How will Willie be used this season:
- Thread starter bajaden
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WCS showed more polish on the defensive end last year than basically any rookie in recent memory. Doesn't mean he was effective all the time or even an impact guy defensively last year, but the fact is that all rookies are bad on defense. It takes time to adjust to the speed of NBA offenses/scorers and to start to learn tendencies of guys who have been scoring in the NBA for 5+ years. This all happens regardless of coaching, but is only magnified under a bad defensive coach like Karl.
His defensive tools and being able to physically switch out onto the perimeter is so rare and so valuable in todays NBA. Virtually every PF now is a stretch 4... if you can eliminate that from opposing offenses, you're forcing teams into unfavorable sets.
We'll see with his minutes. A lot will depend on him being able to hit the open 15ft jumper and remain effective with limited touches. Only 6% of his shots were from outside of 10 feet last year, and he hit them at a 36% clip. Needs to be closer to 20% of his attempts while keeping that TS% up.
His defensive tools and being able to physically switch out onto the perimeter is so rare and so valuable in todays NBA. Virtually every PF now is a stretch 4... if you can eliminate that from opposing offenses, you're forcing teams into unfavorable sets.
We'll see with his minutes. A lot will depend on him being able to hit the open 15ft jumper and remain effective with limited touches. Only 6% of his shots were from outside of 10 feet last year, and he hit them at a 36% clip. Needs to be closer to 20% of his attempts while keeping that TS% up.
Well Nerlens Noel and Marcus Smart were quite decent on D in their rookie seasons I would guess.
But those guys were given solid minutes from the get got and didn't play under Karl. So basically we'll have to wait and see what kind of defender Willie really is.
His tools are extremely promising but so were Gay's, when he came into the league and Gay never reached his true potential on D.
But those guys were given solid minutes from the get got and didn't play under Karl. So basically we'll have to wait and see what kind of defender Willie really is.
His tools are extremely promising but so were Gay's, when he came into the league and Gay never reached his true potential on D.
I shudder to remember just how bad the Kings were playing defense under Karl last season. Karl was playing very small most of the season. Rudy was at the 4 a lot being abused by bigger players. Often there were two very small guards playing together. Rondo's defense was a sieve. The constant switching caused crazy mismatches on almost every play.
It was not until Thibs made his visit to the Kings and changes were made in the defensive strategy that we began to see two Bigs playing together for large portions of the game. By then the season was over for the Kings.
It was not until Thibs made his visit to the Kings and changes were made in the defensive strategy that we began to see two Bigs playing together for large portions of the game. By then the season was over for the Kings.
As far as I remember we were torched from the perimeter every game. We had far more serious problems than Rudy playing PF and getting abused by bigger players. Basically we never found a single answer to the high pick&roll. Remember Boogies 56 point game that we still lost, because Kemba Walker annihilated our perimeter defense and we basically invited everyone, including Spencer Hawes, to bomb threes on us all game....
That game was pretty much the breaking point of the season.
That game was pretty much the breaking point of the season.
It's extremely difficult to have an intelligent conversation with someone when they ignore most of what your posting. You tend to pick and choose points out of context and then make them the focal point of your response. For instance, when I stated in another thread that I was hopeful the Kings would win more than 32 games, of course I didn't mean 33 games would be acceptable.. I doubt anyone on this forum thought I meant that. Only you! I'm not going to waste my time going over what I've posted again and again when you obviously aren't interested in having a conversation. So believe whatever you want. I no longer care.
Again, it's the same kind of thing as WCS; they were decent on that end, but it took them a few years to actually have a real impact on the defensive end. And with Nerlens, he had the added benefit of getting to hold the clipboard for a year and be in an NBA environment without having to actually play.
I don't want to get into the gory details of last years defensive scheme, but in short, Karl had everyone on defense crowding the lane, which mean't playing farther off their man than I would have liked. As a result we gave up a lot of three's that were barely contested at times. This didn't help Willie when the PF he was guarding was a competent stretch four, like a Ryan Anderson or a Draymond Green. As fans we can either blame the players, or we can blame the coach. In this instance, I tend to blame the coach.
