's pick will be justified.

 

[dude12]

All this negative talk about Papa......next thing you read will be people calling Skal a cornerstone franchise piece I tell ya!

 

[Entity]

All this negative talk about Papa......next thing you read will be people calling Skal a cornerstone franchise piece I tell ya!

if you really think about it. he had 4-5 games in summer league and half a game against scrubs in preseason. Not once in any of those 6 games did he show he was capable of anything against summer league and scrubs. If he was worth anything at all, Something would have stuck out. Anything but yet nothing against less than NBA talent. I know project project project, but if that project should at least have 5-10 good min in 6 games against talent that is margianally better than college. Especially for a 1st rounder

 

[dude12]

if you really think about it. he had 4-5 games in summer league and half a game against scrubs in preseason. Not once in any of those 6 games did he show he was capable of anything against summer league and scrubs. If he was worth anything at all, Something would have stuck out. Anything but yet nothing against less than NBA talent. I know project project project, but if that project should at least have 5-10 good min in 6 games against talent that is margianally better than college. Especially for a 1st rounder

Except that he's very young and it's too early......I'm sticking with that right now. Truth be told, I'm a tad more concerned with WCS, who I really like, but was not very good in SL and I'm not so crazy that he hasn't come into camp in shape 2 years in a row. WCS is older than Papa and has major athleticism. He has 1 year under his belt. I guess I'm expecting more out of him and not so much out of Papa currently.

 

[Entity]

but last year as a rookie WCS had double doubles and 20pt games. He isn't supposed to be an offensive player. He was Defensive specialist. So if you are talking offensive numbers WCS will continue to concern you as its not his game. Papa is showing nothing on either end of the court against nobody's. WCS was playing against NBA talent. My point is if you are remotely talented and worthy of even being drafted in the NBA you should be able to show something against non NBA talent even if its just 10 points 5 reb. Papa hasn't.

 

[Kingster]

Trading Chriss doesn't bother me. The fact that Wade Baldwin had a very strong first preseason game does.

Baldwin, Richardson, Labissiere with Bogdanovic coming over would have been a nice draft day haul that fills some holes going forward.

Trading Chriss will bother me immeasurably if he is a good player and Pop isn't. Just give me a good player with your 1st pick; the position of the player is secondary.

 

[Kingster]

Reportedly he has a 7'6" wingspan and he moves very fluidly in space for someone his size. Nice hands as well. That's all I've seen and most of that was from old tape. He's looked awful in summer league and the one preseason game. Very mechanical, way too slow in his movements and not a force as a rebounder or defender.

This is what is very concerning. If Papa were obviously athletic, but very raw and a poor shooter, I'd be more optimistic. But if he looks slow against summer league competition, that seems like the recipe for disaster. Just about the only thing that would make me feel better about the situation is knowing he played with the flu during the entire summer league. Maybe somebody on the board knows the answer to this: When was the last time a summer league rookie played terribly in the summer league and became a good NBA player?

 

[King Baller]

While this pick may OR may not have been a mistake, I do believe Vlade's response to the criticism was. Instead of easing the expectations for this young man, he doubled down by giving his glowing report on him. While I may not have agreed with all of Vlade's decisions so far, I think this may be first time he majorly miss-stepped in terms of communication. Hopefully in a year or two, Vlade's pick will be justified.

Careful, this sort of thing is what led to Malone's demise

 

[dude12]

but last year as a rookie WCS had double doubles and 20pt games. He isn't supposed to be an offensive player. He was Defensive specialist. So if you are talking offensive numbers WCS will continue to concern you as its not his game. Papa is showing nothing on either end of the court against nobody's. WCS was playing against NBA talent. My point is if you are remotely talented and worthy of even being drafted in the NBA you should be able to show something against non NBA talent even if its just 10 points 5 reb. Papa hasn't.

Patience is what I go with for 19 year old bigs like Papa....doesn't mean you have to be patient. I have little expectations for Papa right now is my point.....I'm looking at what he will be 3 years from now. That s a tremendously long time for the kid.

