Free Agency

[funkykingston]

Agree---and what hurts the most we could have signed Jennings, Lawson etc. all much better options and potential. I think this signing and Tolliver get an F. Tolliver sucks, he has played on 10 teams in like 7 years, nobody keeps him because he isn't good. Barnes is a decent move, and Affalo is average.

You keep mentioning Jennings & Lawson. There's a reason Jennings only got $5 million from the Knicks and why Lawson still hasn't been signed by anybody.

Both are inefficient offensively, both are awful defensively and both carry a risk. With Jennings it's that he's coming off an Achilles tear and to a lesser extent attitude issues and for Lawson it's his DUIs and the fact that he was a disaster in Houston. And Ty Lawson is nearly 29 and Brandon Jennings nearly 27. They are what they are. There's not untapped potential there.

Based on everything Joerger has said, especially in terms of becoming a defensive team and everything Vlade has done, they aren't fits for the Kings even if they are bigger names to the casual fan. There's a clear direction here and it's long, defensive players who are also good locker room guys. And yes, despite what many people seem to believe the word from his former teammates has always been that Matt Barnes is a good guy to have in the locker room.

Lawson & Jennings aren't defensive players. They aren't good locker room guys. And they aren't what Vlade & Joerger are looking for.

I know you've already decided that all the Kings moves this summer have been terrible but looking at the big picture I'm perfectly fine with letting things play out on the court before forming a concrete opinion. Or maybe I just don't get the overwhelming negativity. It'll be months before we see what this roster can do.

 

[Hoovtrain]

David West to GS. Must be nice

 

[funkykingston]

David West to GS. Must be nice

Definition of a ring chaser right there.

 

[kingsboi]

David West to GS. Must be nice

Get yours David!

 

[KingsFan80]

You keep mentioning Jennings & Lawson. There's a reason Jennings only got $5 million from the Knicks and why Lawson still hasn't been signed by anybody.

Both are inefficient offensively, both are awful defensively and both carry a risk. With Jennings it's that he's coming off an Achilles tear and to a lesser extent attitude issues and for Lawson it's his DUIs and the fact that he was a disaster in Houston. And Ty Lawson is nearly 29 and Brandon Jennings nearly 27. They are what they are. There's not untapped potential there.

Based on everything Joerger has said, especially in terms of becoming a defensive team and everything Vlade has done, they aren't fits for the Kings even if they are bigger names to the casual fan. There's a clear direction here and it's long, defensive players who are also good locker room guys. And yes, despite what many people seem to believe the word from his former teammates has always been that Matt Barnes is a good guy to have in the locker room.

Lawson & Jennings aren't defensive players. They aren't good locker room guys. And they aren't what Vlade & Joerger are looking for.

I know you've already decided that all the Kings moves this summer have been terrible but looking at the big picture I'm perfectly fine with letting things play out on the court before forming a concrete opinion. Or maybe I just don't get the overwhelming negativity. It'll be months before we see what this roster can do.

I am tired of losing. Tired of seeing the Warriors win and hearing their fans all over the Valley running their mouths. I want the Kings to win again and it pains me to see us getting the leftovers. I want to be positive and pretend Temple, Tolliver, etc are good players but it is what it is. They aren't going to make any impact at all. I watch a lot of NBA basketball and I can tell you both of them suck. We could have resigned Curry, Acy, etc. and it literally would make no difference whatsoever compared to who we signed. Barnes and Affalo could potentially make a small impact, more so Affalo. We need to get an impact player like Bledsoe etc

 

[206Fan]

Wizard fans discussing whether or not to bring back Temple last month..

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2016/5/25/11733616/garrett-temple-washington-wizards-player-evaluation



These are actual people who watched him play every night last year. Judging by their assessment of the guy, I'm happy to call him a King.

I don't think anyone really dislikes Temple. He's a vet with good locker room presence. He filled in for Bradley Beal...he wasn't good, but he was solid for a journeyman. Expectations weren't set high for him at all. He's a SG who can handle the ball. His defense has been pretty good, and he's a solid shooter.

The biggest downside is that the Kings don't have a backup PG right now...and it most likely means Temple is our PG. While Temple can play PG, he doesn't give you much at all. He's not a good scorer. He's not a good passer. He's not going to be able to run an offense. The only thing he can do for you at PG is bring the ball up.
Keep in mind Collison might miss up to 25 games too. Temple is just not a very good option at PG... unless we bring in another guy, it'll be very underwhelming.

