K
If you are going to criticize what I say at least get it right? I said who is going to play PG while Collison is out? We could have signed Jennings to fill in for him and then slowly Baldwin in as the 2PG as the season progresses. Nobody ever said anything about Jennings getting us to the playoffs. Who is going to play backup PG when Collison goes out?
I wanted Crabbe and Ryan Anderson. I was unsure about Ryno but rumor was he wanted to come home so I was good with signing him. Turns out neither wanted the Kings and Sacramento didn't have the caproom to sign them both anyway.
I was hoping for Dunn in the draft but was resigning to myself that it would be Jaylen Brown as that's who most mocks had. I had just about convinced myself he'd fit when Boston took him 3rd. When Chriss fell I wasn't thrilled so I loved the trade with Phoenix.
But I would have taken Baldwin, Luwawu and either Zubac or Onuaku. So I'll keep tabs on those guys but given that Baldwin was the only big prospect that Vlade & co saw up him up close and personal and passed I have to respect that they had good reason.
To me getting Crabbe or Lee instead of Afflalo or Baldwin instead of Papagiannis are minor details that won't change things dramatically.
I'm still hoping for a Gay trade (possibly with Koufos and/or McLemore) to shake up the roster but outside of that what is really going to determine how successful the Kings can be is whether Boogie can take his game to the next level and how successful Joerger is and how much better than Karl he will be.
But what I like is that Vlade & Joerger are in the same page, are staying financially flexible and are getting players that fit what they want to do and so I'm willing to see how their plan works out.
They definitely still need a quality backup PG though.
I was hoping for Dunn in the draft but was resigning to myself that it would be Jaylen Brown as that's who most mocks had. I had just about convinced myself he'd fit when Boston took him 3rd. When Chriss fell I wasn't thrilled so I loved the trade with Phoenix.
But I would have taken Baldwin, Luwawu and either Zubac or Onuaku. So I'll keep tabs on those guys but given that Baldwin was the only big prospect that Vlade & co saw up him up close and personal and passed I have to respect that they had good reason.
To me getting Crabbe or Lee instead of Afflalo or Baldwin instead of Papagiannis are minor details that won't change things dramatically.
I'm still hoping for a Gay trade (possibly with Koufos and/or McLemore) to shake up the roster but outside of that what is really going to determine how successful the Kings can be is whether Boogie can take his game to the next level and how successful Joerger is and how much better than Karl he will be.
But what I like is that Vlade & Joerger are in the same page, are staying financially flexible and are getting players that fit what they want to do and so I'm willing to see how their plan works out.
They definitely still need a quality backup PG though.
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I'll play this game. Assuming we're picking semi achievable player or realistic contracts ( ie No durant, horford or Conley or zaza and west for vet minimums) or no trades
PG collison, Lin (12 mil) , Seth (3 mil)
SG afflalo (12.5) Ben , Richardson
SF gay, Omri, Barnes (not Harrison
6mil), butler
P wcs, skal
C dmc, kk, big George
PG collison, Lin (12 mil) , Seth (3 mil)
SG afflalo (12.5) Ben , Richardson
SF gay, Omri, Barnes (not Harrison
6mil), butler P wcs, skal
C dmc, kk, big George
Why are your panties in a bunch when WE HAVEN'T EVEN SIGNED THE FREE AGENTS YET. It's the first week of JULY. Summer leauge hasn't played a game. Teams are still sorting out what the Durant decision means and trades have not really begun in earnest.
If Collison is cleared of the charges he likely won't miss any time at all. If he isn't, he likely faces maybe 5 games or so. It's not the end of the world either way (impact on the team). And the team is still shopping Rudy as well as likely Ben and KK. All are great contracts for trade chips.
Why don't you give it, oh, 2 months before you start crying about the sky falling in? Let's see what this team might end up looking like for training camp and not be gnashing our teeth in the first week of July.
If Collison is cleared of the charges he likely won't miss any time at all. If he isn't, he likely faces maybe 5 games or so. It's not the end of the world either way (impact on the team). And the team is still shopping Rudy as well as likely Ben and KK. All are great contracts for trade chips.
Why don't you give it, oh, 2 months before you start crying about the sky falling in? Let's see what this team might end up looking like for training camp and not be gnashing our teeth in the first week of July.