 

[sdballer]

I look at the Papa thing like early Marc Gasol. He wasn't in pro bball condition as a teenager and he was very ineffective on the court. As he got in shape and gained experience, he started to improve on the court. Gasol wasn't productive in Euroleague until he was almost 22 and didn't join the NBA until he was 24. Papa has time.

Now, should we have wasted a pick on a project when our best player occupies the same role? Probably not.

 

[whozit]

Trading Chriss will bother me immeasurably if he is a good player and Pop isn't. Just give me a good player with your 1st pick; the position of the player is secondary.

So if the first pick is good, it doesn't matter if the player (can't spell it) coming over next year or Skal is any good or not? In other words, you would be OK if Vlade blew the rest? If any two of the three turn out, then it was successful. If any of the three turn out better than Chriss, then what is the point?

 

[Dime Dropper]

This is what is very concerning. If Papa were obviously athletic, but very raw and a poor shooter, I'd be more optimistic. But if he looks slow against summer league competition, that seems like the recipe for disaster. Just about the only thing that would make me feel better about the situation is knowing he played with the flu during the entire summer league. Maybe somebody on the board knows the answer to this: When was the last time a summer league rookie played terribly in the summer league and became a good NBA player?

I mean, I have no idea whatsoever if Papa will bust or not, but there's been plenty of players who sucked in SL and went on to become very good players. It doesn't mean Papa will, it just means that sucking in SL doesn't guarantee failure.

 

[206Fan]

I still don't see the justification of trading down, then drafting Papagiannis. Was it for Bogdanovic?

The guy tried to tell us Papagiannis would contribute as effectively as Willie did in his rookie year. Papagiannis couldn't even post up against Summer League PLAYERS. He looks so slow out there.

We have to wait 1 more year for Bogdanvoic. All of this seems like preparing for the future, and not now. Am I not the only one troubled by this when our franchise player only has 1 more additional year left?

If anything, Papa should've been left to develop overseas. The guy is not ready to contribute at all in the NBA level. I guarantee you that he will struggle tremendously in the NBA DL because of how fast they play. Vlade should've never brought him over when clearly, his body is not ready. His game is not ready. Nothing about him is ready for the NBA. We're wasting his rookie contract years for an extremely raw rookie. I don't get it.

 

[206Fan]

I look at the Papa thing like early Marc Gasol. He wasn't in pro bball condition as a teenager and he was very ineffective on the court. As he got in shape and gained experience, he started to improve on the court. Gasol wasn't productive in Euroleague until he was almost 22 and didn't join the NBA until he was 24. Papa has time.

Now, should we have wasted a pick on a project when our best player occupies the same role? Probably not.

This is false. Gasol won MVP in 2008, and that's the same year he joined the NBA. At age 22.

A big difference is that by the time Papagiannis is 22, he'll only have 1 year left on his rookie scale. Gasol developed overseas. Papagiannis will probably develop in the DL. Not sure which one you'd rather want.

Papagiannis is extremely out of shape, fat, and slow. For his entire 1st year in the NBA, the only thing he'll have to focus on is his conditioning. That doesn't sound promising at all for the 13th overall pick.

 

[sdballer]

This is false. Gasol won MVP in 2008, and that's the same year he joined the NBA. At age 22.

A big difference is that by the time Papagiannis is 22, he'll only have 1 year left on his rookie scale. Gasol developed overseas. Papagiannis will probably develop in the DL. Not sure which one you'd rather want.

Papagiannis is extremely out of shape, fat, and slow. For his entire 1st year in the NBA, the only thing he'll have to focus on is his conditioning. That doesn't sound promising at all for the 13th overall pick.

No, that was true. Marc Gasol was Euroleague MVP and joined the NBA for the 08/09 season at age 24. Which is exactly what I said.

2 years before that, he was putting up 3 pts and 1 board a game. At Papa's age, he was a fat kid averaging 1 point on 35% shooting against euro's.