 

[sdballer]

I am tired of losing. Tired of seeing the Warriors win and hearing their fans all over the Valley running their mouths. I want the Kings to win again and it pains me to see us getting the leftovers. I want to be positive and pretend Temple, Tolliver, etc are good players but it is what it is. They aren't going to make any impact at all. I watch a lot of NBA basketball and I can tell you both of them suck. We could have resigned Curry, Acy, etc. and it literally would make no difference whatsoever compared to who we signed. Barnes and Affalo could potentially make a small impact, more so Affalo. We need to get an impact player like Bledsoe etc

When you look at what the kings have done and complain we should have signed Lawson or jenning instead, that probably tells you we didn't have that many options in FA. It's likely we are moving some combo of gay, Ben and koufos so I'm going to withhold judgement.

What I do like is the players we got are defenders, vets, tough, move the ball and can shoot. They fit our coach and best players plans.And they didn't cost a ton.

 

[funkykingston]

I am tired of losing. Tired of seeing the Warriors win and hearing their fans all over the Valley running their mouths. I want the Kings to win again and it pains me to see us getting the leftovers. I want to be positive and pretend Temple, Tolliver, etc are good players but it is what it is. They aren't going to make any impact at all. I watch a lot of NBA basketball and I can tell you both of them suck. We could have resigned Curry, Acy, etc. and it literally would make no difference whatsoever compared to who we signed. Barnes and Affalo could potentially make a small impact, more so Affalo. We need to get an impact player like Bledsoe etc

The Warriors are going to win. I think they could take a step back this season as they integrate Durant and an all new bench but they'll still win. Maybe a title this season. Maybe a bunch of them in the next few years. We'll see. And I'm just as amazed as everyone else as all these people I've known for years suddenly reveal to me that they've been Warriors fans their whole lives. It makes me wonder why the attendance was so low in the late 90 and early 2000s. . .

The Kings aren't the Warriors. And that's because while the Warriors drafted Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Harrison Barnes, Festus Ezeli and Draymond Green the Kings drafted Tyreke Evans, Jimmer Fredette and Thomas Robinson. Of course, in 2010 the Kings took Cousins and the Dubs got Ekpe Udoh so I guess score that one for Sacramento.

You can't be a losing team and squander draft picks. Which is why I'm very much hoping Vlade knows what he's doing with this year's crop. They aren't who I'd pick but that doesn't matter now. All that matters is what kind of players they become. Likewise with free agency. I wanted Allen Crabbe and Ryan Anderson with Curry being re-signed. Turns out that the Kings couldn't have afforded them with their caproom even if those guys chose the Kings. Afflalo was on my radar though after Crabbe & Lee and Barnes was a guy I wanted. Can't say that Temple and Tolliver were on my list but I definitely understand the thinking. Hard working vets that are plus defenders, good locker room guys and in Tolliver's case a good outside shooter for a PF.
For the first time since maybe Petrie & Adelman the Kings have a GM and a coach working hand in hand and there's a clear plan in place. You may not like that plan. You may not like that players you want (Curry, Lawson, Jennings) don't fit that plan. Or that they couldn't get the free agents you wanted to sign. That's fine. But I'm still wondering how it is that you know in July exactly how things will turn out in April.

Personally I'd give the new regime a shot before deciding I know better than them. After all, the last two seasons have been complete tire fires. The bar is pretty low right now. Because all they have to do is not be completely dysfunctional and win more than 33 games for it to be an improvement. Making the playoffs would be a huge step and I don't think that's beyond their reach if all goes well. I guess I just don't see the reason to sit around being miserable and negative about something that hasn't even happened yet.

As my grandfather said, "If you don't know for sure you might as well be positive. It feels better and it doesn't cost you anything more"

 

[funkykingston]

I don't think anyone really dislikes Temple. He's a vet with good locker room presence. He filled in for Bradley Beal...he wasn't good, but he was solid for a journeyman. Expectations weren't set high for him at all. He's a SG who can handle the ball. His defense has been pretty good, and he's a solid shooter.

The biggest downside is that the Kings don't have a backup PG right now...and it most likely means Temple is our PG. While Temple can play PG, he doesn't give you much at all. He's not a good scorer. He's not a good passer. He's not going to be able to run an offense. The only thing he can do for you at PG is bring the ball up.
Keep in mind Collison might miss up to 25 games too. Temple is just not a very good option at PG... unless we bring in another guy, it'll be very underwhelming.