I agree with you that it takes time for a player to get the experience he needs to be a good defender. Right now, in Willie's case were talking more about his abilities than his results. I've always felt that it takes three years for a player to become who he is as an NBA player. In some cases it takes longer, and that's usually at the PG or Center position. That doesn't mean you can't be a good player your first year, it just means that you not as good as you will be in three years. For example, Lebron was a very good player his rookie year, but I think we can all agree that he's better player now.
Of course all that depends on how hard a player is willing to work on his game. By all accounts Willie is working hard. Skal spent the entire summer in Sacramento working with the coaches and the trainers. Malachi spent most of the summer in Sacramento and Papagiannis was here for the last month or so. All positive notes, but that doesn't mean that their going to get many minutes. Actually I think Papa will spend most of the year in Reno and Malachi will spend a significant amount of time there as well. Not sure about Skal. Training camp may well determine his immediate future. Apparently he's been very impressive so far. Tolliver better be looking over his shoulder.
I agree with you that it takes time for a player to get the experience he needs to be a good defender. Right now, in Willie's case were talking more about his abilities than his results. I've always felt that it takes three years for a player to become who he is as an NBA player. In some cases it takes longer, and that's usually at the PG or Center position. That doesn't mean you can't be a good player your first year, it just means that you not as good as you will be in three years. For example, Lebron was a very good player his rookie year, but I think we can all agree that he's better player now.
Of course all that depends on how hard a player is willing to work on his game. By all accounts Willie is working hard. Skal spent the entire summer in Sacramento working with the coaches and the trainers. Malachi spent most of the summer in Sacramento and Papagiannis was here for the last month or so. All positive notes, but that doesn't mean that their going to get many minutes. Actually I think Papa will spend most of the year in Reno and Malachi will spend a significant amount of time there as well. Not sure about Skal. Training camp may well determine his immediate future. Apparently he's been very impressive so far. Tolliver better be looking over his shoulder.
I felt like Willie fell flat on offense during the 1st preseason game. On offense, he's best next to Cousins because he'll be able to score off of putbacks, and o-rebs. He won't be asked to create his own shot, or even facilitate any type of offense. However, I can't say that Cousins is best next to WCS.
I didn't feel like Joerger utilized PnR with Lawson-WCS enough. As good of a playmaker Lawson is, he's no comparison to Rondo. I'm really anxious to see whether or not Willie will pick up his offense, especially without Rondo. Defenders are not respecting his jumpshot at all. They play completely off and away from him.
The way Larry Nance Jr was playing, is the way I expected WCS to play like.
WCS's limitations on offense doesn't make me feel like he'll be part of the offensive scheme.
Question to you Baja, semi-related to this thread. Why do you think it's so hard for the Kings to hit on draft picks? I'm not saying WCS is a failed pick, but we've missed on a lot of them. Willie's a lot older than most of the guys in his class, and right now, he's not showing the most upside/potential.
It's really hard not to constantly compare Willie to his class...especially a class that looks like like it could be really special.
What do you think Willie needs to show this season to warrant his 6th overall selection? Do you see this Princeton-type offense benefiting him?
I didn't feel like Joerger utilized PnR with Lawson-WCS enough. As good of a playmaker Lawson is, he's no comparison to Rondo. I'm really anxious to see whether or not Willie will pick up his offense, especially without Rondo. Defenders are not respecting his jumpshot at all. They play completely off and away from him.
The way Larry Nance Jr was playing, is the way I expected WCS to play like.
WCS's limitations on offense doesn't make me feel like he'll be part of the offensive scheme.
Question to you Baja, semi-related to this thread. Why do you think it's so hard for the Kings to hit on draft picks? I'm not saying WCS is a failed pick, but we've missed on a lot of them. Willie's a lot older than most of the guys in his class, and right now, he's not showing the most upside/potential.
It's really hard not to constantly compare Willie to his class...especially a class that looks like like it could be really special.
What do you think Willie needs to show this season to warrant his 6th overall selection? Do you see this Princeton-type offense benefiting him?
Well, this is going to take a while. I'll start with the Princeton type of offense. Maybe is the best I can do. As a recepiant of passes it should be a plus. Ball movement should help a player get easy baskets. Of course he has to be able to distribute the ball as well, and we'll see if he's capable or not. My guess is that yes, it will help his game, Maybe not in the short term, but in the long term.