I don't know where the best place is for Papa to develop but to argue that there is no case where a young guy looked as out of place as he did and still developed into something nice is inaccurate.

 

[sdballer]

Here are the scouting reports on a young Gasol. Sound familiar?

Marc Gasol, Pau's brother, is trying to make a name for himself in Barcelona. He's a very skilled big man with a nice stroke and some good post moves. When we say big, we fully mean it. This kid has really suffered from being overweight in the past, and although he has been working on improving his conditioning since he came back from Memphis one year ago (he spent there two useless seasons at an American high school, apparently more concerned about eating fast food than improving his game), he still has a long way to go. F.C.Barcelona's front office apparently trusts him a lot to give him the role of first center off the bench, especially considering how injury prone Roberto Dueñas is. So it's a wonderful chance for him to show his abilities in one of the main European powerhouses. Sadly, he will start the competition sidelined because of an injury in his right foot. The truth is that it remains to be seen if his underdeveloped body can deal with such a demanding level.


Unlike Pau, Marc is a below average athlete ... Heavy legged player who will need to improve his foot speed to play in the NBA Lacks fluidity in his movements as he is a bit mechanical Must continue to work on conditioning his body as he appears to be carrying a little extra weight A focus on strength training could improve his overall mobility greatly Lacks the explosiveness to be even a decent shot blocker at the NBA level Not a very good rebounder out of position, as he possesses below average lateral quickness Post defense has improved greatly this year but still struggles when having to guard top athletes Offensively his execution in the post is slow which allows opposing defenders to recover quickly, must learn to make moves more decisively Can be a little foul prone Not a great help defender by any means as he is often late on the play Even though Gasol is a late bloomer who has yet to reach his potential hes made big strides in the past year

 

[ESP47]

I'm going to root for the kid but for as many success stories like Marc's, there are 25 similar stories that never pan out. At the moment, Papa can't do anything. He's just a big body with zero skills. Of course there's the chance that he can develop skills and turn into a productive player but there is a much much bigger chance that he will be a bust. It's the risk you take when you take big men like him. Theoretically the ceiling is sky high but the odds of reaching it are very very low. IMO there's a big chance he won't amount to anything, medium chance that he will turn out to be more like Cole Alrich and a very small chance that he will turn out to be anything like Marc Gasol.

 

[sdballer]

I'm going to root for the kid but for as many success stories like Marc's, there are 25 similar stories that never pan out. At the moment, Papa can't do anything. He's just a big body with zero skills. Of course there's the chance that he can develop skills and turn into a productive player but there is a much much bigger chance that he will be a bust. It's the risk you take when you take big men like him. Theoretically the ceiling is sky high but the odds of reaching it are very very low. IMO there's a big chance he won't amount to anything, medium chance that he will turn out to be more like Cole Alrich and a very small chance that he will turn out to be anything like Marc Gasol.

Completely agree

 

[Kingsfan23]

I still don't see the justification of trading down, then drafting Papagiannis. Was it for Bogdanovic?

The guy tried to tell us Papagiannis would contribute as effectively as Willie did in his rookie year. Papagiannis couldn't even post up against Summer League PLAYERS. He looks so slow out there.

We have to wait 1 more year for Bogdanvoic. All of this seems like preparing for the future, and not now. Am I not the only one troubled by this when our franchise player only has 1 more additional year left?

If anything, Papa should've been left to develop overseas. The guy is not ready to contribute at all in the NBA level. I guarantee you that he will struggle tremendously in the NBA DL because of how fast they play. Vlade should've never brought him over when clearly, his body is not ready. His game is not ready. Nothing about him is ready for the NBA. We're wasting his rookie contract years for an extremely raw rookie. I don't get it.

Chriss is a raw rookie, young, and wouldn't contribute immediately either IMO

I don't personally consider Skal much less talented (or any) than Chriss who he was ranked higher than most of last year