You keep saying 25 games. The longest DV related suspension was for Jeff Taylor at 24 games and also involved public intoxication, destruction of private property, assaulting hotel security etc. If Collison did something atrocious I hope they throw the book at him legally and in terms of an NBA suspension. But so far there's no reason to think what he did would be on the level of Taylor. The only other suspension on record is Ron Artest getting 7 games back in 2007. Leagues are finally treating domestic violence like the serious issue it is, but until the facts come out I think it's a bit premature to assume Collison will get the longest suspension in league history.

As for the backup PG, unless the team is convinced (and I don't see how they could be) that Isaiah Cousins is the answer at backup PG there has to be a trade or a signing coming. Temple is supposed to be a swiss army knife that can step in a few different places and keep the team running in case of injury. He's an insurance policy with the bonus of being (reportedly) a great teammate.

 

[notoriousBEN3]

For what it's worth, i've read multiple comments from Pistons fans that are sad to see Tolliver go, similar to Temple. Not really much negative you can say about the guy.....

While we certainly haven't had a flashy offseason and i think we still have a hole at PG, i'm a fan of the fact that we seem to have a vision for the team in place. I am happy we will have a defensive squad, and by all accounts, it seems like we have a group of guys ready to buy into the Joerger system and compete every night. Kings have been a completely dysfunctional franchise for years, and change will take time. I think it's understandable that some are disappointed with our offseason, but i think every move we've made is a step in the right direction. I know most of us Kings fans have run out of patience and want to win RIGHT NOW, but shaking off all that dysfunction and having season free of headlines and personality distractions will be something i'm content with.

 

[King Baller]

I am tired of losing. Tired of seeing the Warriors win and hearing their fans all over the Valley running their mouths. I want the Kings to win again and it pains me to see us getting the leftovers. I want to be positive and pretend Temple, Tolliver, etc are good players but it is what it is. They aren't going to make any impact at all. I watch a lot of NBA basketball and I can tell you both of them suck. We could have resigned Curry, Acy, etc. and it literally would make no difference whatsoever compared to who we signed. Barnes and Affalo could potentially make a small impact, more so Affalo. We need to get an impact player like Bledsoe etc

I think Temple and Tolliver each will make an impact. They will be in the rotation and contribute unless injured. Both are role players but good defenders who can hit an open shot at a fair percentage. You are making absolute statements without ever seeing them play in a Kings uniform, Lighten up

 

[KingsFan80]

When you look at what the kings have done and complain we should have signed Lawson or jenning instead, that probably tells you we didn't have that many options in FA. It's likely we are moving some combo of gay, Ben and koufos so I'm going to withhold judgement.

What I do like is the players we got are defenders, vets, tough, move the ball and can shoot. They fit our coach and best players plans.And they didn't cost a ton.

If I could pick my way, this is what I think would have been the best for us, again just my opinion:

PG - Collison, Jennings (1 year - $5 mil), Wade Baldwin
SG - Crabbe ($16 mil), McLemore, Richardson
SF - Gay, Omri, Matt Barnes ($6 mil)
PF - WCS, Skal
C - Cousins, Koufos

Use the remaining $5 mil to re-sign Acy. At some point, if you need another C, trade McLemore for one and move Richardson into a larger role. This, my friends, is a winning team in the NBA.

 

[ElRey]

If I could pick my way, this is what I think would have been the best for us, again just my opinion:

PG - Collison, Jennings (1 year - $5 mil), Wade Baldwin
SG - Crabbe ($16 mil), McLemore, Richardson
SF - Gay, Omri, Matt Barnes ($6 mil)
PF - WCS, Skal
C - Cousins, Koufos

Use the remaining $5 mil to re-sign Acy. At some point, if you need another C, trade McLemore for one and move Richardson into a larger role. This, my friends, is a winning team in the NBA.

Crabbes deal is rumored to be $70mil for 4 years, that's $17.5 mil per year , not $16

 

[KingsFan80]

Crabbes deal is rumored to be $70mil for 4 years, that's $17.5 mil per year , not $16

I didn't know he had reached a deal, i quit following free agency after we were done. Still, $17.5 mil would be doable

 

[sdballer]

If I could pick my way, this is what I think would have been the best for us, again just my opinion:

PG - Collison, Jennings (1 year - $5 mil), Wade Baldwin
SG - Crabbe ($16 mil), McLemore, Richardson
SF - Gay, Omri, Matt Barnes ($6 mil)
PF - WCS, Skal
C - Cousins, Koufos

Use the remaining $5 mil to re-sign Acy. At some point, if you need another C, trade McLemore for one and move Richardson into a larger role. This, my friends, is a winning team in the NBA.