As to why the Kings have missed on so many draft picks? Well, some of those mistakes were under the Maloofs, and up until they started making some of the decisions instead of Petrie, we did fairly well in the draft. But Fredette and Thomas Robinson were both Maloof picks. Then Vivek came in with his geek approach even taking in the info from fans. Not exactly the way I would have operated. I also think that the Kings scouting dept took a serious financial hit the last few years under the Maloofs. According to some sources, our European scouting was almost non-existent. I suspect that our college scouting wasn't in much better shape.
Now, add in that despite who we drafted, we didn't have a development program in place either. So we weren't situated to get the best, whatever that may have been, out of whoever we drafted. Just look at how Vivek decided to use our D-League team. They may have been fun to watch, but they wern't developing fundamentals, which is what they should be doing. In short, our scouting dept along with our ability to develop a player was a mess, and was largely responsible for the results. It also didn't help to changes head coaches every year.
I still think Willie is going to be a great choice. He came out of college with certain skills, and probably lacking certain skills. Calipari used him a lot differently than most seven footers are used, and what he was able to accomplish made him an interesting, but quite different choice. I felt the best comparison for him was probably Tyson Chandler, and it took Chandler a while to find his total game. Willie wasn't a big part of the offense at Kentucky, and that hurt his development in that area. So he came to us behind the curve a little offensively. I think he's going to be fine, but I can't guarantee anything. He's a very unique athlete with the lateral quickness and speed of a guard. If Joerger can figure out a way to tap into his strengths, he could be a big piece of the future.
Unlike you, I don't think Willie is on a two year time schedule. Most players take three years to develop, and big men sometimes take a little longer. If he becomes a big part of our defense, I'm more than willing to give him more time on the offensive side. What we don't want is for him to be a liability. People have to stop thinking that every draft pick is going to be a star. Most aren't! If Willie becomes a star, then that's a huge bonus, but if he becomes a solid rotational player, then I'm happy. What I would like is for Willie to become a compliment to Cousins. For the two of them to become our frontcourt of the future.
As to why the Kings have missed on so many draft picks? Well, some of those mistakes were under the Maloofs, and up until they started making some of the decisions instead of Petrie, we did fairly well in the draft. But Fredette and Thomas Robinson were both Maloof picks. Then Vivek came in with his geek approach even taking in the info from fans. Not exactly the way I would have operated. I also think that the Kings scouting dept took a serious financial hit the last few years under the Maloofs. According to some sources, our European scouting was almost non-existent. I suspect that our college scouting wasn't in much better shape.
Now, add in that despite who we drafted, we didn't have a development program in place either. So we weren't situated to get the best, whatever that may have been, out of whoever we drafted. Just look at how Vivek decided to use our D-League team. They may have been fun to watch, but they wern't developing fundamentals, which is what they should be doing. In short, our scouting dept along with our ability to develop a player was a mess, and was largely responsible for the results. It also didn't help to changes head coaches every year.
I still think Willie is going to be a great choice. He came out of college with certain skills, and probably lacking certain skills. Calipari used him a lot differently than most seven footers are used, and what he was able to accomplish made him an interesting, but quite different choice. I felt the best comparison for him was probably Tyson Chandler, and it took Chandler a while to find his total game. Willie wasn't a big part of the offense at Kentucky, and that hurt his development in that area. So he came to us behind the curve a little offensively. I think he's going to be fine, but I can't guarantee anything. He's a very unique athlete with the lateral quickness and speed of a guard. If Joerger can figure out a way to tap into his strengths, he could be a big piece of the future.
Unlike you, I don't think Willie is on a two year time schedule. Most players take three years to develop, and big men sometimes take a little longer. If he becomes a big part of our defense, I'm more than willing to give him more time on the offensive side. What we don't want is for him to be a liability. People have to stop thinking that every draft pick is going to be a star. Most aren't! If Willie becomes a star, then that's a huge bonus, but if he becomes a solid rotational player, then I'm happy. What I would like is for Willie to become a compliment to Cousins. For the two of them to become our frontcourt of the future.
If Trill is not going to be a starter then I definitely hope that when Cousins is out they surround him with shooters and let him play a Tyson Chandler/DeAndre Jordan type role.