Honestly dude, you are so far out in left field there is no reason to get in a lively debate eith you. I think you are trolling this boardpersonally. Brandon Jennings was just the thing that stuck out the most to me. An inefficient chucker who made his name in his rookie season off a terrible hair style, a 50 point game, and some seriously unfounded bravado. I picture you (based off the tone of your posts) sitting at your keyboard with tears in your eyes. You literally added 3 different players to the team than Vlade and based off Crabbe, Jennings, and a rookie you made a winning team? Huh? So I guess Crabbe is the next Paul George and Jennings is actually a net plus for the first time in his career then, next season? Wow.
I agree with KingsFan80 none of these signings are big time moves. The goal is to make the playoffs to show Boogie that the Kings are headed in the right direction. Right now there is a season and a half the Kings have to either trade him or make the playoffs. The moves that Vlade has done don't push the Kings into the playoffs. Tolliver and Temple aren't going to give the team much of anything. Afflalo maybe gives you a little something but he's not pushing this team to the playoffs. When it comes to Big George I don't hate the pick but if he gives you regular minutes this Sac team won't be in the playoffs. George is an 18 yo project.
When I read these analysis I see that people always forget our main addition. Joerger. I truly believe he can make a big difference for our team, also considering this team had the potential to be in the playoff last year. Going from the crazy style Karl was playing to a defense first one will make a huge difference.
K
Fair enough...I will wait and see. I just feel if your back is against the wall, you have to take chances. Unfortunately, we cannot attract the top free agents, so we need to take chances on others like Jennings, Lawson etc. on the slight chance they might go back to their old form. I was not implying Jennings would get us to the playoffs. If you want an example look at the Knicks. They are taking big chances, but Phil Jackson knows if he wants to take a big step they have to go out on a limb with Rose, Noah etc. Will it work out? Could go either way but it is his best option to make the playoffs instead of going conservative.
I will say if Vlade is able to some how land a Bledsoe, Knight etc. it completely changes a lot. IMO we are just missing one more impact player. Landing an impact player via trade would be a huge move in the right direction for him. We will see if he can get it done.
I will say if Vlade is able to some how land a Bledsoe, Knight etc. it completely changes a lot. IMO we are just missing one more impact player. Landing an impact player via trade would be a huge move in the right direction for him. We will see if he can get it done.
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I think people are missing who these players are replacements for. The original goal was clearly to bring in Ryan Anderson and sign a starting SG. Anderson chose the Rockets and while the Kings were connected to Crabbe, Lee and Waiters, they signed Afflalo who I'd argue is a comparable player though without the upside of Crabbe due to AC's age.
But if the goal was to improve the team, it's hard to argue that they didn't do so.
My argument was that Rondo was addition by subtraction given that he was a net negative for the team statistically. Others can argue, but that's my stance.
Papagiannis replaces Eric Moreland
Labissiere replaces Duje Dukan
Barnes replaces Caron Butler
Tolliver replaces Acy
Afflalo replaces Ben McLemore
and thus
McLemore replaces Marco Belinelli
Richardson replaces James Anderson
There still has to be a trade or a signing to address the PG position but as you go down the line it's pretty clear to me the team has upgraded. The only real argument IMO is Acy vs Tolliver as Q brings better rebounding and energy but Tolliver brings outside shooting as a stretch 4. I'd call that one for Tolliver just on fit and what Joerger/Vlade want if not on talent.
Temple's role will to be the 11th or 12th guy who can step in at multiple positions and provide toughness & defense while making the right play and being a good locker room presence. This offseason is very clearly focused on changing the culture. Getting rid of major sources of drama/conflict in Rondo & Karl, adding hard working professionals, focusing on guys who play defense first and foremost etc.
There were a handful of impact players in this year's free agency and the Kings really had no shot to get any of them unless with want to consider Ryan Anderson an impact player. So they made minor upgrades across their roster to give Joerger a slightly stronger team to work with as well as one better suited for what he wants to do.
Again, I think they are shopping some guys (Koufos, Gay, McLemore) so that may have additional impact on the roster, but if all they do is sign a solid backup veteran PG I think this roster is improved.