Even if we go with the big assumption that the players you mentioned would come here for that, you've swapped a 3rd string pg for a 3rd string center, and crabbe/Jennings for afflalo/temple/Tolliver. Since you think we suck now and that what you propose is a winning team, do you really value crabbe/Jennings that highly?

 

[KingsFan80]

Even if we go with the big assumption that the players you mentioned would come here for that, you've swapped a 3rd string pg for a 3rd string center, and crabbe/Jennings for afflalo/temple/Tolliver. Since you think we suck now and that what you propose is a winning team, do you really value crabbe/Jennings that highly?

Crabbe is ten times better than Affalo and would only get better. I do like Affalo, I just like Crabbe a lot more and with the Cap continuing to go up, why not lock in a young SG. This is under the assumption he would come, as you stated.

Jennings would give us valuable minutes and can score, while Wade Baldwin could getting playing time as well while Collison is out. Let Baldwin play into the 2 PG spot and as Jennings fills in as the starter while Collison is suspended. Jennings, as a starter, could easily be a 12PPG and 7 or 8 Assists per game guy. Good luck if you think you will get that from Temple. It isn't worth my time to even talk about Tolliver.

 

[sdballer]

Crabbe is ten times better than Affalo and would only get better. I do like Affalo, I just like Crabbe a lot more and with the Cap continuing to go up, why not lock in a young SG. This is under the assumption he would come, as you stated.

Jennings would give us valuable minutes and can score, while Wade Baldwin could getting playing time as well while Collison is out. Let Baldwin play into the 2 PG spot and as Jennings fills in as the starter while Collison is suspended. Jennings, as a starter, could easily be a 12PPG and 7 or 8 Assists per game guy. Good luck if you think you will get that from Temple. It isn't worth my time to even talk about Tolliver.

Hard to argue with hyperbole

 

[KingsFan80]

Hard to argue with hyperbole

You honestly think the team I listed is worse than our team now?

 

[sdballer]

You honestly think the team I listed is worse than our team now?

I value defense and versatility so I do think it's a bit better. What I feel confident in is that the current team isn't significantly worse than what you propose.

 

[peacelate]

Allen Crabbe right now is a one-dimensional player. Can't create for himself or his teammates and is only average on defense. You don't overpay now even though the cap is going up next year because the FA class is much better next year.

 

[funkykingston]

If I could pick my way, this is what I think would have been the best for us, again just my opinion:

PG - Collison, Jennings (1 year - $5 mil), Wade Baldwin
SG - Crabbe ($16 mil), McLemore, Richardson
SF - Gay, Omri, Matt Barnes ($6 mil)
PF - WCS, Skal
C - Cousins, Koufos

Use the remaining $5 mil to re-sign Acy. At some point, if you need another C, trade McLemore for one and move Richardson into a larger role. This, my friends, is a winning team in the NBA.

This is an honest question - you think Crabbe instead of Afflalo and signing Brandon Jennings as a backup PG is the difference between the Kings being a winning team and a losing team?

Crabbe is longer and a slightly better shooter, especially off the catch (both are 39% from three for their careers) but Afflalo is a slightly better rebounder, passer and defender, even with his decline. He's also a better isolation scorer who can better create his own shot when needed.

The big advantage Crabbe has is his age and the potential to keep improving while Affalo is approaching his decline. But it's arguable which guy is better right now. So I don't agree that Crabbe is 10 times better or that he's the difference between winning and losing. He was the SG I wanted because I like the idea of spot shooters around Boogie and because Crabbe could be a long term SG. He's still a risk because he's only produced significantly for one year. He scored 10 ppg on good shooting numbers this year but last year (his 2nd in the NBA) he scored 3 ppg in a very minor role.

I also liked Baldwin as a longterm prospect who could eventually become a 3&D PG with the length to switch onto wings. I never expected him to be a big contributor this year.

So while I shared the hope that the Kings would draft Baldwin & sign Crabbe I really can't see how those two minor changes take the Kings from losers to winners in your eyes.

 

[KingsFan80]

I value defense and versatility so I do think it's a bit better. What I feel confident in is that the current team isn't significantly worse than what you propose.

We will see....We lost Rondo and replaced him with Garrett Temple. We replaced Marco with Affalo and Richardson. I do like Richardson but he will be very Green at first. We replaced Acy with Tolliver? Wash. We added a project Center and have no backup point guard. Not sure how we are that much better

 

[dude12]

Something is fishy here.