Temple, McLemore, Casspi and then either Barnes or Tolliver (or maybe Lawson or even Labissiere at some point) would space the floor and let Cauley-Stein be a screen and roll guy. And that unit should be fine defensively and decent enough on the glass with Casspi being a strong rebounder at the 3 and decent at the 4.
I still like the idea of Willie starting next to Boogie, but if he's not going to then that second unit should be a transition based, spread the floor group where WCS can do what he does best - run the floor, defend the rim, hedge the pick and roll and be a screener who rolls hard to the basket for easy lobs.
Temple, McLemore, Casspi and then either Barnes or Tolliver (or maybe Lawson or even Labissiere at some point) would space the floor and let Cauley-Stein be a screen and roll guy. And that unit should be fine defensively and decent enough on the glass with Casspi being a strong rebounder at the 3 and decent at the 4.
I still like the idea of Willie starting next to Boogie, but if he's not going to then that second unit should be a transition based, spread the floor group where WCS can do what he does best - run the floor, defend the rim, hedge the pick and roll and be a screener who rolls hard to the basket for easy lobs.
Thanks for the detailed response.
Lots of very good and valid points in regards to Willie. I do think that this Princeton offense will help his offensive IQ by a ton. It won't show on the stat sheets, but could be a good long-term effect. Hopefully it'll all start to click together within the next few years.
The thought of our scouting department being non-existent in Europe is really scary...it does lead us to think that our scouting department might not have been the strongest. That would make a lot of sense, especially with the ill-advised draft pick of Jimmer....let alone trading back when we had a clear shot at great PG prospects(at the time) in Walker and Knight.
Did the Kings really not have a developmental team in place? Wow. That's extremely concerning for a multi-million dollar franchise. Especially a franchise that was constantly in the gutters.
Do you know if the Kings have brought in any guys this year? I'm sure they do have more experienced developmental coaches in play now, but I think we'll really need them for Papagiannis, Skal, and Richardson. I'm curious as to who they will, or have brought in for Papagiannis and Skal. Both are talented bigs, but have extremely different skillsets. I'd really like to know if Ilgauskas is doing anything these days. I think he'd be a great mentor for Papagiannis, but hopefully he can teach him to rebound better than he did.
Willie is one of the most athletic and agile 7fters we've seen. I think his defensive potential is all there for him. There's lots of 1-way defensive starting Cs, but most of them are elite rebounders and rim protectors. I think a sucky problem that comes along with his athleticism and quickness is that he often finds himself floating around the perimeter trying to help..simply because he can. We see guys like Enes Kanter trying to avoid the perimeter at all costs. I think he may be prone to Karl's ugly switching...which was also a result of Rondo refusing to fight over screens. I think if he can just focus on protecting the interior, he's going to be in good hands. Will fix a lot of his poor rebounding habits too. I personally feel like Willie's clock is shorter than someone's like Stanley Johnson because he is 2 1/2 years older already.
I really hope to see these group of draftees succeed in the NBA. It's hard not to be uncomfortable with 3 rookies in 1 season when the Kings have had a ton of failed player development.... not to mention how raw they are for the NBA. I guess the bright side of it all is that the Kings have enough talent and depth that they don't need their rookies to contribute heavily this year. Of course you'd like them to, but we're set at almost every position.
Lots of very good and valid points in regards to Willie. I do think that this Princeton offense will help his offensive IQ by a ton. It won't show on the stat sheets, but could be a good long-term effect. Hopefully it'll all start to click together within the next few years.
The thought of our scouting department being non-existent in Europe is really scary...it does lead us to think that our scouting department might not have been the strongest. That would make a lot of sense, especially with the ill-advised draft pick of Jimmer....let alone trading back when we had a clear shot at great PG prospects(at the time) in Walker and Knight.
Did the Kings really not have a developmental team in place? Wow. That's extremely concerning for a multi-million dollar franchise. Especially a franchise that was constantly in the gutters.
Do you know if the Kings have brought in any guys this year? I'm sure they do have more experienced developmental coaches in play now, but I think we'll really need them for Papagiannis, Skal, and Richardson. I'm curious as to who they will, or have brought in for Papagiannis and Skal. Both are talented bigs, but have extremely different skillsets. I'd really like to know if Ilgauskas is doing anything these days. I think he'd be a great mentor for Papagiannis, but hopefully he can teach him to rebound better than he did.