The Rockets made the 8th seed going 41-41. The Kings winning 8-10 more games with better defense, better chemistry, a slightly upgraded roster, more growth from Cousins and better coaching from Joerger doesn't seem all that far fetched to me.
I said I wasn't going to get my hopes up for this season and that if it was another disaster of a year I'd take a break from the Kings for a while. I'm still holding to the latter but as for the former, I may be like Charlie Brown with the football but I'm seeing things I like happening and getting optimistic again.
But if the goal was to improve the team, it's hard to argue that they didn't do so.
My argument was that Rondo was addition by subtraction given that he was a net negative for the team statistically. Others can argue, but that's my stance.
Papagiannis replaces Eric Moreland
Labissiere replaces Duje Dukan
Barnes replaces Caron Butler
Tolliver replaces Acy
Afflalo replaces Ben McLemore
and thus
McLemore replaces Marco Belinelli
Richardson replaces James Anderson
There still has to be a trade or a signing to address the PG position but as you go down the line it's pretty clear to me the team has upgraded. The only real argument IMO is Acy vs Tolliver as Q brings better rebounding and energy but Tolliver brings outside shooting as a stretch 4. I'd call that one for Tolliver just on fit and what Joerger/Vlade want if not on talent.
Temple's role will to be the 11th or 12th guy who can step in at multiple positions and provide toughness & defense while making the right play and being a good locker room presence. This offseason is very clearly focused on changing the culture. Getting rid of major sources of drama/conflict in Rondo & Karl, adding hard working professionals, focusing on guys who play defense first and foremost etc.
There were a handful of impact players in this year's free agency and the Kings really had no shot to get any of them unless with want to consider Ryan Anderson an impact player. So they made minor upgrades across their roster to give Joerger a slightly stronger team to work with as well as one better suited for what he wants to do.
Again, I think they are shopping some guys (Koufos, Gay, McLemore) so that may have additional impact on the roster, but if all they do is sign a solid backup veteran PG I think this roster is improved.
The Rockets made the 8th seed going 41-41. The Kings winning 8-10 more games with better defense, better chemistry, a slightly upgraded roster, more growth from Cousins and better coaching from Joerger doesn't seem all that far fetched to me.
I said I wasn't going to get my hopes up for this season and that if it was another disaster of a year I'd take a break from the Kings for a while. I'm still holding to the latter but as for the former, I may be like Charlie Brown with the football but I'm seeing things I like happening and getting optimistic again.
Meanwhile this is a conversation just for fun. However, even that fun requires some touch with reality. I'd like people to take a good look at the team Joerger was leading last season! They made the playoffs, but fell to SA, one of strongest teams in the NBA. That team played unbelievably regarding its roster that was full of players that were found basically at the buss stop. Give Joerger a little credit. Last year he would have been fascinated to have this roster.
I understand the appeal in making those types of moves. It's like drafting the guy highest up on all the mock draft boards and seeing your team get an A on all the ridiculous "draft report cards" that come out the next day. The Kings probably averaged a D for this draft but got an A- for the Thomas Robinson draft. It's all meaningless right now.
As for the Knicks, it reminds me a lot of what the Washington Redskins did for years and years. They'd sign the biggest name free agent on the market regardless of fit (Deion Sanders, Jeremiah Trotter, Jeff George, Bruce Smith, Adam Archuleta, Albert Haynesworth etc) and whether they were still able to contribute like they did in their prime. And year after year they continued to suck.
Derrick Rose isn't a "go out on a limb" risk. He's had a torn ACL, two torn meniscuses and has only played in 166 out of 410 (40%) of games since winning the MVP five seasons ago. He was maybe the most explosive athlete I've ever seen at the PG position. And that is gone and not coming back. Can he be a good PG again? Sure. If he stays healthy. But he's not ever going to be the player he was again. Right now he's a guy with good size for the position, whose shot selection has improved from last year where he shot too many threes, but he's still a 42% or so shooter and 30% or below from three who now struggles to finish at the rim. His passing numbers have gone down, his defense has declined and the Bulls were slightly better offensively and significantly better defensively when he didn't play. If (and that's a big if with Rose) he can stay healthy I wouldn't rule out a bounce back season where he continues to play better, something that seemed more likely after his vision cleared up this season following the broken orbital bone, but I can't imagine him ever being a star again. What made him so special was that explosiveness that injuries have sapped him of. He's a free agent next year which is good in the sense that he represents little risk, but the Knicks also traded a fair amount for him and risk losing him for nothing. But if he does have a decent year, how much to you pay to keep him?