 

[KingsFan80]

This is an honest question - you think Crabbe instead of Afflalo and signing Brandon Jennings as a backup PG is the difference between the Kings being a winning team and a losing team?

Crabbe is longer and a slightly better shooter, especially off the catch (both are 39% from three for their careers) but Afflalo is a slightly better rebounder, passer and defender, even with his decline. He's also a better isolation scorer who can better create his own shot when needed.

The big advantage Crabbe has is his age and the potential to keep improving while Affalo is approaching his decline. But it's arguable which guy is better right now. So I don't agree that Crabbe is 10 times better or that he's the difference between winning and losing. He was the SG I wanted because I like the idea of spot shooters around Boogie and because Crabbe could be a long term SG. He's still a risk because he's only produced significantly for one year. He scored 10 ppg on good shooting numbers this year but last year (his 2nd in the NBA) he scored 3 ppg in a very minor role.

I also liked Baldwin as a longterm prospect who could eventually become a 3&D PG with the length to switch onto wings. I never expected him to be a big contributor this year.

So while I shared the hope that the Kings would draft Baldwin & sign Crabbe I really can't see how those two minor changes take the Kings from losers to winners in your eyes.

Yes I do think the difference of having Crabbe and Jennings is a big difference. What are we going to do while Collison is out? Start Temple? LOL....Tolliver will not do anything either way. Affalo will get hurt at some point and not play the whole season, Crabbe, based on probability, would more than likely stay healthy all year

 

[KingsFan80]

Something is fishy here.

So I cannot state my opinion? All I said is I felt that roster would be better for us. Geeez so I don't worship Vlade that makes me fishy?

 

[peacelate]

Yes I do think the difference of having Crabbe and Jennings is a big difference. What are we going to do while Collison is out? Start Temple? LOL....Tolliver will not do anything either way. Affalo will get hurt at some point and not play the whole season, Crabbe, based on probability, would more than likely stay healthy all year

Jennings is coming off an Achillies tear. He may not be the player he once was.

 

[KingsFan80]

Jennings is coming off an Achillies tear. He may not be the player he once was.

Fair point

 

[funkykingston]

Joerger said today that they still needed help at PG. They could sign Cousins or an I drafted free agent but I doubt it. My guess is they are working the phones for a trade with a vet signing being Plan B if a trade doesn't materialize.

And again. If Joerger's goal (as he stated again yesterday) is to create a defensive team, why would signing a PG who is a terrible defender coming off a major injury make sense?

I get that you hate Vlade's moves. I disagree but I get it. But you're talking about very minor changes (swapping one average SG for another, a backup PG who is still decent to good offensively but poor defensively and a rookie as the 3rd string PG) making a huge difference. That doesn't make sense to me.

Edit: And Afflalo has missed an average of 10 games a year. That's about average. And the last two years he's missed 4 and 11. I'm not sure why you think he's injury prone. Crabbe was healthy last year but his first two years he missed quite a few games.

 

[Jkbiker]

We will see....We lost Rondo and replaced him with Garrett Temple. We replaced Marco with Affalo and Richardson. I do like Richardson but he will be very Green at first. We replaced Acy with Tolliver? Wash. We added a project Center and have no backup point guard. Not sure how we are that much better

We lost Rondo not to sign Garrett, We lost Rondo because we didn't want him long-term as a non-shooter , non-defender for 15 yrs X4yrs and in Decline.
Collison was a starter year before, we basically had two starters last year and played them together? How did that work? We still have a starter and more Cap space. We replaced a backup Belli who had a crap year, blasted his own team with a Starter Afflalo who can defend for 1-2 years did not tie us down for 4 years at 17Mil, We could not afford Ryno for 20 Mil, but got a stretch 4 again did not tie us down, only 1 year and a buyout, We added a 18 yr old with tons of potentialand can trade Kosta and/or Ben for a better backup PG than Garrett (Who can also backup 2,3 and a wing defender) We Added way better defensive players and got a defensive coach. I can really see how Vlade and DJ are going to really Improve the team. We just need that last trade - Backup Big/Sg for a Backup PG

 

[John Galt]

y'all ripping the PG position I don't get it. Collison ran the point for one of the most effective starting lineups in the league - with worse guys around him. Everybody sleeping on him big time. We just could use somebody good to spell him. I don't see how the position grades out to a "D".