Willie is one of the most athletic and agile 7fters we've seen. I think his defensive potential is all there for him. There's lots of 1-way defensive starting Cs, but most of them are elite rebounders and rim protectors. I think a sucky problem that comes along with his athleticism and quickness is that he often finds himself floating around the perimeter trying to help..simply because he can. We see guys like Enes Kanter trying to avoid the perimeter at all costs. I think he may be prone to Karl's ugly switching...which was also a result of Rondo refusing to fight over screens. I think if he can just focus on protecting the interior, he's going to be in good hands. Will fix a lot of his poor rebounding habits too. I personally feel like Willie's clock is shorter than someone's like Stanley Johnson because he is 2 1/2 years older already.
I really hope to see these group of draftees succeed in the NBA. It's hard not to be uncomfortable with 3 rookies in 1 season when the Kings have had a ton of failed player development.... not to mention how raw they are for the NBA. I guess the bright side of it all is that the Kings have enough talent and depth that they don't need their rookies to contribute heavily this year. Of course you'd like them to, but we're set at almost every position.
Starting WCS makes the most sense to me. Then you can go a little smaller with the substitutions. Unless Joerger, Turner and crew are successful scheming for s Boogie - Koufos starting front court duo. I don't want to see a midget line up like last season. Going small has its place and it is later in the game IMO.
Willie will be starting eventually if not right away, he suits Cuz almost perfectly and vice versa. I liked what I saw out of Willie last year and this year he should add consistency. He definitely has the skills to be a great defensive player, but can he add it all up in his head? Motivation might be a problem or maybe he's a slow starter to the new season.
What Koufos provides in the starting lineup is rebounding, good interior defense and pick & roll defense and a guy who plays his role and can be counted on to be very consistent game to game.
What WCS provides in the starting lineup is a versatile defender who is good on the weakside, improving in the interior and rangy and effective on the perimeter. He's also a threat in transition and shows flashes of being more than a dumpoff: roll man on offense.
Cayley-Stein's inconsistency and tendency to float are frustrating but they may just be the growing pains of a young player. But when he's engaged I think he's a better fit in the starting lineup with Cousins. Boogie/Trill can match up against most starting bigs whereas Cousins/Koufos will often have one of the guys chasing a smaller PF around the perimeter. Plus DMC hides WCS's weaker rebounding while Koufos stops our bench from being overmatched on the glass.
Personally I'd like to see:
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Casspi/Tolliver/Labissiere
Gay/Barnes/Casspi
Afflalo/McLemore/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Temple/Lawson
At least to start the year with some of the bench players shifting on the depth chart depending on how they play or due to injury.
What WCS provides in the starting lineup is a versatile defender who is good on the weakside, improving in the interior and rangy and effective on the perimeter. He's also a threat in transition and shows flashes of being more than a dumpoff: roll man on offense.
Cayley-Stein's inconsistency and tendency to float are frustrating but they may just be the growing pains of a young player. But when he's engaged I think he's a better fit in the starting lineup with Cousins. Boogie/Trill can match up against most starting bigs whereas Cousins/Koufos will often have one of the guys chasing a smaller PF around the perimeter. Plus DMC hides WCS's weaker rebounding while Koufos stops our bench from being overmatched on the glass.
Personally I'd like to see:
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Casspi/Tolliver/Labissiere
Gay/Barnes/Casspi
Afflalo/McLemore/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Temple/Lawson
At least to start the year with some of the bench players shifting on the depth chart depending on how they play or due to injury.
Personally, based on what Joerger is looking to do I'd like to see Temple start. He's a good defender who can switch to the SG or SF if necessary, a solid outside shooter and a guy who can play off the ball to let the offense run through Cousins at the high post. Plus it sets up Lawson to be a spark plug off the bench where he can have the ball in his hands more, look to call his own number and run the second unit.
But from coach's comments (and the starting lineup of the last preseason game) it looks like Lawson will start while DC is suspended.
But from coach's comments (and the starting lineup of the last preseason game) it looks like Lawson will start while DC is suspended.