Noah is 31 and seemingly in decline. It sure feels like Thibodeau just ran him into the ground. But I think he'll do well with the Knicks assuming Hornacek runs something similar to the Triangle Offense just because of his great passing skills. He can also still rebound and I think he's a good emotional leader for a team. Defensively he's declined but I understand that signing for the Knicks even if I think they paid too much and over too many years.
Brandon Jennings is a good signing for the Knicks. He's insurance against a Rose injury as he can step in and start and when Rose is healthy he provides scoring and passing off the bench. But (1) I don't see either guy as a good fit in the Triangle so Hornacek must have gotten Phil to allow him to run something similar but different and (2) it means both of the Knicks PGs are poor defenders and poor shooters that like to put the ball up a fair amount. As for Jennings, he never really had an "old form" to go back to. He's the same player he's always been. Once he averaged 19 ppg but he did it on 42% shooting (33% from three) while taking 17 shots a game and only averaging 5.5 assists. He's never been an all-star and at this point he doesn't have untapped potential. He is what he is.
And while I think he'll be a good backup PG for the Knicks, his lack of defense means he's not a fit for Joerger. And I'm not sure the Knicks are the team to emulate. Melo is 32. Noah is 31. Lee is 30. Lance Thomas is 28. And all are signed for the next 3-4 years. Barring Porzingis becoming a massive star, where is that roster going to take them in the next few years even if they all stay healthy?
As for the Knicks, it reminds me a lot of what the Washington Redskins did for years and years. They'd sign the biggest name free agent on the market regardless of fit (Deion Sanders, Jeremiah Trotter, Jeff George, Bruce Smith, Adam Archuleta, Albert Haynesworth etc) and whether they were still able to contribute like they did in their prime. And year after year they continued to suck.
Derrick Rose isn't a "go out on a limb" risk. He's had a torn ACL, two torn meniscuses and has only played in 166 out of 410 (40%) of games since winning the MVP five seasons ago. He was maybe the most explosive athlete I've ever seen at the PG position. And that is gone and not coming back. Can he be a good PG again? Sure. If he stays healthy. But he's not ever going to be the player he was again. Right now he's a guy with good size for the position, whose shot selection has improved from last year where he shot too many threes, but he's still a 42% or so shooter and 30% or below from three who now struggles to finish at the rim. His passing numbers have gone down, his defense has declined and the Bulls were slightly better offensively and significantly better defensively when he didn't play. If (and that's a big if with Rose) he can stay healthy I wouldn't rule out a bounce back season where he continues to play better, something that seemed more likely after his vision cleared up this season following the broken orbital bone, but I can't imagine him ever being a star again. What made him so special was that explosiveness that injuries have sapped him of. He's a free agent next year which is good in the sense that he represents little risk, but the Knicks also traded a fair amount for him and risk losing him for nothing. But if he does have a decent year, how much to you pay to keep him?
Noah is 31 and seemingly in decline. It sure feels like Thibodeau just ran him into the ground. But I think he'll do well with the Knicks assuming Hornacek runs something similar to the Triangle Offense just because of his great passing skills. He can also still rebound and I think he's a good emotional leader for a team. Defensively he's declined but I understand that signing for the Knicks even if I think they paid too much and over too many years.
Brandon Jennings is a good signing for the Knicks. He's insurance against a Rose injury as he can step in and start and when Rose is healthy he provides scoring and passing off the bench. But (1) I don't see either guy as a good fit in the Triangle so Hornacek must have gotten Phil to allow him to run something similar but different and (2) it means both of the Knicks PGs are poor defenders and poor shooters that like to put the ball up a fair amount. As for Jennings, he never really had an "old form" to go back to. He's the same player he's always been. Once he averaged 19 ppg but he did it on 42% shooting (33% from three) while taking 17 shots a game and only averaging 5.5 assists. He's never been an all-star and at this point he doesn't have untapped potential. He is what he is.
And while I think he'll be a good backup PG for the Knicks, his lack of defense means he's not a fit for Joerger. And I'm not sure the Knicks are the team to emulate. Melo is 32. Noah is 31. Lee is 30. Lance Thomas is 28. And all are signed for the next 3-4 years. Barring Porzingis becoming a massive star, where is that roster going to take them in the next few years even if they all stay healthy?
It sounds really good when you frame itl ike that- but if we are real about it, Papagiannis and Skal probably won't play anyway so it's not much of a difference and I'm not sure I'd take Tolliver/Temple over Acy/Curry.
So in reality the only change for the better is Afflalo (who is absolutely better than either Ben or Marco but I'm not that optimistic about him- epsecially his defense) and Barnes over Butler and to match that we are very thin at PG position after losing Rondo (and I'm happy we didn't pay him).
This team is probably a little better than the one we had last year but that's putting the bar real low, since the major FA we had is a guy you agreed is an addition by subtraction it was nearly impossible to roll out a team you would call worse than last year and that's why I think many of the people here are looking at this offseason as underwhelming.
If someone before the summer would write about our summer scenario as one where we lose Rondo, Acy and Curry and gain Tolliver, Temple and Afflalo that would have been considered very pessimistic.
What I do agree on is that there is probably a trade for a PG coming that could change the picture- but right now it's really nothing to brag about.
So in reality the only change for the better is Afflalo (who is absolutely better than either Ben or Marco but I'm not that optimistic about him- epsecially his defense) and Barnes over Butler and to match that we are very thin at PG position after losing Rondo (and I'm happy we didn't pay him).
This team is probably a little better than the one we had last year but that's putting the bar real low, since the major FA we had is a guy you agreed is an addition by subtraction it was nearly impossible to roll out a team you would call worse than last year and that's why I think many of the people here are looking at this offseason as underwhelming.
If someone before the summer would write about our summer scenario as one where we lose Rondo, Acy and Curry and gain Tolliver, Temple and Afflalo that would have been considered very pessimistic.
What I do agree on is that there is probably a trade for a PG coming that could change the picture- but right now it's really nothing to brag about.
I am not putting too much credit to the Dunc'd podcast, but it's the first national one that I have heard that have given a decent amount of time to the Kings and their offseason. Hosts are Nate Duncan and Danny Leroux of RealGM. These guys are more cap guys than anything, but they do have pretty extensive basketball knowledge.
Here is my breakdown of their Kings takes
Draft: They liked the move to move down, loved the Marco trade and they are actually higher on Big Pappa than most. They were in agreement that the Kings would not have gotten him later but that they probably drafted too high just in a general. Don't think they are very high on Skal, not a lot of detail. Did not really discuss Richardson.
Free Agency: Gave tons of credit to entire Kings front office. Specifically to Ken Cantenella (remember, they are cap guys)
Afflalo: Thought it was great value even without the partial guarantee on year 2. Partial guarantee makes it much more valuable, possible they just retain him next year.
Tolvier: Same, thought really good value. Said he is a + defender, needs to be on floor. Hopefully not at the 3. Questioning if we will see Gay or Cassipi much at the 4 this year.
Temple: This one they hated. Thought it was way too much and not a good contract giving him PO for 3rd year. They had him at 4-6MM per not the 8 we gave him. Pretty much ripped this apart.
Barnes: Thought good value, bit indifferent. Worried that at 36 he could drop off a cliff as far as athleticism. Thinks Joerger was deciding factor returning here, could have gotten maybe a little more in different situations.
As I stated in Bogdan thread, stated that it was confirmed he is not coming over this year.
All that being said, they still think Kings are a lottery team and will have their pick next year. They said depending on what happens we could have upwards of $50MM in cap space but we would have replace Gay, Cassipi, Collison and McLemore with that space. So it's not as big as it seems, plus Tolliver and Afflalo assuming we let them go.
They restated how we were rumored with Gay to Pacers and that was quickly squashed. Said it's a new day in Sacramento not going after over rated players (something to that affect) and hinted that the media is being controlled much better.
I'm probably leaving a few things out, but that's it in a nut shell.