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[quote="funkykingston, post: 1272512, member: 734"
Personally I'd like to see:
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Casspi/Tolliver/Labissiere
Gay/Barnes/Casspi
Afflalo/McLemore/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Temple/Lawson[/quote]
Lawson will have to start at least the first 8 games with Temple off bench as primary ball handler. Can see both Barnes and Casspi on floor at same time. Richardson is ? with Papa and the other Cousins (Isiah) in Reno likely. With only 6 preseason games this year expect to see the rotation pretty well set by game 4-5. Other big ? is Ben who is still being Ben with inconsistent shot especially from the 3.
Personally I'd like to see:
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Casspi/Tolliver/Labissiere
Gay/Barnes/Casspi
Afflalo/McLemore/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Temple/Lawson[/quote]
Lawson will have to start at least the first 8 games with Temple off bench as primary ball handler. Can see both Barnes and Casspi on floor at same time. Richardson is ? with Papa and the other Cousins (Isiah) in Reno likely. With only 6 preseason games this year expect to see the rotation pretty well set by game 4-5. Other big ? is Ben who is still being Ben with inconsistent shot especially from the 3.
Second Cousins could end up in Reno. I'm guessing he and Farmar get cut and unless IC gets a better offer from Europe I think he goes to the Bighorns.
I think Lawson will start with Collison out (Joerger has said as much) with Gay & Afflalo at the wings and Boogie as one of the bigs. But I have a feeling coach will play around with who starts next to him. Willie seems like the best choice on paper but he really hasn't distinguished himself so far. If that doesn't change then I think Koufos and Casspi are the options depending on options.
If he doesn't start I think Casspi and Tolliver split the backup PF minutes with Skal having a chance to break into the rotation later in the season if he develops or if injuries force him to get minutes.
Likewise I think Ben gets all the backup SG minutes and Malachi gets no floor time unless there's an injury (and even then Temple or Barnes will likely get those minutes) or he really starts impressing in practice.
On the one hand it'd be nice if one or more of our rookies were so good that Joerger had to play them but on the other hand it's a good situation where the team is deep enough that the three 1st round picks can develop in the background and the team can chase the 8th spot without living with their growing pains on the court.
And the Kings have three solid, veteran small forwards so they can still deal Rudy for a better fitting piece if the opportunity presents itself.
I think Lawson will start with Collison out (Joerger has said as much) with Gay & Afflalo at the wings and Boogie as one of the bigs. But I have a feeling coach will play around with who starts next to him. Willie seems like the best choice on paper but he really hasn't distinguished himself so far. If that doesn't change then I think Koufos and Casspi are the options depending on options.
If he doesn't start I think Casspi and Tolliver split the backup PF minutes with Skal having a chance to break into the rotation later in the season if he develops or if injuries force him to get minutes.
Likewise I think Ben gets all the backup SG minutes and Malachi gets no floor time unless there's an injury (and even then Temple or Barnes will likely get those minutes) or he really starts impressing in practice.
On the one hand it'd be nice if one or more of our rookies were so good that Joerger had to play them but on the other hand it's a good situation where the team is deep enough that the three 1st round picks can develop in the background and the team can chase the 8th spot without living with their growing pains on the court.
And the Kings have three solid, veteran small forwards so they can still deal Rudy for a better fitting piece if the opportunity presents itself.
One thing I took away from Willie's time at Kentucky, and from last year, is Willie does as he's told. He's very coachable, and as a result, I think it's hard to actually know what his tendency's are. Was what he was doing last year a tendency, or was he doing what he was told to do. I honestly don't know, but my bet is he was told to play a certain way, and was trying to do exactly that. Add in mental mistakes from inexperience, and you have a mixed bag of results.
You mentioned that Koufos is good pick and roll defender. Willie is the best pick and roll defender I have ever seen coming out of college, and yet, that wasn't one of the things that stood out from him last year. You have to ask yourself why? Did he suddenly forget? I doubt it! One thing is for sure. We'll have a very good idea of how good a defender Willie is after this season.
You mentioned that Koufos is good pick and roll defender. Willie is the best pick and roll defender I have ever seen coming out of college, and yet, that wasn't one of the things that stood out from him last year. You have to ask yourself why? Did he suddenly forget? I doubt it! One thing is for sure. We'll have a very good idea of how good a defender Willie is after this season.