Here is my breakdown of their Kings takes
Draft: They liked the move to move down, loved the Marco trade and they are actually higher on Big Pappa than most. They were in agreement that the Kings would not have gotten him later but that they probably drafted too high just in a general. Don't think they are very high on Skal, not a lot of detail. Did not really discuss Richardson.
Free Agency: Gave tons of credit to entire Kings front office. Specifically to Ken Cantenella (remember, they are cap guys)
Afflalo: Thought it was great value even without the partial guarantee on year 2. Partial guarantee makes it much more valuable, possible they just retain him next year.
Tolvier: Same, thought really good value. Said he is a + defender, needs to be on floor. Hopefully not at the 3. Questioning if we will see Gay or Cassipi much at the 4 this year.
Temple: This one they hated. Thought it was way too much and not a good contract giving him PO for 3rd year. They had him at 4-6MM per not the 8 we gave him. Pretty much ripped this apart.
Barnes: Thought good value, bit indifferent. Worried that at 36 he could drop off a cliff as far as athleticism. Thinks Joerger was deciding factor returning here, could have gotten maybe a little more in different situations.
As I stated in Bogdan thread, stated that it was confirmed he is not coming over this year.
All that being said, they still think Kings are a lottery team and will have their pick next year. They said depending on what happens we could have upwards of $50MM in cap space but we would have replace Gay, Cassipi, Collison and McLemore with that space. So it's not as big as it seems, plus Tolliver and Afflalo assuming we let them go.
They restated how we were rumored with Gay to Pacers and that was quickly squashed. Said it's a new day in Sacramento not going after over rated players (something to that affect) and hinted that the media is being controlled much better.
I'm probably leaving a few things out, but that's it in a nut shell.
I think the Temple signing is severely underrated. He is a guy who fits, wont cause issues, and does what is asked of him. He doesnt need the ball to make an impact on the game. He is blue collar. The players Vlade picked up are about fit next to Cousins. If Cousins can up his efficiency by better being able to use the players around him its a win. And the addition of Joegermeister and a system geared toward hard nosed defense you almost certainly have to realize this equals more wins. We lost last year because of a flawed mentality, to outscore the other team. That doesnt work when the other team is playing better defense than you. Simple philosophy.
Who would
As you said goal is to make progress. I see progess on a number of front which Funky has illustrated. You and some other vocal fans dont see progress, or at least too little....trouble i have with your viewpoint is you want "big moves" that would dramatically improve team....well sure me too. But what are these "big moves?" Durant conely Batum? Pipe dreams. Is curry and Crabb the big time moves? Maybe with Crabb but that is debatable if we even assum he had mutual interest to sign here. A big trade? Our aging ineffective Gay and scared little pup Ben are not going to be swapped for upgrades in talent like Westbrook or Paul or Butler....i think there is more reason to assume a "big move" thatbwould dramatically improve the team isnt out there....unless you consider Joeger that big move which WAS Jerry West level. There just isnt anything out there that is a "big" improvement to what Vlade has done already which is why i dont personally see your point of criticism convincing.
As you said goal is to make progress. I see progess on a number of front which Funky has illustrated. You and some other vocal fans dont see progress, or at least too little....trouble i have with your viewpoint is you want "big moves" that would dramatically improve team....well sure me too. But what are these "big moves?" Durant conely Batum? Pipe dreams. Is curry and Crabb the big time moves? Maybe with Crabb but that is debatable if we even assum he had mutual interest to sign here. A big trade? Our aging ineffective Gay and scared little pup Ben are not going to be swapped for upgrades in talent like Westbrook or Paul or Butler....i think there is more reason to assume a "big move" thatbwould dramatically improve the team isnt out there....unless you consider Joeger that big move which WAS Jerry West level. There just isnt anything out there that is a "big" improvement to what Vlade has done already which is why i dont personally see your point of criticism convincing.
They were addressing what we have, not what we will be. They talked about needing to upgrade at PG. Specifically when discussing Temple they said he is not a PNR point guard, but a good defender. More a 3&D PG. So we will need another creator.
It's very obvious that one if not all of Gay, Ben, Koufos will be getting traded most likely for a PG or scoring guard of some sort.
It's very obvious that one if not all of Gay, Ben, Koufos will be getting traded most likely for a PG or scoring guard of some sort.